England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 11:42 AM

Why is it good that you are trying to sound fake? At least when the Beatles put on accents they did so for fun.
You don't like the world being multicultural, you like the world being a lot of different MONOcultures. France only does French things, Germany only German, quaint African and Indian natives only doing native things.
There are Pakistanis who are more English tna you ever will be, as they have lived in England for 40 years, wheareas you have only been there for a decade. Only following your logic.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:01 PM

Go and see Bellowhead WAV - you won't regret it.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:14 PM

The rest of what you said is false and defamatory, again - you are confusing the questioning of immigration with racism; and I must therefore repeat that I do love the world being multicultural

House!

No, wait, he didn't say "nationalism with eco-travel and fair trade". My mistake.

Seriously, David, if somebody disagrees with what you've said, making EXACTLY THE SAME POINT in EXACTLY THE SAME WORDS is not likely to persuade them to come round to your point of view. Besides, it gets very boring when someone keeps making EXACTLY THE SAME POINT in EXACTLY THE SAME WORDS. Not only that, it gets very boring when someone keeps making EXACTLY THE SAME POINT in EXACTLY THE SAME WORDS. And if you don't agree with me, let me just point out that it gets very boring when someone keeps making EXACTLY THE SAME POINT in EXACTLY THE SAME WORDS.

(That's three. You're up to five "love the world being multicultural"s on this thread alone.)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:31 PM

"I dont think its a case of being better at an accent, or indeed being better at performing your national culture. Maybe you are being over-competitive in this area, part of the Australian in you, perhaps?" (Joseph)...who?...I just said: "as suggested, I accept that some are better at accents than I, but it's good that, as a repatriate rather than a visitor, I've made an effort". And, as said here, while some Scots and Irish are, of course, performing the music of other nations, the percentages are nowhere near that of English folkies - whether or not you think that's a bad thing.
Stigweard - what I've heard from Bellowhead on radio is too heavy for me: I prefer the accompaniment of English folk songs to be light or non-existent; thus, I have, rather, enjoyed some of the "Songs" and "Tunes" of Spiers and Boden - despite having had cyber-arguments with one of them, also, on some of the above matters.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 12:35 PM

one problem is that so many English folkies now prefer to perform other nations songs and tunes, at such events.

If it is the preference of English folkies to do so, then just how exactly is it a problem?

but to be precise, I think I now have the mixed accent of an English repat

You can think it all you like but you sound as Australian as your speech idioms. And the corks dangling around your hat are a bit of a giveaway too...

ever been to the Peoples' Theatre in Newcastle?

Let me see - a concert of Indian Classical Music in 1979, also saw Schoenberg's Pierriot Lunaire round about the same time, which was amazing - Gemini was the ensemble though I forget the name of the soprano. Saw Anthony Braxton there once, and best of all - Don Cherry's Nu around 1988.

The rest of what you said is false and defamatory, again

Answer me this - in what way is saying England was a more English place 50 years ago coupled with such choice phrases as English culture is taking a hammering and I love the WORLD being multicultural not racist?

you are confusing the questioning of immigration with racism

Not at all. You are questioning immigration because you are a racist. If you weren't a racist, you'd be happily getting on with your life and enjoying culture as and where and in whatever form you found it instead of perpetuating your absurdly idiosyncratic and extremely xenophobic myths about Our Own Good Culture.

and I must therefore repeat that I do love the world being multicultural

You usually capitalise WORLD, WAV, to emphasise the implication that you hate other cultures and ethnicities living in England. Why? Because English culture is taking a hammering and when people lose their culture, society suffers. As many times as I ask you account for this, but you never have. Examples!!! Facts!!! Figures!!! How is it taking a hammering? How is society suffering?

Further, your constant insistence that I am Australian rather than English borders on the very thing you accuse me of...

Bollocks, WAV - you were raised in Australia from the age of three for fuck's sake. You grew up in Australia - a land of colonial culture and immigration; there you were naturalised, there you were educated, and there you became a man. That's where you became what you are - you can't undo that, much less be in any way convincing by pretending to be English.

as well as being born here, I have lived here a total of 15 years now.

So by that logic you believe you are as English as an average 18-year-old I suppose? 15 adult years doesn't mean too much in terms of personal growth and development, especially to someone so resolutely stuck in the past as you are - no longer writing, no longer learning new songs, still pushing the same old shit your wrote years ago. You're hardly Mr Growth and Flexibility are you, WAV?

as a repatriate rather than a visitor, I've made an effort.

Sometimes people lose their natural accents as a matter of course; other times they might become stronger when they move away. I knew a Geordie who lived 20 years in the Philippines and came back sounding stronger than ever he did, despite being fluent in Tagalog for the sake of his kids.

Also, it's a fact that I started life with a northern English accent, having learnt to walk and talk in Manchester

What is this Northern English Accent you speak of? You think they talk the same in Manchester as they do in Newcastle? What about Preston and Liverpool? Or Sunderland and Hartlepool? Or Chorley and Burnley? Seghill and Delaval? Blyth and Bebside? Shiremoor and Backworth? I think they walk different in Manchester too, but that's another issue, perhaps...

Why try to be what you're so obviously not? Why can't you embrace the idea that being English does not preclude you having an Australian accent or yet being a naturalised Australian? At times it seems you're so xenophobic you even hate yourself, which really isn't a good thing.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:20 PM

"I have, rather, enjoyed some of the "Songs" and "Tunes" of Spiers and Boden - despite having had cyber-arguments with one of them, also, on some of the above matters."

There's a shocker. Bet I can guess which one. And, seeing the intelligent and erudite way in which he has responded to bullshit criticism in the past from people a lot cleverer than you, I bet he whupped yo ass.

(That was me being American, by the way.)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:34 PM

Most of that's another R-word, ridiculous, IB...so, going with the flow, I'll just address this bit "And the corks dangling around your hat are a bit of a giveaway too..." crikey/blimey mate/pal...I've only got one thing a-dangling off my hat - a strap, attached by a chap on that West-End Newcastle road where they have all the motorbike shops, designed with stong westerly winds in mind.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:35 PM

I think they walk different in Manchester too, but that's another issue, perhaps...

But not as different as they do t'other side of the Irwell. Some men doing the Salford Shuffle...:

Who's Gonna Step On Who Again?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:39 PM

Seeing that WAV has argued his case with the finest English trad musicians ever but still insist that he's correct about the whole top-line thing, it's possible he's right and we're all wrong?*

Right, I'm off to play my Irish bouzouki.


*I specifically mean about the music - I'm avoid the rest of the debate in this case.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:48 PM

And, as said here (the obligatory link to the life's work), while some Scots and Irish are, of course, performing the music of other nations, the percentages are nowhere near that of English folkies - whether or not you think that's a bad thing.


At randomn, I picked Planxty, an Irish group. Let's analyze their track list.

The Black Album.
1)"Raggle Taggle Gypsy/Tabhair Dom Do Lámh" (traditional)
The tune is Irish, but the song is Scottish.
2)"Arthur McBride" (traditional)
Printed in an English broadside, IIRC, with probable Scottish antecedents.
3)"Planxty Irwin" (Turlough O'Carolan)
Irish, but with old Italian pop influences.
4)"Sweet Thames Flow Softly" (Ewan MacColl)
A modern song by a Scott from England.
5)"Junior Crehan's Favourite/Corney is Coming" (traditional reels)
6)"The West Coast of Clare" (Andy Irvine)
A modern song written by a man born in England to irish and Scottish parents.
7)"The Jolly Beggar" (traditional reel)
A Scottish song.
8)"Only Our Rivers" (Mickey McConnell)
Modern Irish song.
9)"Sí Bheag, Sí Mhór" (Turlough O'Carolan)
See #3.
10)"Follow Me Up to Carlow" (traditional)
Irish, but written in the early 1900s.
11)"Merrily Kissed the Quaker" (traditional slide)
Is it Irish?
12)"The Blacksmith" (traditional)
English!!!!!

The Well in the Valley
1)"Cúnla"
Irish.
2)"Pat Reilly"
A northern Irish song.
3)"The Kid on the Mountain"/"An Phis Fhliuch" (slip jigs)
Irish.
4)"As I Roved Out"
Irish.
5)"The Dogs Among the Bushes"/"Jenny's Wedding" (reels)
Irish.
6)"The Well Below the Valley"
An old Child ballad from England based on a very popular European storyline.
7)"Hewlett"
Irish.
8)"Bean Pháidin"
Irish.
9)"The Fisherman's Lilt"/"Cronin's Hornpipe" (hornpipes)
Irish.
10)"As I Roved Out"
An English song, but also found in Northern Ireland.
11)"Humours of Baliloughlin"
Irish.
12)"Time Will Cure Me"
Written by Andy Irvine.

Cold Blow and the Haily Night
1)"Johnny Cope"
A Scottish song.
2)"Dennis Murphy's Polka"/"The 42 Pound Cheque"/"John Ryan's Polka" (polkas)
Irish, but modern, IIRC.
3)"Cold Blow And The Rainy Night"
English, from the West Country.
4)"'P' Stands For Paddy, I Suppose"
Found all over Britain and Ireland.
5)"The Old Torn Petticoat"/"The Dublin Reel"/"The Wind That Shakes The Barley" (reels)
6)"Baneasa's Green Glade"
Written by Andy Irvine about his Balkan experiences.
7)"Mominsko Horo"
Folk dance from the Balkans.
8)"The Lakes Of Pontchartrain"
An American song learned by an Irish capitalistic immigrant in 1905. Christy Moore learned it from the Mike Waterson.
9)"The Hare In The Corn"/"The Frost Is All Over"/"The Gander In The Pratie Hole" (jigs)
10)"The Green Fields of Canada"
Irish.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:01 PM

I would go so far as to suggest that someone like Luke Daniels, an English musician whose work is largely rooted in Irish music, might have a much higher profile and get more bookings if he played English music and was part of the young English folk scene.

He does some great outreach work, too:

Gael Music

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:21 PM

I agree with most of what you say, IB, but you did miss something.

"American's can't do English either; just listen to Dick Van Dyke, or more recently the actors who play the members of Seattle's English community on Frasier."

Just because Dick Van Dyke can't do an English accent for sour owl jowls doesn't mean that lots of other Americans can't. And as far as Frasier is concerned, if you are under the impression that Daphne had a phony English accent, then let me point out that the role of Daphne was played by Jane Leeves who is English. She came from Essex, to be exact.

Daphne was supposed to have been from Manchester. On an episode or two, Daphne's mother did appear. She was played by British actress Millicent Martin, who was from Manchester. There were occasional appearances by Daphne's bar fly father, played by Brian Cox, a British actor born in Scotland, and her three brothers, played by Anthony LaPaglia from Australia, Richard E. Grant from Swaziland, and Robbie Coltrane from Scotland. Not an American actor in the whole family.

There may have been a few American actors in the "English pub in the U. S." episode, the place where Daphne liked to hang out in her off hours (the one in which Frasier butted in and was doing his damnedest to fit in and "act English," much to Daphne's irritation, and generally made an ass of himself), but as I recall, other than Jane Leeves and Kelsey Grammer, the rest consisted of bit-parts. And that was only one episode out of a program that ran for some eleven seasons.

By the way, I have seen English actors on dramas that the American Public Broadcasting System gets from the BBC and other British sources for such series' as Masterpiece Theatre playing Americans, but who can't do an American accent worth a damn (and again I say, there are many different American accents). Some do it quite well. But unfortunately, many of them think that all they need to do is talk through their noses and say "Aw reckon" a lot.

The ability to do accents other than one's own convincingly is an individual talent. Some people have it, some don't.

You are right about David though. He sounds like an Aussie.

No, David, I'm not saying that there were (are) possums in Pasadena (Hmm! There's a possible song there! "Possums in Pasadena"). Nor was I aware of any gum trees in my neighborhood, but that was many decades ago. I left the area before I was ten years old.

But David, you certainly do have an amazing knack for dodging the main issue raised by someone's post and fixating on the inconsequential. A rather transparent tactic of evasion.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:35 PM

...when I do answer the repeats, Don, I do repeatedly get accused of repetition.
Also, while Stigweard is off playing his Greek bouzouki, may I ask, other than Michael Tyack, who is playing the wire-strung, 5 times 2 course, elusive English cittern?...

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:56 PM

My name is Dave & you may think me depraved
but I'm a Mancunian Geordie from Aus
Lived here 15 years
Didn't notice the English drink beer
but I'll tell you how to live now because

You're all suitably cowed when I read my mighty poems out loud
& when I tell of my impressive credentials
My life's work is done
Shakespeare 0 Dave 1
(though it's possible I've gone a bit mental)

Forget Beatles, forget Rock, forget Punk, forget Trance
forget any music that made your heart dance
forget that Folk's about people having a good time
we'll do it my way now, right down the line

No skill, no talent, no creative new ground
Just the same song in the same way every time it comes round
Yes it may become boring
Yes I'm anal & sad
But at least my singing can't become any more bad

So pack up those guitars, those fiddles, that box
popular music's now out of order
you can all sit around
and bathe in the sound
of my grade 1 skill on recorder

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 03:13 PM

David, do you evade the point deliberately, or do you just don't get it?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 03:21 PM

Richard E. Grant in Frasier? Must have missed that one!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 03:53 PM

I assume that Stigweard is playing the Irish bouzouki, which bears little resemblence to the Greek one and which is pretty much the same as the cittern you loove so well?

IB, I think you must have ment the Americans who tried to put on English airs, like the other radio guy.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 04:31 PM

Why are we still having our strings pulled by some fake Englishman who's ashamed of his own birthright?
The man's an attention-seeking dullard with absolutely nothing intelligent or original to add to the sum of human knowledge - just let the thread die, for Pete's sake.
If this poodle-faker were mildly autistic I'd be sympathetic, but I fear he's just very arrogant; an arrogance matched only by his ignorance.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 04:56 PM

I'm trying to imagine a 5 x 2 course instrument. It's a five course instrument. with 2 strings per course. Or if you like a 2 x 5 course instrument which sounds like a ceiling joist

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:01 PM

[Sigh...] Just call me Radish Melba.

when I do answer the repeats, Don, I do repeatedly get accused of repetition.

This is either dishonest or stupid. You've been accused of repetition because, when you're challenged to justify or explain a statement you've made, you reply by repeating the same statement. It's a bit like this (entirely imaginary) dialogue between Mr A and Mr B:

A: "I say, B, your views are jolly well racist, that's what they are."
B: "That's false and defamatory, I love the world being multicultural."
A: "So what? Whether you love the world being multicultural has nothing to do with whether you've got racist views."
B: "But my views aren't racist - I'm just questioning immigration."
A: "The point is, you're questioning immigration on racist grounds."
B: "That's false and defamatory. I'm no racist - after all, I love the world being multicultural."

(At this point Mr A had the good sense to give up.)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:06 PM

Some claim Gervase.

I doubt anybody could summon enough arrogance to match WAV's ignorance. After all he was born in Manchester so he thinks he should put on a fake geordie accent because he's "a northerner!" That's ignorance of olympian proportions. Like me saying "I was born in London so I'll put on a French accent because they're both in Europe". Well Calais is a closer to London than Manchester is to Newcastle! What a tosser.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:34 PM

When I sing a Scottish song with a Scottish accent or an Irish song with an Irish accent (I find that for most English songs, I don't need to adopt any accent at all, I just sing them), I know I am not Scottish or Irish, and I'm not trying to convince anyone that I am. And my audiences know that and accept it.

No one is deluded by this bit of theatricality. It's quite a normal practice among singers and actors the world over—except, of course, for people who get all tied up in acid indigestion inducing knots over matters of ethnic or cultural "purity" (which, itself, is a fiction).

But what can one say about someone who grew up in Australia who is trying to convince himself that he is English—not just English, but English as of fifty years ago—yet still talks like an Aussie (absolutely nothing wrong with that) because he can't quite wrap his mouth around an English accent?

If one should sing songs of one's own culture—and only one's own culture—there are lots of really great Australian songs you might investigate, David.

I can post a list for you. I sing some of them myself. But, of course, there are others here who could post a far more comprehensive list than I could.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:38 PM

...if I was as arrogant and ignorant as you Laissez Fairies just claimed, surely I'd be talking in a broad Australian accent, akin to Les Patterson, and trying to Australianise not just England but the whole, pardon my French, bloody island, promoting a British didg., etc.

"FOLK MUSIC: Music deriving from, and expressive of, a particular national, ethnic or regional culture."! (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia)...and, yes, I've checked others that say similar. Who's deluding themself?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:50 PM

If you WEREN'T both arrogant and ignorant as so many people here have said, you wouldn't be telling other people how they should live and what music they should play.

Who's deluding himself? You, Waveydavey. You, you, you.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:54 PM

Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Folk music: type of traditional and generally rural music that originally was passed down through families and other small social groups. Typically, folk music, like folk literature, lives in oral tradition; it is learned through hearing rather than reading. It is functional in the sense that it is associated with other activities, and it is primarily rural in origin. The usefulness of the concept varies from culture to culture, but it is most convenient as a designation of a type of music of Europe and the Americas.

"The term folk music and its equivalents in other languages denote many different kinds of music; the meaning of the term varies according to the part of the world, social class, and period of history. In determining whether a song or piece of music is folk music, most performers, participants, and enthusiasts would probably agree on certain criteria derived from patterns of transmission, social function, origins, and performance.

"The central traditions of folk music are transmitted orally or aurally, that is, they are learned through hearing rather than the reading of words or music, ordinarily in informal, small social networks of relatives or friends rather than in institutions such as school or church. In the 20th century, transmission through recordings and mass media began to replace much of the face-to-face learning. In comparison with art music, which brings aesthetic enjoyment, and popular music, which (often along with social dancing) functions as entertainment, folk music is more often associated with other activities, such as calendric or life-cycle rituals, work, games, enculturation, and folk religion; folk music is also more likely to be participatory than presentational."

There's a lot more, but there's nothing (as far as I can see) about deriving from or expressing a particular national, ethnic or regional culture. Who's deluded? Anyone who thinks they can rely on a one-volume paperback 'encyclopedia' published in 1997, I'd suggest.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:02 PM

WaV - A couple of serious questions:

On what grounds are you actually questioning immigration?
Do you consider 'English culture' to be superior to any other?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:44 PM

I'd be talking in a broad Australian accent, akin to Les Patterson, and trying to Australianise not just England but the whole, pardon my French, bloody island, promoting a British didg.,

That's more like the old Walkaboutsverse! Fighting talk! In fact, it moves me to reveal a little about our friend's early days in England. The first time I met WAV, he rolled into a singaround at The Cumberland Arms in Byker waving a machete round his head crying 'YOU WANT A KNIFE? THIS IS AN EFFING KNIFE, YOU POM FAIRIES!' then proceeded to lob it at the darkboard scoring bullseye from twenty paces. Impressed? You bet, even if he did proceed to accompany every song on his didgeridoo and no, not one of us dared say anything, largely on account of aforementioned machete. Thereafter I would see him around, wrestling crocodiles on the streets of Newcastle, trading platypus pelts in the Grainger Market, or whoring around Sandgate and the Bigg Market, brawling and boozing his way into the lasting affections of Canny Newcastle. I have fond memories of The Walkaboutsverse Bush Tucker Mess Tent - a sort of free-form al-fresco tabernacle he'd pitch up on Northumberland Street to give McDonald's a run for its money. It gave me a taste for the Wattle Seed, Quandon, Lemon Myrtle, Kurrajong Flour, Macadamia Nuts, Warrigal Greens and Illawarra Plums that still form an essential part of my cooking today, not to mention the Kangaroo steaks, Kangaroo Tail Soup, Wallaby Stew, Emu eggs, Emu, Witchetty Grubs, Bugs and Yabbies. I tell you - WAV brought that real Outback Vibe to Tyneside; and he had it, he had us, right there in the palm of his hand. But he blew it, by getting into folk music and thus did this once proud and heroic repatriate lose his naturalised Australian culture and humanity and, as we all know, when a man loses his culture, society suffers. It breaks my heart to see him like this, a once proud Bush Man, who could recite Henry Lawson with the best of them, and here he is growing ever softer on pottages, stottie, chips and mead.

By the way, WAV - I've still got that picture you gave me all those years ago; I might look at it from time to time to remind myself of the sort of man you used to be. I hope you don't mind me sharing it with my fellow Mudcatters so they might get a flavour of just what has been lost here. WAV as he was in his pre-folk glory.

They thought of the far-away grave on the plain,
They thought of the comrade who came not again,
They lifted their glasses, and sadly they said:
`We drink to the name of the mate who is dead.'
And the sunlight streamed in, and a light like a star
Seemed to glow in the depth of the glass on the bar.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:13 PM

Candid shot in his local, enjoying a flagon of mead. . . .

Clicky

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:03 PM

To answer your cittern question WAV
I have been playing a hand made Stefan Sobell Cittern since the day I brought it in 1972.
Yes, made in Northumberland, but it's provenance is NOT ENGLISH!!
Have you ever seen one, they're jolly nice. and they play Swedish tunes really well.
In fact mine rarely plays anything else. Mind you, lots of Swedish tunes came from England, and lots of English tunes came from Sweden.
And English tunes also come from France, Belgium, Spain, Italy, and lots of other places...In Fact...Oh My, I've just realised I play tunes from all over the world.
I will immediately drop into Basil Fawlty mode, smack my own bottom shouting "Who's a Naughty Boy Then"
Now do the rest of us a favour, and slink off back under the stone from whence you came.
You are now officially a dullard (Go on. Look it up)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,julia
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:10 PM

Regarding the word "fiddle", my understanding is that the word is derived from the Gaelic word for violin, being "fidhle". This would mean that the word is not "English" at all.

And the harmonica is a "fringe" harp, not "French", so named for the fringe-like arrangement of the metal reeds.

I would vote for the English concertina

best- Julia

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:13 PM

No, English 'fiddle' isn't derived from Gaelic, though both languages (and most other European languages, come to that) have similar words meaning much the same thing. 'Violin' (a late coinage) is one of them.

Ultimately, though, the etymologies of words relating to musical instruments, and the origins (real, putative or imagined) of those instruments are completely irrelevant when it comes to the business of 'national' instruments which, like other 'national' emblems, are merely symbolic. Countries like Scotland, Wales, Finland and so on had a big stake in the Romantic Nationalist movements of the 18th and 19th centuries, and felt a great need for such symbols to assert their individualities in the face of the growing power and influence of larger neighbours.

Demonstrating at great length that such-and-such an instrument isn't originally English is pointless, as virtually none of the 'national' instruments originated in the countries that adopted them as emblems, though some were refined there into the forms we know today. The only European 'national instrument' I can think of that is actually played by a significant proportion of the population of the country concerned is the Finnish Kantele, which is taught in schools. Doubtless there are others, but the point is that it really doesn't matter.

The whole concept of 'national identity' is largely an artificial construct; a useful tool through which powerful people manipulate the masses. Ultimately all such things are an extension of basic tribal instinct, which seems to be built into humanity (and probably all social species) at a genetic level; and which is in itself neither good nor bad, though it can be the agent of both.

As has already been remarked, it's often the case that what we might call 'culturally displaced' people seek to compensate for their lack of tangible roots by imagining an historic identity as a model to aspire to. Hence all those 'New Age Celts' with their fantasies of woad, shamanistic ritual and ancient pre-Christian bodhrans; and the 'Merrie England' folk, too; all madrigals, codpieces and recorders (I'm baffled by the pottage, though). You'd think that anybody who actually knew anything about folk music would have seen through all that long ago, but unfortunately the fantasists have always had a strong influence; and for as long as people think they can become well-informed by reading a couple of out-of-date books and a few wikipedia articles, we will continue to suffer all manner of nonsense.

A national instrument for England? Too late for that by a couple of centuries, I think; but since such things are symbolic, they need only to evoke a suitably 'national' image for a large enough number of people. That being the case, bells or brass would serve well enough; and it wouldn't matter if they were invented on Mars.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 03:00 AM

WAV - ...if I was as arrogant and ignorant as you Laissez Fairies just claimed, surely I'd be talking in a broad Australian accent, akin to Les Patterson, and trying to Australianise not just England but the whole, pardon my French, bloody island, promoting a British didg., etc.

Ooooh! Get her! Somebody's touched a nerve. I can see the steam coming out his ears from here.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 03:30 AM

For WAV: Malcolm Douglas is regarded as one of the genuine (in all senses) experts on matters folk and one or two other things.

You could learn a lot from his knowledgeable and well researched posts. I'm not an expert. You're not an expert (!) - Malcolm is.

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 04:30 AM

No, English 'fiddle' isn't derived from Gaelic, though both languages (and most other European languages, come to that) have similar words meaning much the same thing. 'Violin' (a late coinage) is one of them.

I'm doing the decent thing here. As my informants tell me that WAV put away four bottles of Mead last night and effectively OD'd on stottie, chips and tomato sauce (not a pretty sight as you might imagine, he just can't hold it the way he used to*) I'm going to save him the bother.

PLAYING THE FIDDLE?
There are many different fiddles from many different lands – for example, the Chinese erhu fiddle, the Norwegian hardanger fiddle and, the one most in the West now play, the Italian fiddle/violin. (from Here)

________________________

* Mead is one of the causes of WAV's downfall. All great men have a weakness. Viewers of the celebrated Scottish sit-com Still Game will be familiar with Big Innes and his fondness for Midori**, so it is with WAV and Lindisfarne Mead. It is because of the mead he got into folk in the first place, and it was all downhill from there.

** The entire episode can be seen in three parts Here.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 04:40 AM

Smokey - WaV - A couple of serious questions:

On what grounds are you actually questioning immigration?
Do you consider 'English culture' to be superior to any other?

I'd save your breath if I were you. The average spotty BNP supporting school reject could come up with a better reasoned, more thought out justification for their views than WAV has ever managed, despite his much vaunted "degree" and "technical certificates".

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 04:45 AM

chips and tomato sauce

Foreign muck!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 05:36 AM

"folk music is more often associated with other activities, such as calendric or life-cycle rituals, work, games, enculturation, and folk religion" (EB from Pip, above)..DOES fit with..."FOLK MUSIC: Music deriving from, and expressive of, a particular national, ethnic or regional culture." (Philip's Essential Encyclopedia from me, above).

"WaV - A couple of serious questions:

On what grounds are you actually questioning immigration?
Do you consider 'English culture' to be superior to any other?" (Smokey)...I've answered these several times but can't blame anyone for not reading everything on such never-dead threads:
I don't think economic/capitalist immigration/emigration (which makes up the majority of mass immigration) is a good thing; and I do think trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems - the most extreme of which is a current court case regarding terrorism and doctors. And NO - I hate the imperialistic idea of white supremacy, and genuinely love the world being multicultural...it's those such as Ruth Archer/Joan Crumb who have tried to paint me this way as they hate immigration being questioned.
IB - "or whoring around Sandgate and the Bigg Market"...I've only been there for "Newcastle Poetry Society" nights and keep tyring, rather, for a permanent partner, who need not be a clog dancer! Speaking of which, I really do think you and yours should try and manage a trip to Aus. and get it all out of your system - and don't forget to take in some Aboriginal culture as well...

Poem 123 of 230: FONDLY AND VIVIDLY/AN OLYMPICS-SPARKED MEMORY SONG - AUT. 2000

From way up high in Sydney Tower,
You can see it all:
East there's coastline, west there's ranges -
Blue Mountains standing tall;
There's national parks and gardens,
Sailboards on Botany Bay;
And, out among the people,
You'll soon get that term "G'day."

Yes, I remember Sydney -
Fondly and vividly:
The eucalypts and wattles;
The sun, the sand, the sea.
Yeah, I still picture Sydney -
Fondly and vividly.

And, way up high in Sydney Tower,
You can see it all:
Southern Beaches, Northern Beaches,
A skyline standing tall;
There's the Opera House and Harbour Bridge -
Ferries sail from bay to bay;
And, around Darling Harbour,
You can party the night away.
Yes...

And, way up high in Sydney Tower,
You can see it all:
Olympic grounds toward the west,
The Rocks, too, is worth a call;
Plus Aboriginal culture -
The foremost of a lot to say.
So, if you visit Sydney,
I'm sure you'll enjoy your stay.

Yes...

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

And speaking of Aus., I see Ralphie/Nellie/Chief Laissez Fairy has made yet another comeback to call me a "dullard".

"The only European 'national instrument' I can think of that is actually played by a significant proportion of the population of the country concerned is the Finnish Kantele." (Malcolm)...which I think is a positive thing other nations can learn from.

Neither steam nor smoke, Woody - I just enjoyed a bowl of boiled oatmeal.

Yes, Stu, MD does seem knowledgable to me, too, for what it's worth.

IB - I intend to have A quiet glass of the good stuff at tonight's singaround.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM

Foreign muck!

Even Newcastle-upon-Tyne's celebrated Stotty Cake is an import from South America. It goes back to the Indian Summer of 1902 when the circus of the celebrated Irish showman O'Carrageen fetched up on Newcastle's Town Moor. One of O'Carageen's performers was a native South American who went by the name of Apu the Aztec, who dazzled on an array of flutes, panpipes and suchlike exotica. The story goes that he fell in love with a local lass in nearby Gosforth and the two were soon married, thus did he introduce, amongst other things, the recipe for his native Metztli into the locality and it soon caught on. Traditionally the bread was only baked at the time of the full moon (Metztli being the Aztec word for the moon, the bread being round, white and baked in such a way that gave a pattern of lights and darks resembling nothing so much as the lunar surface). No such nonsense with the Geordies however, who took the recipe to their hearts and it soon spread around the provinces of Tyneside, the name changing as it went. These names are still found today, such as flatty and yestie (or yeastie), all of which, I am told, derive from the original. Indeed, in Gosforth they are known to this day as Measties or Mezzies. Stotty is but one of these derivations, the name favoured by Greggs of Gosforth, who still hold the original secret recipe of Apu the Aztec from more than a century ago. Locals might still remember the centenary celebrations of 2002 when at the time of the Hunter's Moon the loaves were baked in traditional clay ovens specially constructed on the Town Moor with music provided by the descendants of Apu the Aztec, who might still be seen performing their native chants and dirges on the streets of Newcastle to this day, as proud of their Aztec roots as the good people of Tyneside are proud of them.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 05:53 AM

And speaking of Aus., I see Ralphie/Nellie/Chief Laissez Fairy has made yet another comeback to call me a "dullard".

I'm afraid you are, old fruit.

Your 'poetry' is execrable tripe that would make William Topaz McGonagall blush to his roots, your political ideas are juvenile and your views on folk music (albeit coloured by your political views) are risible. I've not heard you sing but, judging by your form, I imagine you to be a poor shadow of Florence Foster Jenkins.

I have idea what a technical certificate might be when it's at home - I imagine it to be like a GNVQ - but I would advise you to try a little higher education. The Open University is a wonderful British institution, and you may well benefit from one of the foundation courses on the humanities.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 06:00 AM

IB - I intend to have A quiet glass of the good stuff at tonight's singaround.

A hair of the dog, eh? But we all know where these things lead, WAV. God alone knows your writings are not those of a sober, or indeed sane, man - i.e.

I don't think economic/capitalist immigration/emigration (which makes up the majority of mass immigration) is a good thing; and I do think trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems - the most extreme of which is a current court case regarding terrorism and doctors. And NO - I hate the imperialistic idea of white supremacy, and genuinely love the world being multicultural...it's those such as Ruth Archer/Joan Crumb who have tried to paint me this way as they hate immigration being questioned.

It reads like the ravings of a mad horse - an endless string of thinly veiled racist euphemisms that doesn't fool anyone, at least no one here. We all know what you are, and now we all know why too; you are bitter because you have lost your once proud Native Australian Culture to a blurred mead-soaked illusion of English Folk. Sober up, WAV - before it's too late!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 06:09 AM

I stand corrected. I've just listened to the embedded tracks at http://www.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse .
I don't think I've heard 'When I survey the Wondrous Cross' quite so mangled. A monotonous and flat rendition brightened only the the Stylophone accompaniment. To misquote the great Rolf Harris, "Can you hear what it is yet?".
Then there's what sounds like a pisspoor pastiche of Henry Lawson (complete with whistling and humming!). Then some poetry, which I quickly passed over.
I did catch a snatch of 'Cob-a-Coaling', which sounds bizarre when sung in an Aussie accent trying sound like a Yorkshireman! Priceless - the best track of the lot for laughs.
I'm afraid I didn't listen to all of it, however, as I was losing the will to live...
Suffice to say, I don't think Eliza C (or her mum) has anything to worry about.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 06:28 AM

The Britannica definition clearly doesn't say that folk music is music "deriving from, and expressive of, a particular national, ethnic or regional culture". It does include some things that are compatible with that definition - but if you don't already believe in that definition, the Britannica will never lead you to it. It's a bit like arguing that the definition of 'quadrilateral' is 'square', and then claiming to be vindicated when someone quote a better definition. "See? Straight sides, and four of them - squares have those!"

And one of the points of my 'repetition' comment was that we know you "genuinely love the world being multicultural". How could we not? The reason we think you're a racist is that you quite clearly dislike England being multicultural:

trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems

Since cultures don't float around on their own but are carried and lived and reproduced by actual people, this leads us to suppose that you dislike the presence of people with (what you see as) non-English cultures in England. Which leads us to call your views racist.

(WAV bingo, part 94: "FROM NOW ON" (e.g. 28th Sept, 6th Oct).)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 06:35 AM

"Foreign muck!

Even Newcastle-upon-Tyne's celebrated Stotty Cake is an import from South America. It goes back to the Indian Summer of 1902 when the circus of the celebrated Irish showman O'Carrageen fetched up on Newcastle's Town Moor. One of O'Carageen's performers was a native South American who went by the name of Apu the Aztec, who dazzled on an array of flutes, panpipes and suchlike exotica. The story goes that he fell in love with a local lass in nearby Gosforth and the two were soon married, thus did he introduce, amongst other things, the recipe for his native Metztli into the locality and it soon caught on. Traditionally the bread was only baked at the time of the full moon (Metztli being the Aztec word for the moon, the bread being round, white and baked in such a way that gave a pattern of lights and darks resembling nothing so much as the lunar surface). No such nonsense with the Geordies however, who took the recipe to their hearts and it soon spread around the provinces of Tyneside, the name changing as it went. These names are still found today, such as flatty and yestie (or yeastie), all of which, I am told, derive from the original. Indeed, in Gosforth they are known to this day as Measties or Mezzies. Stotty is but one of these derivations, the name favoured by Greggs of Gosforth, who still hold the original secret recipe of Apu the Aztec from more than a century ago. Locals might still remember the centenary celebrations of 2002 when at the time of the Hunter's Moon the loaves were baked in traditional clay ovens specially constructed on the Town Moor with music provided by the descendants of Apu the Aztec, who might still be seen performing their native chants and dirges on the streets of Newcastle to this day, as proud of their Aztec roots as the good people of Tyneside are proud of them." (IB)...and I thought they were just plain old oven-bottem buns...either way, do like the gritty folky texture.

'And speaking of Aus., I see Ralphie/Nellie/Chief Laissez Fairy has made yet another comeback to call me a "dullard".'(me)...
"I'm afraid you are, old fruit.

Your 'poetry' is execrable tripe that would make William Topaz McGonagall blush to his roots, your political ideas are juvenile and your views on folk music (albeit coloured by your political views) are risible. I've not heard you sing but, judging by your form, I imagine you to be a poor shadow of Florence Foster Jenkins.

I have idea what a technical certificate might be when it's at home - I imagine it to be like a GNVQ - but I would advise you to try a little higher education. The Open University is a wonderful British institution, and you may well benefit from one of the foundation courses on the humanities." (Gervase)...I studied humanities, before repatriating, in Adelaide and Sydney, above link.; and with that behind me, IB, I yet again have to say that it's the questioning of immigration that you just re-posted.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 06:41 AM

It could be worse, Gervase : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eggE7K2j_uo

Or even http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-mKnY2HMXg - in which we hear it sung to the melody of The Water is Wide.

And here's one just for WAV:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFaWjnr9C7o

Your territory's calling!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 06:44 AM

"I do think trying to have a multiple number of cultures living under the one state law will always cause problems - the most extreme of which is a current court case regarding terrorism and doctors."

Of course, pointing out cases of terrorism as a reason why cultures should live seperately is in no way culturally or racially stereotyping great swathes of people; nor is it writing off all of the many cultures which have managed to peacefully co-exist in England for centuries (long before that big, scary non-white migration of the 50s which basically equates to WAV's Ground Zero...)



"Ruth Archer/Joan Crumb"

Honestly, Wavey - if wit were shit you'd be constipated.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 06:47 AM

"Also, while Stigweard is off playing his Greek bouzouki, may I ask, other than Michael Tyack, who is playing the wire-strung, 5 times 2 course, elusive English cittern?..."

It certainly isn't a greek bouzouki - that's a three-course round-backed instrument (although the mighty Alec Finn plays one to great effect in De Dannan).

It's an Irish Bouzouki, made in Norfolk by John Hullah, of the sort used for accompanying Irish, English, Breton, Scottish, Welsh and Asturian traditional music. It's up for sale if you want it as I've got one on order from Joe Foley in Dublin.

My friend Flanny plays a Sobell Cittern, not that elusive if you get out of the house and mix with traditional musicians, who tend to understand the subtleties of the culture they live in, especially when the influence excerpted by them and from their neighbours make the traditions so very interesting. There are exceptions of course, and some people who claim insight and understanding don't have a fecking clue what they're talking about.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 06:58 AM

other than Michael Tyack, who is playing the wire-strung, 5 times 2 course, elusive English cittern?

John McCusker plays one, but wait a minute, damn he's Scottish!

Simon Emmerson plays one and he's English! But wait, shock horror, he's in bands with Asians! and Africans! This will never do....

Oh yes, 800

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 08:50 AM

Wav, tell me what I should sing and play.
I was born in Israel, but my parents are from the USA. Dad's family is Jewish, from Bukovina and Galicia mostly, while mum's family are not Jewish and are of Anglo-Scottish extraction with several Scandinavians thrown in. Mum's grandmother was born in Mexico, Dad's grandparents in what is currently Ukraine.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 09:09 AM

David, I hope that by mentioning me in the same post as saying that English folkies by and large perform music from other cultures you weren't suggesting I do that thing, because I'll remind you that out of 19 albums to date only two of them have been material other than traditional English material, and those two were self-penned. The contents of the latest self-penned out of those two contains 50% trad material in melody even. I have always been and remain committed to the playing and promulgation of English traditions, songs and music, more than most, and certainly more than you.
And Eliza PC? Now you can fuck off.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 14 Oct 08 - 09:38 AM

"And, as said here, while some Scots and Irish are, of course, performing the music of other nations, the percentages are nowhere near that of English folkies"

Prove it. Do you want to supply refs to back up this statement? No tradition exists in isolation, and the traditions of these Islands exist in a state of close co-existence and long may it remain so.

i hate sprouts, so imagine my surprise when I tried one raw, and it worked.