good ideas about sharp knives

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 11:50 AM

It looks as if the Boye knives have changed dramatically since I was collecting them. He used to specialize in fine cutlery and belt knives ornamented with very good low relief etching. Too bad. For example, I have a cleaver decorated with a 3 x 5 inch etching of a mountain lion standing on a tree limb. Beautiful work. He wouldn't tell me how he got etching to produce an effect almost like engraving.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 12:48 PM

Right thanks everybody! Yorkshire Yankee has sorted me out a nice set of knives and they do work.. Thanks to everybody.

I was a supply teacher once, that story about the Davy Crocket chap was very nice .... god I would have love to wandered round threatening the little buggers with a machete or a ray gun.

Thanks to you all for sorting out this problem.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Hollowfox
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:45 PM

Repaire, I think I'm in love with your brother. He can sharpen blades that well, and shut up a lippy kid during a school visit?!? classy! By the way, why do you store your blades outside of their sheaths? Mary (the Bloodthirsty, er, knife-loving Librarian)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 03:57 PM

Knives - the bane of my existence when Dad's insomnia led to night time infomercials. I got Ginzus and knives that cut cans and knives with pretty handles and knives in blocks...you get the idea. Not one of them cuts worth a damn.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:11 PM

I store the knives outside the sheaths because the chemicals used to process leather can cause the blades to discolor, the edges to dull (from oxidation, more commonly called 'rust'), and even cause pitting.

This is with a couple of exceptions. If I kept my Buck General outside the sheath the poor thing would think it had been exiled or worse. (No, I don't normally buy huge knives. I bought this one back in 1968 to kill people. Really. Our National Guard unit had been activated and was going off to Vietnam and my brother Tony and I decided we really needed a good knife "just in case". I paid US $35.00 for it back then....)

The second one I keep in a sheath is my "Air Force Survival Knife," a gift from some veterans I'd worked with. It has a Parkerized blade, so I don't feel bad about it.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Hollowfox
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:36 PM

Thanks, Darlin'. I'll shift my blades out when I get home from work tonight.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 04:45 PM

mack/misophist:
I boght David Boye's book when it first came out way back and that's why I remember his name. But I never got any of his pretty knives, and now I can't. Too bad.

I suspect the etching is done in stages: the deepest background first, second deepest and the deepest (again) next, and so on.

And I'm ashamed to admit I all too often leave knives in the sheath. It's really gross if there's brass in contact wikth the leather.

clint

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 05:53 PM

Many people seem to labour under the misapprehension that "Sabatier" is a brand of knife, probably because most Sabatier knives have "Sabatier" stamped on the blade.

It isn't and never was.

Sabatier is a style of knife developed by the French chef Sabatier, and has always been manufactured by many different makers.

Just like many different manufacturers other than CF Martin make "Dreadnought" guitars.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: LilyFestre
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 06:01 PM

Personally, I like Rada knives. They are inexpensive, easily sharpened, all metal so no worry of stuff growing in the wood. I also like (and used to sell) Cutco knives. The tang goes all the way to the bottom of the handle of the knife, good edge, incredibly long lasting....a bit more on the expensive side though.

Michelle

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Blowzabella
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 07:43 PM

I have a pattern-welded knife that a blacksmith friend made me as a wedding present (I know, I know, I have strange friends...) - anyway, my question is - I keep it oiled and in a sheath lined with sheepskin - will it be ok? It is made of mild steel I think - or possibly iron with a mild steel edge to it. (Reconstruction of an Anglo-Saxon artefct)
(Another wedding present was a reproduction of an Anglo Saxon cremation urn)
(Do you think there is a thread in this - what odd wedding presents did you get?)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 08:08 PM

ever since I took a chinese cooking course years ago, I prefer my Chinese cooking knife. Kind of like a cleaver
(Its well balanced as you can crush garlic with it (using the flat side), chop it and then slide it under to pick it up) Its great for chopping vegetables for a stirfry (which are actually steamed anyway
not fried, if done right)

theres a different cutting action for meat and chopping vegetables,
it really is the only knife I use for most of my cooking.
(it wouldnt be great for cutting bread though)

dont know what brand it is, bought it in Chinatown. It wasnt very expensive.
and havent had to sharpen it for years, but its about time.

I do believe though, that you are most likely to cut yourself with dull knife.

Yeah I dont buy that stuff about wooden boards either. I use both
but prefer wood.
(maybe, but then look at what the medical community in North America believed about breast feeding in the 50s and 60s)


petr

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:18 AM

Blowzabella,

Most ancient scabbards were of wood. Magnolia works well. Take 2 thin planks, cut matching areas for the blade, glue them together, then shape the outside. Not as easy as it sounds but not all that hard. Japanese blades have a special fitting that makes an almost water tight seal when the blade is sheathed. Personally, I think your wedding present will survive just fine.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:23 AM

We've had mostly discussion of "brands" here, but little comment about the particular styles people like. I do have one of those "Japanese" (probably about like the "Chinese" that petr mentioned) cooking knives, and use it quite a lot. I got mine from a little "generic oriental" shop in Seattle quite a few years ago. Mine is marked "Pilot - Sakei Japan" and my recollection is that I paid about $20 (US) for it, maybe 15 years ago. I've tried a couple of cheaper similar ones, but wasn't much pleased with them.

It's pretty much standard to have one good "butcher knife" about 8 or 10 inches long. This one has a slightly curved cutting edge, about 1.5 inches deep at the "fat" end, and should have a thick enough backbone to "spread" the meat for thick cuts. If there's one knife in your "kit" that it's worth spending a little extra on, this would probably be "the one." My current one is a KC Cutlery, although I have a Trident/Wusthoff in backup. A good one will probably run around $30 - $40 (US) in my local shops, although you can go close to $200 for some of the "exotic" ones. My recollection is that the Trident had a "list price" of about $135, but of course you don't pay list for them.

Less used, perhaps, but handy is a "slicer." Some people call it the "ham knife," and it gets used mostly for slicing thin slabs off the Christmas ham or turkey. Straight edge, usually 8 to 10 inches long, and about 3/4 inch deep blade. Because it's often used in front of the guests, many people opt for a "pretty" one, and as long as it holds a decent edge I wouldn't fuss too much about having a particularly expensive one. The "Waverly Edge" (scalloped) is common here, and is probably ok, given the limited use by most people.

Every cook needs at least one "French Chef." I personally prefer a shorter one, about 8 inch, but 10 inch and larger are popular. Most of the "class" ones are a fairly heavy blade. Some people prefer something a little lighter. While the bigger ones are "impressive," your choice should depend on how large a workspace you have. For most home kitchens the larger ones are a little too much. This is one you have to try it out to find what suits you. I use mostly my KC here too. It - or the "Chinese" - are what you use for mincing and dicing.

Many "sets" include a Cleaver, but for home use I find they mostly just sit in the block. It's usually better to "find the joint" and cut it with a knife than to "hack through" - at least for the stuff you're likely to deal with unless you're starting with "live meat on the hoof."

At least one decent "Boning Knife" is a good addition. This one should have a fairly "slim" blade, but not too flexible. It's the one for getting the last bit of meat off the turkey carcass, and for general purpose with smaller jobs that don't quite need the butcher knife. About a 7 inch long blade is pretty typical.

The only "serrated blade" I use, only loosely called a knife, is the "Bread Slicer." With the hard crusts "She" bakes, you do need a little "tooth" to get through the crust without crushing the loaf. I use a $9 one that lives in the bread box (so the real knives won't be offended).

Smaller utility knives are generally cheap enough that you can try out a few and settle on what suits you. Paring knives, etc come in remarkable variety, but a few reasonably good 3 inch paring knives, a "hook blade" parer or two if you like them, and perhaps a couple of slightly larger "utility" kind should equip most people for doing what needs to be done in the kitchen.

In the "utility" group, some may want a "Filet knife," but for most that one belongs with the fishing tackle. It looks similar to the boning knife, but has a very flexible blade, for "following the skin" when you filet your fish. (Often with an assymetrical edge, too.) Not needed by most people in the kitchen, but suit yourself.

I use a couple of "utility knives" that are converted from "steak knives" of the sort you see in some "class" steakhouses. The came with serrated blades, large handles, 6 inch or so long x about 1.3 deep blades, and with the "teeth" ground off they make a very nice utility knife - for about $3 (US) each. With the teeth left on, I'd consider them a "throw-away." Very handy, after conversion, for camp cooking, since they are about right to replace the paring knife and a larger utility size almost up to butcher knife scale.

Of course, everyone should have - and learn to use - a good "Steel."

And no "gentleman" is properly dressed without a serviceable pocket knife.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 09:39 AM

Good selection, JiK. We also have a very good carving set with an excellent blade and meat fork we use for carving at the table (on those increasingly rare occassions when we do that).

I'd also add a servicable meat fork. It's not a knife, but it can certainly make using a knife safer and easier. Tongs are also an excellent idea from many angles -- I have several pairs.

We eat a bit of salmon, and a fillet knife is just the ticket for taking off skin.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 11:20 AM

The "fork" subject is one open a bit to "deviant preferences." Even with the best of "carving forks," without a good work surface you're often likely to use the fork to propel your turkey into the lap of the guest of honor. The typical "platter" is not an ideal surface. If you're likely to be carving for guests at the table, I'd recommend that the carving fork be accompanied by a "table board," preferably of generous size, with a large drip channel all around, and I wouldn't object to a couple of little "anti-skid spikes" in the center area. The typical "ritual carving" is a "made for embarrassment" situation. Too small a space, usually standing in a awkward position, too much nearby clutter, - but with practice it can be a noble thing.

Since I rarely "carve" at the table, I usually just "grab hold" as appropriate on the big meat board. For the squeamish, or with guests who insist on watching, you can don a surgical glove (or a baggie). If you cut raw meat there, you should of course carefully clean and sanitize the board, and/or lay a clean smaller board on top before carving. Nearly all meat should be "rested" after it comes out of the oven (or pot) enough that it shouldn't be too uncomfortable to "lay hands on it." It will slice much more cleanly once the temperature has settled.

I would have included a good "gravy fork" as a needed accessory, but here they are impossible to find except in antique stores. Often called a "granny fork" this is the small fork about the same size as a dinner fork, but with thin, flexible tines, and ideally a wooden handle. Useful for turning bacon in the skillet, and larger meats if you're careful. If you can find one sufficiently flexible, they're what you stir the "sop" with in the skillet; but you need to be able to flatted the tines against the bottom of the skillet to scrape the crumbs loose. Serious research indicates that the last such (in name only) item imported into the US was before 1981, and that was an abominable piece of sh*t designed by a Chinaman who had never seen anyone eat with a fork, much less cook with one. Calling a "granny fork" doesn't make it useful. The last couple prior to that were only "marginally usable," and as best I can determine there have been only four styles made or imported here in the past 40 or 50 years, ONE of which was not too bad. I use a couple I picked up at the antique mall. They run $10 or more in my area if only "badly worn," and more if they're in fairly good shape.

Some people like to keep a pair of "kitchen shears" handy. If you deal with a lot of shellfish they can probably be useful. I keep a clean pair of ordinary scissors for opening stubborn packages, but find the use of shears on most meat unnecessary. You can generally do a better job of separating things with your good knife, if you look for the right place to cut, than by attacking with shears.

And the etiquette books say you must eat your meat with a fork if it has bones that are cut. You can use your fingers (chicken, etc.) if the meat has all "uncut bones." Using shears or a cleaver on "finger food" might embarrass the guests by breaking something. (But I do wonder how you apply that rule to fish.) :-)

Once the basics are at hand, there are any number of "special" tools. Maybe we'll get some offerings there as well.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 12:55 PM

My neice asked to get her for last Christmas, one of those knives that rock around and you cut up herbs with. That seemed expensive - about £25 for what it was. is there any other use for them?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:39 PM

Actually, I have a couple of those "rocker knives." I would think that £25 is a bit much. I got one when it was on sale for $3.49 (US) at Walmart, just out of curiosity. I liked it enough to go back and pay the "regular" $9.95 for one for the camper, although I wouldn't have been $10 worth of curious if the first one hadn't been on sale.

It works nicely for mincing things very finely, and doesn't seem to kick stuff around quite as much as using a Chef knife (or the Chinese variety we mentioned above) so you can mince small amounts of stuff on a smaller board. It doesn't work well if your "starting stuff" makes a pile much over about a half inch deep, but I'd think it would work nicely for herbs, especially the "leafy stuff."

The ones like I got come with a little "storage stand" that's adequate ONLY if you can put it somewhere "out of the traffic." I'd recommend against trying to keep one in a drawer with other stuff - as they'll likely eat each other up. I made a "full blade" block that works as a stand when you take the blade out, for the camper. In the block, I feel safe enough putting it in a drawer. Loose, it would be hazardous, since the odd shape makes it "stick up" where you don't expect it.

One of those special purpose gadget things, for special purposes.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 01:48 PM

I haven't mentioned my ulu, probably because I simply use it. I assume that you mean that when you talk about a rocking knive.

The same rules regarding sharpness and quality apply. Mine happens to be a traditional one, made from a old circular saw blade (you can even more trad ones made from stone, etc. but I'd only use such a thing for decoration). Keep it in the holder it comes with, treat it as any good knife.

Frankly, I wouldn't like to be without it. Learn to use it well and you'll like it very much.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Dec 04 - 04:50 PM

Rapair -

The ulu is pretty much the same thing as the ones I've got, except for the solid handle. The knockoff at Wally world has a flattened "ring" handle so you can stick your fingers through. One of the larger ones might be more useful for some of the other tasks the ulu site mentions. I generally prefer one of my more conventional knives, but that's more from having good ones I've learned to use for those things.

"She" has a taste for those canned rubber bands they call "mushroom pieces" at the supermarket. I find it just the thing for making the pieces small enough to extract what little flavor they have into the broth and to avoid having to chew on them. Possibly a hammer would work as well for that particular purpose, but...

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 08:43 AM

In that Japanese show "Iron Chef" - one challenger was knwon for the extra length of his chef knif - it was nearly as long as a sword - and he was definitely well skilled with it...

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Dave Swan
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 09:59 PM

Rapaire,

Right you are about the ulu. P.J. brought me one from her last trip, which was spent collecting songs on Baffin Island. A damn handy knife it is. According to the missus, these are carried in parka hoods and in pockets, using no sheath, and are wielded by children. Obviously used by people in tune with their tools. It's a great knife which takes only a a little trial and error to learn to sharpen. I've learned that it wants to be sharpened at a pretty flat angle. I use it frequently because it does so many things with so little effort.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Dec 04 - 10:26 PM

Which is why I forgot the mention it before -- to me, it's like the air: it just is.

I've heard that an Inuit woman skinned and butchered a seal with an ulu in less than four minutes. Now that's knowing how to use your tools!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 11:31 PM

Above, there was some discussion of D Boye's 'art' knives. It seems he sold that part of his business (and trained his successor) when he retired. I just learned that is's still going strong and can be found here.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 11:32 PM

Sorry, that url is francineetchings.com

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:01 AM

speaking of slashed wrists - well, palm of hand.

I get my knife sharpened at the local chef's equipment shop (ya should've seen the line of apprentice chefs & their teachers outside that little hole-in-the-wall shop recently!)

I've always considered that getting it back wrapped in newspaper after I take it in wedged inside a stapled envelope/pouch of thick cardboard a bit dangerous.

It was this time & I have a finger-length shallow cut across the base of my palm. It was all very exciting, with several gloops of blood which I treated with tea-tree oil & bandaids. Later I was chopping garlic & stabbed my finger, so more tea-tree oil & another bandaid.

The moral of the story is that I will take along my cardboard pouch the next time I collect it, tho a better moral might be might be that I keep it sharp so I don't stab myself.

ps. thanks Mudcatters & Guests for a lot of good info. I recently replaced one of my wooden boards with a plastic one, which has become very scratched. I'm glad I kept one wooden board, cos it seems cleaner & I just might consider getting rid of the plastic one cos hand-washing doesn't seem to clean those scratches.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Gurney
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 05:48 AM

I have an el-cheapo Chinese sheath knife that I use for a baitknife for fishing. It keeps an edge better than any other stainless-steel tool I've ever handled, and it is so sturdy that you can hammer it through a frozen Tuna. Sometimes you get lucky.

It's been said several times, you are LESS likely to cut yourself with a sharp knife. It's less likely to slip and you are more likely to be careful.

I use a cleaver for most kitchen cutting, after seeing oriental chefs using them. Good for cheese, particularly.

I can't see a problem with those self-sharpening kitchen knife sheaths. The knife doesn't last long, but it doesn't cost much either, and the sheath (Wiltshire) will last for several knives, and whilst I can sharpen tools, SWMBO can't.

If only I could persuade her to use a decent size of knife instead of that tiny 'vegetable' knife.....
Has anyone else observed that men use bigger knives than women?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Lady Hillary
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 09:50 AM

A little detail: Most serrated knives are right handed. If you use them left handed, you will find that the cut curves to the left. It's really just a control issue.

Also, a lot of cultures have variants on the ulu. The mezzaluna is usually used with a chopping bowl and is great for all sorts of foods that need to be chopped and diced.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 11:39 AM

Gurney –

The females around my house have had a similar preference for "teeny-weeny" knives, but have started using a more utilitarian size since I added to the collection recently.

My "currently popular" utility knife is made from the Steakhouse Knife shown about halfway down here. I found a few at $3 US each at a local supermarket, and bought a couple "to play with." When I found that once the serrated edge was removed they made a really nice kitchen utility knife, I went back and bought the rest of them (about 8 total). The cheap ones had unfinished wood handles, which are very comfortable to use. The same knife, but with a slick hard finish on the handles is still available at a couple of local hardware stores, at about $6 each, and I've converted a set of 6, but I don't really care for the slick finish. I've threatened to try stripping the finish, but laziness has prevented it.

The cheap ones are marked "Steak House, Premium Beef" on the blade, while the "fancy ones" are marked "Tramontina, High Carbon Stainless Steel." Blades appear to be identical, a little more polish on the high priced ones; and the necessary grinding to remove the teeth indicates they're almost "burn proof" under any reasonable amount of grinding. After the teeth are removed, a quick pass on a belt sander, about 80 or 120 grit, puts a nice utility edge on with no real need for additional finishing. (If you polish off the "tooth" left by the sandpaper, you have to make them a whole lot sharper to get about the same ease in cutting for most kitchen purposes. Either way works.)

**** Japanese Knife:

Mentioning it in the thread made me curious about my "Japanese knife," since I'd never bothered to find out exactly what to call it.

According to Wikipedia: Nakiri bochu it's a Japanese vegetable knife (Nakiri) with the "Tokyo" blade shape. Mine has an apparently "westernized" wooden handle much like common kitchen knives. Blade markings are "Pilot, Sakai Japan, Sharp Stainless" and the box says "Pilot/1500" but I haven't found that as a brand name (or as anything else) on the web.

Kikuichi Warikomi Gold Elite Vegetable Knife looks like mine except for the ferrule and a slightly more "round edged" handle, but at $110 list probably is a bit different. I paid about $18 or $20 (US) for mine, although it was about 15 years ago.

6.5-in. Nakiri Knife is close to my "Japanese knife." Differences are that mine has a wooden handle, slot and rivets, in place of the "simulated bamboo" shown, and cost me about $18 instead of the $30 shown here. Fifteen years may have inflated prices that much(?).

Kershaw 6616N Wasabi Nakiri Vegetable Knife 6.5-in. is also similar, but again has the round handle that I find less comfortable and is about 3x the price I paid.

Shape is about like the Messermeister Asian Precision Usuba Knife - 7 inch except their description of this knife as a "lightweight cleaver" implies a much thicker blade than the one I like. The "cleaver" reference isn't really consistent with the Wikipedia description of the Usuba, but it might not be too far off.

It appears, from my bit of poking around, that if one just asked for a "Japanese knife" they'd probably be offered something called a santoku knife. This name doesn't appear in Wikipedia's Japanese knife types, and I suspect a "made up for westerners" naming – sort of a "Japanese French Chef;" but all the popular ($$$) makers seem to offer one. It's a completely different style (for my purposes) than what I have. For most of the other Japanese styles, I'd probably prefer a common "western" type, but the very thin blade on the Nakiri does "do better" for chopping veggies and some other things.

**** Ulu:

An accidental find during my browsing was another source (maybe already mentioned?) for the Ulu, at Cove Cutlery: Ulu. I got mine at Walmart, about $10 (late at night when nobody would see me shopping there.)

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 11:08 AM

"good ideas about sharp knives"

Have an enemy? Give him a set of hefty sharp knives and an instruction book: "How to Juggle Like a Professional in THREE EASY LESSONS".

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 12:09 PM

Peace, your gift set left out one important item: The blindfold.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Peace
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 08:04 PM

LOL

I will remember that, thank you!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 11:08 PM

Very late to enter this thread, but over several years I have put together a small collection of old high carbon knives.
These darkly mottled ugly wooden-handled knives, often mis-shapen from use, can be sharpened on good novaculite (genuine Arkansas) stones, and from then on may be kept in good form by use of a steel.
Most went to the dump years ago, but sometimes one may be found in the poorest of junk shops. Cost- nothing to a dollar or so.

A few years ago, a Canadian company called Lee Valley found a small cache of unused knives of this kind in a warehouse in France. Only two sizes, but excellent! I wish I had bought more to give as presents.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 11:31 PM

Q -

One occasionally finds good old knives that aren't necessarily particularly high carbon. The "lesser" irons will take an edge, and even hold one pretty well, but they have a tendence to rust too rapidly, and the rust destroys the edge - along with the rest of the tool. An old knife that's been used, and had a lot of meat run across it, been washed for decades in lye soap with lots of fat in it, will eventually take on a "surface treatment" that's almost indestructible. Commercial and industrial surface treatments try to do it in a hurry; but the old tools that get it built up slowly can be remarkably usable and durable.

A specific instance where the "treatment" happens fairly often is with old barber equipment. Constantly bathed in "hair grease" they can form an almost indestructible skin, and if it's not taken off too agressively when sharpening they seem to "heal over" the sharpened edge so that they act like "stainless" (of a rather peculiar color) even though they're not particularly "high performance" metal.

It's a process a bit like the "cure" on granny's cast iron skillet, I suppose.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Kaleea
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 02:18 AM

My knife is a Klingon Bat'leth!

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Gurney
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 04:23 AM

Bat'leth? Is 'Bat' Klingon for tongue?

(No, no, of course, it is Simpson for 'Cheek.)

(I spend too much time in front of the TV.)

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 09:32 AM

Since we've finally gotten around to surface treatments, I'll drop one of my own. About 20 years ago, I accidently left one of my self-made knives aboard a friend's boat. About a year later, I discovered it in the galley sink, with a lot of surface rust. I cleaned it up, ending with a knife with a lot of surface pitting. For some reason, it no longer rusts and holds an edge like grim death.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Dani
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:34 AM

Great thread! True, no music, but very good information.

Two thoughts: It is absolutely true that dull knives are FAR more dangerous than sharp.

And,'plastic' cutting boards are easily re-surfaced when they are scratched up, and are thus as dangerous as any poorly cleaned wooden board. Depending upon the size and shape of the board, it may or may not be worth the cost, but any knife sharpening service ought to be able to do it for you.

Dani

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:32 AM

Wash ANY cutting board with hot water and soap after EACH use and every month or so wipe it down with chlorine bleach (rinse it off really well no matter what you use, of course).

Recently I was slicing round steak into thin strips, cutting at about a 60 degree angle. Yup, you sure can cut yourself with a sharp knife. And the next day I cut myself on the edge of a colleague's desk, too.

You can do a lot of things, but some of 'em ya gotta work at.

The size of the knife you use depends upon the job at hand. But sharp is always good.

Anyone know of a really good bread knife? A knife designed for cutting bread, not simply a long, serrated, blade?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: EBarnacle
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 04:34 PM

I've been using a Gustave Emil Ern 898 for the past 15 years. Bought it at a restaurant supply store on the Bowery in NYC. It is stainless. The tang has 3 rivets holding it into its wooden handle. It still looks like new.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 05:21 PM

JohninKansas, I have had guests look at the carbon knives I use, and tell me they are dangerous, not because of cuts, but because they look dirty- they must harbor bacteria! So much for most peoples' knowledge of knives.
I see lots of Gustave ... in use by butchers here.

Rapaire, I have two good bread knives, both about 8 inches long (any shorter and it is hard to cut diagonally). I just checked them to see what they are.
One is a cheaper Henckels ('Superfection') and the other is a Cook & Clark made in Sheffield, from a garage sale. I think it is a cheapie, but it works well. The size of the serration and number per inch are important; in a kitchen drawer I have some that are terrible although they were sold as bread knives.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 07:05 PM

Aussie Butcher Blocks used to made from chunks of Eucalyptus trunk - up to 4-5 feet or even larger in diameter. A few feet high on small legs that raised it above the sawdust floor. They were scraped and washed with bleach every day.

But these days "you can't get the wood you know"... :-)

The Eucalyptus oil is a disinfectant.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 11:17 AM

I carry a pocket knife, plastic handle, drab. It was issued by the Federal Armed forces as gift for the conscripts; got mine about 15 years ago. I keep it sharp with a small pocket diamond whetstone which I also carry with me everytime.

For my kitchen I use Japanese knives (wood handles), honing them regularly with oil. Small work, with lots of music, and wonderful success.

No problems with wood in the kitchen; a good cleaning after use works wonders. And I think a main problem with instabile health today is that people relay too much on hygiene. I have seen a lot of dirt and dust in the field (scouts and army) and am still going strong.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 01:01 PM

There is a fairly widely accepted notion that the great polio epidemic was the direct result of the spread of indoor plumbing. There were/are I believe(?) 4 variants of the "bug," 3 of which were mild but kept a general resistance prevalent, which prevented widespread infection by the one serious variant. "Improved" sanitation wiped out the "inoculant" varieties, leaving everyone susceptible to the paralytic one. Once the nasty one reached "critical mass" it spread virtually everywhere.

Less accepted, but still open for further research, is that the apparent surge in "asthmatic conditions" in the population may be the result of "overly fastidious" protection of small children from "dirty things" that could have innoculated them while their immmune systems are developing. Apparently valid research has indicated that asthma and similar "allergic problems" are much less common when there were pets in the household while the children were small; but it seems to have little effect beyond about age 2.

John

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 06:30 AM

where can I order chuppa knives from?

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 06:53 AM

Over the years I have owned several good quality knives used for a variety of hard work purposes. I kept them all very sharp with constant care. The best products that I have ever found and used, are the Eze-Lap Diamond Steels. http://worldwideknives.com/sharpeners/ezelap1.html

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 07:08 AM

Just want to say I still have the set of knives Yorkshire Yankee got for me and they are still working beautifully - quite as good as the knife I paid £30 for.

I owe her and her husband a big drink next time I see them.

feel free to present this as an IOU.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: EBarnacle
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 11:22 AM

I recently spoke with a cutler/blacksmith at a RenFaire. We got around to the nature of the edge on swords and knives. He was most emphatic that the last thing you want on any chopping or slashing tool is a highly sharpened is a supersharp edge as they are too vulnerable to dulling.

Taking this a little further, the same applies to a cleaver or chopper. The purpose of these tools is to be chopped into joints and other tough objects, such as the denser squash varieties. The angle of sharpening would be larger than for knives doing slicing as the primary job. My grandmother's chopping bowl, with ulu-type knife [known by our Italian neighbors as a mezzaluna] is still with me. It is not supeer sharp, as the movement is more of a vertical chop than a slicing movement. By the same token, don't let them actually get dull or chipped.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Nov 06 - 12:08 PM

Ah, but for slicing I want 'em sharp. Also, there's a difference in sharpness needed for combat and cooking and butchering.

I use my ulu with a rocking motion, and it does a wonderful job of slicing. A good design -- an elegant solution. Yes, it can also be used for chopping, but I don't use it that way by personal choice.

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 01:28 AM

Having read through the thread I thought I'd put in a couple of comments myself. Most of JohnInKansas' stuff is, in my experience 'spot on' except where I don't know the brands. Even so, here goes.

The very sharpest blades are not made of steel of any type. If you look at an edge through a microscope (as I do when dealing with residue analysis and use wear) you'll always find that the finest edge on a steel blade is serrated. This is why even scalpel blade cuts leave scars. Glass (not often used for kitchen knives, true) is about the only material that forms a blade with no serrations. Which is why microtome knives for electron microscopy sections are made of glass. Although not common, knapped blades from obsidian have been used for eye surgery and have been shown to leave less scarring than steel scalpel blades.

Such arcane considerations aside, commercial kitchens, domestic kitchens and wilderness butchering all impose different demands on both the tools and the users. I've used a cheap stainless cook's knife for the last 40 years now and its blade is still straight and sharp enough to effortlessly slice through overripe tomatoes at 1/8" intervals. My mother kept all knves in the same drawer; even the 'sharp' ones were blunt and I vowed, when I moved out, that I would keep my own knives sharp.

I don't use a dishwasher; each knife is washed separately, rinsed hot and then wiped separately and stored vertically in a thing I made to hang out of sight on the back of a cupboard door. I won't use anything other than a timber cutting board and I prefer my kids to acquire necessaery immunities the old fashioned way.

When I ran school camps I got myself a couple of heavier carbon steel knives for more frequent duties and later added them to the rack. But although they required more care and teaching they were still the goods.

When I was at Kakadu, I was involved with the local Aboriginal community, investigating bush tucker, some of which was feral buffalo. ANPWS ran a workshop on identifying TB as part of the BTec programme and the "pet meaters' (as the guys who hung out of chopper doors and shot buffalo for the pet meat trade were called) ran classes on how to use knives. Because the meat might be contaminated with TB, utensils had to be treated with bacteriocides between uses. So, instead of using oils on sharpening stones, they used bacteriocidal detergent and washed stones, knives and stells in buckets of the stuff.

This was where I learned that stones are used for sharpening while steels and strops (not used here) are used for reshaping (and thus retaining) the edge. All this was done out in the scrub so the techniques were different and interesting.

Gotta go, daughters are getting restless.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: good ideas about sharp knives
From: Rowan
Date: 10 Nov 06 - 02:16 AM

Now that one duty of the partental taxi service is out of the way I can put in some more.

My first sharp knife had a very ordinary handle but it worked; it was a plasticised type of timber but a bith short for me. That was the main reason I got the heavier knives when I started running camps; the handles were much better suited, with full tangs through the timber panels. The pet meaters, though, wouldn't countenance anything other than plastic handles, so there were no crevices into which the detergent couldn't get. These handles were textured so that, no matter how wet and slippery with blood & guts, water or detergent, your grip was secure.

My experience is that the knife can be of only reasonable quality but will do well if you care for it. A really good knife that is given only 'ordinary' care will go the way of all flesh very quickly. One trouble I have is getting good quality paring knives with good blades and handles. Most are so easily thrown out with the kitchen scraps (my ex) that many places in the bush don't stock them because, keeping the likelihood of such a fate in mind, the expense puts customers off and the retailers respond only to high demand and thus don't stock them. Bit of a circle actually.

Cheers, Rowan

Enough from me