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BS: The Republican Default Crises
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 11 - 02:50 PM Tax the filthy rich, no matter how squeaky clean they look. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Donuel Date: 29 Jul 11 - 03:12 PM The big lies FOX hopes everyone will believe are [THE BIG LIE} The PResident did not take control of the debt ceiling crises! AKA (His leading from behind is cowardly) and He never proposed a plan or budget) Well kids, it is illegal according to the Constitution for the President to pass legislation, be laws or budget. ONLY the House of Representatives and Senate may do that. However once a disaster happens, a President may take emergency actions to deal with the crises. To respond to a world wide default of the dollar, it would be a day late and a trillion dollars short. BIG LIE The President made this whole mess! Boehner announced on the floor of the Senate in January that they were going to use the Debt Ceiling issue to hold the President powerless to accept new sweeping changes. McConnel in the Senate announced on the Senate floor that the first duty of Republicans was to make the President fail at re election, no matter what they had to do. BIGGEST LIE OF ALL Cutting spending in the USA will create jobs. sorry children but the less money there is, the less spending there is and hiring anyone at that point, would be the last thing (the job creater) would do. however... The (job creator) is willing to hire Chinese and expand foriegn markets. No need to invest in a depressed American market, since no one is spending, no one is buying. PS Yesterday I said that Bachmann would at some point call Obama a dictator. She did today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 29 Jul 11 - 10:28 PM I'm loving all this... Repubs are going to get swept back out in 2012... What a stupid and suicidal strategy they have followed... Bye... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 29 Jul 11 - 10:49 PM The whole thing is a goat fuck .... democrats and republicans. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 29 Jul 11 - 10:55 PM Bye, Repubs... This was a terrible strategy on your part and like '96 is going to cost ya'll in 2012... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 30 Jul 11 - 01:29 AM This is an excerpt from another post..from me... ".....In regards to the Tea Party,..it won't matter anyway..as I said in another post dealing with the debt ceiling, what is going to come out of this, is the U.S., with all its 'two party compromises', will end up with the government handing over receivership of the debt to an 'international, globalist banking concern'....and everybody will go away 'happy'....and go away, with absolute rule, and control of our country, and under their rules. This IS and will be the result of the corruption of our 'representative' government. We have, for sometime now, had our 'representatives' not representing the 'will of the people'...but rather, acting as brokers, in regards to the 'laws' they back, and for what reason.....the highest bidder. The Tea Party rank and file is mostly comprised of regular folks who thought they had nowhere else to turn. The Kosh's merely cashed in, with their efforts to gain control of them. As it stands now, there is NO group truly representing the people.....and by the way, as a country, we have already collapsed....and have not been informed fully, as of yet! Just stay tuned, and watch...you'll see! Meanwhile, I'm sure many of those lagging behind, will still be pointing fingers, at one party or the other...as designed...to keep reality from being addressed! As it stands now, we are in a world of hurt, and the ONLY thing keeping it afloat, is whatever 'remnants' of 'hope' you can muster up!.....until it's used up!! You'll see!!!" GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:18 AM Repubs are going to get swept back out in 2012... You're getting way ahead of yourself, Bobert. Remember: Always bet on stupidity & you'll never lose yer money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: artbrooks Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:54 AM The Repubs. never expected the Cap, Cut and Balance Bill to go anywhere - maybe if they had they would have taken the time to construct a better piece of legislation. Its only purpose is to influence the 2012 election. The requirement that Congress sends a balanced budget constitutional amendment to the states for ratification allows them to point at anyone who votes against it as being opposed to a balanced budget, and the fact that it only raises the debt ceiling enough to get us to this time next year, guaranteeing a similar fight then, assures that anyone in their right mind will vote against it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: saulgoldie Date: 30 Jul 11 - 12:16 PM And from The Borowitz Report (we need all the laughs we can get to get through this!) Fox News Reports: Obama Starting to Wonder Why He Moved to U.S. President Nostalgic for Land of Birth, Fox Says WASHINGTON (The Borowitz Report) – According to the Fox News Channel, President Barack Obama is so weary of the debt ceiling stalemate in Congress that he is beginning to wonder why he moved to the United States in the first place. Fox News anchor Shepard Smith broke the story today, reporting that "sources close to the President say he's increasingly nostalgic for the land of his birth." "To someone like President Obama, this wrangling in Congress must seem very foreign," said Mr. Smith. "In Kenya, debt ceilings are raised automatically by the village elders, who then celebrate with a ceremonial feast of cabbage, mangoes and goat." While Mr. Smith stopped short of saying that Mr. Obama planed to leave Washington and return to his native Kenya, "his birth certificate does allow him to return at any time he sees fit." "As he sees Congress push the United States ever closer to default, who can blame Mr. Obama for longing for simpler times, roaming free on the savanna?" Mr. Smith reported. In other debt ceiling news, by unanimous vote the House of Representatives passed a bill raising Speaker of the House John Boehner's medication. As for the debt ceiling negotiations, they are "right on schedule," according to the ancient Mayans. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 04:07 PM I am almost at the point where a "default" might be the best option... It then allows Obama to choose what gets paid and not Congress which will have shot it wad and in doing so marginalized itself... Either that or Section 4 of the 14th amendment... This filibuster is the most immature legislative trick I think I can remember going back, oh, forever... And most of us have witnessed a lot of trickery in Congress over the last 4 decades... The minority does not deserve to be rewarded for trying to destroy the American economy... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Charley Noble Date: 30 Jul 11 - 07:53 PM GfS- Thanks for your review of increases in the debt ceiling and who was president at the time. Of course, the Republicans have little interest in such history if it doesn't fit into their theme and message. If their draconian plan is actually passed and signed into law, I hope they'll accept responsibility for the cuts they will be imposing, but I doubt it. They'll just claim that it was Obama and the spendthrift Democrats that spun us back into the ditch of recession. Leaping lizards!!! Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 07:59 PM You are right... 94 cents of every dollar that the Repubs now want to renig on were handed to Obama the day he took office... Almost half from George W Bush... How do you spell "dead beats"??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: pdq Date: 30 Jul 11 - 07:59 PM We have been in a Recession continously for the past three years! Obama has personally taken charge of spending $2 trillion dollars all of which went on the National Debt. The only thing he proved conclusively is the Keynesian Economics does not work! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:04 PM Charley Noble: "GfS-Thanks for your review of increases in the debt ceiling and who was president at the time....." You are VERY welcome! If you noted, after my post, one certain numbskull, didn't think 'numbers were important'????????? I wonder what he does when the guy at the music store tells him his favorite strings are now $19.95 a set....tell him, "Oh, you must have it wrong, give it to me free, I'm entitled to them..besides, numbers aren't important!" Anyway, I try to be on the side of the truth, no matter which way it falls!..Again, you're welcome! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Jack the Sailor Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:14 PM It doesn't work when half the "stimulus" id "tax cuts." Stimulus doesn't work when the money goes straight into the bank or investment in China. No where did Keynes say that you are supposed to stimulate the economy by building houses people can't afford and lying to investors. That is the cause of the recession. There is no fix for it any time soon. But an end to tax breaks would help. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Greg F. Date: 30 Jul 11 - 08:47 PM The only thing he proved conclusively is the Keynesian Economics does not work! Gotchs, PeeDee- and Reaganomics, a.k.a. voodoo economics, a.k.a. supply side economics does work, right? Jesus wept, man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:01 PM How can you be so misinformed, pdq??? First, the only ****annual**** budget deficit that is on Obama is 2010 which came in at $100B less than Bush's last on (2009)... 2009 annual budget deficit (Bush) = $1.4T 2010 annual budget deficit (Obama) + $1.3T Secondly, every leading economist said that the stimulus needed to be on the plus side of $1T... Some were recommending as much as $1.3T... All Obama could get from an obstructionists Repubs was $700B with $400B of them going into tax cuts... That's not exactly pure Keynesian... Heck it's not even KeynesianLite... It ended up being another failed "tax cut"... The other $300B went into shovel ready projects... Of course the right wing bloggers say that that $300B produced no jobs... That is what Hitler referred to as the BIG LIE... Drive down just about any US highway in America and you'll see bridges being rebuilt with that money.... Tell ya what, pdq... Take you a ride down US 29 thru Virginia and North Carolina and stop at any of those construction projects which are still being funded with the stimulus and stop on the side of the road and go run your theories to the construction workers who are got a pay check this week rather than an unemployment check... Yeah, do that and then come back and report what a failure Heynesian economics are... No, don't do that... Please do that!!! Economists said $1T plus... Repubs held it down to less than 1/3rd that... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:16 PM And, pdq, here's a few other realities: 1. Bush handed over an ***unfunded*** and active war in Iraq 2. Bush handed over an ***unfunded*** and active war in Afghanistan 3. Bush handed over over $1T in ***unfunded*** tax cuts 4. Bush handed over an economy on the brink of total collapse and worst since the Great Depression 5. Bush handed over a Congress with it's Republican members saying openly that their #1 goal was to get Obama defeated in 2012... Not the health of the country or jobs These are realities that ya'll on the right want to wall-paper over as if the rest of *US* listening to your ***BIG LIES*** have "moron" tattooed on out foreheads... Hey, we on the other side might have been born at night but it wasn't last night... Try some arguments based on reality and less on ***BIG LIES***, distortions, quotes from paid right winged bloggers, hate of Obama and then maybe we can have a discussion of policies based on reality and not right wing mythology... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: pdq Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:24 PM It seems that every fact I put out calls for half a dozen rebuttals. Why rebut a fact? OK, here is another fact to yell about: Fact: After the Great Stock Market Crash of of 1929, many advisors recomended that Hoover follow the ideas of a new hot shot economist from England. Hoover did. His name was Maynard Keynes. I don't feel like doing all the work for you, so just look up "pump priming" or "priming the pump". It started under Hoover and led to a full Depression, not just a recession. Then look up what FDR's Treasury Secretary had to say about the results. His name was Morgantgau. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:27 PM Maybe because they are not facts??? What got *US* out of the Great Recession, pdq??? One sentence, por favor, will do and just about every non-flat-earth economist on the planet will give the same answer... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: artbrooks Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:33 PM Was that the Great Depression? Not one sentence, Bobert - one word: war. BTW, once upon a time, I was an economist. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: gnu Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:41 PM War? Noooo???!!! No way we are going to war. That would mean we would have had to have spent years battle training troops and field testing weapons in countries that were... oh, yeah, right... been there, done that... cover yer heads and duck yer tails... this one ain't gonna be fun... first one that's gonna see deaths on the NA continent. Surprise, surprise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:42 PM There isn't a one word answer for that question, artbrooks, but there is a universally held understanding what it was that broke the Great Depression and it was World War II which was the ultimate exercise on Keynesian economics (by default)... BTW, your question was unfair... Mine wasn't... As an economist, you should understand that... That's what we learned... The spending that FDR did and the programs he created gave people "hope" and few buck in their pockets but the spending forced on *US* from the war is waht really broke the back of the Great Depression... You disagree??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:43 PM Yes, the Second World War got the USA out of the depression. Massive employment, massive mobilization, massive job creation...no bombing or invasion of mainland America to mess things up, relatively small losses in American lives (compared to most combatant nations), massive war production. All you need to get out of a depression is a really large and definitely winnable war fought entirely on other people's land and paid for by other people's gold and other people's devastation! (meaning that of the UK and Europe) That window of opportunity doesn't exist now. Such a profitable BIG war is no longer feasible for America...or anyone else, mostly due to the nature of today's strategic weaponry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: pdq Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:47 PM Absolutely correct. End of the Great Depression: December 7th, 1942. Pearl Harbor attack by the Japanese. WWII. End of story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 09:55 PM Yes, it does, LH... We just don't have the political courage to do it... Think about it this way... WW II produced very little consumer goods for Americans... It produced a lot of stuff that blew the heck up??? Now, if you take the same courage and desire and put that effort and those resources to things like sustainable energy, planet friendly housing, high speed rail, planned work-live-play communities then we could stay busy for decades created a world where humans live in harmony with the planet... It's about will, not wars... We have been in endless wars since WW II and that modle just saps resources and lives... In the words of the late, great Waylon Jennings, "We need a change"... I mean, a real one and that is going to involved a complete change in the way we think, the way we solve problems, the way we live and it's going to take people of courage to insist on it... But it isn't impossible... It is very possible and I would argue that all we are doing now is putting off the inevitable and that one day, if mankind is to continue on, we'll have to make those choices... Right now, we have folks who rather than move forward want to marginalize government at a time when we need it the most... The corporation have shown they have no intere3st or courage in anything buy making money... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:02 PM So, pdq, WW II was the ultimate case of Keynesian economics!!! So, why is it some misguided idea now... No, don't answer that... It isn't!!! We haven't hardly given it a chance to work... Economists told *US* to put $1TPlus into the economy... The way we did it in WW II... We put $300B in and another $400B in tax cuts, half of which didn't get spent but went in the black hole of the rich... No, Keynesian economics didn't get an honest chance... It was a set up to fail so the right wing could say, "It doesn't work"... That is reality... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: pdq Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:02 PM Fact: The Great Depression ended on December 7th, 1941 with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. The sleeping giant awoke and everybody got focused on the same goal. It could happen again, but very unlikely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:05 PM Why did the war end the Great Depression, pdq??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:14 PM This just in... Apple has $77B on hand... The U.S. Treasury??? $74B... Ouch... The 20 tax cuts we have given the rich since 1955 are taking a toll... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:26 PM Ummmm, not to seem impatient, pdq, but the ball is in your court... How did WW II end the Depression??? B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: pdq Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:33 PM "The sleeping giant awoke and everybody got focused on the same goal." ~ me Note that I amswered the question before it was asked. I ain't pdq for nuttin'. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:48 PM So, not to to be assuming anything here, pdq, but if I interpret what you are saying is that in terms of economic theories, you reject the possibility that Keynesian economics had nothin' to do with ending the Great depression with the massive infusion of borrowed money for the war effort??? Hmmmmm??? Very strange logic... So you take a bunch of your human and natural resources and blow them up and kill a bunch of other folks is what ended the Great Depression but had nothin' to do with the fact that people had jobs and were getting paid??? Uh huh... There is something seriously wrong with your logic and your understanding of economics... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: pdq Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:56 PM Look up what FDR's Secretary of Treasury Morganthau said about "pump priming". He said it was a failure. That was about 1938. If you want to inform yourself, look it up. Not much elase I can do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:58 PM BTW, if you'd like to continue this ***very important*** discussion then I'll be back when I can get back... This idea that Keynesian economics is a flawed model is a bogus right winged PR story... It hasn't been given a real chance since 1941 when it was last employed and worked exactly how Keyes drew it up... The right hates it because it means investing our energy in a government that brought us the interstate highway system & a man on the moon rather than the failed models of the Enrons, BPs and Wall Streets... Uh huh... Guess again... I gotta go to bed... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Little Hawk Date: 30 Jul 11 - 10:59 PM I'm not saying things can't be turned around now, Bobert. They can. Just not with another big war as in the case of WWII, that's all. That method won't work this time. To turn things around this time you need a lot of sustainable new jobs for ordinary Americans...invest money in Main Street, not Wall Street. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Jack the Sailor Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:41 AM People have to live differently, sustainably. My 28 year old step son is doing it. A lot of young people are. Get the dollar down a bit more. We'll make more things here. Buy less foreign energy. Make more of our own. Tax the rich, pay down the debt. Make companies in the US pay taxes in the US on the profits made here. Even better make it state by state. Make GM and Toyota pay income taxes in California on income made selling their goods in California. Things will turn around. We will prosper. Our average life styles will take a hit. But per capita income could drop quite a bit and we would still be pretty comfortable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 31 Jul 11 - 04:37 AM Bobert: " This just in... Apple has $77B on hand... The U.S. Treasury??? $74B... Ouch... The 20 tax cuts we have given the rich since 1955 are taking a toll..." ...and add a few more into the mix, who have a global agenda, and use 'their' banks....and who can afford to buy the laws???.. ..as I said a few posts ago, we don't have 'representatives' of the people, we have brokers in the Houses, who deal in legislation!...Oh, and do you think they just might have passed laws and loopholes, to help get their 'clients' in position???..as they are now???...Well how the fuck do you think they got that big????...???... ....and all this time you thought they only cared about a Democratic Party, or Republican ideology that they stood for????.......THAT'S THE SHIT THEY WERE FEEDING YOU!!!!.....not their clients!...You got the 'cover story'!.....and you've been spouting it ever since!! Wake up! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:54 AM That is my point, LH... No, we don't need another big war or even a new and shiny smallish war, for that matter... What we do need is to get our heads wrapped around what it will take to get out country humming again... The corporations have no interst or motivation in helping here so count them out unless your model is to "privatize" everything down to charging Little Suzie for riding her trike on the sidewalk in front of her house and charging her parents for the air that Little Suzie breathes... Heck, why not privatize gravity, too... Yup, don't want yer shit floating around the house (you included) then pay up your Acme Gravity, Inc bill and we'll be out in a couple days to restore your service... I mean, privatization is a mean spirited "wet dream" of the rich... But never mind wet dream and gravity... No, I take it back, we do need a war... We need to declare war on stupid policies that are put in place by those who will profit rather than sound policies that are beneficial for the entire nation... The interstate highway system is the poster child of what government can do when we have a culture and mentality that we need to do things that benefit everyone... This war could include some things that have worked in the past such as the WPA or the CCC where unemployed people will be paid to work on our crumbling infrastructure... But we don't have to follow that model... We could just use existing companies and new start-up companies which the Repubs might find more palatable... But this idea that we need to cut spending during a recovery is flawed in every respect... This is garbage in = garbage out thinking... Last month the private sector added 58,000 jobs... Not great but beat a poke in the eye... But state and local governments had to lay off 40,000 workers... Hey, one don't have to be Menza material to see that, at that rate, the US will be right back in another recession with those kinda of policies... Time for some real Keyensian-ism... Let's go to war to win... Not go to make the rich richer while the working class and American infrastructure continue to crumble... I don't buy pdq's thinking that we have give given the Keyensian model a fair shake... Economists told *US* that the minimum amount it would take to get *US* out of the recession and humming was $1T+... Because the Repubs stamped their feet and had yet another hissy fit all Obama was able to get was $700B and of that only $300B in stimulus and the other $400B in what??? Yup, more fucking tax cuts??? We heed sanity here... If these same hissy fit Repubs got cancer they would seek out the brightest and best doctors yet when it comes to the Nation's over economy they follow the advice of hacks and people who are only interested in gaming the system??? That is insanity.... Nothing more and nothing less... Pure insanity!!! B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: gnu Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:47 PM So they have delayed the test vote. It'll all be over close to midnight but they gotta have one last big party on the taxpayer's dime. As for war(s), there can be no default if they are gonna chuck cruise missiles at Syria for storming Hama.... 80 dead. As I said on the other thread... wish I had a whack of extra cash late last week. I'd'a bought greenbacks at $1.063 and made good money come October. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 31 Jul 11 - 01:58 PM He STILL thinks it's a matter of party politics! Is someone paying you? GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,biff Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:11 PM truthfully I do not understand any of the economics. just get along and help others. tax the rich. nuff said. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 31 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM Time out! GfS |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Don Firth Date: 31 Jul 11 - 04:32 PM The Great Depression did NOT end with World War II. It was over well before then. This fiction that Roosevelt ended the Depression by starting the war is pure revisionist history, started by William Henry Chamberlin and a cadre of Right Wing Roosevelt haters, and picked up gleefully, years later, by the conspiracy theorists. Japan had been ravaging China (anybody hear of "The Rape of Nanking?") for many years, determined to rule Asia and "turn the Pacific into a Japanese lake," and Germany was out to take over Europe and beyond. The United States, determined to stay out of it, participated to the extent of such things as the Lend-Lease program to Great Britain, and putting an embargo on selling arms to aggressor countries such as Germany, Italy, and Japan, but that was it. Some people (such as Chamberlin) like to cite THAT as FDR's authorizing "a blatant breach of neutrality," thus precipitating us into the war, but the vast majority of Americans, although not wanting to get involved in the hostilities, were appalled at what was going on overseas, and applauded the Lend-Lease program and the embargoes. Then, Japan sucker-punched the United States. Japan sent a diplomatic mission to Washington to talk "peace" and to negotiate for easing our ban on selling them strategic materials. And while the talks were going on, Pearl Harbor was bombed and most of the American Pacific fleet was destroyed. We had been "sneak-attacked." In fact, the Japanese didn't know how much damage they had actually done. It was revealed later that we had been rendered so defenseless in the Pacific that if the Japanese had then invaded the West Coast of the United States, they would have met little military or naval resistance. I don't seriousy believe that FDR would have really been the evil mastermind of something like THAT! Other than the embargo on strategic materials, we had done nothing to provoke it—except that we weren't cooperating sufficiently with the Axis Powers' plan for world conquest. In fact, WE were on the menu ALSO. I was pretty young at the time, but I was very much aware of what was going on, and since it was such a part of my childhood, I have since had a special interest in those events. And rather than hearing about it by sleeping through a high school history class, I REMEMBER what was going on back then and who was doing what to whom. Among other things, I remember my father and a lot of people we knew being out of work, and the happiness and relief when my dad got a job on a WPA road crew. Along with many other people we knew. Within a short time, there were jobs! Jobs other than WPA and CCC. Because those jobs had paid people. They had money to spend again, and they spent it because they HAD to, on things like food and rent. And with money beginning to circulate again, the economy improved almost miraculously. My dad was able to get back into is real profession and things were well on the way to good again. For us and for the whole country. FDR also started the Social Security program, which gave those over 65 a measure of security in their older years. It allowed them to retire rather than having to work 'til they dropped—and it ended "poor houses" and "poor farms" for the elderly. I remember that they called it "Old Age Pension." The elderly hated what it was called (so they changed it to "Social Security") but they were greatly relieved that they would no longer have to work themselves to death, live off their kids, or go to the poor house. And this was in the late Thirties, NOT after December 7th, 1941! Those who blithely pontificate that "FDR ended the Depression by starting World War II" have bought the long-standing Right Wing propaganda and simply ignored what REALLY brought it to an end. It was FDR's instituting the so-called "alphabet agencies" such as the WPA and CCC, which put people back to work and gave them paychecks that, as I said, they had to spend right away on things like food and rent that got the economy going again. And his putting regulatory agencies, like the Securities and Exchange Commission, into place to regulate Wall Street and the banks and stop the endless run of Ponzi schemes that precipitated the Depression in the first place. The Right Wing hated that! And they worked like beavers to either eliminate or render impotent those regulatory agencies. And they finally made it with Ronald Reagan. He either ended them or appointed executives from the businesses themselves to the agencies. [In my best Mr. Rogers voice: "Can you say 'Fox in charge of the chicken coop?'"] THAT is why we're in this mess today. And NOW, they want to kill Social Security and Medicare! What we need now is someone with a grasp of the situation, and the intelligence, charisma, and GUTS to do what FDR did. And no, not start a war. Haven't those of you who insist on mindlessly intoning the slanderous canard about FDR ending the Depression by starting a World War noticed? We're already IN a couple of wars!! How is THAT working for you? Don Firth P. S. I fully realize that I'm wasting my time here. People are very fond of glib, "I'm really, really clever because I know what's not in the history books!" Did it ever occur to you that the reason it's not in the history books is because it's simply not true? But, oh, we love our conspiracy theories far too much to ever let them go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 31 Jul 11 - 04:38 PM Sorry, GfinS, but I have no clue as to what debate you are watching... The Repubs found themselves with a "free shot" at taking out some of the New Deal and they took it... The fact that the Dems realized that, yes, there are some seriously crazy people in the House who lied their way into office with promises of jobs and then stripped off their sheep clothing, pulled out their assault rifles and started firing at the New Deal is ***not*** evidence that both parties are the same... Lose that song from your repertoire... It's old, thread worn and sucks... And is an out right lie... And while you are at it take the blinders off and earplugs out and join 2011... This ain't 2000 anymore... Hasn't been for a long, long time... How long??? $7T worth of Bush's spending spree, that's how long... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:21 PM Actually, Don, like today's recovery the 30s did have growth... Just not robust as from '41 on... The WPA and CCC were 100% the correct things to do because a.) it gave people hope, b.) we got a lot of infrastructure built c.) it put people to work and d.) it got money into the economy... It was slowly gaining speed when the US entered (not started) WW II which required massive spending... That is my point... People are arguing that Keyes model is and was wrong but most real economists disagree... It is exactly what we need right now... If the private sector does its part and the public sector does its part that's like two engines pulling rather than one... Keynesian economics can get *US* out of this rut but you can't go on a cutting spree while using it ot it will fail every time... The Repubs know this and that is why they want as much $$$ out of government ***right now*** as they can get because they want as much unemployement as they can get going into next years elections... They really don't care if if hurts the country... This isn't just an opinion on my part... It's also the view of leading economists, Nobel Prize winning Paul Krugman, as well... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Richard Bridge Date: 31 Jul 11 - 05:43 PM I do see a parallel here. One group of neanderthals has shut down criticism of themselves here, and another bunch of neanderthals has ensured there will be no new taxes. America is broken. Time for a tabula rasa. Do what the Syrian people are doing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bill D Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:08 PM So...they have 'almost' agreed on something.... which the extremists at both ends won't like at all... we shall see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: Bobert Date: 31 Jul 11 - 09:26 PM I see it as a victory for Obama.... Now the Congressional committee will have to cut DoD spending... That's a start... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Republican Default Crises From: dick greenhaus Date: 31 Jul 11 - 10:15 PM It seems that the GOP has succeeded in something they've been working on since the 1930s----cuts in Social Security. Details (I shudder to think) to follow. Probably a rejiggering of Cost OF Living indices, which can cost people depending on Social Security thousands a year. |
