BS: Let's talk about the US election

Subject: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: Neil D
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 02:40 AM

WHAT. JUST. HAPPENED? How could you America? How could you make this sociopathic megalomaniac the most powerful man on earth? Do you no longer love democracy, fairness, civility, humanity? For the world will barely be recognizable in four years. An independent Ukraine will no longer exist. Europe may try to keep her afloat without us but when Trump and his Republican allies (they will win both houses of the legislative and with a 6-3 Supreme Court, they will have a complete hammerlock on our government) not only abandon Ukraine but betray her to the true ruler of America, Vladimir Putin, there is little hope for Ukrainians. When Xi Jinping sees that he will be salivating over conquest of Taiwan, with the US standing back to watch it happen. If you think Gaza is a disaster now, it will get worse. Trump has already stated that he will give Netanyahu whatever he needs to accomplish his goals in Gaza. Bebe's goal for Gaza is complete de-palestination. When we withdraw from all environmental protocols at the behest of the major corporate polluters the rest of the world will have no choice but to follow suit. We were already at the tipping point on climate change. Iould go on but I'm worn out by what I just witnessed.
I feel like I've been hit by a truck. I am confused. sick to heart and terrified. And I've never been more ashamed to be an American.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 02:56 AM

Much as I find Trump a crass personality, is a mistake to judge or pre judge a governments policies,before they have even taken office
What happens next is speculation.
At the present moment in time, Germany is occupied by USA army, the idea that Russia is going to invade Germany whilst the USA ARMY is in occupation is very unlikely, whoever wins the election.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 03:00 AM

If US has ever been worthy of any respect, as far as the rest of the world is concerned, they have just flushed it into the cesspit. Well, if they want a racist, misogynist, criminal as a leader it proves that Americans have not evolved enough to call themselves part of humanity. Lets hope the rest of the world turns its back upon the cesspit and leaves it to rot over the next four years.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 03:07 AM

US has two months to get trump behind bars for four years before it has a chance to take office.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 03:10 AM

SPB racism etc has occurred before in the USA remember McCarthy

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 03:17 AM

Look at some of Trumps promises - mass deportations, revenge, retribution. I suppose back street abortionists will be rubbing their hands with glee. Netanyahu, Orban and their ilk have already expressed their delight, I wonder why?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 03:21 AM

on the other hand if he puts taxes on British goods, it may put pressure on Starmer to negotiate with th EU or even rejoin eu or negotiate trade deals

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:22 AM

The political and economic shock will make the UK economic and social recovery after 14 years of tory misrule and corruption that much harder, no doubt Badenoch is over the moon as this will be something that the tories will no doubt blame Labour for.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:23 AM

There's this debate recently on Youtube going over the arguments for and against Harris and Trump. Conducted by intelligent articulate and relatively peaceful people. There is a lot there. Too bad the original Pres thread has been shut down. Reminds me of what happened to the Washington Post recently when the powers that be decided that endorsement was going too far. Anyhow, this mini-thread can be appended to the original if desired.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:32 AM

I linked to an article in The Economist on the original thread which endorsed Harris but gave what was, to my mind, a fair synopsis of the good and bad points for both candidates. It was poo-pooed but a reread of it gives me hope that not all is lost. It will be difficult to keep the mad dog on a leash for 4 years but, unlike our own Brexit madness, this will be reversed at the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: skarpi
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:38 AM

America voted an Immigrant family to the White House.
An old man 78 years old who is going end up like Biden unless someone take him out like they did with Presedent Biden.

Looking from oustside well then I
Say this, be careful what you wish for
USA no one is what he seems to be.

This is a sad day for Plannet Earth.

Have good day
All the best.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:53 AM

Well said, Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:56 AM

We can hope that he now loses interest and goes off to play golf, leaving the grown ups to run the country.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 05:11 AM

Project 2025 is the plan written by a group of conservatives including (I read)former advisors of Trump; he has disclaimed it…

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: Neil D
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 05:30 AM

Just because he disavowed Project 2025 while running because of how popular it was doesn't mean he won't embrace it as president. Remember how every single Supreme Court justice stated under oath during the vetting process that they considered Roe vs Wade settled law and had no intention to overturn it. Then the first chance they got they overturned it because they are liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 06:11 AM

Message from Herself:

I write poems which I often recite on the monday mudcat sing around and sometimes I get Martin to post them on the poetry thread. I had an idea for one which I call Riding the Night Mare about the possibility, now reality of a second trump presidency. However I am already starting to self censor and will now only feel safe to share it with trusted friends. This may be an over reaction but I am afraid and I'm not even an American.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 06:11 AM

In my honest opinion....likely to be as successful as he was in building 'The Wall'

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 06:22 AM

> unlike our own Brexit madness, this will be reversed
> at the next election

.... assuming he doesn't follow through on his "one last time" statement and have himself declared emperor for life.

--- *Wailie*: now *I*'m self-censoring.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 06:45 AM

I'm up early, you say? How about I never got to sleep. Every rational person in the United States is horrified.

In the next two months Biden has to pack the Supreme Court with at least two more justices. We know it can be done quickly, look at how Trump added Coney Barrett. And there isn't a rule saying there are only ever nine justices. The House and Senate have been working since Biden got into office to case-harden many aspects of the federal system to avoid the crap that Trump pulled last time.

Trump inherited Obama's robust economy, then trashed it over four years, but I can't believe that as many people as voted for him have no understanding of that - so many mentioned the economy. Gas isn't going to go back down, but inflation isn't a problem right now, and again, they can't tell the difference. And Trump created worse boogeymen with his lying about the conditions of things than Never-Trumpers and Democrats were able to convince people about how scary Trump is with his Project 2025.

Now the place goes to hell in a handbasket. He's going to pardon everyone he can, going to try to take away civil service protection and qualifications for federal employees to turn them into his minions. NATO, Ukraine, it's all a horrible disaster.

No point in reopening the other thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 07:01 AM

And the electoral college has to go. It's a relic of the time when slave states wanted to keep the power to enslave people. That's pretty much what is happening again, the minority rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 07:07 AM

My commiserations, Stilly.

I really, really wish you could have posted 'I told you so' here but, sadly, the fears we have voiced over the last few months have happened :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 07:08 AM

Humor in the face of life's absurdities is more crucial than ever.
A resurgence of newly adapted Stalin jokes may be apropos.

The election confirmed that machismo, misogyny, racism, miscegenation, fear, hate, and the mythical power of the beleaguered hero have won the day in the USA.

The threat to science is also in play at the National Institutes of Health.

It is 1933 in 2024. A normalization of advancing hatred is now without guardrails in the House, Senate, Presidency, and the Supream Court.
A modern fascism will be without some of the key aspects of Hitler's fascism but there is now room for new ones. 1933 was still a time before wholesale murder was the common political practice. 2024 will be transformative but overall a time when freedom is squeezed hard.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 07:13 AM

How many of Trumps 71 million voters believe that they will be the one turkey pardoned the thanksgiving table?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 07:20 AM

According to the BBC News website, Trump has said he plans to put billionaire Elon Musk in charge of an audit of governmental waste. It wouldn't surprise me that if Musk gets a taste of governmental power, he could make a bid for President next time round.

If you are worried about what the next four years might bring, be very afraid of what could happen in 2028.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 07:26 AM

Musk isn't eligible, he was born in South Africa.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 07:26 AM

Dear Filk, hiding in fear helps no one, not even yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 07:32 AM

In European history we had successions of dynasties - can we now look forward to (dread) a dynasty of oligarchs?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 08:14 AM

In 1986 Ronald Reagan issued a sweeping amensty for all illegal immigrants who entered the US before 1982, part of a reform bill. I wonder if Biden could cobble together something like that ahead of Trump's slime trail arriving at the White House. That would certainly burst his bubble and help save the workforce here.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 08:56 AM

Value of Tesla shares have shot up overnight, looks like Musk may be getting a billion or so windfall then.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 09:51 AM

> Dear Filk, hiding in fear helps no one, not even yourself.

Panic is anger which hasn't had time to drop the clutch yet. And bravery *requires* fear, otherwise it's foolhardiness.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 09:51 AM

> looks like Musk may be getting a billion or so windfall

Only if he can cash in quick before the stock market tanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 10:57 AM

MaJoC the Filk - it was a remarkably fast turnaround this morning, from a horrible morass to a crisp bright anger. I've already set up a monthly donation to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU). This in turn has me shopping around to lower my Internet bill - it has bugged me for ages that they keep raising the price and say its faster but it isn't. So that $20 a month will be a wash when I switch to the lower cost plan and give the cash instead to the folks who do try to protect our liberties.

That's 100+ days out of Kamala Harris' life she'll never get back. I was fine with Biden, by the way, but after that debate (and even though he was always better than Trump), the seeds of doubt were there. The Democrats shot themselves in the foot when the moneyed ones started clamoring that Biden was too old. And if we want to trace this back further, it was a nice gesture that Biden made Merrick Garland the Attorney General, but Garland failed to act in a timely manner - if he'd started those trials back when he should have, this would be moot. (They say hindsight is 20/20, but Garland has annoyed a lot of people by being way too cautious.) Now we get to see who Trump can appoint to go after his very long list of enemies. That probably includes jurors, judges, prosecutors, etc. Though Fani Willis is still standing and still has a case she can now run. Somehow. Better do it fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 11:12 AM

Herself's trying to write that poem, but she's too angry at the moment, and that's getting in the way.

.... I would add more, but every time I try to do so I manage to hit *something* on the keyboard and/or mousepad which blanks the entire message. Mebbe it's trying to tell me something.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 11:56 AM

This morning, bureaucratic government is in full goose bonker panic mode. My response was to make peanut butter cookies with pecans.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:39 PM

The stock market in the US isn't tanking; quite the opposite today on the election result.
If I'm not mistaken, the Republican party now has the president, vice-president, Senate, Congress and Supreme Court. Think on that.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:54 PM

Majoc:

"Panic is anger which hasn't had time to drop the clutch yet. And bravery *requires* fear, otherwise it's foolhardiness.

Is that yours? I want to know who I'm stealing from. Esp. the first part.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:56 PM

Thompson, I never fail to appreciate your keen grasp on things.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:58 PM

Biden did not help,by making comments about Trump voters

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:13 PM

With everything lined up as it is, could he change the constitution so he can stay in power?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 01:30 PM

Yes and no.
The Constitution can be changed with a 2/3 majority vote by each State.
But, with unlimited power, Trump can merely ignore the Constitution or change its function by decree, unconstitutionally.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 02:02 PM

Anger leads to panic, panic leads to fear. fear leads to anguish...
or any other combination of words that might fit in the moment.

Trump has many Goebbels wannabes like Tucker Carlson but he already has FOX as a propaganda branch of his government. For immigrant deportation camps, he has Miller and others to do the dirty work. Trump has more support from the Air Force than the other branches so there may be a purge of generals and admirals. RFK will be in charge of health?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 02:37 PM

robomatic: I can't remember where I got the second part from (possibly Sir Pterry --- it sounds like one of his). I admit responsibility for the other bit, with all due credit to Stilly for inspiring it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: meself
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 02:44 PM

So, the wealthiest and most powerful country on earth has elected as president a vicious, senile, old degenerate who just wanted a way to stay out of prison - and found it. It sounds like the basis for a mid-20th century comedy, but the aspiring president would have to be a loveable rogue and the country a banana republic.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:06 PM

I haven't even looked at the other contests and races
in my area, although I already heard it announced
that our US Senator was elected for another term (Democrat).

When I have my wits about me again,
I will look up those other senators, representatives, and ballot questions
to see what results there are.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:22 PM

The journalistic take seems to be that this election was decided by class - the working class having voted for the Republican candidate and the upper middle and upper class for the Democratic candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:47 PM

SRS..
"And the electoral college has to go."
   Of course it does, even though it wouldn't have helped this time. I am totally aghast at the poplar vote.
   Clearly, empty promises, catering to single-issue voters and general ignorance...fed by Fox News...has overwhelmed rationality.
   It will be interesting to see what Biden & Harris manage to salvage in the next few months, but I can only hope (no prayer!)
   Once the first shock was over, I refused to turn to the predictable 'analyses' by the pundits and just retreated into reading an important book about how to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 05:53 PM

It is late but it sounds like no one has been drinking.

Biden has some responsibility in this election result but twice as many Latino men voted for Trump this time around.
I would have sold out and chosen a candidate like Gavin Newsome ugh
At least he would not risk a gender gap bias.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 06:09 PM

BillD, the first Trump administration was a result of the electoral college. That's the problem.

I don't know what kind of a bind Judge Merchan is in, but it would soothe a lot of angry brows if he would sentence Trump to prison time. Even if he never serves it, he sure as hell deserves it.

Subject: RE: BS: US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 06:14 PM

So many people are wishing that M-i-*-t-e-r C-r-o-o-k-* (see Wikipedia) had been a better shot. I never thought I'd be writing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Helen
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 08:23 PM

Look on the bright side. At least Kamala Harris is less likely to be the target now. The shooters can underestimate her while she and Biden work together to make life as difficult as possible for Trump when he slinks into the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 08:36 PM

Their job is to make the transition smooth (unlike what he did for them) but they certainly will want to reinforce the furniture and have washable paint on the walls in rooms where he has been known to throw food. When Joe and Jill walked to the entrance at the White House on Biden's inauguration they had to wait for someone to answer the door; as he departed Trump had insisted to the staff that they all take the day off. Fortunately some of the staff knew what was up and were ready. Trump also didn't attend Biden's inauguration, as most former presidents have when their successor is sworn in. I'm curious to see if Biden attends (or if Trump makes a fuss and excludes him?) Such a cretin.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 02:14 AM

67,927,989 votes (47.6%)HARRIS
72,623,882 votes (50.9% TRUMP
Here is a link from the financial times, jourmalistic speculation on how it affects Europe
https://www.ft.com/content/34dd1f1c-d8a0-4669-b63f-71fe31f3157b

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 02:20 AM

here is a Link from the BBC, how election result could possibly affect the UK
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgk132vymm0o
My opinion is that this might POSSIBLY force the uk government to negotiate trade deals With Europe

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 04:46 AM

here are some things he will not do ,socialise the means of production introduce a national health service, nationalise the railways

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 06:17 AM

SRS: Every rational person in the United States is horrified.

That, of course, implies that over 50% of American people are irrational. Perhaps that is the problem, and Trump is just the person to represent them (the majority).

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 07:31 AM

IF that is the case why have stocks and shares gone soaring up after Trumps victory, are shareholders irrational?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Hrothgar
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 07:55 AM

Will he now burn the Reichstag so he can blame his enemies?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 08:08 AM

The German government is rocking on its foundations.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 09:24 AM

DtG wrote: "We can hope that he now loses interest and goes off to play golf, leaving the grown ups to run the country."

I doubt that this time around the old jackass is going to allow any grownups into the room to say no to him. He's got more than a few criminal types from his previous administration to choose from.
We're not just in for a bumpy ride we're on a rocket sled to hell. Sorry for the negativity but it's all so damn depressing.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 09:25 AM

> IF that is the case why have stocks and shares gone
> soaring up after Trumps victory, are shareholders
> irrational?

In general, it's the margins. From the outside, the effect is that of a bunch of headless chickens; inside, every individual stockbroker (and more to the point, every individual quant's computer program) is attempting to game the system. Playing the stock market is horseracing for posh boys, all with other people's money.

In this particular case, it's party time for the wide boys.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 09:48 AM

The point I was trying to make, gillymor, is that he does not seem too interested in actualy doing the job of running a country. He just wanted to be president to stay out of prison. Now he has achieved that goal I suspect he will let others do the actual management for him.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 10:15 AM

I got that, Dave. I don't mean to rain on your parade but I'm thinking that the "grown ups" he chooses this time around are going to be far worse than the last batch, some of whom did act like responsible adults and tried to curb his meaner instincts. He doesn't care, he doesn't have to run again, he'll be looking for folks with a high sleaze factor who won't get in his way. There are a few felons out there that he pardoned who will probably be filling out job applications and wind up among those running things while he's out cheating on the golf course. Not a rosy picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 10:41 AM

The stock market hit 2 all-time highs before the election and once after. So what.

Rational / irrational are part of the human condition based upon information and choices.



In the simplest possible terms...there are more simple people than complex people, therefore...

Given the choice between electing felon Tony Soprano or a recent woman district attorney, America chose tough guy Tony Soprano for President, which is a tough job.

Kamala did not survive being shot in the ear by an assault rifle.
Trump did.
She did not face 5 indictments.
Trump did.
She did not suffer the trials and tribulations that Trump faced in the minds of the average person.
She did not have a religious wave of Christian nationalism behind her.
Harris was merely a highly educated lawful conscientious servant of the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 11:02 AM

Trump was a lousy candidate and Harris was an excellent one. Biden never should have run for a 2nd term or should have exited much sooner, he hamstrung the process. That said, it looks like the electorate moved hard right and Daffy Duck could have run as the GOP guy and won. Inflation, brought on by Trump's mishandling of COVID, may have been the deciding factor. A trip to grocery store is a pretty dismaying event for most folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 11:15 AM

The electorate thought differently to you,
the grown up are just the same, big corporations, they have just chosen to back a different puppetThe Man in the Mask

Notes: words and music by Malvina Reynolds; copyright 1971 Schroder Music Company, renewed 1999.






















Come sit down beside me before the big T.V.
And watch the funny pictures they have there to look at,
Shampoo for your hair and the last polar bear,
And the man on the moon who was walking around
Then left, leaving junk on the once virgin ground.

There's old timey movies with old fashioned dresses,
The kidnap of babies and other such messes,
There's football and baseball and guys selling cars,
And then there's The Man in the Mask.

Chorus:
They say it's his face, but I just can't believe it.
It looks like a mask that I saw in the store.
It talks with deep feeling about ending some war
And stopping inflation, and it's so fantastic,
You'll cry while you're laughing, and roll on the floor.

Every four years he puts a new mask on.
Each one is worse than the one he had before,
But the words are the same and the same earnest manner,
About ending inflation and stopping the war.

The sponsors paid out a million of millions
To get him up there with his magic routine,
But it's really a bargain, 'cause there's such a margin
In war and inflation and the big T.V. screen
That gives us The Man in the Mask.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: meself
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 11:17 AM

Trump - "tough guy Tony Soprano"?? That's like calling a yappy chihuahua a "tough dog pitbull".

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 11:19 AM

Ditto, meself.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 12:37 PM

That, of course, implies that over 50% of American people are irrational

Not ness. I heard a lot of interviews in which people says "Yes, he says those things but he doesn't mean them."

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 12:43 PM

You guys are not young men or blinded by machismo.
Trump looks far more different to a 20 year old young man who has an affinity for being badass.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 01:30 PM

> I heard a lot of interviews in which people says
> "Yes, he says those things but he doesn't mean them."

They said that last time, and behold, he did. Never underestimate the power of an overcompensated inferiority complex.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 04:50 PM

In the history of US Presidential elections, the incumbent president's approval rating is what the president will win by or lose by.

Harris broke that rule for the first time in history by getting 8% more than the incumbent Biden's approval rating of 42%.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 06:29 PM

For Black Women, 'America Has Revealed to Us Her True Self'
Kamala Harris's resounding defeat affirmed the worst of what many Black women believed about their country, even as some looked to the future with a wary determination.

Gift article, all should be able to read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 07:16 PM

Creating a better society is possible Stilly. It's getting closer.
In the short run a winner has to paint a perception that is both true and will stick in the minds of people who generally can not name their Senator.
Peddling hope is less effective than; agreeing, showing why they are mad, and lastly give a simple clear slogan and lasting solution.

Yeah I call it hypnosis but Republicans are good at it and Democrats aren't. It's time Dems do the best thing for the greater good.

The long run is the stuff of legacy and history. It will write itself if the short run is handled well.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 08 Nov 24 - 03:28 AM

It's time Dems do the best thing for the greater good.
What do you mean by the best thing, Donuel?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Nov 24 - 04:44 AM

Mean while the country occupying Germany with bases is not Russia but America , i think it is unlikely Trump will remove all bases or any. we must wait and see

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 08 Nov 24 - 01:58 PM

Just remember, fewer than 25% of the American eligible voters voted for Trump.

All is not lost.

I fear that some people who voted for Trump will find, to their regret, exactly what they voted for.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 24 - 02:00 PM

The best thing may require mind control techniques similar to the Republicans which I consider to be a sacrifice of certain ethics regarding not getting people's permission. Sometimes to achieve a greater good ya gotta do some semi unsavory things.

It is far less invasive and injureous than project 2025.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Nov 24 - 02:55 PM

So what's your plan, Don, are you gonna make America cluck like a chicken?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 24 - 04:10 PM

MAFA make America free again - the antithesis of MAGA

Most civil servants are Schedule C employees that can only be terminated by cause. Bigger wigs are schedule F employees who are appointed by the President and serve at the pleasure of the President, which means 'fired'. Even before project 2025 Republicans want to make most civil service employees schedule F so they can be fired and replaced by the President. It did not go according to their plan but Project 2025 is bringing this process of mass firing back. My family is better off than many government workers since we are under Maryland law which has more protection than Virginia. Project 2025 hopes to destroy the bureaucrats/agencies in three other ways. There will be ongoing fights without a doubt. Elon Musk will be playing his villainous part. He will claim he is improving efficiency and saving money but he will be destroying function. With all the Trump loyalists replacing people who already have experience the learning curve for the replacements and vacancies could take a lifetime.

The other ways to destroy the government are things like starving it out without appropriations. For government workers who see how the sausage is made they are not the enemy deep state that Trump believes we are. We do make inconvenient witnesses to Trump corruption.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Nov 24 - 04:28 PM

Inconvenient witnesses from the last time may be first on his hit list. I fear for the National Archives.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:10 AM

WAshington Week with The Atlantic explained some of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 02:21 AM

if the turnip pardons itself, the next president needs to revoke the pardon the day after taking office.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 02:48 AM

Can we make judgements on what he actually does in office and his policies when they actually take place

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 06:12 AM

Can we make judgements on what he actually does in office and his policies when they actually take place

We can, Sandman; but we can conjecture based on his first term, and those who surrounded him in that term and those who now will be his team.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 07:30 AM

we can conjecture...
however theres only so many ways you can spell shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 07:33 AM

You can do whatever you like, The Sandman, but I've seen this shit show before and now that he no longer has to answer to voters and will soon own the DoJ (one of the entities that's trying to bring him to justice) and will effectively be above the law, it's a safe bet that things will be far worse this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 07:57 AM

Planning ahead and being prepared does precede acts by a vengeful person. If you have no skin in the game getting ready ahead of time might seem silly.

Mass deportations are expensive. Deporting Jews from Germany would have been cost-prohibitive. Using Jewish slave labor was actually profitable. It was cheaper to kill them all.

Mass deportation will be quite a boondoggle with money for all involved except immigrants. The family separation will be the biggest tragedy in modern US history in my book. What happens to the children born here by immigrants?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 08:45 AM

What has happened to the USA has been brewing for 40 to 50 years
The concept of a public good has been replaced by a greedy selfishness of SELF concern culminating in Trumpism.
Locally an initiative to not allow ambulance service to those who can not pay was a big issue.

The toxic combination of selfishness, greed, and hatred has become the norm. "My own concerns are all that matter" is the credo of America today. Public good is out the door.

What has happened here is about who we are. Trump did not create this philosophy, we did.

Democrats are still playing the game on a Republican field.
We need to be more honest about who we are, who we could be and why.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 09:07 AM

On the lighter side, if you drive a pickup and drink beer, you won the election. If you drive a Prius and drink wine, you lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 09:21 AM

I saw this posted elsewhere

Polybius - The Histories Book VI


"When a state has weathered many great perils and subsequently attains to supremacy and uncontested sovereignty, it is evident that under the influence of long established prosperity, life becomes more extravagant and the citizens more fierce in their rivalry regarding office and other objects than they ought to be. As these defects go on increasing, the beginning of the change for the worse will be due to love of office and the disgrace entailed by obscurity, as well as to extravagance and purse-proud display; and for this change the populace will be responsible when on the one hand they think they have a grievance against certain people who have shown themselves grasping, and when, on the other hand, they are puffed up by the flattery of others who aspire to office. For now, stirred to fury and swayed by passion in all their counsels, they will no longer consent to obey or even to be the equals of the ruling caste, but will demand the lion’s share for themselves. When this happens, the state will change its name to the finest sounding of all, freedom and democracy, but will change its nature to the worst thing of all, mob rule."

Polybius (c. 200 – c. 118 BC) 

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 09:24 AM

I drive a pickup and drink beer and my wife drives a Prius (actually it's a Tesla) and drinks wine and we both lost, big time.
I saw a bumper sticker on a Tesla the other day that read something like "Bought it Before I Knew he was Such a Jackass".

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 10:37 AM

The finger pointing right now is going in all directions. Black women blaming White women, White women blaming minorities and men, college educated versus high school or less education, and many other versions of the blame game.

The places we get our news are so diverse and many of them so free of the truth that until there is a conversation about that, it's a cacophony. As long as it benefits the GOP to let big money into politics Citizens United will never be overturned, and after Twitter being sold to Musk there is a huge toxic platform of invective—The New York Times and every other newspaper in the land are not the main source of information for the voters who didn't understand Trump's lies and self-interest in running - to stay out of prison.

There's a lot of work to do to find ways to educate those Trump voters about how the government really works and hopefully a way to reign in the oligarchs. In turn, the Democrats have to pay more attention to the voters who have less education, to all of the jobs in fields and trades that have been overlooked. And to shine a light on the real reasons groceries are expensive and housing hard to come by - investors and corporations. What a lot of them are doing now used to be illegal. Thank Dubya and the Supreme Court for rolling back a lot of the things that kept corporations honest. The court has to be addressed - a binding code of conduct, an Inspector General. And Biden does need to add another justice, though Trump would probably do the same thing just to get even. Right now everyone is probably holding their breaths and trying not to give Trump any ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 10:54 AM

Trump has revealed America, he didn't change it.

The average age of home buyers for our parents was 34.
Today the average age is 54.
Even bad food is more expensive
The middle class has been devoured.
Bleeding them further is murder.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 11:37 AM

> Trump has revealed America, he didn't change it.

Verily. Until today, I didn't know that ....

.... this group of oppositional humans has always existed. It's election deniers in 2024; in 1865, after losing the Civil War, unrepentant Confederates were sent to Washington as senators and representatives.

Congress refused to seat them and drafted part of the 14th Amendment “to perpetuate, as a constitutional imperative, that any who violate their oath to the Constitution are to be barred from public office.”

       --- Rands In Repose, dated 5th November (emphasis in original)

The problem in applying the 14th Amendment now is: Who's left who can bell the cat?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 11:56 AM

Here’s Jonathan Pie talking about the US election in his own inimitable fashion. It’s comedic, of course, but there’s much more than just a hint of truth in there…

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 12:20 PM

MaJoC the Filk sent me a note about a typo - reign vs rein - but I think I'll leave it because think about it. Who wants to reign - it's unintentional wordplay about part of the problem. (If the squiggly red lines didn't show a spelling error syntax goofs often get through.)

A lot of people are trying to figure out where to go next, based upon what happened. Mistakes were made, and while there are a few folks trying to gin up conspiracy theories about the voting machines, that dog won't hunt (it's part of Trump's pack of mongrels, we know how stupid it is.) We have two years to turn the House and Senate.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Helen
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:22 PM

gillymor, I've been telling my Hubby that I want to make up "FEM" stickers to put on Tesla cars i.e. "f*ck Elon Musk", because that's what I say every time I see a Tesla.

DtG, give it a rest please.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:31 PM

You too Helen.

And 100!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 05:26 AM

As Donald Trump won the election, his far-right supremacist supporters sparked a wave of misogynistic abuse

In a tight US election, a gender split emerges as Donald Trump chases the 'bro vote'

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 07:36 AM

What to do:

Your health care is likely to be lost if it is AHC. Get an appointment and demand as thorough a screening as possible. Prices elsewhere will probably rise so document your plan and its usage well. Pre-existing condition restrictions could return so be informed.

Tariffs will make certain items expensive, so stock up where possible.
Walmart, Target, and Costco may lose some price advantages. Some items like cheap electric cars will be unavailable if they come from China.

I don't know the effect on 90% of the economy, but beware of idle gossip; scams may become rampant and grift normalized without consumer protection.

The more you can document now the better off you may be in 4 years due to unforeseen circumstances.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 07:50 AM

btw, ICE agents are to be assisted by the Army according to Trump which is how the Gestapo operated. Trump's plans will be stymied because there is no detailed plan unless Project 2025 holds the details. Just like only a bit of his Wall got built mass deportation may just be for photo op.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 08:29 AM

A :'( is a crying emoji. ;-) is a wink.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 09:30 AM

It's called putting lipstick on a pig, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 09:35 AM

...and, Helen, Alex says she's gonna drive the thing with a bag on her head.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 09:39 AM

As someone (I can guess who) unilaterally decided to ‘disappear’ my post from this morning, I will repeat it, and I’ll keep repeating it until the offender gets the message and bloody well leaves it alone…

Seen this morning on Farcebook, a post along the lines of… ”Maybe Canada should begin absorbing the US’s Blue states, then they will have health-care. The Red states obviously don’t want it.” ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 10:13 AM

Heed the warning of The Handmaid's Tale: Pay by cash whenever possible, and complain loudly if you can't. Once all money is in bank accounts, cash can be eliminated as a legal medium of exchange, and you're then only one stroke of the legislative pen away from becoming at best a second-class citizen.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 10:59 AM

I bet he does sod all - like last time. He'll be too busy filling his pockets with goodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:06 AM

I bet he's nicking the lead off the White House roof if you look outside.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:12 AM

Go Americans!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:14 AM

That's my feeling to, Al. Trouble is all the Trump toadies, like Musk, have wormed their way into his good books for their own agenda. We don't know what that aganda is but you can be sure it will not be philanthropic! At least it will, hopefully, be their last chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:58 AM

It's not Trump that concerns me, he'll be too busy monitoring cable news to see what they're saying about him and playing golf, it's the neo-facists, White Nationalists and uber capitalist s who are going to be running wild in the West Wing and the new AG who will be dismantling our justice system along with various other extremists. Competency is not required, all he looks for is loyalty and deep pockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 05:07 PM

> loyalty and deep pockets

There's a long diatribe there, basically lifted straight from Plato's Republic, starting with democracy being the second-worst method of governing a country, and the search for a Strong Man. Sadly, mankind seems to need to relearn this lesson, the hard way, twice a century or so.

To a lesser extent, the same is true for companies. Boeing is being driven to breaking point by the bean counters in the board room who value share price maintenance over engineering excellence, and indulge in empty-calorie tactics like share buy-back; Intel is discovering that "lobbying dollars offer a better return than engineering dollars" (to quote RISKS-34.48) only gets you so far before you start having to lay off workers. And once the talent's gone, it's *gone*; witness the state of Twitter after Agent X sacked it.*

Spread this across the entire country; add in trade tariffs being passed on to the consumer (Brexit is costing the UK 4--5% a year in GDP), the enormous cost of deporting anybody considered "foreign", and the flight of talent to less extreme countries (which has already started). The 2008 crash will seem like a picnic.

* For some months after the sack, all The Register could get out of Twitter's press e-mail address was a poop-emoji autoreply. I've no idea whether setting that up was the last press officer's last act before turning out the lights, but it was karmically correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 05:50 PM

It used to be illegal to do those stock buy-backs and then money went back into the company. Now it goes to stockholders. That's a huge part of the problem (along with CEO compensation.)

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:49 AM

2024 HOTTEST YEAR EVER

I am surprised no one has whispered what this means for global WARMING


Imagine if Al Gore was allowed to have all the votes counted and became President.

We have lost over 20 years of climate reconciliation.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 07:38 AM

How could a convicted felon with the speaking skills of a drunk uncle beat a highly educated prosecutor?

The Price of Eggs party beat the woke celebrity party in the game of labels. I don't blame women, Latinos, or others for voting for Trump.

The Democrats could have claimed the high ground of morality, ethics, fairness, and patriotism but they ignored the memory of the high cost of eggs and the shrunken sizes of everything in the grocery store. Taylor Swift, Beyonce, and Oprah didn't outweigh Joe Rogan and the historic price of eggs.

Of course, there are many other reasons, like having no primary and an indignant, recalcitrant elderly Biden unable to see the writing on the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 08:23 AM

Nice synopsis at 07:38 AM, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 09:16 AM

Donuel, by using ones privilege to place oneself above the law?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 09:30 AM

I never heard the Democrats drive home the fact that THEY didn't cause inflation and that the lower price of bread under T**** was due to a better economy under Obama.
Prices rose during COVID and guess who was minding the store then!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 10:09 AM

Privilege (n): private law.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 10:16 AM

Alexander Hamilton was the first to advocate for a central bank in the United States, and his ideas laid the foundation for the Federal Reserve.      
Guess who wants to put the independent Federal Reserve under Trump's control?
Elon Musk ! He says an independent Fed Reserve is unconstitutional.

I'm sure Trump wouldn't mind being able to rob the bank blind.
He could increase the deficit by 9 trillion dollars with tax cuts and his wish list. The Fed couldn't say boo. That's not to say that Trump will. Owning the central bank is still a delicious cherry on top of extreme power. I'm afraid Trump wants to assassinate Hamilton all over again.


PS Have you seen the friendly face of the deportation Czar Tom Homan?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 10:53 AM

For all the reasons people have mentioned here it should be easy to see that once a strongman or King takes control...
getting rid of that system is like trying to put out a blow torch with a squirt gun. Usually the blowtorch has to run out of fuel.

It will take heros of conscience.
be they red or blue.
to apply the brakes
to this ship of State.

It reminds me that if it took a hundred years of climate destruction then it can take thousands of years if not more to recover. Of course a runaway event can turn into millions of years.
Likewise just a few years of a dictator's control can take a nation 40 years to recover. If ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 04:52 PM

Trump has already asked the Senate to give up their advise and consent powers for new appointments. Trump wants recess appointments to be the rule that bypasses Senate permission so he can appoint anyone without any possible hearings or criticism.

The Donald also wants new rules to ensure there will be NO MORE FILIBUSTER.

Does anyone else think that deporting 10 million workers will make America go hungry without people to pick the crops? Supply and demand would make a more expensive vegetable. Oh well, Americans could stand a little weight loss.

There is nothing free market about tariffs, but it is too complicated for me to see any advantage for citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:05 PM

My only hope now is that he'll fuck things up so badly that it will do in the GOP for a generation or so. It will cause a lot of suffering but may be the only way we reclaim what's left of our democracy. Pretty grim.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Helen
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:30 PM

I've been wondering whether the power-behind-the-throne people, e.g. Project 2025 people, hardline [so-called] Christians, billionaire old white men, etc are very happy that Trump has all of the legal woes because they can hold him to ransom to get what they want. It might explain why he was behaving during the campaign in a relatively civilised manner, compared to his previous behaviour. Susan Wiles could be re-named as the Chief Wrangler.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:46 PM

Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.) offered his thoughts on Democrats’ losses in this year’s elections in a Sunday thread on the social platform X.

“We are out of touch with the crisis of meaning/purpose fueling MAGA,” Murphy said in the thread. “We refuse to pick big fights. Our tent is too small.”


The Connecticut Senator noted multiple issues he thinks the American left is struggling with when it comes to reaching voters, including having “never fully grappled with the wreckage of fifty years of neoliberalism” and moving “past the way people are feeling (ALONE, impotent, overwhelmed) and straight to uninspiring solutions.”

“We don’t listen enough; we tell people what’s good for them,” Murphy said.

“And when progressives like [Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.)] aggressively go after the elites that hold people down, they are shunned as dangerous populists. Why? Maybe because true economic populism is bad for our high-income base,” he added.

In the wake of the 2024 elections, Democrats from different parts of the party have gone after each other for what they think sunk their chances at the polls, as they lost the Senate, the presidency and possibly the House. Those further to the left have said Democrats didn’t go far enough in their direction to excite the party’s base, while centrists have said the party went too far left and frightened moderate voters.

“Real economic populism should be our tentpole,” Murphy said on X. “But here’s the thing – then you need to let people into the tent who aren’t 100% on board with us on every social and cultural issue, or issues like guns or climate.”

But...
WHEN RUNNING FOR A SEAT IN CONGRESS COSTS MILLIONS OF DOLLARS...
you have to cater to the million or billionaires. Sorry workers.

PS Trump wants Kash Patel as the new director of the CIA.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 05:59 PM

Everything is in motion right now, speculating, suggestions to Trump, the awful people he will put in his cabinet.

Meanwhile some of the pundits have pointed out that there are many people who are somewhat case-hardened to his crap because they live in states with all of the nonsense is already going on, like Texas. Hmmm.

I think trying to read anything into what is going on right now is worse than tea leaves. We're going to have to see what happens.

There was a suggestion this morning that Biden can do one thing to mess up Trump's desire to see the federal death penalty put to use - Trump went on a binge of executions in the last six months of his first term. Biden can commute 44 sentences and put them on life sentences and can tell the Terre Haute folks to dismantle the execution chamber now. That would be a good thing. He has already moved most federal cases to non-death-penalty tracks.

Never mind the million people who died during COVID in the US; many of them would have been spared if he'd had half a brain and let the CDC do their job.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 06:45 PM

What is not tea leaves is that the ACLU stands between the worst promises of Donald Trump, and our basic human freedoms and pursuit of happiness. The ACLU needs our monetary support more than billionaires need a tax cut.

Yes, many of the crazy appointees are known to not last long in Trump's employ. Yes, the devil is in the details of the worst plans and those details are not known to many people. Will summary execution of deported immigrants who sneak back in really be carried out as promised? If it happens who will report it?
It's imprudent to not ask questions.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 24 - 07:38 PM

You're right about the ACLU. I've supported them for years with yearly donations, and last week I changed over to monthly donations.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Nov 24 - 07:14 AM

Biden can commute 44 sentences and put them on life sentences and can tell the Terre Haute folks to dismantle the execution chamber now. That would be a good thing. He has already moved most federal cases to non-death-penalty tracks.

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Nov 24 - 10:30 AM

If you have learned much about narcissists you probably know they have overwhelming urges to 'get even' by ongoing retribution. Sometimes they go overboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Nov 24 - 01:26 PM

Another congressional race has been decided, in Arizona.
In a tight race, Democrat Ruben Gallego defeated
the notorious Kari Lake (Republican).

It will take a while to sort out Maine, though.
Today Maine starts to look at second-ranked candidate choices on the ballots.
The race between the Democrat and Republican candidates is so tight
that neither one had a 50% majority after counting
the first-choice voting.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Nov 24 - 06:43 PM

There is a second reason why Democrats lost. It is because the left campus fringe became Anti-free speech with their cancel disinvitation culture, safe space, trigger warning, microaggression, and Antifa riots by fascist means.
Yep the right might ban books and history but their cult leader can say anything he wants. The right became the free speech party. The Dems sounded like snowflakes.
The right might not like totalitarianism as much as they thought but remember they like their own speech, they just don't like your speech.

I had a constant critic that sometimes had a well reasoned argument but often devolved to simple name calling. On numerous occasions, I notified moderators to NOT BAN HIS FREE SPEECH. Alas it did not come to pass.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 01:06 AM

Interesting view of the US election by the Guardian's chief leader writer, Randeep Ramesh. Quotes:

While the methods are shared, the goals diverge. The US became the world’s top oil and gas producer in the last decade. Biden sought to cultivate a green economy, while Trump promoted fossil fuels so aggressively that it bordered on self-parody.

**

In 2022, the poorest 20% of Americans spent nearly a third of their income on food, while the wealthiest fifth spent just 8%. Biden avoided emergency price controls, unlike Richard Nixon who implemented them in 1971 – and won a landslide reelection the following year.

**

Whether Trump can mobilise popular discontent over social and economic inequalities without alienating the oligarchs who support him remains an open question… Trump’s aim isn’t to lift all boats, but rather to lift enough to convince voters to tolerate the corruption, consumer scams and environmental degradation that enrich a plutocratic class. This strategy, boosted by a pliant mediasphere, enables him to present a party of private power as the voice of the ordinary voter.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 02:24 AM

The paragraph in that article prior to your last quote is worth repeating…

”The president-elect has abandoned the neoliberal tradition of keeping markets shielded from direct political influence, openly using his power to favour allies and enrich elites. While centrist Democrats support corporate interests by blocking progressive reforms, Trump aligns directly with billionaires, promoting a culture where justice serves the wealthy, prejudice is trivialised and power diminishes equality. This trickle-down bigotry will ultimately create a system where servility to power and social division become normalised, eroding fairness for everyone.”

How ordinary Americans could be so deluded by The Trump Gang into voting directly against their own best interests is totally beyond my comprehension.

It’s 1930s Germany, all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 06:16 AM

all of which is true BWM. However our own record in voting for loonies is not exactly blameless. There was Thatcher who finished off 28% of manufacturing in one year. Then there was Cameron who walked out because the Brexit vote upset him. And I'm not over the moon with Keir Starmer.
I think the trouble resides in the fact that we have a media who misinform us. Trump's victory and Starmers have in common the fact that the overwhelming nature of thevictories seemed to creep up on them by surprise.
This to me, argues that they don't really know whats going at ground level.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 08:06 AM

Al, this thread is about the US Election. If you want to discuss UK political issues, I think it would probably be better from the Mods’ POV to do it on the ‘Brexit and UK Politics’ thread.’

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 10:48 AM

Stay that hand, BWM: the UK's woes (eg the self-harm of Brexit causing a provable 4% hit to the economy) ahould be an Awful Warning for the US. Whether they'll learn the lesson in time is another matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 11:20 AM

Good point, MaJoC, but I’ve given my answer to Big Al’s above post in the ‘Brexit & UK Politics’ thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 12:57 PM

We understand there has been lunacy on both sides of the pond, but we don't need to go into depth here. It also isn't a thread for philosophy.

Appointments are landing like pasta on the wall, Trump seems to be putting every stupid idea out there to see what sticks. Meanwhile the GOP senators seem to have totally ignored Trump's wishes and have elected John Thune as their majority leader, someone who didn't endorse Trump in this election. Interesting. (It was a secret vote.) The talking head on MSNBC right now is talking about him - said "he's always been a decent guy." That's more than was ever said about McConnell.

Biden hosted Trump at the White House - I saw photos and a brief glimpse of them seated to talk - keeping Trump in line is going to be difficult (he has already been giving directives to the parties - he didn't get what he wanted on Majority Leader.) The thing about his wanting to do everything his way, he told the senate he wants them to recess so he can make recess appointments for all of his cabinet folks - Thune won't do it. His various demands are intended to reduce the power of the House and Senate - so they probably won't go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Nov 24 - 07:08 PM

Trump wants the DOJ to be his personal KGB police to round up his critics, but Matt Gaetz does not have that kind of discipline, and he is unlikely to be ratified.

How is a Fox News host able to run the entire DOD?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 11:01 AM

My thought. Tiny protest. Only going to restaurants run by and/or owned by immigrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Neil D
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 11:47 AM

Deporting undocumented workers (by the way, anyone who turns the word illegal into a proper noun is inherently racist) in the numbers Trump claims would cost us billions and tank the economy. Most Americans have no idea how much our economy relies on these workers. Anthony Bordain said they were the best kept secret of high cuisine and agriculture and manufacturing are also reliant. I wrote something during the first Trump administration and with the spectre of an even more draconian border policy looming in our near future, I'd like to repeat it.
A Christian monk named Thomas Merton said " Into this world, this demented inn
in which there is absolutely no room for him at all,
Christ comes uninvited.

But because he cannot be at home in it,
because he is out of place in it,
and yet he must be in it,
His place is with the others for whom
there is no room.

His place is with those who do not belong,
who are rejected by power, because
they are regarded as weak,
those who are discredited,
who are denied status of persons,
who are tortured, bombed and exterminated.

With those for whom there is no room,
Christ is present in this world.

Even though he wrote this 60 years ago he must have been prescient for I feel like he was describing the situation today at our southern border, where desparate people have fled a dystopia mostly of our making (if you would like a list of US military interventions in Central America going all the way back to the Monroe Doctrine it would require another thread. Interventions that had nothing to do with exporting democracy, as if we had any to spare). People who against all odds have made it hundreds of miles to that Golden door, only to have it slammed in their face by an orange -tinted imbecile who whines "There's no more room. We're all filled up." And I would pray that Brother Melton was right, that Christ is indeed present with those people for whom there is no room. I hope he can prepare them a better place in the next world for I fear they will have no compassion, no comfort, no justice in this one. Most Americans claim to be good Christians, including the ones who cheer on the government forces that tear children from their mothers' arms and throw them in cages to sleep on cold stone floors with very little hygene and medical treatment as they sicken and even die in custody. When the Bible says suffer the little children, that does not mean to make the children suffer.
Have these so-called Christians even read their Bibles. How did they miss this passage in Matthew 25: For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

“Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

“And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”
Did they not read that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven.
So when you pass tax cuts for the wealthy at the expense of the poor, the sick, the elderly, children, then you have not only forsaken those people, you have also betrayed your God. Would you truly be Christlike? Then drive the moneylenders from the temples of our democracy.
For there have always been two kinds of Christians. In the third century a churchman named Pelegias taught that the church was obligated to care for those downtrodden in our society. He was excommunicated by the Pope. In the 15th century a teenage girl was inspired by God to lead her nations army against a foreign invader. Christian priests burned her alive. In the 16th century Protestants were invited to Paris for a council that would enumerate their rights in a Catholic State. Instead they were attacked in the night by Catholic knights and slaughtered in the tens of thousands, all on St Bartholomew's Day. In my own time an ordained clergyman chose as his ministry nurturing children to cherish themselves and each other. Many of you spent hours of childhood in his neighborhood. At his funeral Christian people showed up with signs saying Queers Will Burn and God Hates Faggots. When Fred Rogers' son went out to them and asked why they were protesting at his father's funeral he was told that since his father did not teach the children to despise homosexuals he was as bad as one himself. Imagine that. Christians condemning a man for not teaching kids to hate.
So if you're a Christian are you like Pelegias or the Pope. Like Jeanne d'Arc or the priests who burned her. Like the French Huguenots or the murderous Catholic knights. Like Mr. Rogers or the Westboro Baptists.
So when You tell me you are a Christian my question to you, the question you must ask yourself is what kind of Christian are you? The kind that loves or the kind that hates.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Helen
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 12:25 PM

Well said, Neil D!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 04:18 PM

Christian Nationalism inserts its values into the scripture,
PASTORS ARE ADVISED TO CONSULT German theologian Kitell who justified the holocaust genocide with scripture. About half the Christians in America are Nationalists who believe Christ is a tough guy who wants his followers to take over by force and that Trump is the chosen one protected by the lion of God, Jesus CHRIST.

Patriotism is gratitude to the nation but nationalism sees pluralism as a weakness and multiculturalism as evil.

Republicans know donations are dependent on keeping fear and hate foremost in the minds of voters. Christians are educated that their Saints faced great persecution in order to be Christians so they are inclined to believe fear, hate, and persecution. Now that the entire government is white nationalism, who and what is left to hate and fear?
Of course it is the remaining demon Democrats, intellectuals, and leftists.

Of course Neil is correct but the destiny of American white Nationalism is far more dangerous than mere deportations.
It is a war between good and evil, as perceived by each side.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 05:12 PM

So the turnip has appointed an anti-vaxer as health supremo. Roll on the next pandemic, then we will see the folly of this.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 07:27 PM

Every flake he can think of is going into that rickety cabinet of his.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 07:47 PM

We don't need no education DEPARTMENT
We don't need no DAMN EXPERTS
No more dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teacher, leave them kids alone
Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!
All in all, they're just more sick that's been mauled
All in all, they're just more sick that's been mauled

We don't need no CRT
W? don't need no LEFT AGENDA
No more dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers, l?ave them kids alone
Professor! Leave those kids alone
All in all, Trump's will is all you need at all
All in all, you're just another brick in the wall

You don't need no damn vaccines
You don't need the CDC
You don't need no arms around you
And you don't need medicine at all
I have seen the writing on the wall
Don't think you need any government
No, don't think you'll need anything but Trump

[Chorus]
All in all, you're just another brick in the wall
All in all, you were all just bricks in the wall

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 01:14 AM

…and the US is slowly transformed into Gilead.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 04:06 AM

Will this mean mass unemployment for doctors?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 04:46 AM

I've been wondering, there appear to be so many thing the orange man didn't think of -

adding taxes to imports = his supporters paying more for the goods they want/need! (oops)

kicking out 'illegals' = no one to do all that low paid work (another ooops)

how does he force countries to take 'them' back & who gathers 'them' up, confines 'them' & takes 'them' back to their home country - KKK? Proud Boys?

does the 60% get added to stuff US companies order from Chinese companies? Lots of things here are Made in China, I assume it might be the same in other countries

enquiring minds want to know

sandra

sometime back when trump was talking about someone else changing their race, a letter to the editor said he was once white & now is orange!

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 06:07 AM

I am sure that the turnip is misogynistic enough to believe that American Men will just send 'their' women out to do the low paid work that they do not want to do themselves - of course making time to keep the houses clean and put dinners on their tables and other acts of servitude the see fit; all of which seems to be normalised in the turnips narrative and rhetoric. Enjoy your misogynistic patriarchy.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 06:29 AM

I get a distinct impression that the Orange Turnip thinks that, if he imposes a 60% tariff on imports from China, the Chinese will be the ones who have to pay.

I’d say he’s a half-wit, but I don’t think he’s that smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 06:51 AM

I bought eggs last week for under $2.50 a dozen.

Benjamin Franklin said we have a Republic if we can keep it.
We had a pretty good run with some close calls but now it's done.
With a moratorium on all infectious disease research.
The four horsemen are running hard and will be put away wet.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 07:10 AM

So how much will domestic goods go up by if their is going to be a 60% surcharge on the cost of supply chain components?

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 07:51 AM

I'm somehow envisaging an Underground Railway of secret vaccinators, and investigations run by a vastly expanded FBI (apply for a transfer quick if you're a civil servant) hunting them and tracking them by the areas where children aren't dying of tubercular meningitis, polio and measles-pneumonia.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Helen
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 10:03 PM

I just heard this song playing in my Hubby's car and the timing seemed appropriate. (True confession: I'm not a fan of Leonard Cohen and I find it difficult deciphering song lyrics when I hear them. I have to read them rather than listen to them.)

Democracy - a song by Leonard Cohen

When I heard him sing the line "Democracy is coming to the U.S.A" I said, "no it isn't".

But reading the lyrics I can see how relevant the song is at present, even though it was written 30 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Nov 24 - 12:53 AM

We began as a racist sexist democracy and are currently a kakistocracy
which is government by the worst.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Nov 24 - 03:50 AM

”We began as a racist sexist democracy and are currently a kakistocracy
which is government by the worst.”

Not until 1/20/25.

Subject: RE: BS: Let's talk about the US election
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Nov 24 - 04:17 AM

The Coming Era of the Kakistokrats.

One thing is good news, though; among RFK's daffy ideas is one sensible thought - the fact that Americans have learned to eat terribly badly, and Big Food is doing nothing good but only producing Big People.

If he can develop this into cooking-from-scratch nutritious meals produced by students in every school - and every school to have a good canteen and kitchen, of course, this would be good.

If he can develop his thoughts on this further to get all students riding bicycles or walking to schools, and to reduce the use of cars (with its accompanying indebtedness) in towns and cities, America would become a hell of a lot healthier.

If he can also influence whoever is in charge of transport to change American trains so that there are affordable, efficient train services from city to city across the country, there could be the start of real hope.