Is this a folk song?

Subject: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Mikefule
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:28 PM

So of this song was written and performed by someone from a social background where the issues discussed in the song are directly relevant day to day, and who is still performing similar songs to mainly working class audiences in pubs and small clubs 30 years into a musical career, are these the lyrics of a folk song? If not, why not? Discuss. (I said "folk", not "traditional".



I get up at 8, I'm feeling so mechanical
I'm in a trance, I'm watching the time
There's no need to think what kind of a day it it
They're all the same, come rain or shine

Chorus
We're all here and we're working for the company
We have no minds as the day goes by
We're all here and we're working for the company
We have no minds till the day that we die

I go down to the gates, and into the factory
I take my card, number 49
I make my way through the jungles of machinery
I take my place on the production line

The same old job, the same old monotony
The same old faces, day after day
Is this career, is this insanity?
I have to work, and it's insane

"We just want to see you on the factory floor
We don't want to hear what you say
So shut your mouth, get on with your work
Or you will be leaving today"

I think that I should, I know when I'm happy
My mind is a dustbin, so full of insanity
I tried to believe in the fact that I'm leaving
I fight for my rights but I just can't be leaving today

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:42 PM

Nope,
Folk is traditional - otherwise, difine folk
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:50 PM

You can't write folk songs with a name like the Anti Nowhere League
imo

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:53 PM

No. Read the definition.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 04:59 PM

Mikefule, what you fail do understand is that folk songs were never composed by anybody.

They just came into existence mysteriously, ethereally, one day they didn't exist and the next day everybody was singing them.

It's a bit like the opening scene in "2001" when the apes wake up one morning and find this big black obelisk standing in front of them.

That's the same as folk songs, they didn't get composed, they just appeared out of nowhere.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Scoville
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 05:03 PM

I say "not yet; wait and see". The song itself is not traditional but could be part of a tradition of songs that complain about life in crappy jobs ("Diamond Joe" the cowboy version, "the Jute Mill Song" if you will accept it, Hedy West's "Cotton-Mill Girls", etc.).

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:06 PM

I didn't ask, is it traditional - obviously it isn't - but is it folk.

As the consensus is that it isn't, can someone explain to me why a working class person writing a sincere and meaningful song about the working conditions in the industry in their own working class community, and performing it to a mainly working class audience isn't "folk"?

And mentioning the name of the band spoiled the point I was making.

I write as the son of a time-served joiner, and grandson of a factory worker; and on the other side, the son of a farmer's daughter, and whose grandmother was one of 13 children who all worked on the farm before they reached their teens. I am horrified to think that I may be the first person in several generations of my family not to be "authentic".

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:15 PM

No it isn't. But it might become so.(my definition). Of course, it may well be already,according to someone else's definition.It's not classical either, according to my definition.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: skipy
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:15 PM

I,ve never heard a song written by a horse!
(quoted)
Skipy

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

One thing is for sure! Those lyrics are far too obvious. Of course, a great tune could add to their impact.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 06:30 PM

Listen to Guest Mikefule's band Here and then say if this is folk music

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:02 PM

'Mikefule' has obviously decided that the song he refers to IS folk - now he wants someone else (preferably an 'expert' or 'authority') to agree with him and to take responsibility for his decision.

Please have the courage of your convictions, Mr 'Mikefule', if you think it's folk, you call it folk - but don't automatically expect that everyone else is going to fall into line and equally automatically agree with your decision.

Alternatively, if you're disatisfied with that outcome, why don't you do the research and read the books (you'll find them listed on this site as well as others)? It's ultimately down to you to decide.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:07 PM

It's a good start of a song that has meaning and a good subject matter. It won't be a folk song until the "folk" start singing it for a number of years.

I'd like to see the song developed by going somewhere as in a story line rather than a complaint repeated. It could be that the character singing the song has a history that could be shown. Also, you switch from "I" to "we" which is confusing. You might stick to an "I".

No, writing a contemporary song about working conditions doesn't yet qualify it even though the subject matter can be found in labor songs. It needs to be set in motion and people need to pick it up and want to sing it and perhaps tinker with it so that it has variants. Then it becomes a folk song.

I think that if you just write a song, it may or may not catch on. But until it does, it's not really a folk song. It doesn't need to hit the charts as a pop song but there has to be a sub-culture to keep it going such as a work crew that passes it on down to the next generation.

I'm in favor of writing these kinds of songs however because as is said in one of the famous folk songs about man vrs. the machine, "A man ain't nothin' but a man and before I let that steam drill beat me down, I'll die with a hammer in my hand."

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: stallion
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:08 PM

mmmmmmmmmmm I have issues labelling any music, anyway, sometimes music is of it's time and doesn't last, some does, so then we have the delivery (of the message)and I suppose the Genre of folk was set by Carthy et al and contemporary folk by Dylan et al. my view, for what it is worth, is that if people sing it in the pub or around the kitchen table it's what folk are singing, folk music.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:08 PM

<>

Ah, so "It was pleasant and delightful on a midsummer's morn
When the fields and the meadows were all covered in corn" isn't "obvious"?

After 25 years in and around folk music I thought one of the endearing characteristics was that the words are often nonsense.

Must be the "great tune" bit I missed. I could listen to "Shepherd's Hey" all day, myself. I'm sure you're the same.

It is no wonder that folk music is so marginalised when many of those people who claim to care most about it so often make it as exclusive, elitist and as closely-defined as they possibly can.

Billy Bragg: accepted as folk (be it ever so grudgingly). Working class hero, sings some political stuff. Amplify the instruments and make it a bit louder: oh, it's dismissed as thump thump thump, no tune you can whistle and you can't hear the words.

Meanwhile, millions of ordinary people get on with their ordinary customs, music, and day to day life, failing to realise that they no longer qualify as "folk".

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:09 PM

In the 60's and 70's it would have been, but as you can see from the above posts the Puritan fundamentalists have taken over and will not allow it.
Of course it's folk music. It's a song about the folks that isn't aimed at the charts, isn't about "lurve" and can't be sung by Rappers, Divas, Pretty Boys etc because the media wouldn't allow it.
That's where these songs are stuck,, between the hard place of the folk fundamentalists and the rock of the controlled media.
We aren't supposed to carry on the tradition of singing about our lives by either of them. Both would deny us a platform.
Maybe it's best to not bother and sell-out to a vested interest.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Bee
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:14 PM

It would be more likely to become a folk song if, indeed, there was a story line. It seems to be just a complaint about being bored with a factory job. There are hints that the company treats the workers as robots, but no description of how. Up against many labour protest songs, it comes off as a bit of a whiner, really (What? No Black Lung, Shattered Legs, Trapped Miners, Dead-in-a-fire Factory Girls?).

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:15 PM

What I can't figure out is why so many singer-songwriters insist that they are writing folk songs. I suppose they figure that this gives the song some sort if instant "holy status" of some kind.

When someone at an open mike says, "This is a folk song I wrote on the bus yesterday on my way to work," then, no, they're wrong. It's not a folk song. It may be in a "folk style," but it's not a folk song.

If, over a period of time, a number of people hear it, like it, learn it themselves, and sing it a lot, then yes, it may very well be on its way to becoming a folk song.

But what's the bloody rush!?? And why does it matter so much whether it's a folk song or not?

Please tell me. Inquiring minds would like to know.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:17 PM

I was thinking maybe some slide guitar, harmonica .... add a little Dolly Parton.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:20 PM

Mikefule, why are you getting so worked up about whether your song is "folk " or not ?

I will tell you the best way to ascertain whether or not your song is "folk" (this only applies to the UK of course, but Mikeyfule is a UK resident)

Send a tape of your song to , say, twenty Folk Club secretaries and ask them if there is a chance of them booking your band for a performance.

If all twenty say "no" then you can rest assured that your song is not in fact "folk".

Doesn't mean it's a bad song, it just means it isn't "folk".

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 23 Mar 07 - 07:34 PM

incidentally, I would take Mikefule to task on the snippet he mentions in his post above.


the line he quotes is from the (notoriously unreliable) Digitrad

the preferred version is

"Twas pleasant and delightful one midsummer's morn
To view the fine meadows all covered with corn"

and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that imo.

plus, when it comes to the "Larks they sung melodious" bit, there are few moments in folk music to compare with the massed voices of everybody in the audience/singaround.

THAT my friend, is folk music.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,BruceMichael Baillie
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 03:48 AM

Having read this thread I've seen some very good points put forward on both sides of the argument but really kiddies, DOES IT BLOODY MATTER! You do love to have your little arguments don't you!

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:18 AM

I never said it was my song. It isn't. Someone earlier in the thread pointed out the identity of the band that released it.

I never said it was a particularly good song, or indeed a bad one. It chorus, and on the live version I have on CD, the audience joins in with some gusto.

I never said it was a folk song. I just wondered how the fundamentalists would justify it not being one.

I don't think it's a folk song - but it is something with some similarities to a folk song, at least lyrically, if not stylistically.

I do think it has more authenticity or relevance (whatever that is) than an East Midlands office worker singing about sailing round Cape Horn. (Speaking as an East Midlands office worker.) I have met and socialised with many bored factory workers; I have only ever met one person who has sailed around Cape Horn, and he was a "folkie".

It is interesting that the reasons given for it not being a folk song include:

"It's too obvious". There are some very "obvious" folk lyrics; some are dreadful. "She wore a bonnet, with ribbons on it."

It is fascinating that someone should "correct" the lyrics of the folk song I quoted - I learned it by ear from hearing it performed over many years, but it appears I should have checked the correct words in a book. How traditional an approach is that?

It doesn't tell a story. That excludes a hell of a lot of songs I thought were folk: most shanties, for a start.

The truth is, "folk" as we know it is of little direct relevance to most of the "folk" who make up mainstream society, and I find it amusing that so many people who claim some allegiance to "folk" like to distance themselves from the sort of music that is generated by modern society.

The song is by Anti Nowhere League, a punk band that has been touring for 30 odd years now. One of their distinctive attributes is that you can hear the words (fairly) clearly on (nearly) all of their tracks.   The words matter to them and they sell mainly to people who feel that they can relate to the subject material of the lyrics.

Anyway, I'm sorry that an attempt to stimulate an interesting conversation by approaching an old chestnut from a different angle did little but provoke irritation and reinforce some existing prejudices.

I'll get back to dancing, playing, writing the odd tune and the occasional song, enjoying the music on its merits, and leave you to it.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,teachers pest
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:23 AM

It reads like a blues song to me.Don't know what it means to be folk coz if it reads like folk or sounds like folk,then to me it is folk.A song does'nt take 200 years to become a folk song,either it is or it ain't.Then again,like you,i am just in the hands of the know alls.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 04:34 AM

You obviously differentiate between 'folk' and 'tradition' - please explain your definitions.
As far as I'm concerned we came into 'folk music', then retreated from the term when people began to use it as a dustbin to dump anything they couldn't be bothered to categorise. To me, the music I started to listen to is, was and always will be 'folk' until somebody gets up off their backside and produce a satisfactory new definition (rather than wandering round with a blank expression claiming they don't understand!). We even had some clown (apparently for commercial reasons) suggessting that we now abandon the term 'traditition' - sheeeeesh.....
I have never heard a horse sing either; nor have I come across one who has produced a half-decent alternative to the term 'folk'.
If we rely on dumb animals for our information we really must be in a bad way.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:16 AM

"We aren't supposed to carry on the tradition of singing about our lives by either of them. Both would deny us a platform."

No-one is denying you anything (expect, possibly commercial interests)! Just don't expect everyone to fall into line on your say so!

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: stallion
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:06 AM

all the bickering really brasses me off it is really pointless and divisive, however tight the "spec." of the genre, and even then there are fuzzy edges, what really matters is the community involved in making music and singing. I know what I like and I know what i don't like, I hate dried fruit and positively baulk at a scone full of them but where the hell can you get them without, only a few places. Music is the same, and like scones it is economies of scale and its "who's bums on what seats". What labelling might do is point people in a direction that they would not normally go and there are gems out there and fair play to people who flag them up but part of that process also involves people not sharing their enthusiasm for that body of work that doesn't give a licence for those people to denigrate it because it is not to their taste, it might be the best scone in the world but if it has currents in it I will not eat it but I won't say it is a pile of crap. Oh rambled a bit, maybe their ought to be a thread assessing work and, with all the knowledge of the mudcatters experience, positive feedback on what venues might be open or appreciate the type of music flagged up.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 07:43 AM

If I like a song, I learn it and I don't care if it's a folk or a trad song.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:07 AM

IMHO a lot of folk music is a telling of the social history of ordinary people, tied in with the great events that touched them. Those songs were sung and handed down. The successful ones survived but I am sure that there were a lot that didn't.

In the past century there have been songwriters who have blended into the folk tradition, mostly writing songs about events, ancient and modern. I'm particularly thinking of Tom Paxton, Gordon Lightfoot, Gordon Bok and one of my favourites, Utah Phillips. Some of their songs have caught the ear of 'folkies' who then take the songs up and spread them around. Those songs actually say something about life as it is lived and are generally more than just a complaint about how hard it can be or how unfair it is.

If a song is contagious in folk circles it becomes part of the legend, whether it be 200 years old or 2 years old. The critical fact is that it must be a song that people WANT to sing. I think that is the difference, maybe, between folk and other types of music. How well does any song translate when sung without benefit of mikes and recording equipment? Does it need full on musical backing or does it stand alone, sung accapella, or in harmony?

I've sat in sessions where the 'singer songwriter' regales the audience with his latest gem. Unfortunately, all too often these 'gems' are unsingable and do not sit well upon the ears of those listening. They ain't going to end up in the tradition any day soon.

Anyway, that's just my personal opinion

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:08 AM

Actually, none of this matters really. The people don't listen to folk music, they've not listened for a century or more.
I was reading a diary yesterday about VE day 1945, London. Swarms of people were out in the streets celebrating and the diarist says;
"we sang all the old songs, "Roll out the Barrel", "Tipperary" and "Bless 'em all".
For everyone of us in our music ghetto there are thousands who aren't and it's only the "Folk" world that doesn't see that the people have already decided what their songs are and they are not Trad but they are written by people we know. There is some crossover ie The Corries Scottish anthem and Eric Bogle, but generally our people don't want to know the folk world. If they did there'd be huge hit folk musicals,audiences of thousands prepared to pay through the nose to see the great stars, magazines in Smiths with Vin Garbutt on the front cover selling like hot cakes...But it isn't happening and it never will.
It's been the same for three generations or more now and basically renders these discussions meaningless.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:11 AM

There's a difference between the process and the product. A song has to get into the tradition somehow. At it's start, it's a 'song'. Could be a pop hit, could be a show tune, could be one about your mind being a dustbin full of insanity, or any shape of song.

Folk songs - we can probably all agree on this at least - are ones the 'folk' sing. If you're the only person singing it, it's not really the People's song, is it? If you refuse to allow changes while you're alive, it's not the People's song.

There are enough songs out there, and enough good songwriters, that I just won't bother to sing a song if I have to live in fear of a songwriter's disapproval. Being somewhat of a songwriter, no matter how unknown, I know how it feels to let the song go play in the neighbor's yard. It's inevitably changed: sometimes it comes home covered in mud or the neighbor's kid taught it a dirty word, but you have to let it go unless you want it to never leave home. "If you'd love something, set it free..." and if it really WAS yours, you better have registered a copyright. Even if you do, some 'folks' are still going to claim it. The process starts with 'folks' getting their grubby little hands on a song, working their will upon it (complete with mondegreens and other bizarre changes) and passing it on.

The most fun singing times I've had are ones where people don't worry about categories. We sang old songs AND new. I suspect that's closer to how folks in the past did things than choosing committee-approved, certified folk songs.

Let somebody with less joy and self confidence worry about approval. Just sing the damned song.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:44 AM

When a radio interviewer asked Terry Pratchet if he thought his books were "literature", Terry replied something like this.

"Whether you count as literature or not is decided by a vote taken about fifty years after you're dead. I just try to write books that people will enjoy reading."

With folk songs, the process is somewhat similar, although the status of any particular song is established by the people, rather than by the critics. And the vote may sometimes take place while the author is still alive.

Of course, anyone can attempt to write a song "in the folk style".   If they then choose to call the result a "folk song" - well, there's no law that says they can't. But for myself, I think that's a poor decision.

A better approach, in my view, is just trying to write a song that other people will really enjoy singing. If you succeed, and if that song gets sung so often that it becomes part of the shared culture of your community, then it will be a "folk song", by my reckoning. (Though I maintain that it won't be "traditional" until nobody living remembers who wrote it.)

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:47 AM

If you succeed, and if that song gets sung so often that it becomes part of the shared culture of your community.

Fair enough, but if that community chooses an Elton John or a Beatles song rather than something sung in a club session are you happy to accept the people's judgement? Because that's what has taken place in the last 50 years.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: guitar
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:49 AM

what about contempary folk songs?

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 09:11 AM

"Fair enough, but if that community chooses an Elton John or a Beatles song rather than something sung in a club session are you happy to accept the people's judgement?"

What's the alternative? We can argue forever, but our opinions have little or no effect on anyone but us, and it's mainly our blood pressure they affect. Telling the 'folk' what they should and shoudn't sing is futile. They won't listen and likely don't care what anyone else thinks.

My mother used to drive a school bus. The little kids sat in the back and sang "We all live in a yellow submarine, a yellow..." every day. Sometimes several times every day. Now, we know it was a huge Beatles hit with a copyright and everything. We know that song is not a folk song. Those kids woudn't have cared. They just had fun singing it.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 01:14 PM

guitar, the oxymoron "contemporary folk songs" is what the disagreement is all about.

I think what Mike of Northumbria says just above is right on the button.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 01:32 PM

Sea Chanteys do tell a story. They have a progression. The sailors know the stories and that's why they sang them to accompany their work.

Beatles and Elton John Songs are not being sung by masses of people. They are being listened to but not perpetuated to any great degree because they rely on musical production values to carry them. Perhaps in the future some exceptions might include "Give Peace A Chance" or "Imagine".

Why? Because they might be re-written or changed to reflect new times but it could take a hundred years or more for this to happen.

Folk songs do make a difference and are not show, art, or pop tunes. The reason they are important as a distinction has to do with history and cultural background. The Beatles as great as they were (McCartney and Lennon were fantastic songwriters) are still a manufactured pop group put together with expertise by those in the music biz such as the remarkable George Martin. Elton John is an obviously gifted pop artist and entertainer.
But he is a stage personality and you are not apt to hear his songs sung that often in non-show biz environments. You will however hear many folk songs "off the stage" and in living rooms across the country, maybe not easilly discernable unless you happen to be in those living rooms, but they are there and alive.

The reason I became interested in folk music in the first place is because I recognized the distinction between a song created for show purposes and one that survives because it reflects history and culture. I never heard Barbara Allen or Streets of Laredo on the popular radio with exception of perhaps Burl Ives. When I first heard traditional folk singers I knew that they were never going to acheive the same kind of commercial success that a trained pop singer or performer geared to the business would have. The songs, themselves, were different because they informed about the human condition on a sociological, historical and cultural level that a pop song couldn't do. They talked about agrarian cultures, working-class people in their misery, historical events that were embraced by the public that were not instantly manufactured and the music sounded different. It wasn't slick or canned relying on a band to play it. It just was without trimmings and trappings and had its own vitality. Example: The Harry Smith Anthology of American Folk Music on Folkways. Son House, Texas Gladden, Hobart Smith, Vera Hall........... There will be those who say these songs are not important to distinguish but I am not one of them.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Scoville
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 02:14 PM

Good input, Frank. Thanks.

I don't necessarily agree that it's a "poor decision" to allow a contemporary song to be a folk song. The relevance argument fails sometimes even in the old standbys: "Barbara Allan" is a lovely song but doesn't have much more to do with "human condition" than most Victorian or even 1950's pop music (boy meets girl, girl snubs boy, boy dies of broken heart, girl dies of remorse, true love is cruel, boo hoo hoo), which is not really surprising since that kind of thing was pop music when it originated. Furthermore, there must have been many songs from the same era that did not survive in common "folk" reperatoires that would be hailed as rediscovered "folk" if they resurfaced today.

Second, while I think that content ought to supersede style, I think there is at least something of a stylistic element to "folk". I don't know about the UK music scene, but there's a heck of a lot of stuff in the U.S. that many people in this thread would swear up and down is not folk, but stylistically, it would not be at all marketable as rock, country, etc., and it doesn't really belong in any of those categories.

Lastly, there is a lot of new stuff that has at least as much to do with "human condition" and a lot less in common with commercial pop/rock/country music than some other things people would generally consider "folk". Most of the musicians I have in mind are living what they sing and are writing songs because they see stuff that needs to be said. So it's folk-rock or folk-country or whatever. Maybe this is an American perspective, but I don't think you should have to be dead fifty years to "count" if what you've got to say is legitimate.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM

Hi Scoville,

Thank you for your insights.

I don't think its about a decision to allow a song to be a folk song. It just is.

I think there is a qualitative difference in the genuine human emotion that you get from a folk song and a Victorian or 50's pop song in that the latter is more contrived to reach a specific audience and will tailor the emotion to serve that end.

I think that the folk songs that prevailed did so for a reason. Many did not have to be rediscovered because of their essential durability. I doubt whether you could rediscover a Victorian song and claim it to be a folk song without its undergoing adaptation in almost a Darwinian sense. Hence "I Will Twine Midst The Ringlets" by Maude Irving becomes simplified and has a wider appeal through A.P. Carter because the song speaks to a sub-culture of the rural South and at one time although it wasn't greatly played on the radio, you could travel through the Southern US in the Fifties and everyone would know it and request it if you could play it. I called it the unofficial national anthem of the South.

When we get into the discussion of content, then we are in murky waters. Style is apparent but content is open for interpretation. There are many songs that claim a "content" which others might find empty or devoid of it.

Although there are many jazz-oriented or Broadway show songs that don't find their way to the radio, these would not be folk. They may not be in today's market but their exemption from this doesn't mean they are folk songs.

The human condition as a characteristic of folk music is not to say that it doesn't exist in other forms of song expression. I don't agree that the new stuff has the same quality that the folk music has, but it can be good and often addresses the human condition. The difference is that it doesn't have the distilling process of time to make it accessible as does folk music.

Many people are writing songs that they believe are important as social commentary or emotional insights. I don't think many audiences think or care about what is folk because it doesn't seem to concern them. The songs that some write to day have a legitimacy about them because a minority of them are well-written and do convey genuine human emotion. Legitimacy, however, is not necessarilly a province of folk music. A song can be legitimate without being a folk song. Writing stuff that needs to be said doesn't make it a folk song.

Folk-rock, country and most "whatevers" are record company terms used to market music to specific groups of people. I agree that you don't have to be dead fifty years to be legitimate but I do believe that time must elapse before we determine that a song becomes a folk song. The durability of the song is part of the definition of the survival of a folk song. Thus, Stephen Foster's "Angelina Baker" becomes "Angeline the Baker" and a prominent fiddle tune. It goes through the necessary permutations (variants) and distilling process that keeps it alive.

I believe that this is important because the folk song tells us a great deal about the society from which it emanates. There is an anthropological, sociological or ethno-musicological aspect to all of this and if you have listened to folk music for a long time as well as other forms of music, the difference makes itself extremely clear. It just plain sounds different. It is a stylistic and cultural difference and sometimes has little to do with content.

There is a prevalent myth that folk songs must contain social topcial commentary. I don't think that is true. Some do, some don't. Also, it must be stated that those who claim that they know what folk music is are new to the field and have not studied it long or carefully enough.

The big problem I have with folk song academicians is that they are only versed in the folk music and are not aware of the other forms of musical expression such as pop or art or even the craft of songwriting. Their view is limited. They don't have the musical perspective.

Outside of this you have the new singer-songwriter who must defend their position as an artist because it's one of the hardest ways to become accepted. Writing your own songs requires a certain sophistication (even if the song is simple) that comes from experience and a certain kind of education (not necessarilly schooled).

The quality of songwriting as an art in my opinion has degenerated. This is a subjective appraisal but when you look at the output of the writers from the era of the musical theater such as Rodgers, Hart, Berlin, Porter, Gershwin et. al. or from the Eliabethan art songs of Dowland and Campion, the standards for the quality of songwriting today are lower. One reason for this is that not enough time has gone by to determine which songs of all of them written today will stand the test of time and will be shown to have the artistry of the past "masters"

The folk song though prevails. I don't agree that a Barbara Allen is comparable to a 50's pop song because they are "oranges and apples". Barbara Allen is a folk song. The 50's marketable song is not (not to denegrate the 50's pop song, I love lots of them).

The distinction is important because it's not just about the performer who decides what he/she wants the audience to hear. It's about preserving the best elements of a historical and sociological culture and appreciating them in that context.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:26 PM

Well, what the Hell. I'll throw me hat into the ring.
Is The Poozies version of "Love On A Farmboy's Wages" Folk and XTC's original version Pop ?

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:33 PM

Oh shit.

When will people learn, and when will they learn that they need to know something of a subject before becoming experts on it.

When will they ever learn? (Which is not a folk song).

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Steve_Cooperator
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 06:57 PM

Adding my ten-pennerthworth (howoever it is spelt).


It is hard to say just on lyrics alone if a song could be accepted as folk, their is also the melody, phrasing, meter etc. which all have an effect on how the listener catergorises a song. In a way it is easy. You hear a song and you day to yourself - that goes with: folk, jazz, pop, rock, classical, music hall etc etc etc. In the end, it is in the ear of the beholder.

But....

If anyone has strong views on what folk is and isn't then it is up to them to bring this, through performance, educaton, exchange of opinion, and bring attention to exemplary works.

In the end, when I listen to something, it is up to me if I call it folk or otherwise. it is my right to have that opinion, and that opinion is shaped by 25 years+ on the folk scene. Again what I dont call folk, someone else may do. It's their right,....

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,teachers pest
Date: 24 Mar 07 - 08:48 PM

All i can say is that when i heard the great folk hero Richard Thompson do songs by Bowling for Soup and Britney Spears.I then ask myself what do all the trad folkies think of that.Then again like Richard,i don't give a toss.How far removed from folk is country music or blues,all tell stories of a similar kind.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 02:53 AM

...and I agree with what 'Wordy' says!

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:06 AM

"In the end, when I listen to something, it is up to me if I call it folk or otherwise. it is my right to have that opinion, and that opinion is shaped by 25 years+ on the folk scene. Again what I dont call folk, someone else may do. It's their right,...."

Yes, it is up to you what you call it (it's your responsibility). In practice you have a "right" to an uninformed opinion (there's not much evidence in your post that those 25 years have taught you very much) - but the informed have an even greater "right" to disagree with your opinion. As far as I am concerned insisting on your "rights", in these circumsatnces, just emphasises the weakness of your position.

Uninformed, 'off-the-top-of-my-head' theorising brings absolutely nothing to the debate. Although, of course, everyone has a "right" to invent such spurious theories.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST,William the Conqueror
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:13 AM

Please define difine.

Nope,
Folk is traditional - otherwise, difine folk
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: guitar
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:38 AM

you just can't define it, because what isn't folk muisc now in years to come it will be.

tom

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 05:44 AM

I am with Mike of Northumbria. No academician can decide what is a folk song, and no definition helps. Only the people can turn a song into a folk song by taking it up and singing it themselves. And there's the rub: In a society that is more and more geared towards passive entertainment and listening rather than singing and participating, fewer and fewer songs written today will ever have the chance to become folk songs.

For me the issue is not what is a folk song and what isn't, and so what one should "allow" in the context of a folk club or not. No, the real issue is how do we get people singing again, whether in a club or at a wedding party, a wake or a birthday do. And I don't mean shows like X Factor or American Idol; the people going there are driven by their thirst for celebrity status, not the need to express themselves.

If only we could get people singing again, I honestly wouldn't give a toss whether they sing pop, grunge, garage, ballads, folk or whatever. Which is why at our club we encourage people to sing whatever they want; yes, even at Herga, which is still thought by many as the bastion of traditional song. And you know what - you should see that stalwart Johnny Collins nod appreciatively and encouragingly towards the next young lad with a guitar that sings us a page from his diary. Now, that's what I call "folk ETHOS".

But England has largely forgotten how to sing, and I cannot help feeling that this is somehow worse than losing part of one's language. Even at that seminal moment of recent years, Princess Diana's death, when clearly there was so much pent up emotion in the crowds, no song was heard. I can't help feeling that in Ireland or Greece or Spain or Italy it would have been different. Or in England of 50 or 100 years ago.

Today's England is a singing-impaired society. And therefore partially dumb. That's what we should be fixing, not the definition of folk.

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:20 AM

'Please define difine'
How about a misplaced finger!
It's always been my experience that people who are obsessed with typos usually have nothing else to offer,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is this a folk song?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 25 Mar 07 - 06:34 AM

George,

I share your concerns about the decline of singing (any kind of singing) as a social activity. As to what we can do about this - well, I wish I knew the answer. As an illustration of the difficulties involved, here's a piece of family history.

My two sons were exposed to records, radio, and live music from the cradle, and carted off to weekend folk festivals as soon as they were tent-trained. Both played instruments reasonably competently by the age of five or six, performed in the family band before they were ten, and were running bands of their own by their mid-teens. After graduating from university and starting out in "sensible" careers, both were getting so many gigs that they decided to quit their day jobs and become full-time musicians... but neither of them sing!

When they were kids, they refused - very emphatically - to sing, despite massive encouragement from parents, teachers and (adult)family friends). They always seemed unable or unwilling to explain why - but as far as I could tell, they found the idea of singing themselves deeply embarrassing. Moreover, they seemed to feel uncomfortable in the presence of anybody else who was singing live and unamplified - regardless of the genre of the song, or the quality of the singer.

This seems to be a fairly common phenomenon. At festivals, the sessions are crammed with frighteningly talented young instrumentalists, but in the singarounds, young vocalists are rarely noticable. Does anyone out there have any ideas on why this happens, and what we can do about it?

Wassail!