Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 08:08 PM

My favourite is "Did you peel John, Ken?".

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: toadfrog
Date: 02 Apr 01 - 10:43 PM

Actually, the commonly known "John Peel" is a parody of an old song Belle Stuart used to sing:

Do ye ken John Peel, aye I ken him a fu' weel.
Sleeps wi' his wife and he cannae get a feel.
Sleeps on his side and he cannae get a ride,
And he rises with a horn in the morning.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: JudeL
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 05:25 AM

According to a 40 year old copy of "the readers encyclopedia" the old english hunting song "Do you ken John Peel" was one of the songs echoed throughout "Finnegan's Wake" by James Joyce

Also in that book it says that Sir Robert Peel (1788-1850) English statesman. First lord of treasury, chancellor of exchequer, and prime minister. Reorganised Bank of England, initiated reforms in Ireland, supported free trade and emancipation of the Jews. As cheif secretary for Ireland(1812-1818) he instituted the Irish constabulary, from which came the nickname "peelers", afterwards also applied to the London police, who are also called "bobbies". - all in all sounds like he stuck his finger in a lot of pies.
Jude

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 03 Apr 01 - 10:41 AM

toadfrog, please let us see your proof that Belle Stewart's [sic] song is older.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Apr 01 - 03:00 AM

Bill D, I rememer that old Pepsi commercial a bit differently: Pepsi Cola hit's the spot, 12 full ounces and that's a lot, twice as much for a nickel too, Pepsi Cola is the drink for you! I doubt, though, John Peel, endorsed Pepsi. :>) DougR

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 04:02 AM

what is Joesph Johns the bushranger nicknames

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,wickedlad
Date: 13 Jun 01 - 10:58 PM

heres a early version and tune of John Peal http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/english/doyekenj.htm

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: pavane
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 04:24 AM

I play Ty Coch Caerdydd (Red House of Cardiff), which I learned from Mick Tems of Callenig, and it is nothing like what I remember of the tune for John Peel.

I also recall the existence a rugby song which goes to the tune of John Peel. But the only words I can remember are 'And he can't get it out with a corkscrew'

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: IanC
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 05:01 AM

D'ye ken John Peel
With his p***k of steel
And his b***s of brass
And his sandpaper a***e ...

It'll prolly be on one of the "Rugby Songs" sites.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 06:11 AM

If ya dinna ken him afore this thread ye certainly ken him the noo!
RtS (apologies to ljc)

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 09:36 AM

As it happens, we played both Playford's Red House and Ty Coch Caerdydd at the pub last night.  The point of Anne Gilchrist's article referred to above was to illustrate the evolution of the tune from its earliest appearance in print (Playford, 1706) to, in one branch, the Welsh variant printed in Alawon Fy Ngwlad (c.1896) -where it has changed very little, though it is now a straight major rather than modal tune- and, in another, via Whaur would bonnie Annie (or, our Guidman) lie, to the tune to which Graves wrote John Peel.  A brief quote from Miss Gilchrist:

"For many years after Peel's death in 1854, Graves's song was only locally known, being 'droned over monotonously' to the third part (refrain) of the tune -to which it is still confined in popular use.  But about 1868, William Metcalfe of Carlisle" [the organist referred to earlier by Graham Pirt] "tracked down the original first strain, and published it (a good deal modernised) in that year.  In May, 1869, he was invited to sing his version at the annual dinner in London of the Cumberland Benevolent Institution... From having been current in local circles only, Metcalfe's... modernized form...gave it a fillip which ended in its becoming known not only in hunting circles but at social, festive and dance gatherings all over the world where the English tongue is spoken..."  -Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, 1941.

The musical examples given by Miss Gilchrist (who knew what she was talking about) clearly illustrate the links.  Since she wrote, however, John Peel has largely reverted to being sung just to the tune of the chorus, so the connection between it and its relatives will not be so apparant to the ear.  It's still discernible there, though, if you listen for it.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 14 Jun 01 - 02:28 PM

John Peel hunted with the Blethcara Hunt in the Cumberland Fells. The hunt is still extant and still hunts on foot, as it always has done and hopefully, (Smarmy Bliar and his Guardianistas not withstanding) always will do. BTW Ferrara, the hunting on foot has nothing to do with Social Standing but more with the bloody steep hills they hunt over!!! It would kill the horses!

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 02:16 PM

i always thought this would be the tune to carry forward the legend of Dan Quayle. maybe not

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: pavane
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 05:44 PM

Am I right in thinking that it is with Beagle Hounds that you hunt on foot?

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 06:33 PM

George John Whyte-Melville (1821-1878), has a brief biography in The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 11th Ed. He was a grandson on his mother's side of the 5th Duke of Leeds and educated at Eton. He bacame Capt. Coldstream Guards in 1846 and resigned in 1849. [So much for the statement that he was not of the upper classes]. He translated Horace in 1850 and became a novelist. "The unflagging verve and intimate technical knowledge with which he described sporting scenes and sporting characters at once drew attention to him as a novelist with a new vein. He was the laurate of fox-hunting..." During the Crimean War, he was a volunteer Major. He wrote novels until his death. "By a strange accident he met his death in the hunting field... the hero of many a stiff ride meeting his fate in galloping quietly over an ordinary ploughed field in the Vale of the White Horse. "He exerted a considerable and a wholesome influence on the manners and morals of the gilded youth of his time." This is the authentic John Peel.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: John J at home
Date: 16 Jun 01 - 06:48 PM

If you visit the Salutation Inn, in Threlkeld, near Keswick, Cumbria (that's in England you know), they may be able to provide information 'from the ground'. There is a picture on the side of the pub of John Peel (I'm pretty sure, but wise to check before travelling) on foot, leading the Blencathra foxhounds. Wonderful picture, good beer, good food at sensible prices...in fact a proper pub without plastic. They do occassionally have piped music, but it's often traditional English.

John

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Jack The Lad
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 03:35 PM

Ian C, pavane, his a-se was corrugated in my school- otherwise much the same constitution.

.......and he's lying on the grass, with a bullet up his a-se, and he's trying to get it out with a corkscrew.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,On the hop
Date: 17 Jun 01 - 05:53 PM

John Peel was the leader of the calderbeck hunt in Cumbria.He was known for being a down to earth working class chap and having no time for the pomp and cermony normaly associated with fox hunts.This is high lighted in the song hence his coat is 'hodden gray' not the usual red huntsmans jacket.He was also reputed to be very ugly !The songs 'John Peel' and 'The Horn of the Hunter' are just two of a huge number of Fox Hunting songs from Cumbria were such hunts and Cock fighting were huge local pastimes.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 18 Jun 01 - 06:51 PM

Maybe I didn't pay enough attention, but somehow it still escapes me how George John Whyte-Melville came to be called John Peel in the song. Was it his pen-name, or nickname, or what? I gather both authorship and the fact that it was written in honour of Whyte-Melville are proven, so why 'John Peel'?

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From:
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:21 AM

All It is good to see that John peel can keep a forum running for two years, For those interested, my ancestors married his sister and his granddaughter, The Mattinsons of Caldbeck.

I can also confirm that the song and tune is the anthem of the Border Regiment in Cumbria, in which I served.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:29 AM

Found these references to pages on John Peel - a cursory glance seems to suggest they are quite comprehensive.

Rana

John Peel - the man, the song

I got above from this page (which even references Mudcat

Another John Peel Page

Sorry if someone else has also referenced them - just quickly glanced at the thread

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:56 PM

Many thanks, Rana. Both links look rather interesting, though the second one gives the words as 'with his coat so gay'. Have only dipped in, though.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Shields Folk
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 07:59 PM

Its also the song of Carlisle United fans.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 08:15 PM

Thanks for the links.  At the moment I'm assuming that the reference to Whyte-Melville is an irrelevant distraction quoted from somebody who didn't know what they were talking about -I think that Anne Gilchrist would have mentioned it if it had any basis in fact- but I may be completely wrong; can anybody confirm that, one way or the other?

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Dicho
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 09:52 PM

Thanks, Rana, for the link to the real origin of John Peel. I followed up on the story in "The American Song Treasury" which puts John Peel in Whyte-Melville's clothes and is surely wrong. Probably the popularity of Whyte-Melville novels about sporting led to the mistake.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Jun 01 - 10:04 PM

Thanks for confirming that, Dicho.  Let's hope that's another myth securely laid to rest!

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 01 - 03:46 PM

John Peel is not White Mellvile , Peel never travelled much further than Gretna Green and white never got to Cumberland > the Blencathra Foxhounds were formed long after Peels death as John Crozier purchased two hounds a dog called Briton and a bitch called Cruel and they hunted with the Threlkeld Hounds which in 1870 were renamed the Blencathra . the pictures outside the Salutation inn are of Johnny Richardson (huntsman 1949-1988) and Barry Todhunter (whipper in 1973- 1988 and huntsman 1988 to present)

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From:
Date: 18 Dec 01 - 02:03 AM

I have enjoyed reading about john peel. I have 35 wedgewood dishes that have the hunt scene on the front, john peel 1829, and picture on the back. now i know the song to go with it

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Mark Campbell
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 07:54 PM

I just stumbled on this thread after discovering the Peel Pepsi link on "Recording/Broadcasting technology time line".

I headed for Mudcat to investigate.

My band Tursacan may do an "amalgam" version of John Peel, its precursors and offshoots. To a compound time signature or two of course (not to mention as much Gaelic and Welsh as we can cobble together from the linked songs).

I can feel the "purists" and the ethnomusicologist dryreaching from here. So be it!

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 08:14 PM

The song should be a good one to have fun with. It used to be sung by grade school kids so everybody knew it and most of us had heard parodies. (But that was was a long time ago- do they still sing it?) This was in the States and I presume that it was even more popular in the British Isles. It should be easy to get the audience involved.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:05 PM

What is this Red House at JCs? Is this the one Malcolm reffered to above. It sounds pretty much like a minor version of Ty Coch to me. Not doing too well with hearing a John Peel connection at the moment though.

Jon

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:14 PM

Say, rather, that Ty Coch is a later, major key version of Red House. Since this has surfaced again, I'll post tunes for comparison later on if I have time.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 28 Feb 02 - 09:37 PM

Yes please Malcom Douglas

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 06:34 AM

The following midis are made from the notation given in Anne G. Gilchrist's article, The Evolution of a Tune: "Red House" and "John Peel" (Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, vol.IV, no.2, 1941).

1. Red House  -from Playford's Dancing Master (1706).  The tune first appeared in the edition of 1695 in a slightly different form.

2. Where Will Our Goodman Laye  -from Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion for the Flute, vol.II, c.1750.

3. Tycoch Caerdydd (The Red House of Cardiff)  -from Alawon Fy Ngwlad, c.1896.  Described as a pib-ddawns (pipe-dance).

4. John Peel  -W. Metcalfe's version, 1868.  This is referred to in more detail above; bear in mind that the tune usually used nowadays is just the third part (refrain) of the original.

Subject: Lyr Add: JOE BOWMAN
From: running.hare
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 05:36 PM

"The Horn of the Hunter" (Otherwise known as "For Forty Long Years") is indeed about John Peel. Joe Bowman was another fell hunter, of a similar period, and also has had songs written about him.
------------------

JOE BOWMAN
~~~~~~~~~~

Down at Howtown we met with Joe Bowman at dawn,
The grey hills echo back the glad sound of the horn;
The charm of its note sent the mist far away,
Or a fox from it's lair at the dawn of the day.

CHO: When the fire's on the hearth and good cheers above,
We'll drink to Joe Bowman and his Ullswater hounds,
For we nay shall forget how he woke us at dawn,
With the crack of his whip, and the sound of his horn.

Now with steps that were light and with hearts beating gay,
To a right smittle spot we are hastened away,
The voice of Joe Bowman, how it rang like a bell,
As he cast off his hounds by the side of Swath Fell.

The shout of the hunters it startled the stag,
As the Fox came to view at that lofty Brock Crag,
Tally-ho cried Joe Bowman those hounds are away,
O'er the hills let us follow their musical bay.

Master Raynard being anxious his brush for to keep.
So he followed the winds of the mountains so steep,
Past the deep silent Tarn to a bright running beck,
Where he thought by his cunning he'd give us a check.

Now he took us o'er Kitsty - we held to his track,
As we hunted my lads, with the Ullswater pack.
Who caught up their fox and effected a kill
by the silvery streams of the bonny Rams' Ghyll.

Now his heads on the crock and the bowl is below,
As we all gather round by the fires warming glow,
Our songs they are merry and our chorus is high,
As we drink to all hunters who join in the cry.

@hunting @english
LH
--------------------

Joe Bowman is also the main character in "The Marndale Hunt" but as that has 11 verses, I'm not going to type it out unless anyone is particularly interested!
JB also gets a mention in "The Six Fell Packs" along with John Peel & numerous other Fell huntsmen.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 11-Jun-02.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 06:19 AM

Thanks Malcolm.

I see the 3rd part of Ty Coch has been shifted a bit in the way I learned it. The difference is slight but in "yours", the 1st beat of the bar falls on the first of the 3 crotchets and in "mine" falls on the quaver, drifiting further away from John Peel I guess.

Jon

Subject: Lyr Add: D'YE KEN SAM HUGHES (Canadian parody, WW2
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 04 Mar 02 - 08:53 PM

Canadian parody, World War I:

D'ye ken Sam Hughes with his buckle overshoes?
He should sell the Ross rifles and buy us all canoes
And if he don't we'll all go on the booze
When we land up in London in the morning.

Do you ken if he don't buy us a boat
We'll feed our Oliver equipment to the Fifth Division goat
And we'll all get out of camp if we have to float
And we'll land up in London in the morning.

When you go to the doctor with sore feet
And he says, "Does your boots fit you nice and neat?"
And you say, "Yes they do, I take a number eight,"
And he gives you Number Nine in the morning.

Collected by Phil Thomas from Russell Miller, 1963. P.J. Thomas Collection #206. Learnt in Whitely Camp. The footnotes as to sam Hughes, Ross rifles, etc. would take a few pages.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 11-Jun-02.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,ray
Date: 15 Sep 02 - 06:39 AM

i would like to let you know when i emigrated from manchester to australia in 1974 i brought with me a john peel door knocker which still hangs on my front door. it depicts john peel astride his horseblowing his horn with is dog at the horses feet. p.s. it is made of brass.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Orac
Date: 16 Sep 02 - 06:46 AM

Robert Peel's home was at Drayton Manor near Tamworth which is now the Funfair "Drayton Manor Park". There is an exhibition there regarding the Peel family and esp. Robert Peel. I don't think there is any family connection to John Peel in the song.

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 02 - 03:19 PM

john peel is from cumbria ,robert was a southner. john never ventured much outside north cumbria and southern scotland try this site for mor info http://www.stevebulman.f9.co.uk/cumbria/john_peel_f.html

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 02 - 03:47 PM

to clear it up once and for all

goto#
http://www.blencathrafoxhounds.com/john_peel.htm

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 08:15 PM

d' ye john ken peel?

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 05:39 AM

Do ye ken John- Pel?

Subject: RE: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,Simon Sweeney
Date: 02 May 03 - 08:15 AM

My farther-in-law has an authentic hip-flask which once belonged to John Peel.

It has an insignia engraved on the base.

He wishes to sell this and is open to offers.

replies to : [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From:
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 07:23 AM

Dear Sir/Madam

I need to know the names of all the hounds of John Peel, especially any whose names are '-e-e'I am stuck trying a crossword, any help please reply asp, my postal dates are very limited

Thank you for any help offered

Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 08:42 AM

Maybe thqat second e is wrong, I'll bet it's True.

Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 11:22 AM

You have several posibilities....from two diffrent songs....however, it will messup some of your other expected words....unless you use "colloquial/dialect spellings"

Do ye ken John Peel
And we'll tell them of Ranter and Royal,
Of Britain and Melody too,
How they rattled a fox round the Carrock
And drove him from scent into view.

Horn of the Hunter
Yes, I ken John Peel and auld Ruby, too
Ranter and Royal and Bellman so true
From the drag to the chase, from the chase to the view
From the view to the death in the morning

HAVE FUN!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 12:17 PM

Gargoyle: I know there's no such thing as a "right" version of a folk song, but the way we sing John Peel in the Lake Disrict is

"Ranter and Ringwood
Bellman and True"

which explains my posting suggesting that "true" might conceivably be the answer if one of the e's is wrong.

Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From:
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 02:08 PM

Well, you got that wrong, 28 across has only four letters, ?r?e, ergo it must be 'True'!!
Perhaps it was a little too early in the morning!!

Cheers JJ

Subject: RE: Origins: Do ye ken John Peel?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 10:48 AM

Queensland folklore...

Do ye ken John Peel?

was taught in Primary schools in the 1950's as part of the "music Education" stuff... only other song I can remember is...

ahh, "hole in head syndrome" again...

the song about the convicts coming to australia in chains...
which apparently was composed for a musical in the 1800's

last verse was
oh had I the wings of a turtledove,
I'd soar on my pinions so high
straight to the arms of my polly love,
and in her sweet arms I would die.

Ch
Singing, Too - ral i oo ral i addity, etc...
...
and we're bound for botany bay.

mustn't have learnt it so well ... :-)

Robin