Nailing your colours to the mast...

Subject: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Johnny J
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 04:28 AM

On another forum, there is a discussion regarding the lack of involvement by musicians and singers in the forthcoming referendum on Scottish Independence.

I'm not particularly concerned about your views on the above matter or even any other specific topic. However, I don't particularly mind if you have any or wish to state them.
Goodness knows, I do on many an occasion. :-)

What interests me is why there often seems to be an expectation in many quarters that musicians and singers should declare their political beliefs and stance on all manner of things and use their music and performance opportunities to further these and/or encourage their audiences along the same lines.

This seems to be a particularly prevalent notion on the folk music scene and it's true there's always been a history of protest, political song, and debate involved.
However, the folk and traditional music scene is a very broad church indeed and much of what we play and sing has, at the very best, a very tenous link with politics and social issues. There are some songs and tunes, of course, which are very relevant to specific areas and matters but not necessarily to every issue.

Of course, many people on the folk scene are indeed very active in this field. We know and respect the work of such artists and enjoy their music and song while also respecting their right to voice their passionately held views on various matters. We may or may not always agree.... Sometimes, we may reappraise our views as a result while some others will "hang on their every word". Whatever the case, we *know* that this is part of the whole package and they do what "it says on the tin".

However, I don't believe that every musician or singer is required to voice his or her opinion on political matters no matter how significant they may appear to be. Also, while they may hold views privately or even express them publicly in other areas of their lives, it should not *necessarily* form part of their musical or performing career.

Just in case anyone gets me wrong, I have no objection to musicians or singers holding strong poliitical opinions and/or performing relevant songs or taking part in various projects. Nor, if they wish to make their opinions known at a gig etc. They have to make a considered decision on such matters and audiences will always respond accordingly depending on the circumstances.

What I don't agree with is the notion that musicians and performers should always be expected to "come out" and add their voices to every topical debate whether major or otherwise. That is surely their own decision.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 04:35 AM

My view as well.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 04:57 AM

Agree absolutely.

It must be a matter of personal choice. A singer/musician's job is to connect with and entertain his audience. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:11 AM

Drift ~~ Induced by the thread title, which I thought might have some allusion to what that phrase actually means ---

Hope I shall not be denounced to the PC Police for recalling its use in a Cambridge Footlights Revue I reviewed once in the late 1960s when the late Jonathan James-Moore was a student. He did a number about   nostalgia for the Great Days Of Empah in which a red-coated officer carolled ~~

"Nail your colours to the mast
The wogs have pinched the string!"

~M~

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 10:22 AM

historical note-
In the closing days of the American Revolution, when the English were leaving New York, an enterprising Brit nailed the Union Jack to the top of a flagpole in Battery Park, and greased the pole on his way down. General Washington was waiting in what is now Union Square, for the colors to come down. He had a long wait. There's still a statue of him, mounted, in the Square, reportedly commemorating the incident.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 10:24 AM

A view as to the origin of the expression here http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/nail-your-colours-to-the-mast.html

I firmly believe that a singer ought to use his or her art to promote the causes he supports. It is that that makes those who do more than Bob Monkhouse or Rolf Harris "the all round entertainer".

I am not wholly clear about WIll's position but I note the OP says "Just in case anyone gets me wrong, I have no objection to musicians or singers holding strong political opinions and/or performing relevant songs or taking part in various projects. Nor, if they wish to make their opinions known at a gig etc. They have to make a considered decision on such matters and audiences will always respond accordingly depending on the circumstances."

Don's position however appears to reduce the "entertainer" to a cipher providing the opiate of the masses (another expression the view of which might have changed over the years).   To restrict oneself to such an anodyne role seems to me to reduce not enhance an artist.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Will Fly
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:01 AM

I think what the OP is questioning is an assumption that a performer with political views is expected to promote those views as part of his/her public persona. As he says:

What I don't agree with is the notion that musicians and performers should always be expected to "come out" and add their voices to every topical debate whether major or otherwise. That is surely their own decision.

I would support JJ's view here. Just because someone is a well-known figure in one arena, or a performer, doesn't mean that they have a duty to make their personal views public on all and sundry to all and sundry. Some people are publicly "political" and others are not. I have all sorts of strong opinions on all kinds of topics, some of them very political, but I prefer to keep them separate from anything I do in public. How I debate them or promote them is my business.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: GUEST,999
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 11:17 AM

"What I don't agree with is the notion that musicians and performers should always be expected to "come out" and add their voices to every topical debate whether major or otherwise. That is surely their own decision."

It is, so don't dignify questions of that nature with a response.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 12:55 PM

To nail anything to the mast in a ship is bad luck. Remember the Pequod?

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 05:23 PM

No surrender, ye rats! I'll go down with me colors aloft.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: kendall
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 07:39 PM

"I've not yet begun to fight." (John Paul Jones)

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 07:56 PM

If you've got strong opinions on any matter of public debate that is almost inevitably be reflected in the songs you sing, and refrain from singing, and the way you sing them.

As soon as you put words with the music it can't be just entertainment, it's also communication.   Which of course can include lying communication.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: ollaimh
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 09:12 PM

most folk people, whether traditional or not, are bourgeoise nowsdays. i used to believe thier progressive political rants but when any issue arises that even slightly challenges them or theirs they revert to suporting the established standard whatever that may be.

english pull their wagones in a circle when any imperoial atrocity is mentioned. north american likewise about any native issue, and both over slavery and the fight against discrimination.

folkies are progressive untill it causes them the slightest bit of inconvience then forget it. anglo bourgeoise values dominate, except in a veryy few cases, and those who raise reall issues are attacked constantly.

the violence racism and imperialism of the uk and the usa is not dead, not one bit.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Feb 13 - 09:39 PM

I've tried to think of any revolution which didn't have a very strong 'bourgeois" element among those most active. I couldn't manage to do so. It's not much of an exaggeration to say that revolution is a bourgeois activity. As is "folk singing" most of the time.

That's just an observation at large. Nothing particularly to do with the theme of the thread.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 01:27 AM

Indeed, McGrath. Revolutions are led by bourgeois [Cromwell, Robespierre, Lenin, Castro, Che] who contrive to convince the masses that they would be better off by being tyrannised over by their own bourgeois selves than by the, usually hereditary, ruling classes currently in control. "Popular" is what revolution never is.

~M~

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 03:29 AM

""Don's position however appears to reduce the "entertainer" to a cipher providing the opiate of the masses (another expression the view of which might have changed over the years).   To restrict oneself to such an anodyne role seems to me to reduce not enhance an artist.""

My post allowed that some performers prefer not to force their political views on any audience regardless of whether the audience is interested or not.

Your stance seems to be that all should required to subscribe to the Richard Bridge philosophy of singing protest songs on all possible occasions, whatever the audience may be expecting, but of course only those songs which promote your own political views.

NO THANKS! you bore the arse off as many as you like. I prefer to leave them laughing.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: breezy
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 05:24 AM

Its the political and social comment,observations, contained within 'Folk' that lifts its songs to be entertainment and then somemore.

usually the songs scan and contain more substance and often well crafted.

as opposed to themass media drivvel that is fed to the masses purely for commercial gain while the vast majority blithely feast upon the offal offered and are brain dead to anything else.

They may 'hear' but do they 'listen'or do they turn away in fear ,turn a deaf ear!

Shit, just realised I thread-drifted I thought this was going to be about that man from the north=east as sung by Bob 'Reynard' Fox

Liked the flag pole tale ,is it true?

have a nice day one and all

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 10:49 AM

I remember in the sixties seeing the songwriter ,Jackson C Frank stop in the middle of one of his songs to ask the twenty or so people attending his gig at a London folk club (Bunjies I think) what the hell they had done to end the Biafran war , which was raging at the time . It was like an inquisition from the stage , his eyes glared around at the audience . After a long silence somebody spoke up to say that he had written a poem about the war. "A poem, hmm I guess that's something" Jackson said contemptuously before getting back into his set. Everybody in that audience would probably have been just as opposed to war as the singer was - perhaps as an American Jackson C Frank wouldn't have been aware of that . The whole incident was really more embarrassing than anything.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 10:56 AM

I wonder how much Jackson C. Frank's song contributed towards ending the Biafran war. My guess is that, in most cases, such 'political' singers are preaching to the converted.

Perhaps he should have sung his song outside 10 Downing Street (you could in those days), rather than in Bunjies, to give it some real impact.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 11:29 AM

You'd have thought so, but if you wanted to be as good as Bob Dylan in those days you had to take a sort of a Dylan-like attitude towards your audience .

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 11:37 AM

I am somewhat reminded of Dr Johnson on the role of the critic: "You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables."

So, you could be against the Biafran War without doing anything specific to stop it. It was not that fool Frank's audience's business to stop wars.

~M~

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: mayomick
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 12:30 PM

Dr Johnson spot on again , but it might be better to steer clear of him on this particular thread given the country involved .

At one level we should all be doing our best to try to stop all war and generally make the world a nicer place for everybody to live in. Can a singer on stage say much more than that ?

Do benefit gigs for whatever cause you believe in . If you have a song about the cause you favour , all very well and good ; but you shouldn't compromise your musical style to fit any political agenda .

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 02:20 PM

You left out Washington, Jefferson and co in there MtheGM.

But the fact that bourgeois involvement seems to be a universal element doesn't. In any way stop a revolution from being properly described as popular. Wnat determines that is whether it has widespread support and involvement from the wider population.

And 'democracy' need not enter into it. It's quite possible, even common, to have popular dictatorships. Even popular hereditary monarchies.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 13 - 05:16 PM

its great when we agree with the performers point of view, but let us take a hypothetical case, supposing a good singer and talented musician, suddenly started spouting fascist /racist views, what then, a lot of people would undoubtedly try and stop the performer?
   personally, i am only too happy to listen to pete seeger who was a great entertainer,and whose political opinions i agree with.
   some other performers whose political opinions i agree with, i find extremely tedious with their fanatical obsession with party politics, they are like record player with the needle stuck.
    the problem is the capitalist system and the idiot politicians who do not understand how the system works, we have a system here in ireland, two center right parties, the fat gut [fine gael] and the fat feckers, [fianna fail], they hate each other but both are the same thing. all the time people vote for these corrupt puppets, they are taking their eye off the ball, and not changing anything.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 03:36 AM

Mini Biography jackson c frank

The sad life of an influential folk singer began traumatically and ended in obscurity. Throughout his life Frank was haunted with misfortune and ignored tremendously. When he was eleven a furnace at Cleveland Hill elementary school in Cheektowaga, New York exploded, killing eighteen of his fellow classmates and leaving Frank with burns over his body. It was here while he was recovering from his injuries in a hospital, Charlie Casatelli, one of his school tutors gifted young Frank with his first guitar which sprung his passion for music.

Greenwich Village's coffeehouse folk scene in the early sixties drew Frank to New York. He met such names as John Kay, later of Steppenwolf. A large insurance settlement he received after he turned 21 enabled him to travel to London, and it was here he made his biggest impact.

He took up a flat with a then struggling folk singer Paul Simon in London, who later was impressed enough to produce ten of Frank's songs in a self-titled album. While Frank's voice was tremulously somber, the quality of the compositions was often impressive, with a reflective, melancholic touch that possibly influenced Simon himself and the likes of Sandy Denny and Nick Drake. Although his first album was well-received in the British folk community, he was unable to reproduce a similar quality of material and crippled any attempt for a follow-up. Combined with deepening depression, increasing stage fright, and an end to his insurance settlement that had allowed him to live freely, he decided a move back to the states in 1969, without releasing another album.

Frank took a slow slide into despair as his depression grew worse. Taking a bus to New York, he hoped to connect with Paul Simon again, but with little luck began sleeping on the streets. He became a ward of the state, and at times he was institutionalized. In 1977, with life looking better, Frank tried to release a new album, but was promptly dismissed by what publishers said was a lack of market appeal for his music. Again he fell into a deep depression, and the injuries from his childhood got much worse, once again he was hospitalized for both physical and medical reasons.

That is until Jim Abbott, a local Woodstock resident and sympathetic fan, rediscovered the aging singer from an inscription on an old album bearing his name in a record store. He successfully made contact with Frank and brought him out of a state housing project in the Bronx and into a senior center in Woodstock. He resumed songwriting and performing occasionally until his death on March 3, 1999.
   MGM before YOU dismiss Frank as a fool, you should perhaps read a little about his life, he was a good performer and a gifted song writer.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 03:42 AM

MGM said
So, you could be against the Biafran War without doing anything specific to stop it. It was not that fool Frank's audience's business to stop wars.
that reminds me of all the germans who stood by and did nothing when the jews were sent to the gas chambers, the heroes were those germans who did help the persecuted jews.
MGM you are jewish you should be ashamed of yourself for suggesting that political inertia is ok.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 04:16 AM

With respect, Dick, you're missing the point here. Which is that, just because someone is a performer - or a listener - why should their political/social opinions have to be placed before the public during the performing or listening experience.

I passionately support a couple of charities which I strongly believe in, but my music makes no mention of them - and why should it? And why should I expect my audiences to have the same priorities as me?

Michael may have very strong opinions on Jews and Jewishness - but you don't have the faintest idea how he may or may not support that Jewishness outside his music. We know him as a singer of songs - we don't know anything about his political inertia or lack of it. And it's an intrusion to suggest anything either way.

Public music-making and private opinions do not necessarily have to run in tandem.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:05 AM

Thanks for all the responses.

Most of you appear to concur with my views so far although there seems to be one or two with alternative opinions.

As I say, I am not concerned with performers having strong views on any matter or even expressing them directly or otherwise through their music. What concerns me is that there often seems to be an expectation that they should have views on certain subjects and that they are duty bound to express these at every opportunity.

After all, not all folk musicians are even singers although they could obviously help "worthy" causes in some other way, e.g. performing at benefit or fund raising gigs etc, or by offering support to singers.

As for the "germans standing by" analogy, I'd suggest that all the population of Germany at that time had an equal responsibility to speak out in whatever way they could although, understandably, many would have been reluctant to do so through fear.
So, the same applies to the rest of us today if we encounter anything about which we feel particularly strongly. It's not the job of musicians to articulate our views any more so than the rest of us. Unless they choose to do so, that is.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:07 AM

I am actually a convinced atheist who has been baptised and confirmed in the Church of England although Jewish by origin and family. This does not impact in any way on my musical tastes or performances. The fact that Mr Frank has had great misfortunes does not invalidate the fact that the remark of his quoted above was, to my mind, a very foolish one. There is all the difference in the world between standing out insofar as possible against abuses being committed in one's own country and community, and becoming one of those professional denouncers of abuses anywhere in the world. I repeat, it was not the trade of people living in Europe to be compelled to do anything specific to stop the war in Biafra, and it was a gross impertinence of this Franks fellow to try to make them feel guilty for not having done so; particularly, as Will so cogently observes, when his trade at that moment was to provide them with a musical experience for which they had paid, and for which he was being paid in his turn. In doing so, he grossly and irresponsibly abused his position of having the attention of an audience who were there for quite another purpose.

~M~

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 05:48 AM

It's the easiest thing in the world to pick out a bad example to generalise - it really does work both ways.
MacColl, Seeger and Critics Group members were forever being asked by clubs that booked them not to sing political songs because "we don't like that sort of stuff here" or "please don't bring instruments or sing contemporary songs because we're a traditional club".
Singing songs of any type is simply passing on personal emotions, or expressing opinions or experiences - more or less what the tradition was all about.
Expressing opinions in song is not in any way forcing them down the throat of an audience any more than declaring your enjoyment (or remembrance) of sex via a song is, though both might give offence in certain circumstances.
God knows, the revival has become anodyne enough through singers being made feel uncomfortable by singing certain types of song, without erecting yet another hurdle.
We lost some of our finest songs because of this sort of censorship.      
Enuff's enuff.
I've said it before, political songs are among the oldest we have; see Thomas Wright's 'Political Songs of England From the reign of John to Edward II' - they've been around a little too long to start complaining now - or maybe is not so much their political nature but rather, the politics they are expressing that's the problem!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:16 AM

I refer everyone above to the life and works of Bruce "Utah" Phillips.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:22 AM

Of course, it can be suggested that many performers feel reluctant to voice their opinions in song or otherwise because of type of scenario to which Jim has described... i.e. they may think that it might affect their career(s) in that they will receive fewer bookings or deter audiences in general. However, that's a decision for them and it depends how true they wish to be to themselves.

I don't particularly like the idea of "Singers only" clubs or "no instruments, please" scenarios but I'm not in favour of entirely instrumental arrangements either although I appreciate that these do occur. It's only natural that people with similar interests will gravitate towards each other but I prefer it to happen on a "de facto" basis.
There are obviously events primarily intended for the benefits of singers and others for musicians and all manner of things in between. However, most of us know whether we should be there or or not and what is usually expected. For example, we know that a singaround is not the same thing as a pipe band or a Strathspey and Reel Society!

Most folk clubs will generally tend to cater for their regulars and members whatever their tastes may be but there's not necessarily rules set down in stone.
Our own local folk club actually books a wide variety of acts ranging from unaccompanied singers, to topical singer songwriters, traditional(Some purely instrumental) bands, blues artists, guitar virtuosos etc. Just about every area at some stage or other. Fortunately, we are in a largish catchment area and it doesn't matter if we don't attract exactly the same audience each week. Some nights are obviously busier than others but we usually "break even" at the end of each year. However, there is a good argument that we could be "more focused", in which case we would encourage a more loyal and regular audience. However, this would mean narrowing our musical output.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:26 AM

Jim ~~ I don't think anyone is objecting to the singing of songs representative of one's opinions. But the denunciation of one's audience, in speech, in the middle of a gig, for not having done anything positive against what the singer regards as an undesirable political situation in a far part of the world, is not in any way comparable to that, SFAICS. I just can't begin to understand what this Frank person thought that Biafra had to do with his audience in any way whatsoever. The fact that he had had misfortunes in his life seems quite irrelevant to me ~~ and in Dick's odd attack on me for not knowing this, as if I should have had more respect for the idiotic opinions expressed if I had known, seems to me an example of the same sort of confused thinking as Frank's own on that occasion.

~M~

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 06:58 AM

Jim, I don't think we're talking about censorship of any kind here - quite the opposite: the assumption that folk singers should sing about current politics just because they're folk singers. Johnny quoted the "lack of involvement" of singers in the debate on Scottish independence - as though being Scots and being a singer implies that you must sing about it. I simply agree with his conclusions.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: MartinRyan
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:02 AM

Surely the real problem, around here, is that when people look for singers to "nail their colours to the mast" they actually mean "nail their colours to MY mast".

Regards

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:32 AM

exactly martin, that was my point in the previous post., the same people would deny a fascist to put their political point., If a fascist did make his point without using racist words,I would try and counter his argument and if that was not feasible I would quietly leave the audience,   
now MGM, quote
and in Dick's odd attack on me for not knowing this, as if I should have had more respect for the idiotic opinions expressed if I had known, seems to me an example of the same sort of confused thinking as Frank's own on that occasion.
this statement tells me a lot about you Michael, you do not seem to realise that people are the way that they are because of what has happened to them in their life, this is a an analysis that Marxists who you attempt to ridicule] often use and they are correct, does it not occur to you, you booby[ to use one of your own phrases] that Frank may have wanted to right injustice, because he had suffered injustice himself, people that come from privileged back grounds only occasionally become aware of others suffering and injustice, because they are sometimes unaware.
   Michael it is you that suffers from confused thinking, you are happy for people to sing songs that endorse your political sentiments that praise the establishment, but you do not like it when someone makes a political statement , that you do not like , you then call them idiotic. if someone does not like something a performer says , then the only answer if one feels strongly about it is is vote with your feet

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:39 AM

Peter Bellamy, was the son of a FASCIST who was interred during the second world war, that does not mean that Peter was a fascist, but his child hood and early environment and the things that happened to him in his life have to play a part in his character, and to some extent his opinions views etc etc, that was my point about Frank.
people are the way they are as a result of things that have happened to them, therefore to understand Jackson C fRANK , IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT HIS LIFE, do you understand this Michael or is that confusing for you.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 07:56 AM

"they may think that it might affect their career(s) in that they will receive fewer bookings"
You mean 'censorship for their own good - come ooooon!!
Whatever the Critics, MacColl and Seeger and others of that ilk might have been accused of, it certainly wasn't of not nailing their colours to the mast, if they were happy to let their political inclinations be known and to openly express them in song - it ends there; no club prepared to books them has any right to interfere with their choice of material - if you don't like what they do, don't book 'em - they are/were creative and interpretive artists, not juke boxes.
If the organisers feel that booking such people might harm the club – again, don't book 'em.
"But the denunciation of one's audience, in speech"
Totally agree - but have already pointed this out to be a not-very-common occurrence being used here to prove a generality.
I've only ever seen it happen once before; at a CND concert in Camden Town Hall, when a very well known American singer/songwriter harangued his audience for their opposition to nuclear weapons.
"I just can't begin to understand what this Frank person thought that Biafra had to do with his audience in any way whatsoever"
Can't you really, how odd! I'd have thought it was a subject that concerned every sentient human being and was well worthy of being brought to the attention of as many people as possible, an any shape or form.
Would your not understanding the expression of the horrors of war, Irish and Scottish independence, opposition to the enclosures (heard Harry Cox do that a lot), to the effect of class divisions on choosing suitors (Harry again), to conditions in the mines, mills, going to sea, public hangings, law breaking to feed starving families..... all subjects of songs?
Walter Pardon sang a number of family songs on the re-formation of the Agricultural Workers Union in East Anglia - were they no-go areas too?
Where do you stand on Guthrie songs like Tom Joad, or Plane Crash at Los Gatos, or Jesus Christ?
To what extent and to how far back does your "not understanding" go, I wonder; perhaps singing political songs should come with a cut-off point - no such songs to be sung more than 100 years old maybe?
I'm often curious how American Civil Rights songs feature in discussions like these - personally I never think of that period without remembering 'Back of the Bus' or 'Birmingham Sunday'. I'm quite sure these songs upset the rednecks who were still stringing up blacks, bombing churches and beating up would-be voters - again, all subjects of political songs.
I have heard the argument for restricting clubs to just traditional material, but I have always agreed totally with MacColl's argument that confining the revival to the past turns them into museums.
Unless that is what you wish to do, you have to accept any subject that concerns singers is fair game and to act otherwise is censorship.
Will:
"the assumption that folk singers should sing about current politics just because they're folk singers."
Something else I've very rarely encountered, certainly not since the 'flower power' days when 'peace' was probably the most meaningless word in the English language.
Lack of involvement for me is one of the common features of much singing today, irrespective of type of song, style rather than content seems to be very much the order of the day as far as I can see.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:00 AM

"no such songs to be sung more than 100 years old maybe?"
Sorry - should read ..... "unless they were more than 100 years old".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:10 AM

Of course the half-life of even a good topical song is fairly short.

Charley Noble, neither for or against topical songs

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 08:15 AM

To be attacked by MGM is similiar to being lambasted by a limp lettuce.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 09:50 AM

"the assumption that folk singers should sing about current politics just because they're folk singers."

My quote, but not my assumption either, Jim - just reiterating the point made by the OP.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 10:41 AM

"My quote, but not my assumption either, Jim"
Thanks Will,
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
"Of course the half-life of even a good topical song is fairly short."
You mean like Shoals of Herring, Manchester Rambler, Dirty Old Town, Freeborn Man, Willie McBride, So Long, It's Been Good To Know You, We Shall Overcome, Pastures of Plenty.......?
Have just re-started singing after thirty-odd years and am staggered at the interest shown by people who weren't even born when some of them were made - somebody asked me last night "what's a hippy or a beatnik?" and another asked me for the words of 'The Ballad of Sharpville' - very heartning.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:05 AM

The genocidal war on Biafra was very much a proper concern for people in Britain. THe British government was actively supporting the Nigerian regime in waging it, and doing its best to limit attempts to break the food blockade which caused the death of up to 2 million civilians.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: breezy
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:11 AM

Limp lettuce .


jack Crawford nailed the colours

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:12 AM

That last post of mine related to MtheGM's freeing to the war as "as an undesirable political situation in a far part of the world."   

Reminiscent of Neville Chamberlain's words in relation to Czechoslovakia - "a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing."

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 11:50 AM

Charlie - apologies, I realise that some of those songs were on my list were contemporary rather than topical
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 02:50 PM

You're a nice fellow, Dick, and a very good singer. But you have your off-moments like everybody, and you are talking a whole load of silliness on this one. Do you really think one cannot regard something a person says as misguided unless one knows his entire biography, medical history, lifelong traumas? Come off it, do. Your arguments here are of much the same validity as "Hitler always loved dogs". Can you really not see that?

Luvya just the same ~~

MtheLimpLettuce

Apologies for breach of Godwin's Law.

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Mysha
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM

Hi,

It would seem to me that ships that had their colours nailed to the mast (Hm, seems like a rather American expression, but I'll ask my colleagues.) would stand out more than the ships that silently floated away from the war zone, or simply played raft until the fighting stopped. The audience might get the impression that in pitched battle, it was normal behaviour for a captain to have his signals nailed to the mast, as the reports about Duncan and Nelson would be the most prominent, and their signals were nailed to the mast.

The audience might also get the impression that in a battle of social opinion a folk singer always takes part by singing songs. After all, they're likely to only see and hear a folk singer in the news when there's a demonstration or rally, and they will only know that it's a folks singer from the singing, and this will also be how the folk singer is reported as it makes for more attractive reports.

The other 99,99% of captains and folk singers probably don't, but that don't make good story, and so doesn't educate the people.


Still, as this is a music thread: Are there songs about the subject?

Bye
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: Nailing your colours to the mast...
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Mar 13 - 09:57 PM

Jim-

Not to worry. This topic is far more complex than my cryptic post.

No, I still feel that many topical songs have a very short half-life but others endure because they are well crafted songs as well. Those you mentioned certainly have endured. But 90% or more don't survive the event, which doesn't mean that they shouldn't have been sung but that the composers should not be surprised that their songs didn't endure.

Who sings "The Ballad of Sherman Wu" nowadays?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, composer of extinct topical songs