Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasi
From: pdq
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:45 PM

Red Buttons?

He caught a tree full of monkeys.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 07:45 PM

Buttons?

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 08:01 PM

cross-posted with pdq, above!

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 09:06 PM

Ah, some welcome relief. Praise thread drift! I have my mother's button hook. It's hard to believe that I am only one generation removed from using button hooks to button your shoes. I think it's a Democrat (or is it Democratic) button hook. You use it with your left hand.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Kent Davis
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 10:51 PM

As a socially conservative, economically libertarian, Republican, I regret the assumption that "folk = left/liberal/Democrat".

It's an odd assumption. Given that a conservative is a traditionalist, and given that folk music is traditional, it is exceedingly odd.

I certainly appreciate the work of many leftists, Pete Seeger for example, in preserving music that would otherwise have been lost, but his politics do not come from the music, nor does the music come from his politics. I appreciate everyone who, in the '60s, collected, revived, and popularized the music of an earlier time. We owe them a great debt and, without a doubt, many of them were leftists.   

Yet there is nothing INHERENTLY leftist about folk. "Barbara Allen" is not an arguement for socialized medicine, nor is "John Henry" an arguement against free trade. For every song with a "progressive" agenda, there is probably another with a socially conservative agenda. We've got "More Work in a Day" supporting traditional gender roles, "Cocaine Blues" supporting abstinence from illicit drugs, "Fair and Tender Ladies" supporting sexual abstinence, "The Young Man Who Wouldn't Hoe Corn" supporting hard work and self-reliance, "What Wondrous Love" supporting theism, and so on and on. My point is NOT that these are right-wing conservative Republican songs. They are not.

They are songs of the folk, and that is all of us.

Even us Republicans.

Kent

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasi
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 09 - 11:59 PM

Well said, Kent.

I guess the liberal folksingers see the liberal side of all those things, and perhaps the conservative do the conservative side as well. O don't by the way consider hard work and self reliance a conservative virtue--its the only way to a fully successful life. The difference is in the fruits of the hard work. The consequences of the actions taken. This is especially important when one's efforts get multiplied by financial success.


A

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Kent Davis
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 01:24 AM

Amos,

I agree. I don't suppose self-reliance, or hard work, or ANY virtue belongs exclusively to conservatives, or exclusively to liberals. There is a difference, though, in which virtues each group tends to emphasize.

Appreciation for diversity is, for example, a virtue not limited to liberals, yet it is a virtue that liberals especially praise. I realize that real liberals don't always possess that particular virtue, just as I realize that conservatives don't always live up to their ideal of self-reliance.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that liberals aren't self-reliant or hard-working. That would be silly, as silly as if, for example, someone were to imply that conservatives didn't care about the poor.

Kent

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 07:01 AM

For most people folk music is music folks sing. It doesn't have an agenda. I don't sing Down on Penny's Farm (as my example) because I am speaking for downtrodden tenant farmers, or small farmers who are being plowed under by large corporate conglomerates. I don't march around the coffee house carrying a placard saying Mister Penny Unfair To Tenant Farmers. I wouldn't sing Bay Rum Blues to protest the increase in tax on liquor, either. The only songs I've ever sung that had an agenda are ones I wrote during the Vietnam War. I wouldn't even include the gospel I sing and write as having an agenda, as I am not evangelizing. I'm just singing what I feel and what I enjoy singing. I think that's true of most people. But not all. I've also written lines like "An honest day's work for an honest day's pay was enough for a hard-working man."

All that said, Folk music (I think) has much more often been used as a means of drawing like-minded people together to rally for improved working conditions (ever hear one used as a rallying cry for Bosses unite?)or to rebel against unjust wars or social injustice. It is a powerful tool, and has been used for positive change in this country. And is still being used for good.

I could probably do an evening of folk music and believe that I didn't sing a single "protest" song, while someone else with a different mind frame would think that most of the songs I sang were protest songs.

And good on you Kent, for your post. The one point I'd add is that songs that no longer are sung as protest songs may well have BEEN protest songs at the time they were written. Now they're more of a window to the past.

And a hell of a lot of fun to sing. Whether you're liberal or conservative.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 11:25 AM

Point of information Buttons is a friend of Cinderella especially in pantomime versions.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 03:06 PM

At the inception of the Old Town School of Folk Music, we found that folk music transcended politics, religion or any of the issues. It brought people of various persuasions together in harmony and it still does.

The "Us and Them" problem isn't just folk as we know. It's a terrible mindset that eliminates sharing of information and discussion. I don't think that folk music can be used for persuasion of any kind. People believe what they want regardless of what they sing.

Today, I think the bias factor politically doesn't work at all. That goes for Right or Left. Historically, there have been protest songs of the Left that is a small part of the body of folk music. It's harder to find a Capitalist song that extols the virtues of the stock market unless it's a parody. Any song can be used as a doctrinaire interpretation of its meaning just like the Constitution or the Bible.

Labels are increasingly losing their meaning. Many Democrats today are no longer "liberal". What does it mean to be a Conservative? If you care about the environment and global warming, you are a conservative as conservationist. If you believe that bailing out large banks without regulations is foolhardy, you might be a conservative or liberal.

The labels were more sharply defined in earlier times more than they are today.

I don't know too many of those who admired the Kingston Trio who thought of them as a "liberal" group. Even Walter Progressive Party Candidate, Walter J. O'Brien of the M.T.A. was expunged in favor of a fictitious George so as to not cause controversy.

I'm "beating a dead horse" here. Folk music will always transcend any political, religious or ideological point-of- view.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 04:02 PM

I couldn't agree more, Frank:

Jerry

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 06:58 PM

I don't think that folk music can be used
for persuasion of any kind.

If that were true it would mean that folk songs were a pretty unusual use of language. We use words to influence other people all the time, and just because we sing them they don't somehow lose that power.

So much for love songs...

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Aug 09 - 07:53 PM

Love songs, eh? I think of them as an expression of love, not a means for persuading someone you love them. Maybe I never got it right? I never loved a woman with black hair. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 03:32 AM

"I don't think that folk music can be used for persuasion of any kind."
Not sure about that, but it certainly can introduce people to an alternative point of view even if it doesn't persuade them. Many of the songs exposed the atrocities in Viet Nam and encouraged the setting up of across-the-board organisations as Folksingers For Freedom in Viet Nam.
It can also serve as a tremendous morale booster - kept many of us going on the long miles from Aldermaston to London.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 06:14 AM

" I don't think that folk music can be used for persuation of any kind" don't forget that it was said that "Lilly bolaro" 'sang' James the second from three thrones.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:14 AM

I'm "beating a dead horse" here. Folk music will always
transcend any political, religious or ideological point-of-
view.
[QUOTE Frank Hamilton]absolutely correct,but it can also include it,here are two examples of songs that fall into both categories,Polly Vaughan or Tam lin,and in the other category,Which side are you on and Joe Hill.
there will always be people whose minds are made up and whose political views are intransigient,but there will also be people who are more receptive to different ideas,and who are open to changing their views.
Folk music can and does include songs that are capable of political persuasion,it also includes FOLK SONGS that are very good stories,Tam Lin,is one such example,a song that does transcend ,political and religious and ideological points of view.
so both Frank and Jim are correct,even if they disagree with each other.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 04:57 PM

Many of our traditional songs rose out of political situations.
In Ireland there are thousands of songs which were made as a direct result of the the Irish struggles for independence from Britain - 1798, 1876, 1916 to 1922.
The emigrations following the Famine produced, and are still producing the second largest section of the Irish repertoire (the first being love songs).
The jewel in the crown of the British repertoire (IMO), the transportation songs came into being from a situation caused by the siezure of common land by the English aristocracy.
The Jacobite wars produced its own Scots repertoire.
The Chartist movement led to pages of songs being published weekly in political journals of the time.
The Industrial Revolution gave rise to many songs about conditions in the mills and mines, at sea, in the armed forces.....
Political events throughout the 20th century produced songs on nuclear disarmament, South African aparthied, Viet Nam, Cuba, Chile, the miners, Turkey, Chile, Thatcher....
I haven't started on the hom-grown US repertoire, - the War of Independence, The Civil War, the dust bowls, the unionisation of the mining industry...... let's face it - folk song has always covered politics to one degree or another.
The very fact that our folk songs are the direct creation of working people - a class that, up to fairly recently, has been said to have no creative culture of its own, is a political statement in its own right.
Having said that, there is another side to the argument.
We (2 Brits) were visiting this part of the west of Ireland throughout the latest 'troubles'. At the time that Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers were dying we arrived to black flags draping the streets of Miltown Malbay. Everywhere we went we heard support for the strikers and contempt for the Thatcher Government for allowing such an atrocity to take place.
We never once met with hostility and were welcomed as friends.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 07:14 PM

I should have added that one of the first assembled collections of songs was 'The Political Songs of England' (from the reign of John to that of Edward II) by Thomas Wright, half of which were in Latin.
As I said, political songs have been with us for a long time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 11:08 AM

During World War II many young officers were killed or wounded, creating leadership vacancies instantly. As a result, numerous enlisted men in battlefield conditions thus found themselves the recipients of "battlefield commissions," instantly transforming "one of us" into "one of them." If ever there was an illustration of the fact that there is really no "them" and no "us," that was it. Whether in war, sports or politics,only those who understand "we" will ultimately prevail.

By the way, that distinction is also at the root of most musical "artistic differences" that doom so many talented groups to failure and breakup.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 11:57 AM

"If ever there was an illustration of the fact that there is really no "them" and no "us," that was it."
Funny you should say that. At this present moment we are in the midst of an economic crisis caused largely by avaricious bankers and property speculators, ably assisted by (at best) incompetent and (more likely) corrupt politicians. The 'them' who got the world into this mess with their greed and incompetence are being rewarded with large bonuses and golden handshakes, while the 'us' who, by and large have had little to do with the mess we are in are being punished with redundancy, cuts in wages, privileges and benefits and a massive downgrading of our stadard of living and our security - now tell me how this no 'them and us' works again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Goose Gander
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:29 PM

In that case, Jim, the Us and Them is fairly easy to distinguish (though plenty of 'us' weren't complaining during the boom years).

But it's not always so simple. One example: this laudatory review of Something's Rising - dealing with mountaintop removal in Appalachia, featuring Jean Richie among others - that was printed in the very conservative Washington Times . . . .

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:52 PM

Folk Music was made popular in the 1950s and early 1960s not by the Left, but by Folk Music Entertainers like The Kingston Trio, The Highwaymen, New Christy Minstrels, Brother Four, etc. These people were musicians and entertainers, not driven by politics. Their music was widely accepted and not challenged by the masses who enjoyed folk music for what it was: Good music that entertained. That is why they had hit records. A lot of that has been lost. Political folk music is devisive, folk music that entertains is still loved by many. The elitist, political folk singer is scorned because many are incapable of acknowledging that first, and an audience second.

Believe me when I tell you that is the truth that most certainly always has and always will annoy the political, trying to save the world folk singer vs the folk singer who sings what is entertaining and offensive to no one. It's why groups like The Kingston Trio, even in their 21st century incarnation, still fill concert halls.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: PoppaGator
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 12:52 PM

Those of us who find value in music and in singing together do have something very important in common, despite whatever other differences we might have. Even the most belligerent know-nothing xenophobes and racists see themseves and their friends as downtrodden common working-folks ~ they simply misidentify their enemies when they buy into the ridiculous idea that their problems should be blamed on some other downtrodden group, usually folks even less privileged then themselves. ("We're broke because the poor people got all the money.")

If there is an actual "Them," it's the coldhearted servants of Mammon who don't care who and how many they trample upon to enrich themselves.

I don't think there are very many mergers-and-acquisitions specialists, investment bankers, Ponzi schemers, etc., who enjoy community singalongs.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 01:10 PM

folk entertainer,you have missed out the Weavers and PeteSeeger and Bob Dylan and Woody Guthrie,as I said before,folkmusic includes both songs that are intended to persuade politically,and songs that are just veey good stories and even: love songs.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 02:11 PM

"(though plenty of 'us' weren't complaining during the boom years)."
Don't know how you fared during the 'boom' years Michael. I worked (as an electrician) and earned a modest living.
All that has changed is that, because of the state of the economy, brought about, as I said, by greedy financiers and incompetent and corrupt politicians, my standard of living is quite likely to plummet. Recently my local hospital closed its A&E department, so I now have to survive a 60 mile ambulance ride if I (or any belonging to me) have an accident, any small savings I have is under constant threat because of the possibility of the bank going under, my pension for a lifetimes worth is diminishing in value daily....... 'Us' bear the brunt of a recession and gain little from a boom. On the other hand, life appears to go on as usual for 'them' (who got us where we are at present).
I live in the west of Ireland, where it is virtually imossible to find a family that hasn't been affected down the years by emigration. Now, it appears, the youth of this country (at least, the children of 'us') will be taking to the boats again in order to earn a living.
Folk entertainer:
The music industry capitalised on folk music, which had been put on the map by pioneers like Guthrie, The Weavers, Alan Lomax, Ewan MacColl, Bert Lloyd..... left wingers all.
The industry exploited it when it was profitable and discarded it when it ceased to be so. You are, of course right, they were not driven by politics, but by profit, and the music was no more than a commodity to be sold on the market.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 02:27 PM

how right you are, Jim.
I was in Bantry,yesterday.
there was a Queue outside the dole office of forty people.
I dont have a pension.
I am lucky I am still playing now and again.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: stallion
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 02:44 PM

guest TJ, about battlefield promotions and rank, WWII pilots from the "right background" were pilot officers the "wrong sort" were seargent pilots. Anyway, this has been discussed in a way before, it's about empathy, can anyone sing a song about a life of begging when they have never been a beggar themselves, so if, by and large, republicans are richer maybe they don't feel inclined to associate with the views expressed in a lot of the songs in the folk genre, like exploitation, anti war, anti establishment, poaching, tresspassing and romanticising the fellons.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 02:45 PM

Captain Birdseye, The Weavers were popular, but as a general rule were dead as far as folk music entertainers go by the time Tom Dooley and the big folk boom hit. I left them out because it was ultimately their politics and their involvement in politics led to their popular demise. Pete Seeger was popular to many for his folk music, but again was extremely political on stage. There are those who like to hear Pete's music, but not his preachy rants. Bob Dylan came after the folk artists I mentioned, but many of his songs became hits by others, and his audience still wants his "hits" in concert. Woody Guthrie I could never really consider a folk music entertainer in the same sense. Agenda trumps entertainment. Not always disagreeing with that approach. But the fact is, folk music as entertainment has always been more popular than political folk music.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 03:10 PM

Folk Entertainer - you seem to be confusing the terms 'popular' and 'good' - the two are not the same.
The stars of the folk boom were performing an erzatz, watered down version of folk music, and were dressed up in monkey suits and Aran sweaters by the industry in order to do so. What they gave the audiences had little to do with real folk music. I treasure a comment by Tommy Makem's mother Sarah - one of the finest traditional singers Ireland ever produced, who, when asked about her son's popularity said, "Our Tommy can't sing".
Dylan is a wonderful example of somebody who milked folk music, then moved off to fresh fields and pastures more profitable when the cow ran dry.
Those you named distinguished themselves not only as great singers and musicians, but also people who stood up to be counted; they rose far above the description 'entertainer'. Didn't Senator Mac. put Pete Seeger in the slammer for his courage in saying no to the witch-trials?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 03:28 PM

Jim Carroll, there are many, many who would care to differ with your opinion and believe that folk music does not have to just be performed by the toothless or poor to be considered "real" folk music. There are many, many fans of the popular folk music by the entertainers I mentioned and scoff at the elistist and snobbish definition of what kind of folk music they listen to for musical enjoyment only. They do not want agendas. They want music. Basically, they want you to shut up and sing.   Tommy Makem was a superb folk music entertainer who played to huge audiences. People liked his music and could care less about his politics. Believe it.

This is an age old arguement. It is also as devisive as politics itself. There is nothing wrong with folk music with superb instruments, smooth harmonys, nice clothes, and actually for entertainment. Perhaps some folk musicians should concern themselves more for what an audience actually wants to hear. Too many think it is just about themselves.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Goose Gander
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 03:59 PM

Jim -

My comment about 'us' and the 'boom' years was parenthetical to my point about the inadequacy of left/right, liberal/conservative divisions. As an illustration, I posted a conservative writer's positive review of an excellent book 'of the people' that many observers might pigeon-hole as a 'left-wing' analysis. I thought my meaning should have been fairly obvious, but perhaps not.

During the 'boom' years, I worked as a school teacher, warehouse worker, and 'temporary office worker', and I currently work in a bookstore. So I obviously am a fat-cat priest of Mammon, worthy only of immolation by an angry mob.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE FOLK SONG ARMY (Tom Lehrer)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 04:07 PM

THE FOLK SONG ARMY
(Tom Lehrer)

We are the Folk Song Army,
Ev'ryone of us cares.
We all hate poverty, war, and injustice,
Unlike the rest of you squares.

There are innocuous folk songs,
But we regard them with scorn.
The folks who sing 'em have no social conscience
Why, they don't even care if Jimmy Crack Corn.

If you feel dissatisfaction,
Strum your frustrations away,
Some people may prefer action,
But give me a folk song any old day.

The tune don't have to be clever,
And it don't matter if you put a coupla extra syllables into a line.
It sounds more ethnic if it ain't good English,
And it don't ever gotta rhyme---excuse me---rhyne.

Remember the war against Franco?
That's the kind where each of us belongs.
Though he may have won all the battles,
We had all the good songs.

So join in the Folk Song Army,
Guitars are the weapons we bring
To the fight against poverty, war, and injustice.
Ready! Aim! Sing!

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: John P
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 04:22 PM

Do folk singers who write songs about politics do so because they are trying to persuade, or because they write about whatever they are thinking about?

Subject: Lyr Add: THE ONE ON THE RIGHT IS ON THE LEFT
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 04:41 PM

Johnny Cash knew what he was talking about when he sang this ringingly true parody written by Cowboy Jack Clement. Remember, there are plenty of people like me who love folk music, but we prefer to have a full set of teeth in our mouth, work in a decent paying job, drive a car, actually respect authority, and heaven forbid, might just vote for a Republican if he is the right candidate and makes more sense.

"THE ONE ON THE RIGHT IS ON THE LEFT"

There once was a musical troupe
A pickin' singin' folk group
They sang the mountain ballads
And the folk songs of our land

They were long on musical ability
Folks thought they would go far
But political incompatibility led to their downfall

Well, the one on the right was on the left
And the one in the middle was on the right
And the one on the left was in the middle
And the guy in the rear was a Methodist

This musical aggregation toured the entire nation
Singing the traditional ballads
And the folk songs of our land
They performed with great virtuosity
And soon they were the rage
But political animosity prevailed upon the stage

Well, the one on the right was on the left
And the one in the middle was on the right
And the one on the left was in the middle
And the guy in the rear burned his driver's license

Well the curtain had ascended
A hush fell on the crowd
As thousands there were gathered to hear The folk songs of our land
But they took their politics seriously
And that night at the concert hall
As the audience watched deliriously
They had a free-for-all

Well, the one on the right was on the bottom
And the one in the middle was on the top
And the one on the left got a broken arm
And the guy in the rear, said, "Oh dear"

Now this should be a lesson if you plan to start a folk group
Don't go mixin' politics with the folk songs of our land
Just work on harmony and diction
Play your banjo well
And if you have political convictions keep them to yourself

Now, the one on the left works in a bank
And the one in the middle drives a truck
The one on the right's an all-night deejay
And the guy in the rear got drafted

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 05 Aug 09 - 10:36 PM

Guess I made my point. Everyone quit and went home. Oh well......

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 04:16 AM

"the toothless or poor to be considered "real" folk music."
I always find people who decide what and why others (of whom they know absoltely nothing) like and dislike have usually run out of honest arguments and thrash around for stereotypes and infantile slogans - who said that folk music has to "be performed by the toothless or poor to be considered "real" folk music." I certainly didn't, nor do I believe it to be so. I do find your summing up of the people whose generosity gave us many of our traditional songs both taseless and offensive, but that seems to go with the territory nowadays. I don't know how old Tommy Makem was, nor do I know if he still had all his teeth, but he had reached an age to fit neatly into your somewhat unwholesome description. Whether he was "superb folk music entertainer" is purely a matter of opinion - I'm one of those odd people who choose my music by what I hear rather than by the fact that they 'play to huge audiences' otherwise I would spend my time listening to Amy Winehouse and Madonna.
It really isn't up to you or anybody else to decide whether or not I listen to or sing political songs - on the contrary, anybody who tells me I can't is little more than one of those 'folk police' I keep hearing about.
Ewan MacColl sang his political songs to capacity audiences right up to his death. I understand Christie Moore and Dick Gaughan have been known to sing one or two political songs in their time - but then again, mabe they choose to sing what they consider worth singing rather than the ones that bring in the big bucks- it's know as 'artistic integrity'
Describing political songs as 'preachy' is rather like my describing all 'snigger snogwriters' as navel gazing introspectives - while some of them are, I'm sure that others are not.
"Everyone quit and went home."
Surprisingly enough, not all of us sit crouched over our computers waiting for the next pearl of wisdom to drop. I (unwisely no doubt) left mine alone and unattended and went out to enjoy a wonderful night of song and music in my local pub, hence the delay in responding.
Michael:
Sorry if I misunderstood your point. As far as I'm concerned the divisions in our society have little to do with schoolteachers who are forced to work in their holidays to make up their rather crappy remuneration, and why I should consider one such as a "fat-cat priest of Mammon" is utterly beyond me.
As I said, my particular 'them and us' are 'they' who have milked our society dry and 'us' who are expected to pick up the tab.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 06:32 AM

well said Jim,I switched off my computer and spent the evening making music.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasi
From: GUEST,The Folk entertainer
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 08:27 AM

Well I guess the truth is too much for some to hear. Your head in the sand is a normal reaction when all you can say is you are offended.

Try listening to an old Kingston Trio record and smiling for a change. Folk music can actually make you happy.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 09:07 AM

"Well I guess the truth is too much for some to hear. Your head in the sand is a normal reaction when all you can say is you are offended."
Is that all I said ? I seem to have taken an awful long time to say it.
"Try listening to an old Kingston Trio record and smiling for a change. Folk music can actually make you happy."
There you go again telling us what we should and shouldn't be listening to, and what makes and doesn't make us happy - now you really are beginning to sound like a George Orwell character.
I once listened to everything The Kingston Trio ever recorded - then, like Topsy, I just growed.
Now go and direct some traffic constable!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 09:48 AM

"Well I guess the truth is too much for some to hear. "

I, for one, am at a loss to understand what "truth" you are referring to. Nothing you have said has any ring of truth for me - it's just a load of opinionated twaddle. I firmly believe that social and political issues always have been, and always will be, an intrinsic part of folk music. If you choose to ignore that well-established and vital part of the genre, fine, but there are those of us who never will. Try taking off your rose-tinted spectacles once in a while.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasi
From: GUEST,The Folk Entertainer
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 09:57 AM

I'm not telling you what to listen to. As a performer, I listen to what my audience wants to hear and respect them. Politics in folk music has always been about ego. I would merely suggest folk music performers consider that people actually like to be entertained and not preached to.

Now get off your high horse and quit trying to save the world.
Sing a song that people actually know for a change. Maybe more will listen.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 10:19 AM

There's dissension among the Us's. Could it be possible that a Them has snuck in? :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Elmore
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 10:40 AM

I'll always be thankful to the Kingston Trio for leading me to real folk music, be it political or traditional.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 11:16 AM

"I listen to what my audience wants to hear and respect them"
Why not please yourself and sing what turns you on - or stop singing and put in a juke box. The singer should decide what to sing; not the audience.
"Politics in folk music has always been about ego."
No, performance has always been about ego - politics is about comittment.
"Sing a song that people actually know for a change. "
Do you know what I sing - or listen to - if so, how?
This is all becoming very childish.
"I'll always be thankful to the Kingston Trio"
I got a great deal of pleasure out of The Kingston Trio at one time - then I discovered that there was much more.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 11:41 AM

"Now get off your high horse and quit trying to save the world.
Sing a song that people actually know for a change. Maybe more will listen. "

There speaks the true voice of ignorance and indifference.

BTW, I can't recall a single song that The Kingston Trio sang... they never grabbed my attention.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Taconicus
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 11:59 AM

Jerry, you've said beautifully and eloquently what I've felt (and tried to say, usually unsuccessfully) for a long time. Much of what passes for folk music is (has been since the 1960s at least) actually of the "protest song" genre. These songs generally have one characteristic in common: they cast scorn, derision, mockery, anger and hatred against another person or group of people whose beliefs or politics the singer does not like. In short, they are mean-spirited. Whether you like a particular protest song will depend on whether you agree with the message or whether you feel yourself in the group that the singer obviously despises.

The songs are great for "we're all in this together" gatherings of like-minded people to raise their passions, but in a general audience, especially in today's America which is so terribly polarized, you are going to alienate about half the audience. Notice I said "in a general audience" -- obviously an audience that came knowing what kind of music they were going to hear will be more uniform in their beliefs and therefore you'll alienate fewer people.

I have become sick of mean-spirited speech and songs and therefore I, like many people, no longer listen to or sing protest songs outside of political gatherings. In today's America, for someone on the wrong side of the singer's politics, a songfest can seem like a hate-fest. Jerry, you said beautifully and eloquently what I've felt (and tried to say, usually unsuccessfully) for a long time. Much of what passes for folk music is (has been since the 1960s at least) actually of the "protest song" genre. These songs generally have one characteristic in common: they cast scorn, derision, mockery, anger and hatred against another person or group of people whose beliefs or politics the singer does not like. In short, their mean-spirited. Whether you like a particular protest song will depend on whether you agree with the message or whether you feel yourself in the group that the singer obviously despises.

The songs are great for "we're all in this together" gatherings of like-minded people, but in a general audience, especially in today's America which is so terribly polarized, you are going to alienate about half the audience. Notice I said "general audience" -- obviously an audience that came knowing what kind of music they were going to hear will be more uniform in their beliefs and therefore you'll alienate fewer people.

In today's America, a songfest can easily seem like a hate-fest to someone on the wrong side of the singer's politics. I myself have become sick of mean-spirited speech and songs and therefore I, like many people, no longer listen to or sing protest songs, or any song that mocks politicians or other groups of people, outside of political gatherings.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Taconicus
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:07 PM

EBarnacle, you've touched on a contentious (and you're right, a completely different) topic. Depending on one's political affiliation, one can believe (as you do) that saying "Democrat Party" is "something introduced by the Republicans several years ago to lessen the verbal relationship between Democrats and democracy," or that this is something introduced by Democrats to more closely associate their party with democracy.

In truth, it's simpler than that: Republicans don't believe that the "Democratic Party" is democratic, and therefore refuse to give tacit agreement to the descriptive adjective "democratic" when referring to that party. Saying "Democrat Party" is at least more polite than saying "the so-called Democratic Party."

I say "Democrat Party" because it's more honest linguistically. There are (at least) two types of adjectives: descriptive adjectives (hot, blue, beautiful, effective, etc.) and noun-adjectives (for example cat in "cat house," post in "post office," book in "book club," etc.) The difference is, noun-adjectives can always be used individually as nouns. Descriptive adjectives cannot.

Some words are both descriptive adjectives and noun-adjectives, or more precisely, they are descriptive adjectives that are spelled the same (i.e., homographs) as related nouns. In each case, you can use the word as a purely descriptive adjective, and can also use the word separately as a noun. These words include, for example, liberal, conservative, republican, and communist. Since each can be used separately as a noun (he is a liberal, he is a communist, he is a conservative, he is a Republican, etc.) they can be used as noun-adjectives to describe parties: Liberal Party, Conservative Party, Republican Party, Communist Party, etc.

But Democrat is a noun, and you cannot use it grammatically as a purely descriptive adjective. You cannot say (correctly) "...democrat form of government." The related descriptive adjective is "democratic" ("...democratic form of government"). Likewise, the descriptive adjective "democratic" cannot be used as a noun. You cannot (correctly) say "he is a Democratic." The noun form is Democrat. Therefore, using correct English the name of the party should be Democrat Party.

That said, of course people can name their political party whatever they like, I suppose. You could start a political party and call it the "Righteous Party" or the "Godly Party." But then you'd have to admit that you're using the word descriptively as part of the title, and you'll be opening yourself up to witty epigrams by opponents, who might say, for example, "the Democratic Party isn't democratic."

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Taconicus
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:13 PM

Addendum: Descriptive adjectives can sometimes be used as nouns, but only in a certain way. For example in the phrases "only the good die young"; "none but the brave"; "the wise know better"; "the depression is always hardest on the poor"; etc.

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: Amos
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:26 PM

The Folk Entertainer, while I have no problem singing songs people actually know, and enjoy, and so on, I wonder why you feel you need to make the point with such arrogance and acidity?

The Kingston Trio were highly polished, commercialized renders of folk-song, and perfectly enjoyable as what they were--commercialized--but that does not mean they were authentic, genuine, or even representative of the roots from which they drew their material.

There is a LONG discussion to be had about the relative virtues of the two sides, the Huddy Ledbetter vs. PP&M divide. But I don't see any basis in the discussion for the kind of antagonism you seem to bring to the thread.


A

Subject: RE: Us and Them: folk music and political persuasion
From: theleveller
Date: 06 Aug 09 - 12:26 PM

There seems to be a dichotomy here between the USA and Britain. In Britain there is a long, honourable, effective and ongoing tradition of left-wing protest, which is also an active part of folk music. Far from being mean-spirited, it is concerned with exposing and getting rid of oppression, greed, self-interest and indifference. The music is vibrant, enjoyable and often amusing. Many of the performers are in the mainstream of British folk music and their popularity is shown by their sell-out concerts and presence on the bill of just about every folk festival in the country.