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What IS Folk Music?

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Scrump 14 Mar 07 - 06:25 AM
GUEST,Crag Rat 14 Mar 07 - 06:47 AM
pirandello 14 Mar 07 - 07:44 AM
Scrump 14 Mar 07 - 08:10 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Mar 07 - 10:16 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Mar 07 - 10:38 AM
GUEST, Grimmy 14 Mar 07 - 10:40 AM
Scrump 14 Mar 07 - 10:40 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Mar 07 - 10:45 AM
GUEST, Grimmy 14 Mar 07 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Mar 07 - 10:54 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Mar 07 - 11:01 AM
Scrump 14 Mar 07 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,Guest Baz 14 Mar 07 - 11:09 AM
GUEST,Scoville at scanner 14 Mar 07 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 14 Mar 07 - 11:21 AM
Peace 14 Mar 07 - 11:26 AM
Scrump 14 Mar 07 - 11:35 AM
GUEST,Baz 14 Mar 07 - 11:47 AM
GUEST, Grimmy 14 Mar 07 - 11:51 AM
Richard Bridge 14 Mar 07 - 11:54 AM
GUEST, Grimmy 14 Mar 07 - 12:03 PM
dick greenhaus 14 Mar 07 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 14 Mar 07 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,lox 14 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Mar 07 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,IknowwhatIlike 14 Mar 07 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 14 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,lox 14 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM
Richard Bridge 15 Mar 07 - 02:11 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Mar 07 - 04:59 AM
Scrump 15 Mar 07 - 05:11 AM
GUEST, Grimmy 15 Mar 07 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,lox 15 Mar 07 - 08:03 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Mar 07 - 09:02 AM
Grimmy 15 Mar 07 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Jim 15 Mar 07 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Mar 07 - 11:00 AM
Scrump 15 Mar 07 - 11:25 AM
Grimmy 15 Mar 07 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 15 Mar 07 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Jim 15 Mar 07 - 05:45 PM
PoppaGator 15 Mar 07 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 15 Mar 07 - 07:06 PM
GUEST,M.Ted 15 Mar 07 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz 15 Mar 07 - 10:13 PM
Lonesome EJ 15 Mar 07 - 10:20 PM
PoppaGator 15 Mar 07 - 11:48 PM
Lonesome EJ 15 Mar 07 - 11:57 PM
PoppaGator 16 Mar 07 - 12:14 AM
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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 06:25 AM

any Cnut trying to hold back the tide

Thank heavens you mistyped that, Crag Rat :-)


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Crag Rat
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 06:47 AM

I knew a wise old owl like you would work out the anagram, Scrump!


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: pirandello
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:44 AM

People like Richard Bridge are the sort that want to protect and cossett folk music as though it were some kind of holy artefact only the privileged cognoscenti are allowed to talk about.
The fusty attitude displayed is guaranteed to put anyone showing an interest the quickest way to the door.

Mr Bridge, I encourage you to check your calendar; it isn't 1954 anymore and folk music, performers, attitudes and definitions have moved on. I'm sure that you too would benefit from a slightly more open minded and less blinkered approach.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 08:10 AM

Richard Bridge is as entitled as anyone else to his view on what folk music is or isn't.

Likewise, anyone else is as entitled to their view as Richard.

IMO, trying to stop other people (such as Charmain, the person who started this thread) from even discussing what folk music is or isn't is just plain arrogant and ill-mannered. Why should Charmain or anyone else have to read a document from 50-odd years ago before being allowed to discuss folk music? The fact that this has been discussed ad nauseam before is irrelevant to the poster.

The question raised by Charmain was "What is Folk Music?", not "What do you think of the definition of folk music from the 1954 World Folk Music Council?".

Richard, if you or others think you've 'heard it all before', then feel free to ignore the thread. No-one is saying you have to read it. The clue is in the thread subject.

<flameproof coat ON> :-)


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:16 AM

It is usually wise to have some knowledge before opining. It is one of the fetishes of our time that the opinions of the uninformed and irrational are as valuable as those of the informed and rational.

If you think I preserve folk music in aspic you haven't heard me play.

If you think I play only folk music you haven't heard me play.

If you want to play strict tempo, you ought to know a quickstep from a waltz.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:38 AM

From a asemi-academinc paper I heard in Nottingham University in late 70s or early 80s>

"Folk Song in England

In 1954 the International Folk Music Council adopted this definition:—

"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission.

The factors that shape the tradition are:
(i)         Continuity which links the present with the past:
(ii)       Variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or group:
(iii)       Selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from the rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular music and art music, and it can likewise be applied to the music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready—made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the refashioning and recreation of the music by the community that gives its folk character.



'Conclusions', by Cecil Sharp~

A folk song is always anonymous.
Modal melodies, set to secular words, are nearly always of folk origin.
Song tunes in the minor mode are either composed tunes, or folk airs that have suffered corruption.
Folk tunes do not modulate.
Folk melodies are non—harmonic: that is to say, they have been fashioned by those in whom the harmonic sense is undeveloped. This is shown:—

a.       in the use of non—harmonic passing notes.
b.       in a certain vagueness of tonality, especially in the opening phrases of modal tunes.
c.       in the use of flattened seventh, after the manner of a leading note, in the final cadence of modal airs.
d.       in the difficulty of harmonizing a folk tune.
e.       Folk melodies often contain bars of irregular length.
f.       Prevalence of five and seven time-measures in folk airs.

In giving evidence in 1835, Francis Place reported that ballads sung about the streets during his youth could not be adequately described in present company. 'I have given you in writing words of some common ballads which you would not think fit to have uttered here. At that time the songs were of the most indecent kind: they were publicly sung and sold in the streets and markets: no one would mention them in any society now!



Another consideration.

"The mind of the folk singer is occupied exclusively with the words, with the clearness of which he will allow nothing to interfere. Consequently, he but rarely sings more than one note to a syllable and will often. interpolate a syllable of his own rather than break this rule.

"O abroad as I was wordelkin'
I was walking all alone
When I heard a couple tordelkin'
As they walked all along"



The Greek/Mediaeval/Folk Song Modes ~

The scales on which many English folk tunes are based are not the same as those with which we arc familiar through classical music.
The Greeks were the earliest musical grammarians in Europe and laid the foundation of the scientific system which was to be, in a modified form, our inheritance for plainsong and folk song.

       There were seven Greek Modes       (The white notes on a piano).
Dorian (Plato considered this the strongest)       D to D
Phrygian.       E to E
Lydian       F to F
Mixolydian       C to C
Aeolian       A to A
Locrian       B to B
lonian (our major modeNodus lascivus)       C to C

"Sumer is a--cumen in", our oldest Mss is in the Ionian Mode.

English folk tunes are most frequently found cast in the Dorian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Ionian modes. Occasionally in the minor: Cecil Sharp wrote: "The majority of our English -folk times, say two~thirds, are in the major mode. The remaining third is fairly evenly divided between the Mixolydian, Dorian and Aeolian modes, with, perhaps, a preponderance in favour of the Mixolydian,

The pitch of the mode may of course be varied, the relationship of the notes being constant.



The Pentatonic_Scale

The pentatonic scale (five notes to the octave) is widely distributed in folk music and is found in the traditional music of many oriental countries. We also know that it was practiced in ancient times in China and Greece. It is common in Scotland and Ireland.

In its most common form it possesses no semitones, the intervals between the notes consisting of whole tones and one—and—a—half tones. It can be played on the black notes of a piano, or on the white notes, omitting B and B.

According to the relative position of the tonic, there are five pentatonic modes, though some scholars prefer to regard them as segments of the same scale.

English songs also show a number of Hexatonic (six—notes) tunes, usually with the sixth missing.

Sharp held the theory that the present seven—note diatonic scale is a development from the pentatonic scale,




Ballads

"'Therefore,' while each ballad will he idiosyncratic, it will not be an expression of the personality of individuals, but of a collective sympathy: and the fundamental characteristic of popular ballads is therefore the absence of subjectivity and self—consciousness. Though they do not ~"write themselves" as Grimm has said - though a man and not a people has composed them, still the author counts for nothing, and it is not by mere accident, but with the best reason, that they have come down to us anonymously." Child.

Romantic Ballads       Child Waters, The Gypsy Laddie, The Maid Freed from the Gallows.

Tragic Ballads       The Two sisters, Lord Randal, Barbara Allan.

Historical Ballads       Sir Patric Spens, Mary Hamilton, Queen Jane, The Hunting of the Cheviot.

The Outlaw Ballads       Robin and the Three Squires, Johnnie Cock.

Supernatural Ballads       Lady Isobel and the Elf—Knight, The Unquiet Grave, The Demon Lover, The Wife of Usher's Well.

Humorous Ballads       Our Goodman, The Farmer's Curst Wife,





Conventional Elements

Conventional_diction       cerbain archaisms not found in common parlance — a song about lords and ladies will use "steed", "morrow," etc.

.Conventional Epithet       "milk—white steed," "Lily—white hand," "Fair Margaret."

Conventional Phrase       Tears "blind the eye," blood 'trickling down the knee."

Commonplace       e.g., the rose—briar stanza.

They buried her in the old churchyard (epithet)
They buried him in the choir
Out of her grave grew a red, red rose (epithet)
And out of his a green briar. -

Opening/Ending Formula         "As I walked out one Nay morning,"
       'It fell upon a..      
       "Come all you young fellows and listen to me.





"Voice and ear are left at a loss what to do with the ballad until supplied with the tune it was written to go with…. Unsung, it stays half—lacking.'

Robert Frost. "


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST, Grimmy
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:40 AM

What IS Folk Music?

'Folk music', Charmain, is a deceptively harmless phrase guaranteed to start wars amongst otherwise benign human beings.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:40 AM

It is usually wise to have some knowledge before opining. It is one of the fetishes of our time that the opinions of the uninformed and irrational are as valuable as those of the informed and rational.

Whether you like it or not, Richard, on Mudcat everyone's opinions are valued equally. That's what some of us like about it. We don't need to have any particular qualifications or experience before we comment. As I said, you're free to ignore our comments if you don't like them or agree with them.

If you think I preserve folk music in aspic you haven't heard me play.

I never said I thought that, and you're right, I haven't heard you play. But maybe you are referring to pirandello's comments.

If you think I play only folk music you haven't heard me play.

I don't think anyone said that at all, or did I miss it? In any case, again, you're right, I haven't heard you play.

If you want to play strict tempo, you ought to know a quickstep from a waltz.

You've got me there, I'm afraid. I can't argue with it, though.

In short, I didn't think this thread was particularly about you, Richard - I thought it was about answering the question "What is folk music?"

(Btw, Richard, don't think I'm having a go at you - I'm just trying to respond to your comments that I thought were a little unfair on the person raising this question.)


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:45 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=78170


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST, Grimmy
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:45 AM

BTW Richard, Mixolydian is G to G, not C to C.

SEE WHAT I MEAN????


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 10:54 AM

"It is usually wise to have some knowledge before opining. It is one of the fetishes of our time that the opinions of the uninformed and irrational are as valuable as those of the informed and rational". (Quote from Richard Bridge, above).

Amen to that, Richard!

And to all of you who insist that they are "entitled to their opinion", yes, of course you are! But I am also equally entitled to disagree with it! Additionally, there is absolutely no 'rule' which says that I have to respect your opinion (it's a tough old world!).

I have a particular lack of agreement and respect for the "all music is folk music" opinion. This is because I suspect the motives of those who so opine. I suspect that you hold this opinion because you want to perform (or to listen to) pop/rock music in a folk club. Well, go ahead, play or listen to what you like, I CAN'T stop you! Just don't expect me to approve, that's all ...

Oh, I get it! You don't actually have the courage of your own convictions, you want someone else to take responsibility for your choices and you actually crave approval - am I getting warm?


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:01 AM

Grimmy, you've picked up on part of a topic there. Mixolydian is G to G on the C scale. There is also a Mixolydian mode (ie the set of notes with the relative intervals between them that would be found by playing the usual Mixolydian) from C to C.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:09 AM

I have a particular lack of agreement and respect for the "all music is folk music" opinion.

The problem is that the definition of 'folk music' lies somewhere between that, and "no music is folk music" (I don't know of anyone who holds that latter opinion, but some people's definitions come pretty close to it :-)). Each individual peobably has a different idea as to where in between these two extremes the definition lies.

And that's the problem. Each person thinks their definition is right, and everyone else's is wrong. So the question cannot be answered in a way that would satisfy everyone.

Proving Fermat's Last Theorem was a piece of p*** compared with this :-)


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Guest Baz
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:09 AM

Firstly, I must say that I find the very existence of a 'World Council of Folk Music' amusing in the extreme...to me, it seems to be an anathema to the ethos of 'the community re-fashioning and re-creating the music' to have a World Authority to it.

That said, I do agree with their definition, although it doesn't bode well for the 'future' of folk music if you take it at face value. That's because the definition strictly excludes 'published' music that it taken verbatim from the source - there must be some alteration / evolution of the song for it to be folk.

You can easily imagine how this happened back in the day. With no records and hardly any sheet music, the 'common folk' learned music by ear, and sometimes they learned it 'wrong' or maybe deliberately changed it. Someone made a comparison to a meme upthread. Fair enough, that seems very reasonable. The 'good' songs survive (although in various mutated forms), and the 'bad' ones die out because nobody can be bothered to sing them.

But these days, if I write really good songs (which, I hasten to add, I don't), chances are, I'm going to try and get them recorded at some stage. If the songs are VERY good, they might end up on a CD bought in massive numbers, or on the radio. (Of course I understand that just because a song is on a CD or radio, it doesn't necessarily make it good - but bear with me...). But THAT means that when my millions of doting fans learn my songs, they learn them from the 'official' or 'proper' version. It doesn't change with time like a REAL folk song does, because if they play their rendition of the song to someone else, and that someone else decides that THEY'D like to play it too, they refer back to the original source to learn it...in this case, my platinum selling CD.

What you end up with is maybe 1000 people playing my song, but with no variations other than the ones imposed by different musician's limitations.

Now, there are guys at my local folk club who do write songs, and they're not on CDs, and not on the radio. So if I learn one of them, and play it to someone else, who then learns it from me, and so on and so on, then OK, there you have a bona fide folk song (or at least you will do in say 60 years if it lasts that long). But, the crucial question is, how many of these real new folk songs are in YOUR repetoire? I don't want to make too many assumptions, but I'd guess not many. That might be wrong - if it is, tell me!

So, my assertation is that folk music is a shrinking gene pool, because technology (CD's / radio / the internet) make mass dissemination of music so readily available. The folk process doesn't apply any more, and if a song must be subjected to the folk process to qualify as a folk song, then there just aren't going to be many new ones about.

That's my 2-penneth anyway.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Scoville at scanner
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:12 AM

My intent was not at all to prevent Charmain or anyone else from discussing--I only wished that s/he had looked it up first and considered refining her[?] question beyond Square One in the hopes of avoiding some of the mudslinging and restating that invariably ensues. I thought it was a fair suggestion considering many of these threads are fairly recent and have content posted by current members, which would give her[?] an idea of what is on our collective minds without reinventing the wheel. (If you notice, I then went on to discuss it myself, anyway. I even meant to be civil.)

I'd never even heard of the 1954 definition of the Folk Music Whatever It Is. Richard's post is the first time I've ever seen it. I can see its point, but I'm afraid I find it both outdated and utterly Anglocentric, Classical and Medieval tunings aside. Does Turkish folk music follow those rules? Does Japanese? African? I don't know, but I'm betting there are loads of exceptions that are very much folk music. (I hate the term "world music", too; everyone's music is somebody else's "world music" once you go over an international border.)


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:21 AM

Folk music is music by folks for folks. bob


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:26 AM

Yo, Bob. E-mail me would you? Have a question for ya and I don't know what I have done with YOUR e-mail address. (Basically, what are you doing the end of July? Specifically July 27 and 28.)


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Scrump
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:35 AM

Richard - thanks for posting those various extracts.

GUEST,Guest Baz - your comments are interesting too. I agree with you about modern recording and mass distribution of recorded music making it very unlikely that in future, the author/composer of songs written today will be of unknown authorship (while the world survives, anyway).

So Cecil Sharp's conclusion "A folk song is always anonymous" quoted by Richard above is unlikely ever to happen again, and if that were a requirement for a song or tune to be considered as 'folk music', then folk music would remain as a finite set of songs and tunes that could never be expanded.

Is that what we want? Maybe some people would say "yes" but I doubt very much whether all of us would.

[Btw, I'm quite enjoying this thread, and that's why I am opposed by any attempts to stop people discussing this subject. Yes, it has been discussed many times before, without any definite conclusion being reached as to an answer to the question in the thread subject. But I don't think it's fair to expect newcomers who were not part of the original discussions to just read the old threads and prohibit them from airing their views. Mudcat is an interactive forum, and people should be allowed to have their say if they wish, regardless as to whether it's been said before by other different people. Part of the fun is working things out for yourselves, by discussion.]


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Baz
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:47 AM

Scrump said 'Part of the fun is working things out for yourselves, by discussion.'

Hear hear! That's why this a forum and not a text book.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST, Grimmy
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:51 AM

Since I predicted a war I may as well take part.

Richard, your very informative notes (above) include, under "There were seven Greek Modes (The white notes on a piano)." the following:

"lonian (our major modeNodus lascivus)       C to C"

which is correct, and:

"Mixolydian       C to C"

which is not.

Of course, one can play a Mixolydian scale from C to C, but not on the white notes.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 11:54 AM

Sorry, that is a fault from the OCR reader I used to scan the hard copy of the article, that I did not pick up on proofreading.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST, Grimmy
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 12:03 PM

Hey Richard - no problem ;-)

I reckon attempting to define Folk Music is a bit like trying to explain to a blind person what the colour red is. I know what it is but...


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 01:09 PM

An elephant is a vertebrate. An elephant is a mammal. An elephant is a gray object. An elephant is an herbivore. An elephant is an object of significant mass. What IS an elephant?


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 03:03 PM

PEACE: I can be reached by going to www.myspace.com/bobryszkiewicz. Or, Google Bob Ryszkiewicz. As for July 27/28, I have no idea. My studio is running, and we're producing music in various genres. THE SOUL EATER(my new track) will soon be coming out... Maybe a hundred years from now, somebody will open a time capsule and say, "so THAT's what Folk Music was..." Maybe Folk Music "speaks like silence. With no ideas of violence. Never has to say she's faithful, she's true, like ice, like fire." bob


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM

Perhaps if folk music evolves and changes over time depending on the folk who listen to it then so does it's definition.

Perhaps in the age of internet, radio, tv, cassette, mp3, cd, lp, MD, dvd, isdn, cable, sattelite etc etc etc, the reality of the context in which folk music exists is so significantly different to what it was in the 1950's that rapid evolution has occurred/is occurring/will occur/ ... needs to occur ...

Maybe bob dylan, his contemporaries and those who have emerged since, appeared on the scene too late to ever be examined fairly in the light of the 1954 declaration.

When everyone all over the world already knows his version of "blowin in the wind" off by heart and has resulting expectations of it, they are more often than not going to revert to it.

It's more convenient on the record and more reliably accurate and satisfying too.

But more relevantly, it hasn't needed to be passed on by word of mouth. Technology has rendered that a comparatively redundant means of communication. Folk everywhere have music technology at their fingertips nowadays, even if just a transistor radio or a simple cassette recorder.

If bob dylans music hadn't been recorded and marketed so successfully on such a grand scale, wouldn't the line "how many roads must a man walk down before you can call him a man" have been sung by increasing numbers of performers, all eager to spread the songs message at a time when those words, coming from a white man, meant so much to those who had lost faith in white men and who were tired of being called "BOY"

Would Sam Cooke have sung it, redefining it in his own inimitable style? He was one of many who were deeply moved and inspired by it. In his case, so much so that he wrote "a change is gonna come".

So the message in that case was added to in a different way because the song was already out there and didn't need to be spread in the same way as other folk songs have been.


Just some thoughts :-)


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:13 PM

"Proving Fermat's Last Theorem was a piece of p*** compared with this..."

"I reckon attempting to define Folk Music is a bit like trying to explain to a blind person what the colour red is."

Etc., etc., etc...ad nauseum.

It's only difficult if you don't want to know the answer!


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,IknowwhatIlike
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:20 PM

I'd prefer not to know the answer. I might be hugely disappointed.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM

Yep! Reality tends to be like that.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM

Why do we exist?

A difficult question or one to which we would simply prefer not to know the answer?

Shimrod, are you saying that you have the answer and that if people only listened to it everything would be much simpler?

Is the 1954 definition analogous to a religious text?

A frivolous comparison yes, but useful nonetheless?


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 02:11 AM

To revert to my point, the stuff I reposted above came from old mudcat posts. So what's the point of coming in and asking "What is folk music" unless you have something new to say? There is a definition. There is general academic consensus. You may not like the definition, but unless you can provide a sensible argument why the definition is wrong, why open the door for idiots?


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 04:59 AM

"Shimrod, are you saying that you have the answer and that if people only listened to it everything would be much simpler?"

No, lox, I don't have a definitive answer and the 1954 definition is certainly not a "religious text". I do think, though, that it is an excellent starting point for thinking about the question, "what is folk music?" and the associated question, "how does folk music differ from other types of music?" I am also a good enough scientist to know that the category 'Folk Music' has fuzzy borders and can never be definitively pinned down. BUT this is not a fault with the original definition! Many aspects of the universe tend to be organised like this - it's just the way reality is - you can ALWAYS find exceptions and counter-examples.

But the main point of my interjection above is that there seems to be a vociferous group of people out there who don't want to know what folk music is because such knowledge might prevent them from 'shoe-horning' their own particular favourite type of music into the category 'Folk Music'. I'm not sure what their motive(s) for such wilful ignorance are - one possibility might be that they think the resulting vagueness legitimises their playing of their favoured musical type in a folk club. What puzzles me is why they think that their choices need to be legitimised. I have a growing suspicion that these people don't actually have the courage of their own convictions and they want 'other people' (ie. 'experts') to take responsibility for their choices. When they don't receive such legitimisation or, worse still, approval of their musical choices from audiences, they start bleating about 'Folk Police'.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:11 AM

To revert to my point, the stuff I reposted above came from old mudcat posts. So what's the point of coming in and asking "What is folk music" unless you have something new to say? There is a definition. There is general academic consensus. You may not like the definition, but unless you can provide a sensible argument why the definition is wrong, why open the door for idiots?

The point is, Richard, that newcomers (or as you call them rather disparagingly, 'idiots') who were not party to the original 'general academic consensus', wish to air their opinions.

They don't want to be told "this has been discussed many times before, therefore there's no point in discussing it any further and we're not interested in what your views are so %$£# off", which is what you seem to be saying.

If you or anyone else doesn't want to take part in this discussion, the answer is simple - you can just ignore the thread. Nobody is forcing you to look at it, let alone contribute.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST, Grimmy
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 06:06 AM

Shimrod, I hope you are a "good enough scientist" to provide evidence for your theory that "there seems to be a vociferous group of people out there who don't want to know what folk music is because such knowledge might prevent them from 'shoe-horning' their own particular favourite type of music into the category 'Folk Music' ".

I can categorically assure you I have no such motive or intention. I happen to believe that there is no satisfactory dictionary definition of Folk Music, and even if there were, it would only be temporary (just as the 1954 one was, with its reference to oral transmission).

Frankly, it doesn't particularly bother me - so, unlike some, I'm not going to obsess about it.

A fundamental characteristic of folk music is that it evolves. Some of our traditional songs retain echoes of ritualistic chants, possibly, according to Bert Lloyd, going back to the Bronze Age. Time and circumstance have altered their original meaning and significance - and will do so again.

I am content with that.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 08:03 AM

Richard,

I'd like to return to MY post:

GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Mar 07 - 04:32 PM

in which I arrive at a valid question concerning the significance of technology and the media revolution in the context of folk music And how it's boundaries are defined..

There lies grounds for a debate concerning a valid criticism of the 1954 declaration.

That was what you asked for wasn't it?

Thanks Shimrod for your answer.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:02 AM

Hi Grammy,

If I really was a good enough scientist I would go back over the last few hundred Mudcat threads, and trawl through numerous folk music paper publications, and count how many times phrases such as 'Folk Police' etc. have been used - and interview as many of these posters/correspondents as possible. Trouble is it would take too long, this thread would be off the board - and I can't be arsed (!)

Of course, you can try it if you like!

I think that I might find (but, of course, don't actually know until I - or you - do it!) that most of these disgruntled individuals think that existing definitions of 'Folk Music' are too narrow and should be adjusted to include their own particular favourite type of music. I think that I also might find that these people just want to assert that their favourite musical form is 'folk' but they want an 'expert'or 'authority' to justify their position for them.

Could be completely wrong, of course (it's just an hypothesis), but I suspect that I may be getting warm.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 09:51 AM

I obviously have more faith in the robustness of the tradition than you, Shimrod.

Over the last thousand years it has embraced - and probably rebuffed - numerous instances of 'other' music forms and will continue to do so. The 1954 definition states, as a factor that shapes the tradition,
"Selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives."

How could it be otherwise?


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 10:23 AM

Seems we've had this discussion many times before, but I'll risk repeating what I probably said on an earlier thread.

I've heard, although I don't necessarily agree with these definitions:

If you know who wrote it, it ain't folk.

If it takes more than two trips to get your stuff in from the car, it ain't folk.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:00 AM

Actually Jim, folk music doesn't necessarily have to be composed by 'anon.' and note that the 1954 definition doesn't mention anonymity of composition at all. Cecil Sharp believed that the author of a folk song had to be anonymous, but since his time this view has been modified.

The classic example of a traditional song with a known author is 'The Famous Flower of Serving Men' which was published in July 1656 by Laurence Price (see 'A Book of British Ballads' by Roy Palmer, Llanerch Facsimile Reprint, 1998).

It is of course the PROCESS that the song has been through - not the question of whether it has a known author or not. And the IMPORTANT thing about C# is that he was a pioneer of this evolutionary view of folk song and not that he may have got some of the details wrong. People who assert that such and such a song (usually a favourite of theirs) will be "a folk song of tomorrow" might (just possibly, IF the 'folk process' is still operating) be right, but only time will tell!


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Scrump
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:25 AM

The question of anonymity of authorship is interesting, because what would happen if somebody uncovered documentary evidence that (say) Shakespeare had written a song that had hitherto been regarded as "Anon". Would that mean that a song previously regarded as 'folk' would suddenly be disqualified? Cecil Sharp would have said so, presumably.

I think that I might find (but, of course, don't actually know until I - or you - do it!) that most of these disgruntled individuals think that existing definitions of 'Folk Music' are too narrow and should be adjusted to include their own particular favourite type of music. I think that I also might find that these people just want to assert that their favourite musical form is 'folk' but they want an 'expert'or 'authority' to justify their position for them.

You may well be right that some people have such motives, but I don't think you can assert that applies to all people who think that existing definitions of 'Folk Music' are too narrow. I think many of us just want to get closer to a definition that includes what we think is folk music, that others might exclude from their definition. This needn't be our 'favourite musical form', just something that we consider ought to be included in the definition. These people are not necessarily 'disgruntled', they are just trying to come up with a better definition than one that currently doesn't satisfy everybody.

As others have said, things have moved on a bit since 1954. At that time there probably weren't some of the types of music now regarded as 'folk' by some people, e.g. the contemporary songwriters who perform(ed) their own songs such as Guthrie, Dylan, Paxton. If these people had been around in 1954, maybe the definition would have been different? I'm not saying it would have been, because I bow to the knowledge of those who are familiar with the document in question, but I'm just raising questions like this as part of this discussion (which again I assert our right to have, regardless of previous discussions that may or may not have taken place).

I think the term 'Folk Police' is shorthand for blinkered bigots who have their own idea as to what folk music is or isn't, and tries to impose that view on everybody else, riding roughshod over any objections.


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Grimmy
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:31 AM

If I write a song, what process must it undergo (other than its acceptance by the folk community) for it to become a 'folk song'?


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:37 PM

Hi Scrump,

"The question of anonymity of authorship is interesting, because what would happen if somebody uncovered documentary evidence that (say) Shakespeare had written a song that had hitherto been regarded as "Anon". Would that mean that a song previously regarded as 'folk' would suddenly be disqualified? Cecil Sharp would have said so, presumably."

Yes, I think that this is a very interesting question and it is my personal opinion that Shakespeare's song would still qualify as a folk song (I like to think that I would have the courage to argue this point with C# - but I'd probably 'wimp out'! "Of course you're right, Mr Sharp - you are, after all a leading authority - sorry, THE leading authority!").

As for moving on from the 1954 definition, I suspect that this definition is still correct IN ESSENCE if not in every detail. In the same way we may have moved on since Darwin's day but that still doesn't negate the pioneering work that he did on the Theory of Evolution.

As for "blinkered bigots", yes, there may be a few of those around - on both sides of the argument! You may think, Scrump, that I am a blinkered bigot (?) and I do admit that I was rather churlish towards you in a previous thread (for which I sincerely apologise). The trouble is that I am rather passionate about the subject of traditional music and can get carried away when discussing it. I also think that, in this forum, if you don't make your points 'robustly' you can get ignored. And, let's face it, in real life I am a sober, law-abiding, upright citizen but here I can get away with being just a bit anarchic (Shimrod is, if you like, my wicked alter-ego - and he's beginning to get out of control - AAAAHHHHH!!!). If I get a bit outrageous, now and then, just ignore me


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 05:45 PM

Although I suggested the above definitions, as I stated, I don't necessarily agree with them. In fact I think that trying to define "folk" is a thankless task. Sing Out! readers have been attempting this for about fifty years.

I heard one performer at a folk club say, "It's a four letter word that starts with F and ends with K and if you use it, your songs won't get played on the radio."


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 06:45 PM

Although my first reaction upon seeing this subject-title was "THIS again!!?!?!?!", I see nothing wrong with rehashing this never-ending discussion, with or without reference to earlier iterations. If you don't like it, don't read it!

As always, some interesting things are being said that some of us may never have considered before ~ as well as a few angles that NONE of us ever had a chance to consider previously.

Of course, the most interesting contributions seem always to come from those with the least restrictive definitions. (Note that I'm not saying that these are the moist valid or true contributions ~ just the most interesting. Of course, I'm prejudiced because that's the camp to which I belong.)

Another thought, for consideration only by those open to the idea that amateur rock'n'roll ("garage rock") might, just conceivably, be considered as a "folk" form:

A few years ago, some forum open to discussions of blues/rock/pop music presented a question, "What are the greatest 'cover' versions of all time?" (Maybe it was here, maybe elsewhere.)

Someone quickly mentioned what would have been my own nomination, Jimi Hendrix's reinterpretation of Bob Dylan's "All Along the Watchtower," a performance so definitive that The Bob himself has had no alternative but to "cover" Jimi's version ever since. (IMHO)

Jimi Hendrix having been mentioned, I immediately thought of "Hey Joe." As anyone as old as I am knew at the time, this song was pretty widely performed live, by amateur bands at high-school dances all over the US, for several years before Jimi recorded his version. Even though it was NEVER a hit record, and no one seems to remember the name of the writer or of the band/artist who released the original recording, it achieved great popularity among semi-skilled young electric guitar players because it had a cool sound, a slightly unusual but very easily played chord progression, and (most importantly) a catchy bass run.

Some bossy individual ~ a forum moderator, or maybe the person who had started the thread ~ responded to me in a huff: Jimi's "Hey Joe" could not be considered a "cover" song, because the originator was not readily identifiable and no earlier commercial recording had been a widely known "hit." This blowhard expert concluded that he was forced to rule, by fiat, that "Hey Joe" be credited to Jimi Himself.

I'm sure that Jimi himself, were he still with us, would readily admit that it's a song he learned . . . somewhere, somehow. He probably didn't know who actually wrote it until he was ready to record, and someone had to look up where the royalties were to be directed.

I'm sure that there is, somewhere, a record of who gets credit and earns money from "Hey Joe," but for the millions of guitar (and air-guitar) players who knew it quite well, even before the Hendrix performance filmed at Monterey and his subsequent recording, it might just as well be "anon" or "trad," and that's why I offer it as an example of the type of piece that might be considered as a 20th century, electronic-age, "folksong."


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 07:06 PM

PoppaGator: To the best of my knowledge, Hey Joe was written by Bobby Roberts, a New York Folksinger! Tex Koenig used to talk about this with me after he came to Canada from The Village in New York, circa 1967. Hendrix picked it up there. bob


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,M.Ted
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 07:49 PM

Written, apparently, by Billy (William Moses) Roberts, Jr., from South, Carolina--he played on the West Coast coffee house circuit, not in NYC, though --the story, such as it can be acertained, is hereHey, Joe There are conflicting ideas as to where Hendrix got it--some say from hearing Tim Rose, at the Cafe Wha?, some say from the British group, The Creation, who Hendrix had apparently seen a lot in London--

PoppaGator is certainly right that this song circulated by what we'd sort of have to call "The Folk Process", rather than through Pop Radio--and, in true folk style, it isn't really possible to pin it down--


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 10:13 PM

Thanks M.Ted: I remembered it as Bobby, looks like it was Billy. 40 years is a long time...
Tex did mention the Cafe Wha? a number of times. Thanks. bob


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 10:20 PM

I've got one thing to say.........



ARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:48 PM

I'm so glad I wrote up my "Hey Joe" diatribe ~ it's been on my mind for quite a while. It's been a few years since I participated in that "favorite cover songs" discussion, and that pompous ass's "ruling" that Hendrix wasn't "covering" the song has always bugged me!

I should have known that a mention on Mudcat would have brought me as much information as I'd ever want about the real-life songwriter. I'm glad he's properly identified, and thus probably got his well-earned royalties when the song finally got a high-profile recording. I'm also kinda glad, and not surprised, that he's an old folkie!

Since Jimi was an American, even though he spent time overseas as an Airborne Ranger and then as an expatriate rocker in the UK, I'm sure he first heard it (as I did) in some basement, garage, or high-school gym before he every met The Creation in London...

Is Lonesome EJ freaking out because we're even talking about "Hey Joe"?


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Mar 07 - 11:57 PM

Nah, Pop, I'm reacting to the thread title.

BTW, did Hendrix claim authorship for Hey Joe on Are You Experienced?


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Subject: RE: What IS Folk Music?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Mar 07 - 12:14 AM

Billy Roberts is credited on the "Are You Experienced" album. (I learned that just now by following a chain of links around Wikipedia, starting from the reference offered above by M.Ted.)

heyjoe.org provides three or four pages of very interesting stuff, including the harmonic analysis that the song's repetitive chord structure ~ a straight-ahead "circle of fifths" ~ is something that many guitar players have undoubtedly "written" independenly, each pretty much on his own after learning a few basic chords plus a little bit of elementary music theory


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