England's National Musical-Instrument?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:01 AM

Sorry Ralphie - see below the line...

If wishes were horses

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:52 PM

"you are an Australian; most Australians (and English people) are ok with irony. Pip was being ironic. Are you sure you're not American? You're certainly not English." (Tim)...I'm an English repatriate, and please look up the uses of the ! which I used regarding Pip's remark.

Will Fly - you don't like my "direct" (blurb) metre and rhyme, and I don't like free verse "poetry".

"May my parents and I never hear your version of Cob-a-Coaling. We worked on that for ages, it is very much a family song now, and it stretches to breaking point our long-held belief that traditional music is for everyone to think that someone of your agenda could feel welcome taking it from us and singing it. Speaking as immigrants, as Travellers, as human beings, no. You do not have our blessing." (Eliza)...I'm not clear on the meaning of the first sentence (it's similar or different to your tune, or you refuse to give it a hearing?) but, as for the last, it's a traditional song that shall remain in my repertoire.

Got anything recorded for us to listen to YET Don?

And the imperialism of Kipling doesn't put you off, IB?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 03:57 PM

Sarah Palin.

"Caribou Barbie."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 04:18 PM

Have you tried busking, WaV? A talent like yours could go a long way. You could intersperse the music with political speeches to enrich the lives of your spellbound audience.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:02 PM

Oh Man Smokey.......What a suggestion!!! Why haven't we thought of it earlier?

Yeah Wavy.....Go out there and play that funky music Whiteboy! Then go on to inspire the world with juvenile tripe! Its your calling....Can't you hear it?

And btw Asshole, comments like that about Don Firth coming from the likes of yourself are criminal. Whatever you might say about Don is worthless drivel as we all know the truth. Get a life racist pig.

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:09 PM

Got anything recorded for us to listen to YET Don?
I'm sure Don is far too polite to say this, but he's got better things to do than to respond to the absurd and irritating requests of a quasi-musical gnat like yourself.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:14 PM

"What a suggestion!!! Why haven't we thought of it earlier?"

Seems obvious. doesn't it? A bit of direct market research.. I think I want to be there..

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM

Great idea, Smokey! David should try busking.

Burl Ives, in his early autobiography, Wayfaring Stranger (actually, he wasn't that old when he wrote it), describes how he was in New York, studying voice at a music conservatory with the idea of becoming an art singer. He was taking regular singing lessons and trying to wrap his tongue around German, so he could sing lieder.

But he was feeling kind of homesick, and he would often pull out his guitar and sing a few of the songs he had learned from his grandmother. Some of the music students he shared a house with tended to sneer at the songs, so one Sunday afternoon, he took his guitar and went to a nearby park so he could be alone. He sat on a park bench and sang to himself. A few kids dropped by to listen to him. They liked the songs, so he sang to them. Gradually the crowd got bigger and bigger and soon there were several dozen people, children and adults, standing there or sitting on the grass listening to him and applauding each song. He sang to them for a couple of hours.

That evening, he lay on his bed staring at the ceiling and mulled over what had happened that afternoon. "Why am I wearing myself out learning a lot of songs that are difficult to learn, difficult to sing, and are foreign to me when I already know a couple of hundred songs that I learned from my grandmother and from my friends and family?"

That was when Burl Ives decided to abandon the effort to become a lieder singer and devote himself to singing folk songs and ballads. Concerts, radio programs, club dates, and records followed quickly. And for several years—before Pete Seeger and The Weavers, and a bunch of other folk singers appeared on the national scene—if you mentioned folk music, most people thought of Burl Ives.

Burl Ives found his true career by chance. And by the response of the people who heard him in his impromptu afternoon park concert. He wasn't "busking," he just wanted to go and sing to the squirrels. But people heard him, stayed to listen, and liked what he did.

Things went sour for him later, but that's another story.

That's a good way to really learn if you have it or not. Sing for people who are perfectly free to walk away if they wish, and see what kind of response you get.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: mandotim
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:47 PM

Culturally, WAV, you are not English. You try to be; but as evidenced by the people on this board who actually are English, and from their standpoint don't seem to recognise your professed culture as one they share, then culturally speaking you must logically be something other than English.
Your formative years were spent absorbing Australian culture. Your attempts at verse, your accented singing and your lack of command of English idiom all show that your efforts to assimilate into English culture are failing miserably, and you remain definitively Australian.
If you really want to be English, why not spend some time finding out what English culture actually is, rather than banging on about what you (an Australian) think it ought to be? Most indigenous people don't like being told how they should practise their own culture by those perceived as 'foreign'. You profess to be against this kind of 'cultural imperialism' (your phrase), yet that is precisely what you are doing to the English people here; attempting to persuade English people to adopt a culture that is not and never has been their own. (Don't come back with that twaddle about being a repatriate, either; it's completely irrelevant to this point, as I'm not talking about nationality, I'm talking about the culture you absorbed and lived in for the important, formative years of your life.)
Please understand; I am not remotely bothered if you want to become English or not; but at least try to become a part of real English culture, rather than living in your fantasy world of an English culture that demonstrably never actually existed. Stop hectoring the kind and generous people on this board with your half-baked ideas about how their world should be, and try listening to the ideas and advice that are provided to you. Stop being rude to truly eminent people like Don Firth and Eliza Carthy (among others), who have tried to help you. If you do that, the many people who know them and love their work will automatically regard your ideas as being without merit.
There are even role models here; Ruth Archer is an American, who over the years has worked tirelessly to gain a deep and wide ranging understanding of English culture, and indeed helps to shape and strengthen that culture in many important ways. You could do much worse than following her example, rather than ignoring her advice. Stop spouting racist slogans whenever the subject of immigration comes up. Listen to and research the arguments and then decide, rather than adopting a position and then slagging off opponents as 'extreme pro-immigrationists'. They aren't anything of the sort, they are anti-racists.
I've said this to you before, and I don't suppose that you will listen this time either; grow up; listen; learn to argue, rather than pontificate; work hard to become good at something, preferably something you enjoy; get a job; get a life.
Tim

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:51 PM

And the imperialism of Kipling doesn't put you off, IB?

Not in the slightest. Kipling's essential humanism resonates out of and beyond his time, however so conservative, or otherwise reactionary it might be; thus, it excites in me a depth of appreciation for my Own Good Culture that otherwise I simply wouldn't have - and for that I am eternally grateful. Kipling also wrote Exceedingly Good Songs which are an absolute joy to sing, invariably to the superlative settings made by Peter Bellamy, but often I'll find a traditional tune that fits them like a glove, as in the case of Puck's Song, which I sing to the Morris tune London Pride (aka Idbury Hill). In both my work and recreation I am absorbed in the past (traditional songs & stories, Medieval art & music etc.); but in my life I am a happily modern man glad to be alive when & where I am with an awareness of history as a process of continuity. That continuity figures in much of Kipling's work, both in terms of the broader strokes of history and the role of the individuals taking part in it (see The Land) and the essential relationship between the two. Because of this, and his richly perceptive awareness of the social, political & cultural complexities of his own time, I think he still has a lot to tell us about ourselves and each other, whether we want to hear it or not.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 05:59 PM

See, WaV? I've learnt something from Don's post. I didn't know all that, and now I know a bit more. It's a useful transaction. Remember, if Don were doing this just to be 'superior', he'd be better off keeping his acquired knowledge to himself and remaining more knowledgable than 'the competition'. Read his stuff and be grateful WaV.

Thanks Don.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: peregrina
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 06:16 PM

England's national musical instrument is the amazing English language.

Try 'repatriating' all words of French, Latin and other origins and you won't have a title for the thread nor a full line of the verse.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 06:20 PM

Peregrina, if were left to him, folk clubs would consist of people banging rocks together and singing "Ug" - solo of course.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: peregrina
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 06:23 PM

Hmmm... I thought the idea was to replace folk clubs, mudcat and poetry with a large soapbox on the ground reserved for one speaker?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 06:28 PM

Yes, that would certainly solve all society's problems, but should there be a raffle? First prize, a night out with WaV - second prize, two nights out with WaV.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:03 PM

I mean the version you sing that you say you learned from us. You do not have our blessing, whether it remains in your repertoire or not. I was brought up to believe it was nice manners to ask someone if you happen upon them if it was alright to sing a song learned from their repertoire, especially if you then use it to promote yourself. That's a good old English custom you don't seem to be picking up, you've had access to me and therefore mine for well over a year now and you haven't mentioned it. That's just rude.
Tourist.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 07:26 PM

Will Fly - you don't like my "direct" (blurb) metre and rhyme, and I don't like free verse "poetry".

Who mentioned free verse, you idiot? Can't you see that your so-called poetry doesn't have (a) any metre and (b) any rhyme. It's not poetry, and you aren't a poet by any stretch of the imagination. You have no ear, no scansion, no rhythm, no imagery, no lyricism, no point. Even McGonigall - for all that he's laughed at - has more poetic guts in him than you have. Your "verse" is simply a waste of space.

Try reading real poetry. If your "verse", together with your illiterate responses on this and other threads, and the ill-conceived ideas you harbour, is evidence of a BA in Humanities, I'll believe it when I see the degree certificate. You can't write, you can't argue, you can't give sources or proper citations to back up your arguments, you can't see beyond the feeble, racist, bigoted, stupidities that pass for your world view.

Now tell me - am I the first here to mention all this?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 09:59 PM

WaV - serious question now, do you put your finger in your ear when you sing?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 08 Nov 08 - 11:59 PM

Oh . . . ear!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: mandotim
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:29 AM

I put my fingers in both ears when WAV sings...
Tim

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:00 AM

"Whiteboy...racist pig" (Catspaw)...I, rather, have never attacked anyone on the basis of skin-colour or race...I only question the act of immigration itself.

"Culturally, WAV, you are not English. You try to be...get a job" (Tim)...yes, as a repatriate rather than a visitor, I "try to be". And you know damn well that, these days, you couldn't get away with talking about an immigrant like that, but with a repat. from that rival country it's acceptable...just as, at interviews, it's okay to say "why ON EARTH did you come back?" or "you must be mad", etc.

For Will Fly...

Poem 148 of 230: AUDIENCE LOST

I returned, again,
    To what they pen -
The free-verse poets:
    Deep prose in sets...
I could read, again,
    Of Mice and Men.

From walkaboutsverse.741.com

"WaV - serious question now, do you put your finger in your ear when you sing?" (Smokey)...obviously, I soon noticed some on the folk scene doing that and gave it a try but, usually, no...curiousity killed the cat but is it documented anywhere that, over the centuries, some fishermen, farmers, miners, peasants, etc. did indeed do that...?

Back on thread, before I got the bus to the Alnwick Northumbrian Gathering from Newcastle yesterday, in the Windows music shop, I had my hands on a (Scallati?) 30-key English concertina and, although the reed system may not be not quite authentic (others may know more on this), what a fine instrument...?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:26 AM

WAV, you're a clot. Not a single rebuttal of my comments on your poetic drivel - just more drivel! Ah well, better people than me have tried in vain to penetrate the bonehead.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:27 AM

I had my hands on a (Scallati?) 30-key English concertina and, although the reed system may not be not quite authentic (others may know more on this), what a fine instrument...?

I assume it was a "Scarlatti" like this one and the fact that you think it's a fine instrument says a lot about you. Once more you pontificate about something you know nothing about and get it all wrong.

For reference, the Scarlatti is made in China and I think I can speak for most Concertina players when I say that it's considered to be not much better than a piece of crap.

As an Anglo player I think it would be better for me to let somebody like Dick Miles give you some examples of "fine instruments" of the EC persuasion, but then why should he bother as you're sure not to listen.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:43 AM

"Whiteboy...racist pig" (Catspaw)...I, rather, have never attacked anyone on the basis of skin-colour or race...I only question the act of immigration itself.

Again!

Wavy - apart from yourself, no one is under any illusions, here or anywhere else for that matter, on the issue of your racism. You are a proven racist whose misanthropic delusions have you living in a country of which you have no understanding. England is not what you think it is, nor will it ever be what you want it to be - and as long as you continue to think this way it will never be your home. You are a free-loading trivial tourist on one long easy idle holiday, barely scratching the surface of the cultural richness you claim to love and yet know so little - a cultural richness about which you so resolutely refuse to learn. Why? Because your personal bugbears and consequential political agendas far outweigh any cultural interests which are, in any case, only ever a means to your political end. In your world - and the world of all racists - ignorance is the wellspring of determination and delusion; it means you might live in a state of simplistic blinkered bliss gloating with self-righteous indignation upon the rest of the world of which you have no part.

We were in Manchester yesterday - enjoying the sounds the city featuring one of those ubiquitous Eastern European accordion & trumpet duos; a young Hungarian accordionist playing a csardas like he was possessed; an African kora player who's a regular around Picadilly these days and a European string quintet playing Pachelbel's famous Kanon und Gigue in D-Dur with studied precision. A cultural richness of the varied and diverse reality that is our England; a cultural richness which in your ignorant racist scheme is a complete anathema.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:54 AM

Er, Eliza, I've done a version of the Good Old Way which I learned directly from your folk's recording. Is it all right to keep on the internet? I don't use it to promote myself, but love the song.

WAV - Scallati doesn't sound very English, surely you're not going to buy a foreign import?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:16 AM

"We were in Manchester yesterday - enjoying the sounds the city featuring one of those ubiquitous Eastern European accordion & trumpet duos; a young Hungarian accordionist playing a csardas like he was possessed; an African kora player who's a regular around Picadilly these days and a European string quintet playing Pachelbel's famous Kanon und Gigue in D-Dur with studied precision."

I heard the Hungarian chap earlier on this week - he was brilliant. We were in a bit of a rush so didn't have time to stop and listen unfortunately. He was putting so much into his performance I thought he must be knackered after doing that all day.

The Kora player is superb and as you say IB he's often about although sadly not last Tuesday. In the summer you can get a number of good musicians in Piccadilly; last year there were some fantastic African drummers.

By the way, if you're ever in Manchester and fancy partaking of a pleasant benefit of living in a multicultural society, the best Chinese buffet is to be found at Tai Woo's on Oxford Road near The Palace rather than in Chinatown.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:18 AM

"Er, Eliza, I've done a version of the Good Old Way which I learned directly from your folk's recording. Is it all right to keep on the internet? I don't use it to promote myself, but love the song."

I think Eliza seems mostly concerned about her family's repertoire being used as a clothes prop for Wavey Davey's political agenda. But I'm glad I've never sung my dodgy version of Maid on the Shore in her hearing... :D

Mandotim, your words are very kind, but to be honest I don't feel like I've made any real effort - just followed an enthusiasm. I love living here. And for the record, The Jam, The Smiths, The Kinks, The Kooks and The Arctic Monkeys speak as much to me about Englishness as Sam Larner or Harry Cox. :)

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:18 AM

"I, rather, have never attacked anyone on the basis of skin-colour or race...I only question the act of immigration itself." But when you question immigration, you come up with the wrong answers.

As this is a music website, I'll address musical culture first. The greatest threat to England's musical traditions came not from immigrants but from American popular music culture, which was willingly embraced by the English early in the last century, under the influence of the gramophone and wireless. We may regret it, but the "folk" voted with their feet, and chose jazz and blues and rock-and-roll over their good English traditional music.

If you're talking about culture in its wider sense, I find it hard to believe that fewer than 8% of the population (which includes people from ethnic minorities who were born and raised here, and who are more English than you) could have had the influence on our culture you suggest - what influence they have had, most people regard as being largely positive. I accept however that it would be naive to ignore that it has brought some social problems.

If you mean economic migration, this can only mean you object to people coming here from abroad and taking jobs away from native English workers. Does that sound familiar? Except of course, you haven't got a job, and as someone else has pointed out you seem to have chosen to live in one the worst possible places in the entire country for finding one, especially in manufacturing.

WAV, all your talk of being a "repatriate" doesn't alter the fact that you are an immigrant:

"a person who has come to a different country in order to live there permanently" Cambridge Online Dictionary

"a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country" AskOxford dictionary

Incidentally, "repatriate" is usually either a verb or a passive noun, ie someone who is sent back to their own country. Did the Aussies get fed up with your witterings and kick you out?

WAV, have you heard the expression "when you're in a hole, stop digging"? Everything you write simply reveals more about the enormous depths of your ignorance, whether it's about politics, English music, English culture, singing, playing recorder, and now concertinas. If you don't know about something, you should be asking questions, not attempting to give answers.

But you've been told this before.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:55 AM

Don't tell him to stop digging. With any luck he'll carry and on, hey presto, he'll be back home in Australia!

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: mandotim
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 08:43 AM

From your post: '"Culturally, WAV, you are not English. You try to be...get a job" (Tim)...yes, as a repatriate rather than a visitor, I "try to be". And you know damn well that, these days, you couldn't get away with talking about an immigrant like that, but with a repat. from that rival country it's acceptable...just as, at interviews, it's okay to say "why ON EARTH did you come back?" or "you must be mad", etc.'

Any comments on the rest of my post WAV? After 'try to be', there is a 'but'. Incidentally, 'these days' I can 'get away' with saying anything I like about anyone as long as it breaks no laws. Recommending someone who is unemployed to get a job, as far as I know, is not illegal. If you find me saying that to you offensive, then the remedy is simple; get a job, you idle layabout.
I still maintain that English culture is something you are not familiar with WAV; an example; when questioning the practice of singing with a finger in one ear, you ask 'is it documented anywhere that, over the centuries, some fishermen, farmers, miners, peasants, etc. did indeed do that...?' Do accountants not sing folk music? What makes you think that doctors don't? How about architects? Priests? Office workers? Once again, your monumental ignorance is on show, coupled with your uninformed prejudice about folk music being either some bucolic idyll or an art form practised by horny-handed sons of toil. It might be where you come from WAV, but not in England.
Why not just accept it WAV; England is never going to be the place your delusions say it is. Either accept the fact, or bugger off to somewhere where racist, sexist wasters are accepted and welcomed.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:01 AM

Hey WAV!

It's going well, don't you think?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:15 AM

And Wavyracist......Just for your enlightenment since you obviously know fuck all about modern English OR world culture.........

"Play That Funky Music" (also known as "Play That Funky Music, White Boy") is a funk rock song written by Robert Parissi and recorded by the rock band Wild Cherry. The song hit number one on the Billboard Hot 100 on September 18, 1976. It was also the basis of a top five U.S.A. hit for Vanilla Ice in 1990. The song also was #10 in the UK and is now listed at #73 on Billboard's Greatest Songs of all time."
The song was inspired by a black audience member who shouted, "Play some funky music, white boy" while they were playing at the 2001 Club. Lead singer Robert Parissi decided they should, and wrote down the phrase on a bar order pad. They later recorded it in Cleveland with a Disco sound. Although the band was concerned about the lyrics, Parissi insisted on keeping them.

Now I dunno' about # 73 all time but the phrase has certainly become part of our almost shared language. Here's another phrase brought about by an overwhelming majority opinion of folks on this thread and your other crapass threads as well...........

David Franks is a racist and a bigot.

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:19 AM

And Catspaw is a bully.
I'm a bitch.
It all works out.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:24 AM

This is true too............

Spaw

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Stu
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 09:53 AM

Hmm.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:22 PM

Re: Finger in Ear.

". . . is it documented anywhere that, over the centuries, some fishermen, farmers, miners, peasants, etc. did indeed do that...?"

For your information, David, if you observed someone singing with his "finger in his ear," then I think you misinterpreted what you saw. No wonder it didn't help. Many singers find that if they cup a hand behind an ear, it helps them hear the sound of their own voice. Especially in a large room or auditorium, cupping a hand behind your ear helps you hear the reverberation of your own voice.

I don't usually do it myself because my hands are occupied with my guitar. I have done it sometimes when I'm singing unaccompanied, and it does give some good "feedback." It could possibly help you stay on pitch.

Remember:   don't put a finger in you ear. Cup a hand behind an ear. By the way, use your dominant ear. The one you automatically use when talking on the telephone.

AND REMEMBER THIS! It has absolutely nothing to do with culture or tradition. Whether or not it is done by fishermen, farmers, miners, peasants, etc., is not relevant.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:45 PM

I mean't the English concertina generally rather than that particular make, Woody, and did question the reed system of that particular brand, whilst admitting that others would know more on this than I, remember? We are on a thread/DISCUSSION forum, afterall; thanks for the spelling, and I'll keep in mind that you think that Scarlatti is "crap".

IB - again, false and inconsistent with your analysis: e.g., you have so many problems with my questioning of immigration itself, but no problem with Spaw using the term "whiteboy"...a bit like accepting your friends who make racist jokes at the pub, I suppose...do you ever think of going back to try again at uni. or other adult education?

HJ - as with Ruth, what you said about industry/location is wrong - my wad of rejection/keep you on file letters is thick HJ; and I find it incredible that you can't even accept that I, BORN HERE, am a repat. NOT an immigrant...and, then, "Don't tell him to stop digging. With any luck he'll carry and on, hey presto, he'll be back home in Australia!" ! (Gervase - who also seems to have no problem with Catspaw's "whiteboy").

Tim - for hundreds of years, it was largely the folk I described above and not your "accountants" carrying on the oral tradition but, yes, I'm not sure about any finger-in-the-ear tradition, and left that, also, open for discussion (okay?)...

Catspaw - given the repeated false and defamatory remarks you've made of me, do you also stand by your use of the term "whiteboy", which still no-one else has questioned you on?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: jimslass
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 02:49 PM

Dear Eliza, if indeed 'tis you, don't get riled, sit back, put your feet up and think of your blood-pressure!! A calm pregnancy means a calm baby. Chill.Breathe.(and when all else fails, demand pethedine!)

As an exiled Lancashire lass I've many a time been to the foot of our stairs, but never, in the spirit of gobsmackedness, to Buxton. In actualitee, I have, and you're right, it's a grand place.

Oh, by the way, did we ever find out what is the national instrument of England???

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:07 PM

Oh WAV. Some were worried that you had dropped off the bottom of the page but it was not to be.

Have you learned anything from the wisdom offered you?

Have you understood the posts from anyone?

Do you realize that all the posters above disagree with your views, doubt your abilities and reject your conclusions.

You are consistently illogical and show a lack of education that is unbelievable.

Regards

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:14 PM

". . . but no problem with Spaw using the term 'whiteboy'...a bit like accepting your friends who make racist jokes at the pub, I suppose..."

Trying to divert flak from your own racist outpourings by jumping on the "whiteboy" comment, are you, David? No joy there, I'm afraid. I believe Spaw was quoting from someone else, and in all the time I've been here on Mudcat (since 1999), I've never read anything posted by Spaw that indicates that he is, in any way, racist. Nor have I ever seen a racist post from Mr. Beard.

So your attempt at a diversionary tactic is a total bust.

David, stop trying to derive guidance in life by rereading your own "life's work." You're in a philosophical "feedback loop." Put that aside and start from the beginning. Re-examine your beliefs and philosophy from the very basics. You've taken a wrong turn somewhere and your positions are untenable.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 03:46 PM

I'm trying to show, Don, the inconsistency of the group, including yourself, of pro-immigrationists here who are repeatedly making false remarks about me and my life's work. It IS very rare that anyone else gets questioned on what they post - although Ruth did recently when someone suggested Americans lacking an understanding of irony. And please scroll above and re-examine Spaw's use of the term "whiteboy" - honestly/calmly/without bias, please.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:24 PM

I did before I post just above.

You're wrong. On all counts.

As far as Ruth being questioned about suggesting that Americans lack an understanding of irony, first, I don't think Ruth was being serious and any responses were in a humorous vein. There was nothing "racist" about that exchange. It is you who lack an understanding of irony. Or, like many who hold the kind of views you do, of humor in general.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM

I'm starting to wonder if WAV actually cares about culture at all. He certainly wasn't old enough to take any English culture with him when he left the country; he spent almost all his childhood and a good slice of his adult life in Australia. Genetically he may be a repatriate, but culturally he's quite obviously an immigrant. So maybe it's not culture that determines where people ought to live, in WAV's world, but where your genes come from.

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: mandotim
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:37 PM

'Tim - for hundreds of years, it was largely the folk I described above and not your "accountants" carrying on the oral tradition'.
How do you know this for certain? You weren't there hundreds of years ago, so you must think you have learned this from some source or other. Now is your opportunity to demonstrate that you are able to substantiate your bletherings. Authoritative sources please, Harvard referencing system preferred, no need for ISBN numbers. (This means you have to go to a good library and do some actual work, for once).

On the subject of false and defamatory; you consistently attack people who disagree with your racist remarks as 'pro-immigrationists'. I am neither for nor against immigration per se. Therefore your description, if it applies to me, is defamatory, if I choose to take it as such. The difference is, calling you a racist and a sexist is neither false nor defamatory, since your oft-repeated outpourings confirm this as fact when any reasonable and academically acceptable definition of terms is applied. You are a racist, a sexist and a cultural bigot. Deal with it, whiteboy (in the Wild Cherry sense of the word).

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:45 PM

By the way, David, where, exactly, did Ruth say anything about Americans lacking a sense of irony? I can't find it anywhere, in this thread or the other one currently going.

There was a humorous exchange between Little Hawk, Smokey, and me, but that was obviously a matter of kidding each other.

As I say, perhaps you are the one who lacks a sense of irony and are not able to recognize humor.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 04:46 PM

can we keep the English Concertina out of this.
I have spoken to my tinas,and they do not wish to be associated with David Franks,they are quite delighted that I play chords,single line harmonies,melody played off the beat[and occassionally shock horror syncopation],melody and accompaniment[they sometimes like to pretend they are duet concertinas,its a bit like concertinas cross dressing]and they have even recorded Dill Pickle rag,Washington Post and other non English material such as Blues.
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:29 PM

WaV, can you please identify these 'pro-immigrationists' of whom you speak?

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 05:40 PM

David, you characterize me, and everyone else who takes issue with your ideas as "pro-immigrationists." I am neither pro nor anti immigration. Immigration is a fact of life in this world. There is nothing, really, that you or me or anybody else, including the United Nations, can do to stop it, short of a state of global tyranny.

Besides, trying to defend an untenable position by slapping labels on those who disagree with you is often a mark of a bigot. "All you (whatever label you chose). . . ." thereby trying to lump everyone who disagrees with them, no matter how diverse, into one single pigeon-hole.

I suppose, if I were asked to take a stand, I would indeed be "pro-immigration." I see the movement of peoples of different cultures from one place to another as having great potential for cross-cultural enrichment, which is all to the good. Cultures are not static and never have been. They are fluid and ever-changing. You cannot freeze a culture at some point or you will kill it. Also, I would never want to limit the freedom of people of good will to live anywhere in the world that they chose.

And an additional point: I have never yet met a bigot who didn't vociferously deny that he or she was a bigot and were highly offended by the charge. Then, they would proceed to say something beginning with the word "But—" and then prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were, indeed, a bigot.

As you keep doing, over and over again!

Take a good look in a mirror.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: s&r
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 06:06 PM

But have you learned anything from the wisdom offered you?

Stu

Subject: RE: England's National Musical-Instrument?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Nov 08 - 07:44 PM

To Concur with Uncle Dick Miles.
WAV!
Leave the Concertina alone...What did it ever do to you? God forbid that you ever saved up enough dole money to buy one.
But Dick....Cross Dressing concertinas? Sounds like fun.
Which one gets the Tu-Tu?
I've played with all three (possibly 4 or 5) systems at once, as I know you have.
Have never knowingly just played the "One line melody" How boring would that be, all of the time?
Still feel English though....Must be going mad.
Reading this thread makes me think that I am!