the english and irish traditions

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:06 PM

I've read that Ewan MacColl at his folk club enforced a policy that no one could sing a song in a language they didn't actually speak.
Incorrect, but I will leave it to Jim Carroll, to explain what the policy really was.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 07:47 PM

Oh dear, oh dear.
You just keep falling for it don't you? He just pitches them in and you all swing for it. This is why mudcat is a laughing stock. All the useful, serious stuff is buried under this ridiculous reactionary shite.
What a shame, I'm so glad I left.
Martin

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 08:03 PM

Martin, perhaps you could clarify, who you are talking about, and what is ridiculous reactionary shite?
And what do you consider useful serious useful stuff

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Mar 12 - 09:15 PM

We all keep falling for you, Dick. It must be your svelte charm...

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 05:00 AM

If people do not wish to discuss a topic on this forum they are not forced to.
To come on to a Forum and insult it and the posters as Martin has done is bad mannered,rude and uncalled for.
I can only assume he came back from the pub , having drunk too much, I take exception to posts being called reactionary shite, I also find it insulting to this forum, which is a forum that contains many knowledgeable people, and is a wonderful source of songs and knowledge, that he calls it a laughing stock, the very least he can do is apologise,
I might add that this is not the first occasion that Martin Ellison has come on here and been insulting.
Steve, you cannot leave off having a go at me can you.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: johncharles
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:37 AM

starting a thread, using a quote from another discussion forum, which in the originators opinion is "erroneous nonsense" and "flaming" seems rather strange.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 06:56 AM

Not the first time Dick's done it, mate. AND with a quote from the same bloke. You do have to ask...

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:07 AM

no its not strange to me I wanted to discuss the statement on this forum in a an adult way, this is rather difficult on www.session.org
I chose this forum because it is moderated very regularly, and because personal attacks are not tolerated by the moderators.
you do not have to ask ..unless you are intent on having a go at me, Steve, which you clearly are.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 09:57 AM

Dick - it was an expression of exasperation rather than an purposeful attempt to insult someone. Might have been better phrased, sorry.

I just don't get these discussions, don't understand how they engender rational exchanges of opinions. However, they do seem to run and run so I'll hold my hand up, apologise if it's needed, but say that it must be just me that finds it difficult to follow the core discussion in amongst all the irrelevances. So I'll leave (again) quietly.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:19 AM

I'm saying that it's odd that you have a rather strange habit of bringing stuff over here "to discuss" when it's something that you disagree with Llig about. Especially when you consider all the spats you've had with him! If the people over here were aware of this background issue they wouldn't be half so keen to talk about it with you, would they now?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:40 AM

I don't read that other forum, so I wouldn't have run across that question. Redundancy may be annoying for those who read similar discussions on several venues, but for someone who doesn't cross platforms, the argument about the other location is a distraction. Will you allow that this is true? It diminishes the intended conversation here, whatever the motivation for plucking one remark to bring over here to put under the microscope.

Personally I don't have a dog in that fight - English and Irish folk tradition and their brokenness or not - they exist today as what they are, and what exists today is perfectly valid, whether there have been breaks in continuity or not. Certain things exist even if they're not overtly present - perhaps a correlation would be the Russian Orthodox religious tradition in the old USSR - when all such practice was supposedly suppressed for decades. The absence of overt practice may have served to hamstring the religion, but it didn't go away. I don't know what method the writer of the first statement thinks "broke" the English tradition, but I grew up with an American Folksinger who collected early English, Irish, Scottish and American folk songs and ballads. We were able to distinguish the origins, or does what Americans do with all of these British Isles songs make a difference to those of you still on the old sod?

SRS

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 10:41 AM

I wanted to discuss the statement on this forum in a an adult way, this is rather difficult on www.session.org

It's even more difficult when the person you have a beef with doesn't read this forum and accordingly can't respond to what you're saying. But that's the idea, isn't it?

llig on thesession is adult enough not to hide behind ever-changing pseudonyms.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:14 AM

the idea is to discuss the statement without prejudice,without prejudice,
If people know the stATement was made by a peson with a reputation for flaming trolling and provocative comments it can alter the members perspective of the comment, that is why I did not wish to mention the persons name so that other people can judge the statement purely on its merits.
I can post on the Session under my partners name or my own name,I choose not to post there because of people like steve and llig.
I do occasionally read the posts, being interested in english and irish folk music, i read the thread, and was not thrilled to see English music being rubbished, hence I posted here.
Steve seems to have an obsession about me, sometime ago on the session he accused some poor woman from middleton who was taking up the harmonica because she had an injury of being me,is that not so Steve?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:22 AM

Huh?

Llig is certainly provocative and I reckon he'd take that as a compliment. But he's no flamer or troller, Dick. Your main problem is that he makes mincemeat out of you. This is not an honest thread, Dick. Kudos to those who have made constructive contributions in spite of that.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: johncharles
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:32 AM

whether one form is music better than another is an opinion an no amount of rational argument will solve that one. The issues of continuity and revival are ones for the historians, but my limited knowledge suggests that England has a longer history in terms of preserving records of what had been an oral tradition, for far longer than any Irish attempts to do so.
Middle class values do seem to permeate the folk scene, good thing too otherwise many of us would get booed off stage rather than the polite clap of hands which is the norm.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:35 AM

What is the name Jack Campin if it is not a PSEUDONYM.
THIS REALLY IS GETTING RIDICULOUS.
Steve, answer my question, did you or did you not accuse a poster[Who incidentally turns out to be a woman from middleton] on the session of being me]you are either stalking me or you are obsessed.
I am sorry but I am involved in running 2 festivals as well as preparing to do a weeks gigs next week, I cant waste time on this nonsense

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 11:48 AM

What is the name Jack Campin if it is not a PSEUDONYM

It's the name on my passport.

Does your passport say Good Soldier Schweik or any of the names you've used on TheSession?

---

ENOUGH ALREADY! The thread has to do with the English vs Irish tradition and their broken (or not) continuity. Any more personal attacks or discussion of whose name is real or legitimate will be deleted. All of the parties here know who they are speaking to, and that is sufficient. -- annoyed Mud Elf

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 01:49 PM

I am not sure what middle class values are in this context, I have found that many people from both the upper class and from working class [those people that do manual work]still have good manners.
there is a tradition in working mens clubs in the midlands and north of bad manners towards performers, but that does not mean that all upper class and working class people who enjoy other forms of music are rude, people who attend classical concerts are generally polite and they are not all middle class, people who attend jazz concerts or country concerts are generally polite.
in ireland in my experience there is more respect for musical performers from all classes, than there is in England, The working mens club culture has not permeated the irish working class.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,fleadh recorder
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 01:51 PM

This isn't trolling, but GSS cited a particular musician as being an All-Ireland champion. The person he named does not appear on the Wikipedia list (which I maintain) which I cited earlier. So may I ask a simple question of him, please? When did Madeleine O'Dowd win an All-Ireland title? If she did, please can he supply evidence of this?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 01:58 PM

Well, Dick, the idea is that if you're any good you'll do well in the clubs, and if you're crap or pretentious you'll bomb. That particular law of the jungle spawned some of the greatest entertainers we have had for many decades. Speaking as a born 'n' bred northerner, you understand.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: johncharles
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 02:13 PM

Aye its tough up't north tha knows and i should I live there

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:00 PM

"fleadh recorder" - I don't doubt "GSS" when he says that the lady in question won an All-Ireland title playing an English concertina, as opposed to the more common Anglo, but there's a lot of information being left out. It would seem not to be in the Senior category which is what your "Wikipedia" list concentrates on, so what age-group was it, which year, and maybe more importantly, how many competitiors were there? Was it more than 1 ? Did she win in solo competition, or as part of a duo, trio, or even ceili band ? We're not being told.
Apologies for diversifying from the thread, but it was "GSS" who brought it up, and I am genuinely interested. If no answers are forthcoming here, I'll make a query with Comhaltas, because it's such an unusual - if not unique - occurence.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 03:09 PM

I suggest you contact Nicholas Carolan, he would have a record of her she appeared in one of the archive programmes, alternatively contact my friend, stephen chambers who has a music shop in clare he knows madeline personally,in fact he repaired a william scates concetina for her relatively recently

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:14 PM

Thank you for those suggestions "GSS". Neither Nicholas Carolan, nor Stephen Chambers are necessarily going to know the details of her winning a Comhaltas competition. But I can't help but wonder - you were the guy who brought up her name in this discussion. Don't you know the circumstances of her winning her All-Ireland medal ?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 12 - 04:25 PM

I do. good night.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 06:13 AM

Then please share that knowledge.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:14 AM

On second thoughts, don't bother.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,fleadh recorder
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 02:36 PM

The reply from GSS re. Madeleine O'Dowd is extremely unhelpful.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 03:00 PM

Google appears to suggest that nobody but Dick Miles and Dick Glasgow have ever heard of her and that Dick Miles is the sole source for the claim that she ever won anything.

Ptarmigan, if you know something, pipe up?

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 03:33 PM

I suggest you contact Alan Day, he spoke to her in the course of compiling English International, my memory for dates is not perfect, so I do not want to quote a date.
I understood it was 15 to 18 group.
Bearing in mind someone will have ago at me, for quoting the wrong date, I reckon it was late seventies, she used to play in a group with her siblings[sisters I think]

I am not making anything up, I have suggested you contact Nic Carolan or Stephen Chambers.
Jack you are quite right I am the sole source on the net for saying she won anything.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,fleadh recorder
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 04:33 PM

Thanks.

So she was not a Senior All-Ireland champion. That's finally sorted.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 06:15 PM

guest fleadh,
she was an all ireland champion, maybe it was senior, why dont you find out for yourself. she lives in limerick

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:02 PM

however it matters little,senior all ireland or 15 to 18 all ireland.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 12:53 PM

It seems to me that there's a great deal of attention been given here to something that no longer represents Irish music (if it ever did), Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann and its competitions.
One of the most influential figures in the promotion of Irish music, Breandan Breathnach, once described CCE as "an organisation with a great future behind it" – that seems to me to be a fair description of Comhaltas's role nowadays.
The 'glittering prizes' approach to Irish music taken by CCE produced an animal that was neither fish nor fowl and had little to do with what was played (and in particular), sung when the tradition was in full flight.
Twenty odd years ago a musician going into a pub with an instrument case ran the risk of being thrown out on his or her ear – if you started singing they fetched the Guards to run you out of town – the music was publicly derided and pilloried by the media as 'diddley-di" - certainly no longer the case.
Over the last ten/fifteen years youngsters have flocked to the music, not, as was once the case, for the glittering prizes, but for the love of the music and the pleasure it brings
Not before time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 01:17 PM

Unfortunately some of the Comhaltas competitors who describe them selves as musicians, carry this competitive attitude into sessions.
I agree with Jim, it is a much better ideal to play music purely for the love of it,
in my opinion it does not necessarily mean because someone gets paid for playing music that their love for it disappears, although it can occur that paid musicians get jaded because they feel obliged to take a paid gig,and their playing can become stale because they need the money.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 02:07 PM

'Twenty odd years ago a musician going into a pub with an instrument case ran the risk of being thrown out on his or her ear – if you started singing they fetched the Guards to run you out of town – the music was publicly derided and pilloried by the media as 'diddley-di" - certainly no longer the case.'

Utter bollocks.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 04:27 PM

"Utter bollocks. "
What you wrote certainly is - you really need to get out more.
The 'diddley di quote" is attributed widely to Gay Byrne, who is still trying to live it down, and the reception that fiddle players got, particularly in places like Dublin, is more than well known and is quoted regularly on TV interviews and documentaries.
I'd stick to your anonymity if I were you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 06:11 PM

Jim, it sounds like our friend, who writes the pot boilers, he spends some of his time in Leitrim.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 07:32 PM

Er, Dick, you do seem to be something of an aficionado of the competitions, if my memory serves me well.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: ollaimh
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 10:31 AM

early on stallion was right on saying english folk tries to swallow other traditions and american folk is trying to swallow the world. it's caslled cultural appropriation folks. it's a sociological kind of racist imperialiam. it wouldn't be if nthe anglo(and in my experisnce germasnic) folies were preserving other tradition but they seem to inevitably want to lead the "new? folk tradition. bourgeoise look nat the world and see adminstrator and cop as a great job.

scots and nitish gael traditions havn't needed leaders, just as music doesn't need leaders. scots and irish gael traditionsn are intrinsickly led from withing by talent and instrumental brilliance. this highlights the nonsense of the well organized anglo acedemic tradition and folk clubs. they have used the organization so that the talent free and instrumentally challenged can be on top. when i go to these things i am usually the best instrumentalist there--all across north america. i am a piker in the celtic scene, average at best. however in the celtic scene they turn to a piker like me every night and say"lets hear one of nyours" in the amnglo folk scene you have to navigate the bureaucracy to get to sing. i was tols at the singer club , some forty year ago i shouldn't sing in galeic as they did music from their own culture.(thosae guys had no idea of the spread of the gaeltacht, but they knew how to be in charge), for several years i singed up to sing at the vancouver folk song society. i was first or second to sign up for eight consecutive weeks at one point , but never got to perform.

i will say this isn't monoilithic. it the cecil sharpe i visited on vacation and was asked to sing(and i didn't have an instrument with me) and they were very nice. the nexy tripo they had a may day highlighting some of the best instrumentalists i have ever heard. so maybe it's nchanging. however the acedemic folk collectors and the singer club clones don't seem to have changed. basil fawlty's in ever direction

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: GUEST,fleadh recorder
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 12:31 PM

The anonymous guest above was me. I made my comment about Jim Carroll's post because I think he's got his dates wrong. Twenty odd years ago is 1992.

I've been playing fiddle at sessions since 1978 and I've never once heard of or witnessed anybody being asked to leave a pub because they were carrying an instrument case. However, I am aware that this did happen in the early 1970s. I studied and played sessions in Dublin and Galway, lived in Clare for a while and am now in Westmeath. I have never lived in Leitrim.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 03:44 PM

My apologies FH - you are almost certainly right; it was probably near 30 years (how time flies)
We've talked (and recorded) numerous musicians who have been turned out of pubs when they tried to start a session, and we can remember when the only music on offer was C&W and 'ballads nightly"
There were exceptions of course - West Clare (where we now live) has always had good sessions, certainly from the late sixties. We've been recording singers and musicians here since 1972
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 07:57 PM

I've never once heard of or witnessed anybody being asked to leave a pub because they were carrying an instrument case.

Mebbe not, but in my time I've told at least three bodhran-bearers to piss off. And I will not apologise.

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 03:55 AM

"but in my time I've told at least three bodhran-bearers to piss off."
Will you marry me and have my babies???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: the english and irish traditions
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 12 - 04:48 AM

Can't, Jim. I had the snip years ago. Down, girls...