BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Dec 06 - 08:08 AM

Merry Christmas and thanks Epona.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:51 AM

GUEST, 20 Dec 06 - 05:18 AM

"Has Teribus finally lost the plot & now suffering from delusional fantasies?
.....
Now I see he is attacking the people of South West London ?"

You have been asked many, many times to provide one example of attacks against the people of South West London. Guess what GUEST, you have singularly failed to do so at each time of asking - it's certainly not me that's delusional - it's certainly not me that is fantasising - anything I have said in this thread can be backed up, which, oddly enough, is bourne out by the fact that none of what I have said has been challenged or repudiated. So much for me having, "deliberately manipulated intelligent debate to undermine other members by deception".

Divis Sweeney - 20 Dec 06 - 07:57 AM

"Regarding the facts and figures you throw at me from time to time, these bores the ass of most members."

I am sure that they do Divis. They also happen to be rather embarassing for your arguement don't they? Here's a recap just in case they'd slipped your mind -

British Security Forces - 362
Irish Security Forces - 5
Loyalist Paramilitaries - 1020
Republican Paramilitaries – 2056
Unknown/Unattributed – 80

Now tell us again just who it was that the PIRA were "protecting" Divis. Can you explain why the bulk of those killed by the PIRA were innocent civilians. Can you explain just exactly what was the tactical thinking behind the bombing campaign executed on Bloody Friday, and what the additional hoax bomb threat calls were supposed to achieve over that period of time on that day?. You certainly have a great deal to be proud of - I think not - Not a single member of the Provisional IRA EVER gave their life in order to save the life of a single civilian in Northern Ireland or elsewhere - I can give you numerous examples where members of the Police, Security Forces and Emergency Services did exactly that - And Yes Divis I am inordinately proud of them for doing so.

Divis Sweeney - 20 Dec 06 - 01:29 PM

"Regarding actions referred to here carried out by members of the Provisional IRA prior to the Good Friday Agreement,the British government will not be pursing them through the courts seeking custodial sentences. Legislation to drop prosecutions for offences committed before the signing of the Good Friday Agreement was introduced by the British Government.

These were agreed by the two governments during Weston Park talks. They agreed not to pursue the prosecutions of those involved in so called crimes committed before April 1998 (take that one up with your government)."

It would appear Divis that what is sauce for the Goose is not good enough for the Gander. Which is it to be?? If you want names put and responsibility established then it has to universal, it must apply right across the board. That won't happen of course because the leading lights of Sinn Fein would be accutely embarassed, to the point where they would have to step down for their involvement in certain things, no decent human being would want to be in the same room as them, let alone shake them by the hand, or look them in the eye. By the bye the GFA applies to crimes investigated, as previously stated cases such as the McConville case are still open as are the remaining 681 cases relating to the murders of HM Forces Personnel (Only 81 cases were actually ever investigated and the others reamin on the books)

Oh yes Divis, you never, ever did come back to provide justification for the killing of a British Servicemen in retaliation for the murder of Kathleen Feeney, a murder perpetrated by the PIRA - proud of that one too?

The PIRA were liars, thugs, extorsionists, drug dealers (DAAD actually stands for Deter All Alternative Dealers as opposed to Direct Action Against Drugs), murderers, dissemblers. Had the Official IRA line been followed in 1972 then over 3000 Irish men women and children would still be alive today.

Alison M - 21 Dec 06 - 03:13 PM

"Keith A, it is not all the IRA's fault. Loyalists/Unionists have killed plenty of innocent people and the British played a part in this too."

Alison the figures appear above, over two thirds of all who lost their lives did so deliberately at the hands of the PIRA/INLA. I have said so many times on this forum I have got absolutely nothing but complete and utter contempt for ALL the paramilitary groups who operated in Northern Ireland, and I vehemently object to and will counter the arguements put forward by anyone who attempts to excuse or glorify their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:22 PM

Whatever you say Teribus, you are probably right. Sorry not up for a fight at the moment.

Hope you had a great Christmas and good luck for new year.

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Alison M
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:30 PM

Teribus, whatever you say. I am looking forward to a new year and new threads, so maybe you should do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 04:51 AM

Divis, you start these threads and talk so tough, but as soon as someone puts up a challenge you withdraw.
Pathetic.
You are a moral weakling.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:03 AM

Sorry Keith you feel this way about me.
I am sorry if at this moment I am not in the mood to debate with you. I will be more than glad to debate with yourself and Teribus in the near future.

Just at the moment I have had a death in the family and funeral taking place shortly when family get home from overseas.

Thanks

Divis

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 06:05 AM

You have my sympathies Divis.
Best wishes ,
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 08:26 AM

Insert foot in mouth....

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 08:34 AM

Epona , I made the same criticism of Divis on this thread TWICE, on 20th December, before his recent personal tragedies.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 09:02 AM

Keith, winding you up...Sorry, couldn't help myself.

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:01 AM

A cat dying may or may not be classed as a "personal tragedy"

Remove foot from mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:29 AM

Right GUEST I have just about had enough of remarks on this site. There is much more happening in my life right now than the death of a pet.

Without sounding too melodramatic please keep your remarks to yourself, the above one was about as sick as they come.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 10:35 AM

I would absolutely call losing a furry member of the family and a human member of the family during the same period a tragedy indeed, GUEST.

E

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 06 - 03:05 PM

Another Guest thankful that I am an occasional visitor, there are some very weird people on this Site, so long.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 03:01 PM

Ditto!

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:04 PM

Divis seems to have been a lot neareer the action than you and me Keith, and probably a lot nearer than the guy who put together all these statistics you keep coming up with.

He thinks what he thinks. he's allowed to express his opinions without being insulted.

most people who lived through the 2nd world war listen to the stuff on the history channel and call it a load of bollocks.

Its not that he even disagrees with you, he just saw a different war. after all this time, I can't see why you can't understand this.

Can you not detect a degree of sincerity in his beliefs about what he experienced?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:40 PM

NO

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM

*ROFL* So, 'Guest' your head too far up your own arse to see the irony of commenting on someones sincerity, anonymously, eh...

I'm not really surprised.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Head up arse
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:56 PM

All I can see up here is .... You.

Is Hull Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 04:59 PM

Not quite....& nor is Halifax.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:02 PM

What about Huddersfield?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:05 PM

Hmmm, dunno....can't speak for 'Uddersfelt, as havent done much more than travel through the place.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:07 PM

That's probably the most sensible thing you've done.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:15 PM

Bad as that eh?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM

I can feel a song coming on.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 05:59 PM

WLD.you gave me 4 paras.
1 Yes, Divis was a combatant. I was not.
I think that stats keep us rooted in reality and not arguing in a vacuum. No one disputes the stats.
2He IS allowed to express his opinions without being insulted.
If I have insulted him I will apologise. Have I?
3Yes, the same event in history can be seen in many different ways.
4I CAN understand that he sees it differently. Is it not OK to debate with him about it? And why do you only address me?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:14 PM

cos I got a PM from him saying he couldn't take the personal remarks and insults and was going. I think the forum will be poorer for not being able to accomodate someone with a differing viewpoint. If we only listen to people who agree with us, its all going to get a bit like tory party conference.

david Irving disputes the stats

I bet you saddam Hussein would like to dispute the stats.

what d'you mean no one disputes the stats. for every stat theres someone to dispute them.

I address my remarks to you, cos you are sensible.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Peace
Date: 30 Dec 06 - 06:31 PM

The Irish part of me thinks y'all ought to shake hands and let it go. The Scottish part of me seeks sheep. The English part of me wants a cuppa. The Canuck part--which is all of it rolled into one ball--will now have to figure out how to shake hands with a sheep while having a cup of tea.

Dammit to hell. There are too many good people on this thread 'having at' each other and I really wish it would stop. That is, in effect, ALL of you. Please, let it rest. And let us, those of us who have friends like Keith and Divis, not have to even consider choosing side. I truly like both you guys because of the people you are. That's the Divis and Keith I know. I don't know the folks involved in the 'troubles'. Ireland itself has tried to make the troubles a thing of the past. I pray my friends will see their way to do that, too. AND, if you two AREN'T fighting, then I hope I'm never in an Irish bar when people are. I think I would understand the term 'Donnybrook'.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 01:36 AM

Thanks Peace.
WLD I am sorry if Divis is hurt by personal remarks and insults.
I object to them too.
I do not make them.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 04:19 AM

Major thread drift here, largely caused by the obvious (and creditable) guilty feelings of English posters.

Of course the responsibilities for the British atrocities went right to the top. If they hadn't, the people responsible for them would have been rapidly shed from police force, spying organisations and army, and the British government would have made loud haste to dissassociate itself from those atrocities.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 04:20 AM

Guilty feelings?
Who?

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:28 AM

come on now keith, admit it. Its our fault. If it wasn't for us Brits, they'd all be riverdancing and eating potato cakes. it would be a bit like that john wayne film, all the sweet colleens secretly yearning to to have their bottoms spanked by rebels with rugged good looks.

you know it makes sense. just admit it, and you'll feel better.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:47 AM

Subject: RE: BS: To clear a hero's name
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:32 AM

Gulp!
What can I say?
A serious case of egg on my face.
Thank you Guest. Please convey MY apologies to Divis.
Also to readers.
I somehhow missed that post.
Dear Clones, can you work your magic and delete this thread?
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Dec 06 - 08:51 AM

Thanks Guest.
I was just going to post that I AM covered in guilt now.
Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:29 AM

WLD,
stats. of deaths in the troubles are not like those of the holocaust which include estimates and extrapolations.
Each figure is an individual whose death has been reported and in most cases compensated.
Den recently gave a link to a list of every person killed by the security forces, with the circumstsances of each death and known affilliations to paramilitary groups. Such lists could be found for all the deaths.
They really are not disputed.
I use this Irish site if I need figures.
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html#statusperpetrator

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:06 AM

Keith. As the problems in Northern Ireland seem to be over is there any real point in bringing the events in this troubled part of the UK up again and again ?

We have all read the statistics many times and it isn't a score card. These were human lives.

Circumstances of each death and known affiliations to paramilitary groups or the police force or British army should remain as a reminder to us all I agree, but please allow all hostile threads concerning Northern Ireland here to die gracefully.

I am not in anyway inferring you are starting these threads Keith, but we could set by example a new beginning of friendship, reconciliation and understanding by not regurgitating such horrible events again and again here on this site.

I would dearly love to see all of the regular contributors here begin a thread and contribute to conflict resolution and look at the future over there and see what all of you with your knowledge and experience could offer instead of reflecting on the past.

Alan.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:12 AM

I agree Alan.
I did not bring any of this up.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:32 AM

I understand that Keith. So possibly a thread on conflict resolution in Northern Ireland would be a good start and an agreement among you all to ignore any antagonistic entries to your discussion. I myself don't know enough on the subject but I do feel those of you that do can offer something. Just an idea.

Cheers
Alan.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:00 AM

Progress is being made Alan, though painfully slowly sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 02:24 AM

How would you know, Keith?

Corrymeela has been a centre for conflict resolution since you were an altar boy.

REFRESH

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: akenaton
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:54 PM

Just heard George Galloway on BBC 24.

"Why did the sun never set on the British Empire?"

"Because even god couldn't trust the British in the dark"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 07 - 07:59 PM

In the Argentine they use the term "the dirty war" to refer to what happened in their country a few years back. It's an expression that fits the 30 Years War in Northern Ireland just as well.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:58 AM

The Dirty War is also already the title of a book about NI.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Den
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 01:24 PM

Martin Dillon is a great read for anyone interested in the "troubles". He has writen a number of books (including the one that Wolfgang has linked to) such as God and the Gun, the Shankill Butchers, Trigger Men, Rogue Warrior of the SAS: The Blair Mayne Legend, Stone Cold: The True Story of Michael Stone and the Milltown Massacre and Twenty-Five Years of Terror: The IRA's War Against the British.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Epona
Date: 26 Jan 07 - 08:53 PM

Love Dillon's books.

E

PS Hi Tir!

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 05:08 AM

A public inquiry into allegations that the death of loyalist prisoner Billy Wright may have been the result of collusion will be published later today.

The leader of the Loyalist Volunteer Force (LVF) was shot dead in the Maze prison in December 1997.

The murder was carried out by three members of the Irish National Liberation Army (INLA).

Since then questions have been raised as to how Wright could have been murdered inside a high-security prison.

In 2004 retired Canadian judge Peter Cory recommended a public inquiry.

He said he was satisfied that "there was sufficient evidence of collusive acts by prison authorities to warrant the holding of such an inquiry".

That investigation was established in May 2007 under the chairmanship of Lord Ranald MacLean.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 11:03 AM

The finding of the enquiry, no collusion involved in the killing.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,Tìr Chonaill
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

I see the report said "The PSNI had been "slow and reluctant" in providing information which caused the inquiry its "greatest difficulties".

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: GUEST,MikeW
Date: 23 May 11 - 04:55 AM

The findings of a public inquiry into police collusion in the murder of solicitor Rosemary Nelson in Lurgan will be published later today.

She died after a bomb exploded under her car near her home in March 1999.

The family of the solicitor claimed the police and government ignored a series of warnings about threats against her.

She had become a hate figure for hardline loyalists - and police officers - because of some of the clients she represented, some were republicans.


Another client was the Garvaghy Road Residents Group, which opposed an Orange Order march in Portadown.

The solicitor and a number of legal and human rights groups had raised concerns about her safety over a two-year period before she was killed.

They claimed she had been threatened by RUC officers as well as loyalist paramilitaries.

Within hours of the bombing, those groups and her family stated there had been police collusion in her murder.

This afternoon, the government will make public the verdict of a 15-month long public inquiry that examined those allegations.

Subject: RE: BS: British Collusion. The North of Ireland.
From: michaelr
Date: 23 May 11 - 01:01 PM

Gust, Mike W, please return here and let us know the findings.