BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:31 AM

It's just semantics, Ellenpoly. You could as well call the Father the Mother if you so desired, and in India they do indeed speak of the Divine Mother. So the trinity can express as Mother, Daughter and Holy Spirit if one chooses to use those words. In a matriarchy, that's the way it would be seen.

By the way, I think the "virginity" of Mary, mother of Jesus, that is spoken of in the New Testament can be interpreted in this fashion: it refers to a spiritual condition, not a physical one. It's a metaphor for spiritual purity. The common people, again, took it literally as meaning physical virginity (which doesn't matter here nor there...it's the inner spiritual condition of a human that matters, not the physical aspects).

Mary was not the first "virgin" in ancient religious tales to give birth to a son. It was already a rather popular notion, and it is a metaphor for something spiritual.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:36 AM

Okey dokey, LH..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:44 AM

The NACAR bible may be more contemporary for some. The driver, the car and the holy pit may be easier to visualize for the masses.

Meanwhile lilhawk does a diservice to pure spirituality beyond the dogma of organizations as percieved by us non bean counting athiests.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM

PP:

Thanks for the clarification.

Some folks would assert that the spiritual side is what gave rise to the material side. P'raps it is just a self-reinforcing series rather than a dualism. I kind of like that idea. The problem with it that I see is that the capabilities and dimensions of the one side seem clearly bounded, and on the other clearly unbounded. Go figger. Maybe the universe really IS smoke and mirrors?


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:55 AM

G'wan, Donuel! All atheists count beans. :-) (It's a metaphor for "money".)

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:20 PM

All of you Christians seem to have many different angles and spins on it all. It's just so less complicated with just God, no sons, no Holy Ghosts, no holy spirits, no one isolated case of a woman getting pregnant 2000 years ago by something other than copulation.

No scandelous boys club ministeries either.

Judiasm is probably not perfect, but it just seems like there aren't as many mysteries, either.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:35 PM

Well, there's something to be said for simplicity all right.

I think, Martin, that Mary's virginity was a metaphor for spiritual purity, not physical virginity. That's my opinion.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:47 PM

You get complexity as a by-product whenever you insert data based only oin authority rather than on natural law. Note "natural" does not mean only "physical" in this context. But if you inherit a lexicon of asserted truisms that are in the first instanc eborne out of some authoritarian decree, you can spend a whole lifetime trying to untangle the complexity this introduces into your understanding. This is very ineffective knowledge. There are lots of ways to know, but depending on authoritarian legacy is one of the least effective.

"As simple as possible, but no simpler...." as the good doctor put it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Metchosin
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:00 PM

Aren't as many mysteries? All religion seeks to interpret mysteries. If there weren't a lot of mysteries in religion, whether written or oral, there would be no need of shamans or priests or monks or rabbis to interpret.....or for Agatha Christie for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:17 PM

There's another trinity about which you might read more. Sophia, God, and Shekinah. Two feminine aspects in this one.Jesus even mentions Sophia in the Gnostic gospels.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:42 PM

Martin: Kabbalah?

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 01:47 PM

Try and steer clear of new age shit when studying religion. There is nothing wrong with pagan, wiccan, feminist, etc. spins being put on organized religion, but I think new age interpretations need to be viewed for what they are, which is somebody else's opinion about a subject with which they often have an ax to grind.

I think this is a very good example of the difference between "religion" and "spirituality". And why I have an experience of the latter and choose to have nothing to do with the former. In organized religions, people seek to impose their will upon other people's experience of spirituality... "you should do this and you will burn in hell for that". When people do that sort of thing, I tend to suspect alterior motives. My own belief is that organized religion was created for and has always been maintained as a means of controlling behavior. Nothing more, nothing less.

What you experience as your connection to the divine or to 'spirit' is your own business, dianavan, and nobody else's.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 03:40 PM

The use of the Unknown represented as Overwhelming as a control mechanism is as old as witchdoctors and vbolcanos, I reckon, and yes, it is a control mechanism, for better or for worse. Usually worse.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 05:42 PM

Actually, only those who believe in evangelism, are interested in shoving their version of religion down someone else's throat.

But there is an integrity to the denominations that deserve to be honored by everyone, not just Christians.

Of course, perhaps everyone is just saying "fuck that organized religious shit, I want to do my own thing with the Bible".

That's fine too. But if you'd tried doing that AS A CHRISTIAN 200 years ago in Austria, or the US, or anywhere else that Christian Europeans lived and colonized, you would have had some trouble getting the church fathers and the town fathers to believe you.

That's just the way it was, folks, and for most Christians (except the NASCAR, Born Again, New Age, and Fundamentalist Christians, they don't need no steeenkin' denominations!

OK! OK!

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:00 PM

Denominations are a funny thing, GUEST, 13 Apr 04 - 05:42 PM. They have a habit of multiplying when people within them can't agree on how their own members should behave. My favorite example of this is the two Lutheran churches that sit side by side next to each other just outside of the town of Accident, Maryland, USA. People got to squabbling about who was doing a better job of complying with whatever the rules were for being a good Lutheran, and they split into two factions (and now two different Synods) and that was that.

In organized religion, there is far more control, or at least efforts at control, within the religion or the denomination than efforts to control outsiders.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:46 PM

Denominations are a funny thing

Yeahm right up there with pokes in the eye with a sharp stick. Maybe we could get SNL to do a Battle of the Denominations skit, starring the Church Lady and her evil sister who belongs to the Dextorotary Baptists.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: IvanB
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:52 PM

Years back I read an account by a woman who, with her teenage daughter, made a canoe trip on Canada's MacKenzie River. Way out in the boonies, when they hadn't seen another human for weeks, a young missionary couple showed up. As their story unfolded, it turned out they had come originally from a church in Ohio named "The Believers of Christ." There'd been a squabble in the congregation and it was split, with those who left calling themselves "The True Believers of Christ." A couple years later, the inevitable squabble and another split. Thus, this young couple were now proselytizing for "The Only True Believers of Christ."

I got a bit of a chuckle from it but it's all too indicative of human group dynamics whether in religion or any other setting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:03 PM

Wow! When an outfit is THAT exclusive, you'd think there'd be hordes of people just panting to gain membership...

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:50 AM

LittleHawk, I gave up on religion years ago and set my own philosophy, which neither sees the glass as half-full or half-empty, but simply half-way to the next glass.
As a philosophy, I'd have to agree that it is a tad limited, but it works for me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:57 AM

Thanks to all of you for your contributions.

Carol C. - I know that what I believe is my own business but it helps to inform me when I know what others believe and what the different denominations believe.

The question regarding the Holy Spirit (ghost) has been on my mind for a long time. Perhaps it symbolizes woman as the life giving force or maybe its just another name for love. Its amazing to me how people faithfully accept what the church fathers have dictated without ever questioning the basics.

Thanks for your insight.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 11:17 AM

"Its amazing to me how people faithfully accept what the church fathers have dictated without ever questioning the basics."

And that's exactly why I no longer identify myself with any particular denomination.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 11:25 AM

GUEST, Guest - Well, that's a perfectly workable way of looking at it, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:47 PM

Martin Gibson-Judiasm isn't as complicated??? You mean the same religion that has 613 different commandments? Oh please!

LH-How about a glass that's just opaque? That way the mystery is maintained on just what exactly is in it, much less how much.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:48 PM

Carol C. - I know that what I believe is my own business but it helps to inform me when I know what others believe and what the different denominations believe.

I know. My post was really more of a response to people who are arguing about which of them is right than in response to you having posted this thread. I think this is a good thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 12:51 PM

So, we see "as through a glass, darkly..."

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:26 PM

That "darkly seeing" attribute is what I am talkin', man...how come IS that? Huh? And how do we wipe away that grimy stuff and see as through a glass clearly? What we need here, boy, is some SPIRICHOOAL WINDEX! SPIRCHOOAL WIPETTES!!!   YOWZAH! Now THAT's wot ah'm talkin' about!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:37 PM

I think people mistook my original post about why you shouldn't ask New Age Christians what the beliefs of the UUs or the UBs are. You should find out what the different denominations believe from the scholars of each denomination.

If you are looking for information about the history of religion, or the theological underpinings of a religion compared to another, you go to comparative religion or religious historians or archaeologists for that information.

That was all I was trying to point out--where to go for information. But apparently I wasn't very articulate about it, so I apologize for that. I am an adult survivor of Catholic indoctrination who is a confirmed secular agnostic. I advocate for secularism, not religion.

As to glass being half empty, full, or opaque--I threw the glass away a long time ago and now only drink from the bottle. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 01:56 PM

I want WINDEX OF THE SOUL, man!


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:26 PM

When in Germany a sausage factory exploded one of the sausages flew up that high that it landed in heaven. It was passed between all the angles and the saints and nobody could tell what it was. Then one of them suggested to show it to the Virgin Mary, because she had been on Earth and she might know.

Virgin Mary handled it, sniffed and looked at it for quite a while and then said: If it wasn't for that little piece of string at the one end I'd say it is the Holy Ghost.

Wolfgang (whose only weak excuse is that the friend from which he has the joke is a pastor)

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:26 PM

Ellenpoly

As someone who had religious training as a youth, and has been active in my reform congregation for a number of years, I have never heard of the 613 commandments you mention.

Could you please list them for me in all your wisdom?

In fact, please memorize them for me and you will be a better Jew than I am.

You can be sure there isn't a reformed or conservative rabbi anywhere who teaches or preaches these if they exist on some web site which you will frantically be looking for. If you are not sure, than I am.

I contend that Judiasm is much more simple than Chritianity. We focus on God. No other dieties or interpretations of supreme beings, family members of God, whether the Holy Spirit is a women, ghost, whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 02:46 PM

Wolfgang, that's a riot!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:15 PM

Well, then, Martin, you have a lot in common with the Muslims. They only focus on the one God too. Sublime simplicity. So why all this rumpus in Palestine? :-)

Wolfgang - I'm not sure I get it. Does the sausage reference have a double meaning in German or am I just dense? (now there's a great opening for someone to take advantage of....)

GUEST - As someone who grew up in the exact opposite situation from you (a secular, agnostic family) I find it intriguing that I ended up following a consciously spiritual path, but not joining any particular religion. One of the tasks incumbent upon children growing up is to achieve their own individuality and freedom...and in so doing they usually have to cast off much of the overlay that was put upon them by their parents and elders. You did it in your way, I did it in mine.

What I tried to do in order to be happy in life was:

I collected things I was interested in. Stamps, coins, model kits, books, etc.

I avoided nasty people as best I could, but couldn't avoid them at school!

I desperately sought my "one true love" for about 25 or 30 years, going out with various women. Didn't find her, but I did have some great learning experiences along the way.

I desperately sought the respect and approval of other people, eventually discovering that it actually doesn't matter all that much. What matters is self-respect and belief in one's one value, regardless of the opinions of others.

I sought security in its various forms...financial, emotional, etc.

The only thing I found that yielded genuine happiness was to change something inside myself...my own consciousness...and that led me directly into spiritual studies and convinced me that there is a "God" and a divine purpose in Life, and I am part of it. From this I have found much of the elusive happiness that I was searching for only in things outside of myself and not finding.

I belong to no formalized religion. I am friendly toward most of them.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:19 PM

WOlfgang:

Made my day!! LOL!


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:30 PM

;-)

Amos... are your feeling spiritually opaque?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:51 PM

Here you go, Martin. If I were to guess, I would say that Judaism, like many other religions, can be as simple or as complicated as each adherant chooses to make it:

The laws of the Torah

According to the Talmud (Tractate Makot), there are 613 mitzvot (commandments) in the Torah; In Hebrew these are known as the Taryag mitzvot. There are 248 positive mitzvot and 365 negative mitzvot given in the Torah, supplemented by seven mitzvot legislated by the rabbis of antiquity. However, in practice there is no one definitive list that explicates the 613 laws: Centuries after the idea of 613 laws came into existence various rabbis compiled lists of the 613 laws, yet each list varied slightly. The differences come about because in some places the Torah lists related laws together, so it is difficult to know whether one is dealing with a single law, which lists several cases, or several separate laws.

The laws of the Torah

The Talmud (tractate Makkoth 23b) states that the Torah contains 613 mitzvot (precepts), of which 248 are mitzvot aseh (positive commandments) - equal to the number of bones in the human body - and 365 mitzvot lo taaseh (negative commandments) - equal to the number of days in the solar year.

613 mitzvot

List of the 613 Mitzvot
Level: Advanced

Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own.

For each mitzvah, I have provided a citation to the biblical passage or passages from which it is derived, based primarily on Rambam. For commandments that can be observed today, I have also provided citations to the Chafetz Chayim's Concise Book of Mitzvot (CCA refers to affirmative commandments; CCN refers to negative commandments; CCI refers to commandments that only apply in Israel). Commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist) and criminal procedures (because the theocratic state of Israel does not exist).

List of the 613 mitzvot (commandments)

Judaism 101

Welcome!

Welcome to Judaism 101! Judaism 101 is an online encyclopedia of Judaism, covering Jewish beliefs, people, places, things, language, scripture, holidays, practices and customs. My goal is to make freely available a wide variety of basic, general information about Judaism, written from a traditional perspective in plain English. This web site is constantly growing, with new information added every few weeks...

...This site is created, written and maintained by Tracey Rich. I do not claim to be a rabbi or an expert on Judaism; I'm just a traditional, observant Jew who has put in a lot of research. I work as a law librarian. I am also the co-author of several legal reference texts, including Pennsylvania Damages: Personal Injury Verdicts and Settlements. I am a member of Congregation Or Shalom, a Conservative synagogue in Chester County, PA.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 03:58 PM

Ho...lee...F***! No wonder Jesus came along to simplify things a little. Sheesh. 613 F-ing commandments? I feel sick just thinking about it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:07 PM

Little Hawk,

come down from the more transcendental aspects of this world for this joke (grin). Though 'Wuerstchen' could have more meanings, it doesn't matter here. The joke is based purely upon the physical aspects of a typical medium sized Gwerman Wuerstchen:

It is red, about 6 inches long (which is never long enough), mostly comes with a slight curvature, its outside is a bit wet and slippery, it has a difficult to describe taste which some people do find repulsive,... I think there's no need to go on.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:15 PM

ROTFLMAO!!! Now I see it. My problem is, I guess I don't think as visually as some people do...

Good joke, Wolfgang.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 04:38 PM

Sounds like a Baptist MIGHT honor a wiener dog.

I can't keep all these threads straight.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:33 PM

Carol C

I love how you frantically search the Internet in all of it's positively truthful approach to all things factual to justify your arguements, instead of in most cases, practical experience. I am familiar with the Judiasm 101 site. It is there for ones who don't have a clue.

My rabbi has talked about this every week for years. Some of these laws are so ancient and dated. i.e: "you can stone anyone who takes your sheep." In the modern world of reform Judiasm, of which dominates somewhere around 65% of all Jews worldwide, many things in the Torah are simply guidelines or used today as metaphors. In other words, there is much in today's modern world that the astute reformed Jew does take with a grain of salt.

Little Hawk, yep them big, bad Moslems and Muslims even keep Kosher dietary laws like the Jews. But the one God concept and dietary laws are obviously not enough in common for them to have hated our guts for the last 1500 years or so. Personally I just think they hate Jews and America because of how our cultures have progressed out of the 9th century and their's basically hasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:44 PM

"Well, then, Martin, you have a lot in common with the Muslims. They only focus on the one God too. Sublime simplicity. So why all this rumpus in Palestine? :-)"

Oddly enough, I thought it was a family dispute. You see there were these two half-brothers, Isaac and Ishmael (according to most the ancestor of the Arab people and Mohammed himself)...

I also seem to remember that Mohammed forbade Mulims from harming either Jews or Christians and that Jews were treated quite well and free to practice their own religion in Jerusalem right up to the first Crusades when the Crusaders (I'm loath to call them Christians) got everyone messed up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 05:58 PM

Actually, I always thought that Isaac like his corned beef sandwich on rye and Ismael liked his on an onion roll and this is where it all started.

Strick, if you seem to remember Mohammad forbad Moslims, etc., you are a lot older person here than most people realize.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Strick
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 06:06 PM

"Strick, if you seem to remember Mohammad forbad Moslims, etc., you are a lot older person here than most people realize."

True enough, but more to the point I remember reading it in a translation of the Koran and other Islamic writings. As Jews and Christians we're "children of the book" which doesn't mean the Book of Moses or the Bible, but the book God keeps about His people. Seems like most Muslims got upset when we refused to accept them as part of God's people, too.

Three religions, one God and Abraham a central figure. If all any of us worried about what God, I don't think we'd have so much to be upset about.

As I've posted before, some Jews friends and I have an agreement. We all expect the Messiah any time now. Some of us are confused over whether this will be His first or second visit, but that's less important than the fact that He is coming.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:20 PM

As someone who had religious training as a youth, and has been active in my reform congregation for a number of years, I have never heard of the 613 commandments you mention.

Martin Gibson,

As a fellow Jew, I find it very surprising that anyone who had a Jewish education, or anyone who is active in a Jewish congregation of any denomination, would be so ignorant of something so basic.

By doing a simple Google search, CarolC was able to easily make you look very goyishe. Ouch.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:28 PM

I love how you frantically search the Internet in all of it's positively truthful approach to all things factual to justify your arguements

I don't have any opinion and I'm not making any arguments on this one, Martin. I ran across that stuff the other day while I was exploring around in the Wikipedia site, and I thought I would put it here in case you wanted to see it. I don't really care how you practice your religion.

As far as things like commandments are concerned, I have basically one concept that I try to remember in my own life, and it's hardly a commandment. That concept is this: whatever I do to another, I also do to myself. That's enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 08:41 PM

BTW, in case there is any confusion, the only words in my 14 Apr 04 - 03:51 PM post that are my own, are the ones in the first paragraph. Everything else in that post is a quote, either from the Wikipedia site, or from the Judaism 101 site, and can be found in the links I provided. I don't make any claim to being a scholar of any religion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:12 PM

Goishe, my ass, C-Watch. I certainly don't feel very foolish. I actually feel very vindicated by what I said. I also know that I have a terrific rabbi who easily sorts the real from the bullshit. Are you from New York? Wouldn't surprise me. Anyway, I don't give a shit. I'm sure that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. Anyone can search for a web-site and be an instant expert. I don't have to justify to your sorry ass anything.

Go back to watching C's or whatever you do, schmuck.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:22 PM

As C-watch has said,

"As a fellow Jew, I find it very surprising that anyone who had a Jewish education, or anyone who is active in a Jewish
congregation of any denomination, would be so ignorant of something so basic."

I agree.

I also find it hard to believe that anyone who claims to have had religious training and is an active member of a congregation would stoop to the level of name-calling when he feels he might be losing an argument. Perhaps more people could hear you if you used logic and reason. Have you been vindicated or are you vindictive?

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:25 PM

Goyishe = foolish? Interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
From: GUEST,C-watch
Date: 14 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM

"Goyishe" is used as an adjective to describe something that is non-Jewish or is in a particularly non-Jewish context.

For example, eating a pastrami sandwich on rye bread with mustard is Jewish. Putting the pastrami on white bread with mayo is is goyishe.

Anyone who's had a Jewish education would have understood the reference to the 613 commandments. When Martin Gibson said he'd never heard of them, he looked goyishe.

There is also an expression, "goyishe kup," which is Yiddish slang for a foolish person. That wasn't really the context of my usage, but after reading Martin's latest post, maybe it should have been.