Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: meself
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:24 PM

Of course, the repression had nothing to with the fact that the most powerful nation on earth, 90 miles away, was a declared enemy that kept busy with assassination plots, funding opposition, sponsoring an invasion .... And look around the region: Argentina, Chile, El Salvador, Mexico, etc. - things were so much better there through the latter decades of the 20th Century ....

Btw: proportion of population incarcerated: Cuba - 510 per 100,000; USA - 693 per 100,000 (not including juveniles; don't know re: Cuba).    In Cuba, according to Wiki, the last executions were in 2003. In the US, they were ... when?

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:40 PM

Well it would be nice to think you laid equal store by Human Rights Watch on Israel, Bobad. Moving swiftly on...

Well I started this thread, I am no apologist for Castro and I fully expected controversy. He was a very controversial figure, let's face it. He was intolerant of homosexuality, etc., and I'm not going to excuse him because he was "of his time" or by claiming that lots of other countries were just as bad, if not worse. He promised democracy and did not deliver. He imprisoned many political adversaries and was not averse to putting people to death. We can look at the vicissitudes of the time and of his situation, but we can't give him a clean bill of health on account of any of that.

But on the whole his people were behind him. He did do all the good things for Cuba that have been claimed in this thread. He did not exploit his country as a milch cow for his personal enrichment. He kept a huge, extremely aggressive bellicose near-neighbour at bay for fifty years, a neighbour that tried countless times to assassinate him.

When it comes to the Cold War and his part in the missile crisis, well this is how I see it. Read my lips: Cuba had no nuclear weapons. The US already had nuclear warheads within reach of Moscow, stationed in Turkey. The Bay of Pigs helped to drive Castro into the arms of the Soviets. He and Kruschev saw the positioning of Soviet missiles in Cuba as restoring a balance of power, insane though we see that concept now. I think that Cuba was exploited and that Castro hardly covered himself with glory, but the bombs were not his. I put the blame for that crisis as 75% Kennedy, 20% Kruschev and 5% Castro. Discuss!

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:41 PM

Well...You have to agree with Ake when he is right about something.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:48 PM

proportion of population incarcerated: Cuba - 510 per 100,000; USA - 693 per 100,000

"Nobody has a clue what is inside the jail system. It's not clear," - Carlos Ponce, director of Latin America programs at the watchdog group Freedom House.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 07:57 PM

"Khrushchev?" Dammit, was I spelling it wrong? I'll call him "Niki" from now on. Same as Mrs Steve, though she'd take a machete to the family jewels if I spelled it that way.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 09:57 PM

Fidel Castro stands in a long line of great socialist leaders who betrayed socialism. The list pretty well includes all of them, from Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin, to Mao Zedong and Chou En-lai, to Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, to Mengistu in Ethiopia. In the name of the beloved masses, these revolutionaries became the greatest mass murderers in history, responsible for genocide, famine, incalculable suffering, widespread torture and the deaths of tens of millions of workers for the crime of somehow displeasing their great leader.

Castro was not a mass murderer of the same order, though hundreds, maybe thousands, of opponents were executed in the early years. He also broke the hearts of the millions of Cubans who welcomed his revolution. In reality the dictator led a nation with an economy frozen in the 1950s, captive of the Soviet Union on which Castro foolishly made his tiny island dependent. Nor was it all the fault of the idiotic American boycott, as Castro apologists are quick to insist.

Scarcity became the overriding characteristic of Fidelismo, scarcity in both the quantity and quality of the life he provided. Dissent was not tolerated, political dissidents imprisoned, human rights a foreign intrusion, free speech counterrevolutionary, trade unions government servants, gays an insult to the revolution.

Fidel Castro was no friend of socialism

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: meself
Date: 28 Nov 16 - 10:57 PM

I've never been to Cuba; however, my father went for a vacation about twenty years ago. He was not a leftie, by any means - a skeptic is what he was. Now, I wish I could remember his exact words, but to paraphrase: "The Cubans don't feel oppressed. You can tell when the people feel oppressed - it's not like that in Cuba." No reason that should mean anything to you, I suppose, but it made an impression on me.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 02:21 AM

meself - 28 Nov 16 - 07:24 PM

"Btw: proportion of population incarcerated: Cuba - 510 per 100,000; USA - 693 per 100,000 (not including juveniles; don't know re: Cuba).    In Cuba, according to Wiki, the last executions were in 2003. In the US, they were ... when?"

On that subject and taking those figures at face value.

In Cuba how many of the 510 per 100,000 are political prisoners whose only crime has been to show dissent? In the USA how many of the 693 per 100,000 are political prisoners?

In Cuba which still retains the death penalty when was the last political prisoner executed? In the USA where the death penalty is retained by 31 States and by the Federal Government when was the last political prisoner executed for his/her political beliefs?

Fidel Castro, man of the people, another true "socialist" who died as a multi-millionaire.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 04:19 AM

"Fidel Castro stands in a long line of great socialist leaders who betrayed socialism. "
What a load of unqualified shit from one of the extremist right wingers on this form - how would you know the first thing about Socialism?
Lenin - he died when socialism hadn't even begun to be put into place in aRussia hat was still recovering from a Civil war supported by troops from 14 "free countries" - how the **** could he have betrayed something that he was foremost in fighting for.
Trotsy was driven into exile and eventually murdered because he refused to compromise his socialist beliefs.
Mao led China out of a primitive feudal system to become a leading industrial nation - - it took around half a century to achieve this economic miracle   
Chou En Lai
This is straight from the John Birch handbook of Political Science
The greates mass murderers in history were the Empire and post Empire Governments who exploited and massacred entire nations, caused two world wars, and continue exploit and oppress nations in pursuit of markets and oil.
You pricks talk about political oppression and ignore the fact that on the coast of "oppressed" Cuba, America that a concentration camp populated by "SUSPECTS" that have been illegally held in inhuman conditions without charge or trial for over a decade, chained and boirler-suited in cages, in temperatures that have topped 102 degrees,
"Democratic" America has carried out invasions and ongoing acts of terrorism and acts of torture and murder against states and orgnaisations who they disapprove of and believe to be a threat to their well-being.
When the Cuban revolution was in its infancy black people in the nearest American States were being arrested, beaten by the police and state forces, incarcerated, shot down and their places of worship burned to the ground FOR DEMANDING THE VOTE
Even today, blacks in America can be shot down in the street by the forces of law and order sometimes for protesting, but mostly for being black, whithout any consequences to their killers.
Black have been murdered by neighbourhood watch vigilantes and their killers have been allowed to walk free.
You people talk about prisons - go count the proportion of blacks to whites who are incarcerated, particularly those on Death Row.
For over a decade since the Companéros came to power, America waged war on an impoverished country that had already suffered a dozen years of warfare, pouring burning jellified petrol on the homes and fields of the farmers - and the people themselves, along with spraying their crops with carcinogenic chemicals that were even infecting and killing off the American pilots who flew the planes.
In the South of that country, American servicemen were being entertained with shows of Vietnamese women being fucked by animals - just like the good old days in Cuba.
America has instigated, financed, and even participated in the overthrow of legally elected governments - Greece and Chile being two examples.
It has supported and financed some of the greatest mass-murdering monsters on the planet - all done while pointing a finger at "undemocratic" Cuba.
Amarica hasantiquated gun-laws dating back centuries, which make many of its cities the most dangerous places on the planet....
And all of this has been supported by America's most faithful ally - Britain, actually or with uncritical silence.
The "free world" is now in the throes of a war with third world impoverished countries - its greed directly helped to cause those wars - that situation is likely to remain for the foreseeable future.
Where do you stop with this list - it is endless - and Cuba is "undemocratic and oppressive"
Amarica has just elected an openly Fascist President whose declared election promises will increase and accelerate the present situation - specifically targeting its own national the poor and immigrants
And women have been openly denigrated and their safety threatened - by the victorious President's own words - accessible pussy .
What few health measures its previous President managed to put into place, against massive opposition, are quite likely to be severely reduced and may disappear altogether, returning to the situation of a few years ago where, if you were poor and couldn't pay for medical care, you suffered and died - where the first thing that was checked when you were taken into hospital wasn't your pulse or your heart, but your wallet.
Cuba has suffered a over half-century blockade of trade and survived.
Its president has survived 638 ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS by or instigated by the CIA, overssen my * American Presidents.
For all his faults, I regret Castro's death just as much as I look forward with fear to the ongoing acts of war and terror carried out by the U.S. - particularly under its potential Fascist Dictator - who will, no doubt, have the full support of our elected representatives, as things stand at present.
What a legacy we have left to our children eh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:15 AM

"another true "socialist" who died as a multi-millionaire!"
Another unproven rumour based entirely on the word of a Cuban emigre, a forbmer employee of the Government who fled the country and was welcomed with open arms by "democratic" America whose magazne for billionaires publisghed it as Gospel - what else is he going to say and what else is the extreme right here going to pick up on and present as "fact"?
Waste of time to ask for verification of this from this particular quarter
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:44 AM

T'other link went awol
ASSASSINATION ATTEMPTS
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 08:36 AM

This is what happens to you in Cuba if you say a naughty thing about the now-mouldering tyrant.

Cuba Detains Dissident Artist for Celebrating Castro's Death

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 08:58 AM

Anybody celebrating the death of another human being is a sicko and needs mdical attention.
Artists in the public eye carry a responsibility not to incite hatred while the majority of a nation is in mourning.
I can remember a thread on this forum being closed because of people who were celebrating the death of Thatcher immediately following her death - in retrospect, that was probably the decent thing to do.
You made accusations earlier - I responded to them
I suppose you are now going to maintain your hit-and-run style of trollism and walk away from them, and snipe away mindlessly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 09:02 AM

This is what happens to you in The United States if you your CULTURE and RELIGION don't suit
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 09:09 AM

"Anybody celebrating the death of another human being is a sicko and needs mdical attention."

What about celebrating the deaths of 485 human beings as you said you were doing some months ago over there in Dublin?

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 10:10 AM

"Anybody celebrating the death of another human being is a sicko and needs mdical attention."

Right, and I'm sure you would say the same about those who celebrated the death of your heroes Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and all those other great leaders of the common people.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 10:20 AM

"What about celebrating the deaths of 485 human beings as you said you were doing some months ago over there in Dublin?"
You mean those who died while trying to overthrow an Empire of 8 centuries standing, who ,as you pointed out, weren't being celebrated, but commemorated.
The death of Castro will almost certainly lead to a national emergency.
The jackals in Florida have been announcing for years that when Castro dies, they will use the occasion to "return Cuba back to its rightful owners" and when they do, they well dismantle all the benefits all the Government hs introduced - "no more free health, no more free education, no more welfare for free-loaders, farms and property returned to the handful of families who owned nearly half the island - and presumably a return of the other half to the American companies who owned the rest....." - in other words, counter-revolution.
Cuba can't do much about the Florida scum, but they would be insane not to nip any support they might get back home - it is the responsibility of the Government not to let Cuba return to being another American puppet.
The more support they manage to quash, the batter, as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 02:30 PM

Bobad, please stop this trolling.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 02:48 PM

GSS, please explain what you consider to be my trolling. If you mean not contributing to the fawning hagiography of the man then you are out of line.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 03:03 PM

"GSS, please explain what you consider to be my trolling."
THat's what you do Bobad - hurl unqualified accusations - then run off then come beck later and hurl some more -- ad-infinitum
You put up a load of stuff arlies - it's been responded to - you don't acknowledge that and you'll come vback with more later.
It's not discussion, it is cowardly - it's trolling
Your favourite and most unitelligent trick is to call someone who disagrees with you an antisemite
AT NO TIME HAVE YOU EVER ATTEMPTED TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR YOUR ACCUSATIONS YO ARE A COWARDLY TROLL ANA INE EXAMPLE OF THE TERRORIST STATE YOU SUPPORT
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 03:17 PM

Hey Carroll, why don't you try using larger fonts and gaudier colours, then someone might bother reading your posts.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:20 PM

"Carroll"
Hey Bobad - thank you for confirming my description of you as a a nasty cowardly troll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 05:21 PM

Bobad, please stop this trolling.

Bubo??? That's all he does!! Deal with it.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:24 PM

That's all he does!!

Ah, ha, ha......that coming from Greg is too funny - I near pissed myself. I wonder how someone so lacking in self-awareness can even manage to wipe his ass after a shit.

Subject: RE: Obit: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 06:30 PM

"You mean those who died while trying to overthrow an Empire of 8 centuries standing, who ,as you pointed out, weren't being celebrated, but commemorated."

Ehmmmm No Jim those who died over the events of that week at the beginning of it had absolutely no idea of what they had been caught up in, the "volunteers" were lied to, the civilians died for no reason at all and the forces of the Crown died to maintain law and order.

"who ,as you pointed out, weren't being celebrated, but commemorated."

And IIRC you stated that both myself, the President of the Republic of Ireland and the Taoiseach were all in error on the commemoration thing and that those deaths and events were being celebrated. Now I suppose that I will be accused of lying and we will have your usual ding dong where it will become obvious to all that you once more are lying in your efforts to prove your point - just as you did on the "No Poppies" thread and on the recent "Syria" thread.

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This thread moved to personal attacks, so obviously, it had to be closed.

Continuation thread (click)