BS: How the US will finally lose its power?

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 08 May 03 - 05:46 PM

Well I do know that if the Canadians and the Germans make it to the stars with us, the place will be neatly kept. With the Brits we'll have well-tied cravats and excellent diction. And the Aussies will convert all the potable water to beer...

And the French won't know we left...

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 03 - 07:36 PM

Nor will they care... :-)

Don, I read that link. Great article, and right on the mark. If I was an American, I believe I'd become a Democrat on the strength of that article, and I never thought I'd say that!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: DougR
Date: 09 May 03 - 01:25 AM

Intersting commentary, Don, and totally unbiased too, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 03 - 09:38 AM

Today the NYT off-leads and the WP and LAT go inside with the defeat of some Senate Republicans in their efforts eliminate the 2005 sunset clause on sweeping new law-enforcement powers included 2001's Patriot Act. It was a brief victory for civil libertarians, however, as the Senate then went on to approve another expansion of federal surveillance powers--which the NYT calls the "lone-wolf" measure and the WP labels the "Moussaoui fix"--that would allow secret surveillance of suspects who are not thought to be members of terrorist organizations. Under the current law, the Feds must establish some link to a foreign terror group to request a secret warrant.

Big Brother's baby steps keep trundling.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:33 AM

Anyone who has an opinion on anything is biased, Doug. You want an unbiased opinion? Go and talk to Lincoln's statue, and see what he has to say.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,k
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:47 AM

Do you people not realize that those who are actually controlling things (ie. multinational corporations, etc) don't give a fuck about Democrat, Republican, Left wing, Right wing, Liberal, Conservative. All of this idealogical and political bickering is just a cheap dog and pony show to keep you all occupied while they gain more and more control. Bread and circuses folks.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:50 AM

To Guest k:

Right on!!

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 May 03 - 03:33 PM

Guest k, read the link I posted (twice). Unless you are dedicated to just sitting on your keister, all is not lost. . . yet.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 03 - 10:01 AM

The ruling elite (see bread and circus comments) are much more conservative than the general population, and so manipulate the system to their advantage. They are the only interest group, in the US or in any other country in the world, with the power, access, and wealth, to manipulate entire political systems to their advantage, whether they are doing it in Nigeria or Florida.

As NicoleC pointed out, Clinton was impeached not for what he did, but for who he was--a president who rose from the ranks of the American untouchable caste. He was not a Roosevelt, a Bush, a Kennedy, a Gore...

Carter was never successful as president for the same reason--he was a Washington outsider from humble beginnings.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Doug_Remley
Date: 10 May 03 - 05:33 PM

"Toto, do you see Kansas anywhere?"

Guests seem to appear uncomfortable with names allowing recollection of previous points, thus I am confused. How widespread IS the use of novels as reference materials, or, is it simply P.T. Barnum's old saw that hits the mark? At first-hand it was clear to anyone with leadership experience that Carter's failure (and maybe Clinton's, to an extent, but that was only through observation from afar) was due to very poor staff choices. Their presence in office without the family names mentioned becomes prima facie evidence of the fact.

As an aside, that was true of Daniel Ortega, as well. Though Socialism is a requirement for heavily agrarian economies in transit to healthier, mixed economies with good distribution infrastructure and modern education, denial of US support creates vacuums happily filled by neo-socialist/communist (no point in beating bushes) thugs. Often a good dog dies of its own worms and fleas. Guests, if it suits. That may be also why the US finally loses what power it has. They are called parasites. Not necessarily a generalized infection, but oddly, an infection of generalization and innuendo. Feelings as fact rather than fact affecting feeling.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 03 - 12:14 AM

Well, yes, GUEST (DG)...you are quite right. It is a dog and pony show to delude the masses, and the rich elite rule no matter who wins. Sad but true. The same was true when a small elite of royalty and nobles ran the roost a couple of centuries back.

On the other hand, there's no harm in trying to influence things through radicalizing the Democratic Party at this point...while making other preparations in case it doesn't yield any useful results.

What really needs to be done is to change the political $ySStem in the USA so that it is not totally dominated by the two traditional parties, but has proportional representation. I doubt that there is a dog's chance in hell that the people at the top will let that happen.

We have the same basic problem in Canada. A MINORITY vote can produce a majority government with absolute ease in this country...and the smaller players can end up with no representation at all. 60% of the voters can be opposed to a major policy...like "Free Trade" (ha, ha) and the 40% of voters in favour of it can end up voting their guys in anyway, because of the way party politics works here. It's ludicrous.

And it is anything but democratic.

It used to work to the benefit of the Federal Conservatives (in the 80's). Now it's working to the benefit of the Federal Liberals (because the Conservatives fractured into two parties which divides the Conservative vote so the Liberals always win).

Then we've got a supposedly socialist party (not very), which used to split the non-Conservative vote, but has lost a great deal of ground since the 80's.

It's a system that simply does not work in terms of actually representing the public in an effective manner. And that is all to the benefit of the ruling elite who do not WANT the public to have any real power.

It's even worse in the USA.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 11 May 03 - 12:44 AM

Well, in the humble origins class, you do have a haberdasher (Truman) a brace of WWII naval officers from poor backgrounds (Nixon and Johnson) and an actor (Reagan). It looks even up to me...

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,Guess who?
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 12:22 AM

Personally, I think the US will not lose its status as a superpower for another hundred years or so. They may have spikes and declines, but it will remain known as a superpower for a very long time to come due to it's gigantic cultural, economical, military, and governmental influence it has on the world. They make the old British empire look like wusses, and the Brits made the old Roman empire look like wusses. This is just a time of decline due to reactions of the events of 9/11 which was the reason that the American economy plumeted shortly after. I'll give the Americans 150 more years of superpower, followed by some 350 years as being a normal world power, followed by 500 years of being around as a nation, and maybe 1000 more years of being a civilization before it is finally assimilated into another civilization and/or nation. Unless, of course, the world ends within this time period. I get my predictions from history. I look at the Romans, Byzantines, Ottomans, Germans (Holy Roman Empire), Britain, and see that they held onto power for a very long time, and lasted for even longer. The Holy Roman Empire is no longer around today, but the Brits still are. Rome lasted for more than a thousand years, it's power for more than half of that. Sure the US may change, both landwise, and culturally wise, but I still believe it will hold onto power for some time to come.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 04:46 AM

The US losing power is not just a little local difficulty. When the top dog dies his place is taken by another, and usually that's after a fight with the other contenders.
The real question is, 'Who will take their place?' It is hard to look beyond Asia to find the most likely candidates, and if they impose their culture on us the way we imposed ours on them, then we're all in for a bit of a culture shock.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 07:51 AM

Claymore, you may stand in awe of our (Military) power, but just remember, "The smallest dog can piss on the biggest building."

Yesterday, I was watching the coverage in the Senate where they were debating the CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT BILL. Next week they are going to take up amending the constitution to forbid same sex marriages! At a time when we have just received word that Al Quada is planning a major attack right here in the USA, and Homeland Security is still not funded. The republicans control the House, the Senate, the White House and the Supreme Court, yet they blame the democrats for gridlock. Well, guess wjho I will blame when the dirty bomb gores off in NYC.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 10:05 AM

Somebody will forget to put the money in the meter.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 01:48 PM

Howard Stern will be elected President. That will be the beginning of the end.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 08:56 PM

It already started with Alfred E. Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 08:59 PM

"The Holy Roman Empire is no longer around"

It wasn't Holy, it wasn't Roman and it wasn't an Empire.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 09:54 PM

As John Wayne was wont to say, "That'll be the day, Pilgrim" (when the U.S "finally" loses it's power).

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,IMHO
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 05:29 PM

Regarding attacks in the US: I would worry about Indian Point Nuclear Power Facility. But then, I'm sure someone already is. Right? RIGHT??

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 04 - 07:14 PM

Doug, my friend, Marion Morrison never spoke a word that was not scripted, and he never served a day in the military. He was hardly a prophet.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 12:53 PM

Within the next generation or two, China will have the world's biggest economy. The US can do nothing about it, without cutting severely into the living standards of its own population. The American economy, as others have pointed out above, is a giant bubble that could burst at any time.

Meanwhile the US has discovered that for all its monstrous spending on "defence" (which embraces a huge spend on offensive capability) it has just found out that policing the world is not as easy as it had supposed. Right now it is struggling to make its writ run in a tiny part of one of the poorest nations on earth (Afghanistan) and in Iraq, which has been bombed to ruins by two wars.

For better or worse, the Romans introduced a degree of civilisation to the territories of their empire; likewise the British. The US, having destroyed Iraq, finds it has no capacity even to make good the damage it's done. Iraq now has less electricity than under the Saddam regime, and out of 2,300 construction projects identified and promised, 140 have been started. Bridges destroyed during the war have yet to be repaired, and water supply systems in the south of the country, similarly destroyed, are still not working. (Why it was necessary to destroy civilian water systems was never explained.)

Anyone who thinks so tenuous an empire could survive for centuries (even ignoring the fact that the empire is intent on destroying the global environment well within that timespan) is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Its days are numbered, and I just wish DougR could hang in long enough to count them down.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 01:16 PM

Without trying to upset my US friends, this is how it looks from my side of the pond.
America is a superpower, it calls the shots, and all should obey, and at the same time love them for it. But shock horror, some countries have the effrontery to argue, and to fight back. HEY! says the US it seems you don't like us, in fact nobody loves us, and after all we tried to do for them. Showing them how to run their country and all that.
Neither the US, the UK or anybody else is the world's policeman, it has fuck all to do with us how other people run their countries. And when it come to criticising how other folks do things, we disregard the mote in our own eyes. It looks like you/we are interfering, and that pisses people off, so that's why they get mad.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 01:34 PM

The truth never offends me, Giok.

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 03:22 PM

Giok: you sound much like a isolationist. I guess Kendall is one too. Not very realistic I think.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 04:40 PM

Doug, it only sounds like isolationism if you see two extreme ways of interacting nationally, think telling other people how to run their countries is the opposite of isolation, and see no middle ground whatsoever...oh, sorry. Forgot who I was talkin' to...

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 05:37 PM

Doug if you want to help people you ask them what they want, not tell them what you think they want. I'm not an isolationist, but we stand on very shaky ground when we criicise other peoples human rights record etc. I'm all for helping, but I'm dead against interfering.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: How the US will finally lose its power?
From: GUEST,IMHO
Date: 11 Jul 04 - 06:12 PM

The USA used to be a very respected country. Now, it is a very feared country. And her White House is filled with treason, greed, avarice and insanity. I once saw the USA as the light of hope for this world. Now, I no longer perceive it that way. It is in rut with its desire for more, more, more, and G-d alone knows where it will end. I think the day will come when even people like Doug can share the sense of disgust many former friends are beginning to feel. This is not an indictment of the American people. It is however a statement of opinion about the filthiest bastards ever to call the White House home. It is a House that no longer belongs to its owners.