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BS: Are you ashamed to be American?
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 17 Mar 02 - 04:17 PM Seems Janet is so ashamed, she hasn't told us where SHE is from, eh? Cheers, How's St. P day going for you all, doing anything you are going to be ashamed of when the weekend is over? Drink lots of water before passing our, sisters and brothers, Slan, Larry |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Butch Date: 17 Mar 02 - 04:47 PM Let me change the way your phrased this. While I am concerned that my nation is not the best it can be, most countries are ever the best they can be. I am sad that we are killing the people of another country and wish it were not so and yet I am happy that many of the citizens there now see freedom of expression to a greater degree than they have been allowed in years under Taliban rule. What of the women who are now free to persue carrers, doctors who can only now heal their fellow citizens and teachers and artists who can do their jobs for the first time. Of these results, I am duly proud. I am also proud that there may be a greater freedom of religion there so that the artifacts of other cultures are no longer destroyed there. All is not yet well, and we may have made some mistakes, but we have also done some good. If you see only black and white, then I feel sorrow for you, the world musst be very disapointing place.
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST Date: 17 Mar 02 - 07:33 PM What a stupid-ass question. Just shows that people around here will respond to virtually any troll that wanders in. Why bother? |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Banjer Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:00 PM Let's just suppose for a minute that we are all at a song circle and a new person who has been attending for only a few sessions asks such a question. How would it be handled there? Would you respond like the GUEST just above or give a more detailed answer? Seems it is just like a song circle here in many ways. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:24 PM So is Janet's split infinitive just a red herring, Judy? (I think InOBU/Larry missed it altogether*G*) Janet, the Zimbabwe farce included defiance of a court ruling and rampant violence; the USA farce was of a lesser order, and fully legitimised by the judiciary. It is facile to equate the two. If double standards are your main concern, you might instead despair that the USA has refused to recognise Mugabe's victory, whereas the same administration is nauseatingly chummy with General Musharref. who didn't even bother with the hypocrisy of an election when he seized power in Pakistan. I should think more than a few American mudcatters were pleased if not proud that it was an American trooper who said, on being asked to sum up his Afghan tour: "Humbling is the word that comes to mind." And after a pause: "I'm not going to complain about much when I get home." |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: YOR Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:32 PM Hell No! What great American was it who said "BITE ME"! Why do you not like America?, because you don't get to live here. Troll or pond scum? Its' a toss up! |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Troll Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:39 PM As the official Mudcat troll, Let me state that I am proud to be an American. There are times when I don't like our policies, but I am never ashamed of who and what I am. troll |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:40 PM YOR, "to live here with the haves" is probably what you meant to say? You're not seriously arguing that life for the have-nots is anything to envy? Or maybe you're still clinging to that bullshit about the opportunities being there for all, as evidenced by that ordinary little drunk, George W, growing up to be president? |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Mar 02 - 09:43 PM No, no...it was Rose DiManno who said "Bite me!" She's a well known Canadian columnist in the Toronto Star, and she was addressing the Ontario premier, Mike Harris, at the time. :-) Good old Rosie...gotta love her! Good old Mike was busy privatizing everything in sight (supposedly to save us all money...Ha!), which almost without exception has resulted in things getting a lot worse than before, when they weren't privatized. He has also devastated the towns and municipalities in Ontario by dumping the financial load on them. As for responding to trolls...well, it can lead to some interesting discussions that the troll in question never anticipated starting sometimes. You have only fallen for a troll if you get angry, IMO. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: richlmo Date: 17 Mar 02 - 10:49 PM I think I am as proud to be American as I have ever been. It seems some people can't remember back to September 11 , when we all saw that the unthinkable can happen. I'm sure that more unthinkable ,horrific events are coming in the near future. Some here in the USA and some other places in the world. Maybe where you are, Janet. Who will you look to for help when your friends and neighbors are slaughtered? Sadaam or Ossama? I didn't vote for Bush, but I am damn glad that he is the one who's there during all this. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: kendall Date: 17 Mar 02 - 10:50 PM "Bite me" was a common expression in the ship when I was in the service back in the 50's. How old is Rose Demmano? Guest, you talk like terrorism ,Like everything that is bad, started under Clinton. In fact, it goes way back. Read up on "17 November" they have killed hundreds of people, some Americans, and they are protected by the Greek government.Every administration, including "The Actor" has done nothing! As Barney Miller used to say, :Let's keep our perspective" |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:21 AM Dear richlmo: Part of the problem is the number of americans who saw Sept. 11 as the unthinkable happining. Among New Yorkers who have been here and there around the world working for social change, rather than visiting hilton hotels, were not surprised. In fact, we saw this kind of thing comming for quite a while. In fact, NYC government saw this kind of thing comming and took the kind of rediculous actions that small numbers of us were offended by, going through people's handbags in office building lobbies etc, while we who saw the problems in the rest of the world called for real change in the way the US did biz around the world as real protection. Let's face it, fundimentalism here and there feeds on poverty. Even fundimental capitalism is supported by scared and poor folks. We have to stop creating conditions which cause people to long for a world without ambiguity and uncertainty. It takes a comfortable soul to be comfortable with the kind of promice of change that liberal democracy promises. That comfort is disapearing in this nation. Let's stop worrying about pride or shame and begin working for a world without hunger and fear, then we can build big buildings again. Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Mar 02 - 12:26 PM Kendall - You have the temerity to suggest that Rosie diManno would ever say anthing not totally original!?? :-) I think she's probably around 50, that's my guess, and she's a feisty one...one of those women who's about 5 feet tall, tough as hell, and determined as a pit bull. I don't always agree with her, but she never fails to be interesting and articulate. I think she said "Bite me" to our detested premier Mike Harris mostly just to be funny and to show her utter contempt for Mikey, who has gutted Ontario during his last 2 terms in office. In his wake, banks and big business are richer...the rich are richer...and everyone else is poorer. The provincial government has created the illusion of "fiscal responsibility" by downloading a huge share of its traditional expenses onto the towns and cities (thus robbing Peter to pay Paul)...conservative doublespeak, nothing more. Mike Harris, of course, is among the rich, and has been since birth, so his policies appear to be extremely enlightened from his own point of view. Canadian thread drift... - LH |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Hamshank Date: 18 Mar 02 - 01:19 PM "Shame on you, Osama, you baaaaad man! We'll let it go this time, but don't ever do something like that again, OK?" Janet, is that what you would have us do? Turn the other cheek? I wonder just how much the United States of America had to do with the freedom YOU enjoy, where ever it is you come from. With a name like Janet, I'm assuming you're not from an Islamic country, unless you married a muslim. If you did, I hope he is a wise, kind, and peaceful person, as millions of his faith are, and not a hateful fanatic who refuses to respect other religions, yet demands that the world respect and embrace his own. At least Americans have a choice. HS |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Kim C Date: 18 Mar 02 - 01:37 PM Am I sometimes befuddled, bewildered, and embarrassed by the things our leaders do? Absolutely. So I vote for someone else the next time. I can do that here. Am I ashamed to be an American? Absolutely NOT. I think it's important to separate the People from the Government. The Government doesn't always represent all the People, and all the People don't necessarily support the Government. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:03 PM (I haven't read the whole thread but am answering the question) - I am not embarrassed to BE american, but am often embarrassed BY americans! |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: SDShad Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:42 PM I think you nailed it square on the head there, Mrrzy. Sign me up for that list. I'm especially embarrased by the ones who paint their doughy torsoes flourescent colors (or colours, everywhere else in the world) and display them at football [sic] games. Doughy torso unpainted and undisplayed, Shad |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Irish sergeant Date: 18 Mar 02 - 02:55 PM HELL NO!!! I don't have to agree with my government and the lovely thing about my nation is I can shout that from the rooftop if I desire. Ashamed to be American? I relish in it and dear guest Janice I find your attempts to malign my country and start an imflamitory post purile, childish and insulting But as I did for 17 years of military service I will defend your right to be a stupid silly little git to the death That is the pride and the stregth of America. That our men and women will do that and will bend over backwards to help those in need. Ask the Afghan women if they enjoy the Taliban regime and what they think of Americans. Good day Madam! |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Joe Fogey Date: 18 Mar 02 - 03:12 PM I heard the Harrods bomb go off in London back in the 80's. Targetted on innocent civilians, planted by the IRA, financed and backed by many Americans, Many Americans (including their government) also backed the Contra terrorists in Nicaragua. America backed Joshua Savimbi and therefore was partly responsible for long and bloody terrorism in Angola. The sad thing is it took till September 11th for the American body politic to discover how awful terrorism can be, because, lets face it, an English or Nicaraguan or Angolan life isn't really worth as much as an American one. I like American culture and music. I like lots of Americans I've met. I just don't trust you lot to rule the world. I'm Cornish. Joe |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: InOBU Date: 18 Mar 02 - 03:39 PM Hi Joe... frankly I think American music is one of our worst exports!!! Cheers, Larry (PS I wont get into the whole American IRA question, other than to say there was much more culpability on the part of the US and British gov. through NATO to create terrorism in Ireland, but that is a huge nother story... Ke navo fellow celtic cuz) |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Mar 02 - 03:40 PM To me, pride and shame are personal things and come as the result of my own volition and my own actions. And, pompous ass that I am, I apply my own principle to others. If I make a good choice and do something fine, brilliant, and beneficial, I can feel proud of my accomplishment. If I totally screw up and cause all kinds of problems, then I have good reason to feel shame. But:— My father's lineage is Scottish, my mother's is Swedish. Am I proud of my lineage? Kind of, in a way, but when it comes down to it, I had nothing to do with it. It was not a matter in which I had any choice, therefore, how can I claim credit for it and be "proud" of the fact? My response to those who loudly trumpet "I'm proud to be (fill in ethnicity or national origin of choice)!" is "That's very nice, but what have you done lately?" Same thing with shame. Why should I, or anyone, feel ashamed of something over which we have no control? I campaign, I write, I yell my head off, and I vote. I didn't vote for Bush and I didn't vote for a lot of the people who got elected this time. Quite apart from how one judges Bush's actions or the actions of the American government in general, why should I, or any other American be ashamed of something over which we personally have little or no control--or of the fact that we were born (through no choice or effort on our own part) in a particular area of the world? The question itself displays the philosophical myopia of the person asking it. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Mar 02 - 03:49 PM Hey, Hamshank, it is a common presumption of some Americans that a whole lot of other people around the world "owe their freedom" to the USA. This is debatable, although there are certainly some examples to support it which one can point to here and there...and there are some examples of the diametrical opposite too. As a Canadian, I would say that I owe my freedom to: 1. My own free will and the courage to use it wisely. 2. The social and political traditions developed by the British Empire over the last few hundred years. 3. The democratic institutions which Canadians later instituted and maintained themselves under their own jurisdiction...on the foundation which the British provided us with. 4. AND...our repelling of several American invasion attempts during the years 1812 to 1814. That pretty well sums it up. As for World War I, World War II and all that...you helped us...and we helped you (the Canadian Navy was the 2nd largest in the world in 1945 and fought very hard in the Battle of the Atlantic. It was a mutual effort. We all defeated the Nazis and Japan together. The USA did not do it alone, though they were the biggest player. Russia was the 2nd biggest player...and sacrificed the most lives in that effort. So...do I owe my freedom to the Russians too? We all shared the burden, and nobody owes anyone anything at this point, except mutual respect and good will. Nevertheless, I understand how you could be irritated by the title of this thread...and it may have been launched precisely to do that...irritate you. Or it may have been launched in all seriousness. Hard to say. If it was launched to irritate people, it sure is working. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: PeteBoom Date: 18 Mar 02 - 03:57 PM Joe, we won't look down on you for that. ;) Many of the things cited that were done by the American Government are indeed deplorable. Then again, many things done by EVERY government have been deplorable. The simple fact is, folks tend to lose perspective when they get in charge and figure the REASON why they are doing something justifies them doing it. So they lie and break laws and lie about breaking laws. Those that do NOT lose perspective get accused of lying and get people digging into their past because NOBODY is really like that. In most Western countries, these actions generally come out into the light of day fairly soon after. It is the totalitarian regimes that get me worried with what they are doing... Actions taken by individual Americans are, many times, done so out of the ignorance that springs from the view of the world they have. Just like most folks. Americans of Irish descent living in the 1920's were often times the children of famine immigrants with a HUGE complaint about the British Government of the 1840's and 50's. Their children received no new information to change that view. Does this justify them sending funds to support any of the alphabet-soup splinter groups that are lumped together as the IRA? Not in my mind. However, many times such funds are raised by conniving, underhanded people who know that most Americans, even those who are "connected", have a hard time sorting out fact from the massive amounts of nonsense they get inundated with. Simply put, they get snookered - they are told the proceeds are for some effort or other when in reality they are going elsewhere. The crime they are committing is being trusting and sometimes being quite elderly. (Having recently needing to explain to my elderly mother that the NEXT time she gets a nice letter and flyer asking for money to help people in Northen Ireland, let one of her kids read the fine print...) Am I ashamed to be an American? No. Do I trust ANYONE to rule the world? Not particularly. Do I have a shortlist of countries I do NOT want to rule the world? You bet. Pete |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Hamshank Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:23 PM LH,
You're absolutely right. I never meant to convey that I thought we yanks were the saviors of the world. We certainly have done our best, but we haven't done it alone. I'm just bloody sick of being slammed because I happen to have been born in the USA, and am therefore, American. I'm damn sure not ashamed of it. Let me just ask again, though, what SHOULD we be doing as a country who sustained such an unthinkable act? Did all those thousands of people in the Twin Towers deserve their fate? Should we just chalk it up to "payback" for our arrogance? I'm not exactly enamoured with the government here, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in the position to have to make the decisions about what to do. All I know is, I'm glad I live in a place where I have freedom of choice. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Victim of IRA Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:05 PM Pete, what dear old confused person sent the shipments of weapons to the IRA. You have gave the weakest excuse why funds are raised for terrorists. Would you accept the same reasoning on the funding Al qaeda gets, some confused muslims. But hey it makes people feel good to accept your excuse, it exonerates them from the act of contributing funds to a terrorist group that murders innocent people, what a patronising head in the ground excuse. "I gave money to the cause but I did not really know what the cause was" "Oh it was used to fund the IRA" "Who are the IRA again?" Are Americans that stupid?
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Victim of IRA Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:34 PM Pete, I forgot to mention, could some of the connived funds been used towards the travel and costs of the dear old Irish boys who went to Colombia, anyway with the drugs they get they can fund their terrorism without the money of old confused Americans. BTW is FARC an organisation that is friendly to the US? Wake up smell the coffee. How much of an uproar would there be in America if the British Gov. passed a law to allow fund raising for Al qaeda? Would you like it if we allow one of Bin Ladens associates to lead a parade in the UK, convicted terrorists are allowed to in America, how conducive is that to the teachings of the WELSH born St.Patrick. I think it is total hypocrisy and I am grateful that the NY Police and Firefighters boycotted the parade. It is such a pity that over 2800 innocent people had to die to show America what terrorists are capable off. Still funds are being raised, give us a break in Ireland stop the funding of all Irish political/terrorist organisations and save lives or at least do not have deaths of innocent people on your conscience, St.Patrick preached peace do not let others use him to get funds for murder. A terrorist is a terrorist Irish or Arab or American. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: PeteBoom Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:44 PM What? I said raising funds for the IRA was a good idea? You don't know me at all. go bugger yourself. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Jeri Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:50 PM It's a troll, Pete. Of course it's going to deliberately misread what you wrote in order to get up your nose. The whole premise of this thread is silly, anyway, but I guess it gives people something to talk about. I believe if I'm ashamed, it should be of something I've done, not who or what I am. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Victim of IRA Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:17 PM Pete it was your lame ass excuse poor wee old ladies conived into giving money. Utter nonsense but from your reply I have to ask, are you one of the people that you just mentioned. I did not say you advocate raising funds for the IRA what I said was your agruement was weak. Why not admit it and say people from your country have willingly and knowingly gave money to support the IRA.
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Rustic Rebel Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:19 PM Janet,1st I see you haven't been back for awhile to comment on your thread. Perhaps you are trolling along. That doesn't matter but I do wonder where you are from simply because of the fact that America's people are of all descent. Maybe it was your ancestral stock that started to fuck things up in the first place. Another thing I would like to add, what is this cop out thing of "don't blame me, I didn't vote for him"? So does that mean you can just sit back and let the government take over if they choose? Nuke countries at free will? Invade our homes and take away our rights? If it wasn't for people constantly ralling to preserve our rights, this shit would be happening.So all I am saying is even though I voted for Nader, I still have to take some responsibility as an American to maintain my way of life. I will now step off my soap-box and hope I didn't offend too many people out there. Spaw you always make me laugh! Rustic(with loaded guns in closet to fight off any nazi-commie fuck trying to take me away!) P.S. Ashamed to be an American? No, I suppose I'm not. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: DougR Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:22 PM Hear, hear, Jeri! DougR |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Benjamin Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:31 PM Janet, why don't you go dig up some dirt on your own country! It's there! Before you go critizing us over the Zimbabwean situation, you might want to check out for yourself what's really going on. Try here and here! America is far from perfect, but it's still the best country around. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Benjamin Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:38 PM Sorry, on the second link, click on Monitoring Zanu PF violence. For more information, try searching on google for Robert Mugabe and/or Morgan Tsvangirai. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Irish sergeant Date: 18 Mar 02 - 08:44 PM I might state that not all Americans niaively donate to things such as Northern Aid. Are there people in this country that have certainly just as there were those who donated to the German Bund between the world wars. We're not perfect never claimed to be at least this American didn't. Nor did we claim to save the world by ourselves. There is more than enough BS going on in the world. I do however take issue with the idea that I should be ashamed of my nationality because Guest Janice doen't agree with my governments (Read current administration's) Policies. I never bought into the idea of collective guilt and rather figured that anyone who does is a pea wit. I will be judged on my merits as a person and my actions not by those of my government. If you can not do that kindly piss up a rope. I'm going to a music thread. That is why I am here after all. Neil |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:07 PM Benjamin, so the US tough on Mugabe. It was tough on Musharref (well slightly) until its own self-interest intervened. Musharref of course didn't bother with elections, fair or otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Victim of IRA Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:10 PM Asking people if they are ashamed of being American serves no purpose but to insult and anger people and evades real issues and underminds the good America has done such as sending their young to fight in the Gulf War, which benefited all our countries and that is something to be proud off. The US Government does not ask the approval of its people on every issue, GuestJanet should wait and see if Bush gets re-elected before she writes off the American people, and yes I may not like the head in the sand attitude to IRA funding, I have to admit that America does more good than harm and on that issue what is there to be ashamed off - trying to keep world peace- how can people be ashamed off that? But America has to admit to its failings in doing so that would be something to be proud off. BTW I originally came here looking for words to a song |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Greg F. Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:19 PM just as there were those who donated to the German Bund Intersting you should bring this up- in light of Dumbya's Grandaddy Prescott's activities (and proclivities). |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: The Pooka Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:22 PM Guest, I am truly sorry that you are a victim. There have been far far too many victims. Please God, may there be no more. Click here EXECUTIVE ORDER 13224 - BLOCKING PROPERTY AND PROHIBITING TRANSACTIONS WITH PERSONS WHO COMMIT, THREATEN TO COMMIT, OR SUPPORT TERRORISM (Among the many, many terrorist organizations listed, for whom US fundraising is banned and US assets blocked pursuant thereto, are: ) REAL IRA (a.k.a. 32 COUNTY SOVEREIGNTY COMMITTEE; a.k.a. 32 COUNTY SOVEREIGNTY MOVEMENT; a.k.a. IRISH REPUBLICAN PRISONERS WELFARE ASSOCIATION; a.k.a. REAL IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY; a.k.a. REAL OGLAIGH NA HEIREANN; a.k.a. RIRA) CONTINUITY IRA (CIRA) RED HAND DEFENDERS (RHD) LOYALIST VOLUNTEER FORCE (LVF) ULSTER DEFENCE ASSOCIATION (a.k.a. Ulster Freedom Fighters) ORANGE VOLUNTEERS This information comes to you from a political supporter of Irish republicanism who respects political supporters of Ulster unionism; and who, admitting her many failings, is still unabashedly proud to be an American. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: The Pooka Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:28 PM But on a less-lofty note: Whoaaaa, Greg F.! Prescott Bush was U.S. Senator from my state, & in my lifetime; and I didn't know that -- if I infer correctly from your post. Not that (I'm sure you would agree) the sins of the grandfathers are necessarily to be visited upon the dumbarse grandsons; but -- will you relate? Wot's the story? |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Benjamin Date: 18 Mar 02 - 09:50 PM Fionn, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. But I feel that GUEST'Janet's post undermines the seriousness of the situation that's at hand. Musharref has nothing to do with it. Also, I'm not sure that this matters, but both links I provided are to organizations outside America. You can look at them too if you'd like. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,Victim of IRA Date: 18 Mar 02 - 10:02 PM Pooka, The organisations you listed have as much to offer the world as Al qaeda and Bin Laden has and that is only death to the innocents of the world. It saddens me that Sept11 was a precursor to the Executive Order and I am grateful that people have turned their backs on such fund raisers, but it still occurs. We are not some wee country to patronised on St.Paddys day and get the emotions going about poor ol Ireland,having terrorists at the head of the St.Patricks parade make me wonder if American people want to see peace in Ireland. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: The Pooka Date: 18 Mar 02 - 10:30 PM Guest, I agree with absolutely everything you said, with the sole exception of your doubt as to whether the American people want to see peace in Ireland. We do. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Coyote Breath Date: 18 Mar 02 - 10:43 PM Well no, actually. CB |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Greg F. Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:11 PM Pooka-
No big secret about Prescott Bush's ties to Nazi Germany. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: SharonA Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:42 PM Haven't read through this thread yet, but I notice that "GUEST, Janet" didn't say where she was from. I wonder if she was ashamed to mention it. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: SharonA Date: 19 Mar 02 - 06:50 PM By the way, I am a citizen of the United States and, though I'm ashamed of some other United States citizens, I am not ashamed to be a United States citizen. As many terrible things as have been done by the US government, I am still proud of all the good things America and Americans have done. Besides, it's an awfully pretty country (the parts of it that haven't been paved over, that is)! |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: The Pooka Date: 19 Mar 02 - 08:22 PM Greg F, thank you; most interesting, indeed. I will also look up the more, as you put it, "mainstream" sources. (D'jever read the contemporaneous 1960's book entitled "A Texan Looks at Lyndon"? Really gave the lowdown on LBJ, lemme tellya.) You were also, I presume, no fan of JFK, right? Y'know, given his old man's well-known admiration of Hitler which got him Yanked (sorry) out of the Court of St. James by FDR. Of course Joe Kennedy's sons did serve (on our side)in WWII; but then so did George Haitch-Dubya Bush so that doesn't prove anything. Cover, probably. Anyway, I heard "41"'s war-hero story, shot down over the Pacific, was phony and he let his co-pilot drown to save his own ass. Hm. Bet there's plenty that's fishy about that PT-109 stuff, too. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: GUEST,flora Date: 19 Mar 02 - 09:46 PM Aaaaargh! Nationalism, the curse of humanism. (Before I begin - I'm not American. Please read this through before yelling at me!) Quite a few people here have said they're not ashamed to be an American, but are ashamed of some Americans - and rightly so. There is some shockingly cruel, brutal and ignorant behaviour exhibited, by some Americans, and some behaviour that is nothing short of perfect, wonderful and kind. I also am ashamed of some Americans, and I am also hugely proud of some. Now take those sentences and add in any national group in the world (or ethnic group or whatever) and - guess what - it would still hold true! I am ashamed on behalf of the human race for evil things that are done, but it seems meaningless to divide between humanity on account of an accident of birth. Don Firth - you are right; philosophically speaking, it makes no sense to be ashamed of one's own government. However, I have been ashamed of things the British government have done, because they have been done in my name. Because these things have been done in my name, I therefore feel a need to distance myself from them and to state that I do not agree with them, and I am grateful that I can do this. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: Rolfyboy6 Date: 20 Mar 02 - 12:34 AM No, but I don't get real jacked up about it either. The guys wrapped up in flags are usually scoundrels. |
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Subject: RE: Are you ashamed to be American? From: JudyR Date: 20 Mar 02 - 01:04 AM How true. The English woman (Guest/Janet) still hasn't been back to tell us what she is ashamed of about [i]her[/i] country, the monarachy, and various other British issues. You do get that she's English, correct? Or again -- do the Irish and Scots say "whilst?" |