3 crop circles near Orillia

Subject: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 07:02 PM

2 or 3 days ago 3 crop circles appeared near Orillia, just a few miles from here. There's been a lot of interest, and many visitors. These ones do not seem to be a hoax, as there was no initial trace of footprints going into the area, or anything like that. There are 3 circles...a 30 foot, 50 foot, and 70 foot diameter one. Those are cardinal numbers aren't they?

There have been crop circles done around here that were hoaxes...but these appear not to be.

People are speculating about UFO's, freak whirlwinds, very clinical tornadoes, magnetic anomalies, and so on. Everyone has certain prejudices for or against these various notions, of course.

I did see some UFO's in the late 60's, and I know they do exist, but I don't necessarily connect them with crop circles.

Anyone out there got any theories on this?

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: sophocleese
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 07:05 PM

Sure sign of escaped tiple players in the neighbourhood. Lock your door tonight. I know I will.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 07:12 PM

What is tiple?

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Bert
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 07:19 PM

Gotta be a hoax. Ain't no aliens gonna be measuring things in feet and inches. Unless they stopped at Home Depot on the way and picked up a measuring tape. Oh! I wonder if European crop circles are measured in meters.

Those are cardinal numbers aren't they? ??? so are 1, 2 & 3 (and 4, 5 and 6, and a bloody whole lot of other numbers) what's the significance?

...I did see some UFO's in the late 60's, and I know they do exist... - Be a bit more specific here. If I see a bird in the distance and don't know what it is - that's a UFO. If I see a flash of light in the sky and don't know what it is - that's a UFO. So how do you interpret what you saw if you don't know what it is?

Bert.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Bert
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 07:21 PM

A tiple is a USI (unusual stringed instrument). Now THERE'S something that was almost certainly introduced by Aliens.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Lucius
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 07:22 PM

Morris Dancers.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Bert
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 07:29 PM

I dunno Lucius, Morris Dancers usually dance in a rectangular formation. Much more likely to be Balkan Dancers.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 07:34 PM

Alien Morris Dancers? Morris Dancing Crop Circles? Please be more specific, Lucius!!

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Morticia
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 07:54 PM

more likely bodrhan players.......they put them down and dance around them making an ever increasing circle until they are far enough away to run for it......the depth of the circle reflects the dancers fear of their instrument.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: sophocleese
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 08:41 PM

So, Morticia, if I hang my bodhran on the door they will be scared, run around in circles, and mow my lawn for me tonight? Great! I'll get the hammer and a nail out now.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 10:26 PM

Sheesh! You are a skeptical and cynical lot! Little Hawk, have been to see them?

I saw a UFO out my back door about 5 years ago, and before my whole family saw one in the 60's in Colorado. No, Bert, they were not birds!*bg* The one I saw here was uncanny...hung in one spot in the sky, then dropped straight down like a ton of bricks, changing colours as it fell.

While I believe there is more to the crop circles than we may know, I suppose someone has already thought of smart gophers, who know how to excavate in a perfect circle and size? Or, one that is off its rocker and keeps turning in one direction, going round and round? I know it's a stretch, but, ya never know.....sorry, LH, I would be interested in hearing more of the serious theories.

katanotheralienlifeform!

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: JamesJim
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 10:36 PM

Little Hawk,what have you been adding to your Sasp "Orillia?"

Jim

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: WyoWoman
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 10:40 PM

Little Hawk, I have seen some photos of crop circles that are simply amazing. I have no idea who made them, or with what, but I do know that they're beautiful abstract art and, as with any good art, they leave me (I, who make my living with words) simply speechless. I've seen some of the "hoax" crop circles, too, and they're a completely different thing. The "real" ones are fascinating and beautiful and baffling.

I've put them where I put other Mysteries of the Universe, in a box in my psyche labeled "Awaiting Further Light." I don't know that we'll ever find out their source, but I think they're a thing of beauty and I would love to see one up close.

Where is Orilla? Remember you have a worldwide conversation going on here -- I don't even know which continent you live on.

WW

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Les B
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 10:55 PM

So are crop circles Alien song circles ? Inquiring minds want to know.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 10:56 PM

Hy Wyo. Orillia is one of the most beautiful towns in Canada. About 100 miles north of Toronto. Home of the writer Stephen leacock (not any more 'cause he's been dead for 60 years). Birthplace of the Mariposa Folk Festival (Leacock's name for Orillia in his books was Mariposa) and Gordon Lightfoot.

Nice place. I'm doin' a concert there later in the year.

I love that there's a POSSIBILITY of crop circles. Not convinced though. Too many websites about them with too many folks writing books and giving guided tours for lots of dinero.

Rick

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 11:03 PM

But, Rick, the crop circles came before all of the money-making hype, long ago, right? The originals at least?

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: WyoWoman
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 11:07 PM

Yeah, well, I don't really care if they're extra-terrestrial graffiti or human artists having a good time goofing on the general public. Some of them are very cool to look at and for the time being I'm happy to take them as that and nothing more.

I do think they're much too organized to be caused by wind or some "accidental" phenomenon. There's obviously a consciousness at work creating them -- for what purpose, who knows? And with what technology? That's the part that puzzles me. The ones I've seen have been pretty precise-looking.

I've seen photos of some that were later confessed to as hoaxes, and they looked pretty rough -- the guys had just stomped down the hay or whatever. But the more complex ones are obviously being done with machinery. I think it'd be cool to see them from the air -- really large sculpture for your viewing enjoyment. Sure beats the in-flight movies!

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 11:10 PM

some guys in England finally confessed to doing some of the circles that had the 'experts' puzzled for several years...even did a demo of how they pulled it off (was on TV)...so now there is a manual available...*grin*...

It is a BIG universe out there...I'm sure aliens live out there, but NO ONE has EVER caught one or photographed one or found a ship...or...or...(no, don't tell me about Roswell..*grin*...saw all the programs about THAT one!...)

It is just the case that some people are wired to WANT to believe, and some of us are wired to be sceptics...I have standards for what I consider 'proof'..(of aliens, elves, ESP, God, Elvis,..and a whole lot more..*giggle*..)The thing is, it doesn't bother me to just wait and read....I don't have to have an opinion yet.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Rana
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 11:23 PM

OK,

I know we (Green Fiddle Morris) danced at the Arts for Peace festival some months ago but I can vouch that we didn't do any crop circles! Might have been Orange Peel though - any comments from John B.?

On the other hand could the circles have been trying to be the Mariposa "sun" after their successful festival this year?

Rana

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Mbo
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 11:25 PM

My and my Dad saw a UFO once. It was pretty damn scary, and it was during the day too. When my Mom was an MP with my Dad, in Albany (Georgia) she and fellow MP Lumpy saw a UFO. They said it was spooky too. The other MP in the truck was too ditzy and didn't see it.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: sophocleese
Date: 15 Aug 00 - 11:52 PM

Well apparently its not a first for Orillia. September of 92 saw a crop circle as well.

NAICCR report states: "- one large oval patch of flattened corn was found in a field near Orillia. The area was 75 by 100 feet, on the south slope of a south-facing hill, only about 100 feet from a major highway. The corn was flattened and swirled in a counterclockwise direction. Reported to NAICCR. Source: Colin McKim."

I don't know if bodhrans had been seen in Orillia before that date though.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:51 AM

Well, I've been out much of the day, and am pleased on my return to see that people have been posting to this one.

The crop circles in the corn that sophocleese mentions were a few years back, and they happened about a mile and a half from where I'm presently living near Orillia, Ontario, Canda. They were a hoax, and a fairly obvious one.

There have been other well documented crop circles in many places that could not possibly have been hoaxes, and obviously were created by some form of purposeful intelligence. Whether it was UFO's I do not know, nor do I have any strong opinion on that.

Skeptics generally remain skeptics, because their emotional safety net is built around just that...and they will not bother to investigate further on the matter.

And that is why, Bert, I do not bother much any more explaining the details of my own UFO experiences to a skeptic. I know there will always be skeptics, as long as the UFO's don't descend by the thousands on every piece of land on this Earth and all on the same day (as in "Independence Day", a stupendously idiotic movie). And I know that no amount of personal testimony by me or anyone else (such as Jimmy Carter or a great many other famous and well-informed people) will serve to make the skeptic change his mind.

It is rather akin to a native on a little Pacific island trying to explain to the other natives that he saw a huge wooden ship go sailing by, with giant white wings hanging from tall bare trees...and what looked like almost human figures clustered on its decks, dressed in strange gear and armour! Ha! The other natives laugh at him, accuse him of being drunk on fermented coconut juice, say he had a hallucination, say he must have been asleep and dreamed it, because EVERYBODY knows that there is no such thing as alien beings from other islands. They'll even say he's lying just to get attention!

The UFO guys I saw could no doubt take over this planet if they wanted to. They obviously don't want to. Maybe they have reached a higher moral plane than the Spanish conquistadors or our own present civilization and are content to simply observe and not interfere. Or maybe this place is just too small and backward in their terms to really merit more than a bried look.

The possibilities are endless.

I have never met a born skeptic yet who had a sincere interest in finding out anything he hadn't already made his mind up about. Only a direct UFO experience of his own will change that...and that's been known to happen.

I find our present political, monetary, and social system a lot harder to believe in than space aliens...if you know what I mean...

What I meant to say about cardinal numbers is that 3, 5, and 7 are cardinal numbers, and that may have a symbolic significance, like a code. There has been a great deal of apparently intentional numerical structure of a coherent sort in crop circles, as well as in structures such as the pyramids in Egypt and Central America. This raises many questions. Numbers and geometry are sacred in most ancient traditions, as they reflect spiritual order and structure amid the apparent chaos of creation. As above, so below.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 04:34 AM

I'm a natural sceptic, if David Copperfield can make the Empire State building disappear....As has been said crop circle hoaxers have shown how they do it but some people prefer to believe other explanations. Not all hoaxers take the short-term view: Piltdown Man, Peter Scott's "Nessie" photos, the fairy photos that fooled Conan Doyle, were only revealed as hoaxes decades after they were perpetrated. I only studied Psychology as a minor subject but learned enough about human perception to know how we can delude ourselves about what we see and hear. After all, I believe I sing in tune despite all the evidence to the contrary (perhaps I use an alien scale!).
But I remain willing to be convinced!

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: bill\sables
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:15 AM

Mbo, what do you mean by an MP. In England MP means Member of Parlement and they, as we all know, are the best liars in the world.
Cheers Bill

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:50 AM

Please, my friends, read "The Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. Then take a moment to reflect on the disasters of the first centuries of the second millenium.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 07:46 AM

There's not much to be added to the good arguments from Roger t.s., just three remarks:
- there are also illusions of memory (my study object) adding to the illusions of perception
- "some people are so open-minded that their brains start to fall out" (forgot the source of the ciatation) - Little Hawk, you do not seem to know what 'cardinal numbers' are. 1, 3, 5 are cardinal numbers, true, but so are 2, 4, 6, ...19,...,32,.... And you can measure the crop circle diameters in feet, meters, inches. Taking into account the unavoidable measurement inaccuracy , each conceivable crop circle on earth will have a diameter that is a cardinal number. So what?

Wolfgang

(Three new song circles have been found in the south of Germany. And for all three of them the number of members can be given by a cardinal number. That must have a deeper meaning)

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 08:08 AM

Mp in the US means Military Police, as far as I know.

Little Hawk, I am with you on this one, but don't have the info I wanted to post to hand. Will try to find it later. My brother has written about sacred geometry in music in ancient civilisations and took it into consideration when writing his book, "Earthquake Prevention Through MetaMusic©".

Wonder what the skeptics said to the Wright Brothers? As science is constantly evolving, I wouldn't want to fall prey to a rigid idea of what can and cannot be and in doing so wind up with it as my religion.

like i said,

katanotheralienlifeform *g*

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: MMario
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 08:24 AM

Does littlehawk perhaps mean "prime" numbers?

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Grab
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 08:40 AM

I presume by "cardinal number", LittleHawk means "prime number"...

LittleHawk, I would take exception to your assertion that

Skeptics generally remain skeptics, because their emotional safety net is built around just that...and they will not bother to investigate further on the matter.

I'm sceptical, not bcos I can't be bothered to investigate, but bcos I've yet to see compelling evidence for it. Plenty of accounts of UFOs, so maybe they do exist, but I've yet to see any clear evidence (non-faked clear pictures, ie. not weather balloons or smears on a grainy film, or physical evidence). And don't tell me about government coverups and shite like that - it's amazing how governments can be so bad at running the country, but are so good at covering up alien activity (I know it's a Terry Pratchett line :-) Obviously personal experience or the personal experience of someone I trusted would change my mind, but until there's clear evidence, I'm a sceptic.

Incidentally, there's plenty of accounts of Nessie sightings too, but there's no evidence (unfaked, anyway!), no sonar scans have found anything, and there's not enough fish in Loch Ness to sustain an animal of that size. Hence I'm sceptical of that too, but if someone found some proof, I'd be prepared to change my mind.

And LittleHawk, "sceptic" does NOT mean "we're not prepared to believe". It means "there's no proof, so rational thinking says it probably isn't the case", but it doesn't mean we wouldn't change our minds if given proof.

Personally, I find some folk's blind faith in UFOs, ley lines, magnetic therapy and crystal healing to be a near-religious conviction, and the key point with a religion is that you don't try to prove it, you just BELIEVE. In fact, as Christianity and Islam have shown, when you prove scientifically that a religious belief is wrong (eg. the Flood didn't cover the entire world), there's some ultra-believers who just won't accept it. If it were possible to prove beyond doubt that UFOs didn't exist at all, and what you saw was a hallucination or some freak weather phenomenon, would you be prepared to accept that, or would you still stick with your version? If someone proves that UFOs DO exist, I'm fine with that - it'll fsck up the world something chronic, but it'd be indisputable. Would you be able to accept it if someone proved the negative?

The obvious next question - how do I explain crop circles then? Well, like UFO sightings, there's so many fakes that you'll have a hell of a job to find real "unexplained" ones. Sure, maybe a UFO with a tractor beam could explain it, but that's a "deus ex machina" explanation - an alien with a tractor beam could also be stopping my car from starting in the morning, and I couldn't prove it one way or the other. Now if someone can show me a crop circle which couldn't have been produced by folks armed with boards who walked through the crops carefully, which has been examined by impartial scientific investigators (as opposed to New-Agers, or "Erich von Daniken"s with a vested interest), and which conveys a message, I'll be interested. 3 concentric rings isn't exactly a message, is it? If this is being done by aliens to attract our attention, assuming these ultra-intelligent aliens can't be bothered to write or jam our TVs or whatever, why do they do it? If it's communication, then it can only be to test us, to see if we can understand it, but then how do we write back and say, "The answer's 3.1415927 - next question..."? Communication HAS to be 2-way, and I've yet to see any way to talk back. Unless they want us to scribble something in the grass ourselves, in which case they're going to be mightily confused by all the crop circles around Glastonbury! :-) And if it's just the space-ship's landing-pads where it touched down (assuming they've got anti-gravity drive so they don't need rockets which would burn the crop), then the 30-50-70 arrangement has no more mathematical significance than the spacing of wheels on your car, so that's out!

Grab.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: hesperis
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 10:38 AM

Grab - "it's amazing how governments can be so bad at running the country, but are so good at covering up alien activity (I know it's a Terry Pratchett line :-) "

I don't remember that one, was it from Fifth Elephant? That's the only one I haven't read. (Unless there's more now...) My friend was going to buy it and then lend it to me, but he didn't get it yet!!! Waaah! I need my Pratchett fix!

I don't know enough about crop circles, aliens, etc. Never really been that interested in aliens.
I always figured there are enough species here on Earth which are alien to our way of thinking, that we could be trying to communicate with them rather than looking for beings elsewhere.

I know plant devas exist because I've talked to them and had "coincidences" happen in my garden. Aside from that, if there really were aliens, why would they want to attract our attention? Humankind hasn't been the greatest at getting along with ourselves, much less with strange lights in the sky.

Just my $0.02

~*sirepseh*~

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 11:07 AM

Yes, it's prime numbers, not cardinal numbers. You are quite correct on that. "Little Hawk" probably could be analyzed in terms of prime numbers for all I know...that wouldn't prove or disprove anything, of course, so I'm not going to bother.

A number of you are entirely correct in your observations that there are many "believers" of paranormal things who do so because of their emotional needs, and that this is unrealisitc of them. Granted. Likewise there are many sceptics who are sceptics because of their emotional needs. In other words, there are some essentially quite irrational people on both extremes of the issue. This doesn't prevent them from being absolutely certain they are right, dead right.

I had no belief whatsoever in UFO's or in anything spiritual or other-worldly either at the age when I first had a sighting of what were unquestionably alien and intelligently piloted craft over a lake in New York State. In those days I was the most rational, scientifically minded kid you could ever have possibly met. I believed in science and proven fact...nothing else. I thought all religiously minded people were idiots.

I have since changed my mind on all of the above, due to actual direct experience. If you should chance to have such actual direct experience, you will also change your mind...or else go crazy.

Until then, rest comfortably in your chosen opinion.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 11:08 AM

Oh, a little story:

When they opened the first zoo in North America, a basically uneducated country farmer came in to look at it. He stood for the longest time in front of the giraffe enclosure, scowling at the giraffes. Finally, he remarked bitterly to no one in particular, "Ain't no such animal!" and left in a huff. Great example of a born sceptic.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 11:08 AM

So the numbers are significant AND the cicles are measured in feet, therefore these 'Aliens' also use Imperial Units. So their culture would have originated in England a few hundred years ago or less. REALLY!!!

They are a hoax Little Hawk, someone is pulling your pisser, get over it - move on.

Which leads to three possibilities,
first, the reporter was in on the hoax.
second, the reporter knew it was a hoax and wasn't prepared waste time on further investigation.
and last, the reporter attached some important significance to their origin, but was either too lazy or too stupid to obtain enough information to enable the readers to make an informed judgement.

If you say they are significant then tell me.
How many measurements were taken to arrive at the diameters?
To what degree af accuracy were they measured? To the nearest foot? To the nearest inch? To the nearest sixteenth of an inch?
How are the circles arranged? Concentric?, in a straight line? in a triangle?
If they are not concentric then how far apart are they?


Saying 'I saw a UFO' doesn't tell me anything. You saw something that was unidentified! So what? Now if you had said 'I saw something which I identified to be an alien spacecraft' That tells me something and I'll ask... How big was it? What colour was it? What identfying marks did it have? How big were the doors and windows? In fact I'll have hundreds of questions for you because if you're right then your sighting was of major significance. But too see something that you can't identify! - Big deal!

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 11:08 AM

On Crop Circles--I saw that TV documentary too. It seems that the intricate geometry was derived from the width of the furrows in the field (or subtle tracks where machines had been used previously.) Anyway, the hoaxers would walk in those tracks in order to hide their footprints. All the circles were made with fairly primitive tools and in only a few hours. The hoaxes they showed on the show were quite impressive.

On UFOs--When I lived in Alabama, the Air Force Base in northern Florida would sometimes sent all kinds of experimental gases and objects into the sky. It was quite disconcerting to see things we didn't understand. It was amazing the way colored gases would expand and dissipate in the atmosphere over time.

As far as believing either of these...I just don't have the time to think much about them. I believe in being very open-minded, but also know that there are just too many explanations beyond my understanding or willingness to invest time in learning about.

Now, back to the bodhran players...and Morris Dancers...I really need to learn more about them.

Mary

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:14 PM

"pluritas non est ponenda, sine necessitate"

.....William of Occam

briefly, it means "don't use a more complicated explanation than necessary to explain something"

I have read science fiction for many years...I would LOVE to know that there is some truth to the more....ummmmm....'interesting' stories and sightings. Being a sceptic does NOT mean dis-believing, just that I do not believe without strong proof....

Also,there is a big difference between things which could be proved, but haven't yet, and things which, by definition, are not succeptable to usual standards of 'proof'...(re-birth, ghosts, elves, etc.)....aliens in ships mashing our crops in silly patterns 'could' be proved...but an awful lot of effort has gone into it, and no one has yet. Sincere, honest people telling amazing stories simply are NOT proof...aliens tired of teasing us and parking one of those ships and walking into a lab and donating DNA samples would be MUCH better..(boy, do I want to ask them some questions about the game!!)

" If you should chance to have such actual direct experience, you will also change your mind...or else go crazy. ".....nope, sorry...I am too aware of what the mind CAN do, I have "seen" things that it turned out later were just no true...now if 23 OTHER people saw exactly the same thing at the same time and described it the same way without us comparing notes...*grin*...

This does NOT mean you didn't see a ship,,,etc..it just means you are in a LONG list of those who saw them and ain't got no Kodak prints...I sure DO wish I could join the list so I could compare notes...

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: sophocleese
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:37 PM

THanks Bill D. for bringing up Occam. Some or all crop circles may be a hoax and some may be a strange happening. They are interesting but I get frustrated when they get linked to UFOs. Efforts should first go towards proving that they aren't made by humans and then finding terrestrial explanations for them before even beginning to speculate on the possiblity of aliens.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:42 PM

There's was this (humorous) TV show that was about a kid who went back in time, and met Davy Crockett. In one scene, Davy and his other pioneer friends see a comet in the sky. Not knowing what it is, they are puzzled. The kid says "Hey cool! Maybe it's a UFO, or maybe ET!" One guy with a slow Tennesee drawl says "Nope, I don't think it's an oofo OR an et!"

--Matt

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 01:20 PM

hey...I saw this other thread entitled "Cape Cod Circles"...turns out it was about music....which makes me wonder...what if the aliens are landing to sing and play banjos and bodhrans and accordians and really do NOT want to admit to it?

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 01:27 PM

banjos and bodhrans and accordians - Ah! That's where they came from - THE ALIENS.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 01:47 PM

There have been some comments that skeptics do not want to investigate these occurrences. I'm sorry to deflate that but there is an organization that specializes in such investigations. They publish a monthly magazine called the Skeptical Inquirer. The problem they have is getting results under laboratory conditions or getting the claimants to agree to a control on any experiment.

These are not people who necessarily go into these experiments with closed minds. They are genuinely interested in finding proof but they require that proof to conform to the scientific method. So far they have been unsuccessful. This does not prove that the phenomena do not exist, they insist, just that they are so far unprovable and therefore should not be accepted as fact.

William of Occam said it best. Paraphrased it is that the simplest of explanation is the best one. Which is the simpler explanation of crop circles, aliens crossing interstellar distances or weather and hoaxers?

I firmly believe in extraterrestrial civilizations. I do not believe that those civilizations would cross the unimaginable distances between stars to merely make circles in our fields.

One of the things that people seem to forget is how far apart our worlds are. The light from our nearest neighbor takes over four and a half years to reach us. The fastest vehicle cannot begin to approach the speed of light so we are talking twenty to thirty years to cross that gulf. Our next nearest neighbor is over 6 light years away. Where is the logic in crossing those distances and not stopping in for a chat and cuppa?

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 03:19 PM

My theory is: Termites. When the moon is in the Seventh House (and Jupiter aligns with Mars), millions of termites come up from underground when nobody is looking. The males hold hands, forming concentric circles around the Queen Termite, dancing to attract her favor. There is a great deal of handkerchief waving, and shouting of "hopa!" and the like. Finally the Queen selects the one with the best looking moustache, and devours him. Then the other suitors follow her back down to the underground nest, where they wait patiently for the next moon, playing Mah Jongg. == Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: cleod
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 03:53 PM

How do we know that aliens aren't performing 'grafitti tagging' on our fair landscape, looking at it from above in their UFOs, and pointing them out to their buddies, "Look, that's the one I made three hundred years ago when I was drunk off my ass! Ha! Isn't it neat? Those darn humans still can't figure it out! What a hoot!" - loosely translated from alien

But seriously, I do think there's life out there. Looking at our track record, though, who would want to befriend us?

My two centavos, cleod

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: WyoWoman
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 03:55 PM

"The finest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle." Albert Einstein

Skeptics are only those who want to see proof and to come to conclusions after they've seen sufficient information and research upon which to make judgements. There's nothing at all wrong with being skeptical -- I am even a TRAINED skeptic, having been a journalist for 20 years -- skepticism is the foundation of our science and has an honorable place in human knowledge and culture.

Cynics, on the other hand, are as unavailable to logic as the most starry-eyed romantic and automatically assume that everything is full of shit, and have a great personal investment in being right about that. That's as stupid in its way as utter gullibility.

Anyway -- I'm not sure "hoaxer" is an appropriate term to use here. That implies that someone is making claims as to the extraterrestrial origin of ALL these phenomena, and I don't think that's the case. Some of them just turn up, without comment -- and of course, as humans need an explanation for absolutely everything, people immediately jump into the breach with their own interpretation of what these are.

Again, some of them are clearly a clumsy attempt to either make fun of people who believe these are UFO-related, or they're attempts to create the phenomenon for personal gain.

However, distinct from those are some others that are, purely and simply, works of art. HUGE, complex works of art at that. Again, I don't know how they were created, but they're beautiful, elegant and delightful to behold. If someone, or several someones are making the circles of which I've seen photos, he/they are brilliant creators and I'd love to just have a conversation with them about how they DID that. There are now allegedly about 10,000 crop circles worldwide, with 400 or so appearing yearly in England (Maybe it's the druids' ancient spirits playing around from Over Yonder, or as y'all would spell it, Yondre.)

Check out these: (If you can't find them on any Internet sites, I'll make copies of some images I have here and email them to you, if you'll PM me. But try to find them yourselves first because I'm dealing with multiple work deadlines and don't have time for much play).

Milk Hill, England, August 1997.
Litchfield, England, July 1995
Alton Barnes, England, June 1996
East Meon, England, July 1995
Avebury Trusloe, England, August 1994
Avebury, England, August 1994
Barbury Castle, England, April 1997
And a simply amazing one at, yup, you guessed it: Stonehenge, July 1996
My favorite, for delicacy and complexity, is one allegedly found at Windmill Hill, England, July 1996. It's this enormous spiral of circles coming off a center hub like filigree spokes, with smaller ornamental circles of diminishing size flanking the larger circles. The thing that impresses me about the photo (and maybe it's just cleverly superimposed photos. who knows? But again, the images are really sublime) is how perfectly balanced the circles are in relation to each other -- a symmetry you wouldn't really be able to appreciate until you've gotten a few thousand feet up in the sky...

I say it's art and I love it because it sends my imagination into overdrive -- as very little art seems to these days. So, bring'em on. (Of course, I might feel different if it were my crops being smushed, but that's another issue...)

WyoWoman

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Mbo
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 04:07 PM

The reason why the UFO my Mom & Lumpy saw flew away, so my Mom says, was the aliens went "No signs of intelligent life here!"

--M

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Bert
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:05 PM

'Yes it's prime numbers!!!' Since when have 30, 50 and 70 been prime numbers? If you divide any number by all but one of it's factors you'll get a prime number.

You're right Wyo, some of them are very beautiful. I don't see anything wrong with wanting an explanation for them, and I think it's quite in order to lightly tease someone who gives a partial, incomplete or poorly interpreted explanation.

If Little Hawk had said that the diameters are in the relationship 3:5:7 it would have been different. But as this particular example is measured in feet, a terrestrial system of units, it is reasonably logical to assume it to be of terrestrial origin.

Bert.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:22 PM

I agree with WyoWoman on the beauty of the circles. They are works of art. But these works of art are a form of grafitti because in the creation something is damaged, namely the farmer's crops. So why would an all too human artist hang around to take credit (and the legal hassle and fines) for his/her works of art?

The quote by Einstein is appropriate if you remember that he was talking about something he knew very well, the ability to wonder. He said it very well when he said that ability was the "fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science"

Scientists and skeptics are well able to wonder and marvel at the world. They see the things that are and their curiosity drives them to look deeper. The difference between them and those who follow the pseudosciences is the way they pursue that wonder. The followers of pseudoscience see something wondrous and accept it on the surface without asking more about it. The scientist and skeptic asks why and how and thereby uncovers more layers of wonder and beauty than pseudoscience can even acknowledge.

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:26 PM

Banjo Johnny reminds me of one of my all-time favorite Peanuts cartoons...

Charlie Brown is walking along when he comes to Lucy, kneeling and looking at something on the sidewalk..."What are doing , Lucy?"

"Charlie Brown--see this big black bug? Do you know why it's so much bigger than the others? Because it's the QUEEN!"..........so Charlie gets down and peers closely...

"Lucy, that's not a bug...that's a black jelly bean!"

Lucy gives him this LOOK and bends to scrutinize the bug again..."Why, so it is!...I wonder how a Jelly bean ever got to be queen!"

...I have met SO many Lucys in my time...they will just NOT have their favorite theories disputed.(Anthropologists who are SURE they have found the missing link are a prime example)

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 06:03 PM

I did hear that the Jim Kweskin jug band is practicing for some reunion concerts. This obviously is the site they chose to do that -- a cornfield. Why? So it would be music to their ears.

The circles are where Fritz Richmond put down his washtub bass.

Case closed.

That said, over a few decades a close relative of mine has been interviewing people who say they've had experiences with flying saucers. Just answer me this, folks:
Why should an 80 year old couple "come clean" after 40 or 50 years and have a huge need, in their declining years, to get an experience they had in their youth half a century earlier OFF THEIR CHESTS? They insisted on anonymity. There was no need for, or even a desire for, notoriety of any kind. They were terribly upset by their experience---which they simply had to tell someone about. There was a measure of serenity for them that was secured just by putting their experience on the record. And this happened many times in various places all over the map. My relative told me, when I asked if he believed these people, "Art, something happened to these people. All I can say is they were scared shitless -- quite upset by even wanting to tell the tale. It was something they needed to do before they died. They had no ax to grind and nothing to gain, moneywise or otherwise, except the small measure of serenity gained from spillng their guts---finally.

Just thought I'd toss that out. Personally, I've never had any experience even remotely like any of these folks' tales. All I can do is wonder.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: little john cameron
Date: 16 Aug 00 - 06:30 PM

OK fowks ah wis avoidin this threed but it sucked me in.Hae a wee keek in here,http://www.paradigmshift.com/
The brownies can fix this fur me please. LJC

Subject: RE: 3 crop circles near Orillia
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 17 Aug 00 - 12:36 AM

OK, perhaps I should know better, but can someone give me a straight (unbiased) answer to this: Simply...The circles that have been admitted to as prank...Exactly HOW are they different from the ones with no explanation?

Had it not been for observing the antics of the clergy over the years, I might be religious today.

Had it not been for observing the antics of "mediums" and "commercial psychics" I might believe in the spirit world today.

Had it not been for listening to several late night radio shows and hearing the advocates of "the spirituality of crop circles" I might not be so skeptical.

But I still find the dialogue interesting.

Rick