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BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost
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Subject: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: dianavan Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:39 PM In your religion, what (or who) is the holy ghost? This is a serious inquiry. I understand the meaning of The Father (God) and The Son (Jesus) but what exactly is your understanding of the Holy Ghost? If you say spirit, please explain what your religion means by spirit and what that has to do with the trinity. Is it the same in Roman Catholicism as it is in Orthodox Christianity? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: GUEST,Shlio Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:47 PM I'm a Christian, but have no idea what type I am. I converted about a year and a half ago, and since then have heard some pretty contradictory views. The understanding I currently have is that the Holy Spirit is the part of the divine that is within Christians. At my Christian Union, people sometimes pray for the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and say that it is the Spirit that gives gifts such as speaking in tongues. I am, however, very willing to be corrected if I've misunderstood. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Chief Chaos Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:48 PM Last I heard they took the last train for the coast. I think the holy ghost is the one who had to pay for the tickets. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:56 PM Ah. Well, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are merely three symbols of a Divine Trinity. The Divine is a single Unity, but you can express it as: 1. One 2. A Duality: Light and Darkness, Here and There, Finite and Infinite, Manifest and Unmanifest, etc... 3. A Trinity: Mother, Father, Child; Father, Son, Holy Spirit; Length, Width, Breadth; Above, Below, Within; etc... The founders of Christianity, for their own cultural reasons, chose to express their trinity as a Father, a Son, and an indeterminate force or presence designated "Holy Spirit" or "Holy Ghost". In doing so, they left out an obvious female component in Creation, which was a silly thing to do, but they were living in a very patriarchal order at that time. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Megan L Date: 12 Apr 04 - 04:57 PM dianavan sorry cant help from theological viewpoint but comming from an island with 2 distileries I always feel there is a parralel. the grain and the crystal water are distilled and the resultant spirit is the essence of them both. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: GUEST,Shlio Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:03 PM Little Hawk - what religion do you follow, please? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:07 PM For starters, the Trinity is a mystery I'm comfortable not understanding. When Christ knew that he was going to be crucified, he told his disciples that he was going to send someone to lead them and comfort them. Blind Willie Johnson sings about the Comforter coming, and he's talking about the Holy Spirit. Some people think of the Holy Spirit as their conscience. Everyone (including Atheists catch themselves saying " something just told me to do it..." That inner voice that guides us, that we all have and call different things can be thought of as the Holy Spirit. I spent a long summer reading books about the Holy Spirit and my conclusion was that the "something" in "something tells me" is the Holy Spirt... God revealing his will to me. Of course, this may seem like a bunch of hogwash to Atheists and Agnostics. But, you asked... Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Amos Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:08 PM Dunno much about JEsus, but it has always seemed to me that the life-force of the individual consciousness is about as Holy Ghosty as one can get, short of falling into the infinite (whihc I suppose is the father side in some perspectives). But I see no merit in subdividing these things inotthese categories, frankly. IT does not make for more effective knowledge. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:48 PM I am an Episcopalian. From where I am today, I would say this. First, we all have spirit. It is created in us and given to us freely. Like our minds and our actions, it is controlled by our free will. We can direct how and in what direction it is developed, and this can be affected by how we are treated and raised as children, and other life experience. The experience of choosing Christ as Lord and Savior, and deciding to follow Him, is a transforming experience. One thing that is transformed (initially and then also over time) is our spirit. One way this transformation happens is through the grace of the Holy Spirit.... grace in this sense being an outpoured sacred love that envelops us and draws us closer. Each time this occurs-- each time we accept it-- there is more transformation, more closeness, more response from us. Over time, with continual yielding into this, we become more like Christ. We start to want to give up anything in us that does not conform to Him.... we start to see things from a view of loving Him more than anything else, and this changes so much about our lives, I can't even describe it. What is good is strengthened, what is not good (for us or anyone else) is redeemed into something else that IS good. So in one sense, part of the gift to the believer is "holy-spirit"... a continually-transformed spirit, increasingly conforming to the full stature of Christ, the new person created in us.... THE "Holy Spirit" is in us but it is not of us, and is not we ourselves... it is one way we view and interact with God, but it comes from God, and we respond to it, and can be immersed in it. It is given to us for many reasons, perhaps most importantly for the building up of the body of the faithful. THAT Holy Spirit is a gift to believers only.... it follows an act or decision of faith that indicates we are willing to accept it as the unearned gift it is. Once accepted, it enkindles in us an increasingly accurate hearing and response to God's will for us. Without that gift, there is much about Christianity and God's Word that isn't going to make sense or fully resonate. This is one reason nonbelievers have so much trouble understanding whatever people of faith say we know as a certainty, and why conversation about some of these matters of the heart can be so frustating and so unproductive of understanding. This Holy Spirit is part of God, not part of us. As such it has all the power you would expect a Supreme Being to have, not one-third of it. :~) It is a means of giving us MORE gifts-- Spiritual Gifts to know things we could not know in ourselves, gifts of leadership beyond what we could otherwise do, and so forth. These are supernaturally-powered Gifts that we do not power ourselves, over and far above our natural talents, skills, or personality traits, but working in concert with our developed talents and skills and traits..... if you are yielded to this, you receive a lot, and the more you receive and use as God would have you use it, the more often and more deeply this happens. We are encouraged to test our perception of the work of the Holy Spirit in us and through us and around us, to avoid being fooled by our only-human senses and desires. We test these experiences and the conclusions we reach by comparing them with Scripture and the life of Jesus as it has been revealed to us. Some Bible translations have merged these two different concepts-- holy-spirit and THE Holy Spirit-- into one translated term, "Holy Spirit," in several passages. The Bible does this a lot-- translation that limits concepts or mixes them up. This is because the original languages, and especially the Greek of the NT, were rich in meanings to the people of their time, that are not easily boiled down into a few starkly-printed words. We have a current-day parallel that can help make this clearer-- how many words are there for SNOW in some languages? Each word, to a speaker of that language, evokes a picture, a smell, a touch, maybe a sound. But in English, it's ALL just "snow," and we struggle in prose or poetry to be accurate about what we might have experienced or meant to evoke. All I can really tell you that I think is observable from outside my experience or my words is this-- it works for me, and I get smarter and more effecive in the world, not less. It opens me to life, doesn't close me off from the world. It's the only thing I have ever found that is bigger than I am, that I have to keep up with instead of it keeping up with me. I don't mind that it is stuff that I will never fully understand in my "lifetime." Since to me, "liftime" includes the eternity I'll enjoy in Jesus' lap, I hope to understand more while caring less that I do not understand ALL. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: GUEST Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM In doing so, they left out an obvious female component in Creation, which was a silly thing to do, but they were living in a very patriarchal order at that time. And so we see how all that is supposed to be believed and absolute is rewritten in the image of its time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:55 PM A lot of people see the Holy Spirit as female, or genderless. And a lot of other people say Jesus had a pretty well-developed feminine side. :~) ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:02 PM Of course. People always express any great archetype through the imagery that is characteristic of their time and their way of thinking. That doesn't discredit the archetype, it merely characterizes it in a particular fashion. It's the only way people know how to do it. We are all doing that right now, each in our own particular fashion. Schlio - I belong to no religion and I respect all of them. I belong to Life, as we all do. I accept that God or Spirit or Truth are far bigger matters than any particular religion can encompass or have ownership of or jurisdiction over. I have studied the Native Medicine Way, Christianity, Taoism, some Buddhism, some Hinduism, Yoga, a little of the Muslim and Jewish faiths, and numerous forms of philosophy. I find some of the Truth in all of them. They all began as an honest search for Truth. They all expressed it as best they could through the means they were familiar with. I consider the Christ to be an active Spirit that assists humanity, but I do not consider the Christ concept to be an exclusively Christian one by any means. Was Jesus an embodiment of the Christ Spirit at that time (2,000 years ago)? Yes, I think so. Was he the only one ever. No, I don't think so at all. There have been many. He was certainly one of the most notable incarnations of the Christ Spirit in historical times, and the force of what he taught and demonstrated is still very much in effect, and I mean that in an entirely positive sense...quite apart from some of the horrible things people and churches have done in his name. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Once Famous Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:08 PM In Judiasm, there is God. There is no son of God. God is all we ever will need. We, essentially, accept no substitutes. The real and original is good enough. As I have said before, Jews do not deny Jesus, a fine man indeed, lived and died. But he did die, as any mortal does. It is fine with me if you believe that he died for your sins, but everyone keeps on sinning, anyway. That also means that we believe there is no Holy Ghost. Unless you are talking about Casper, of course. :') |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:13 PM Sure, Martin, but it's just conventions...ways of talking about something. Who can define God? Who has seen God? We find ways of symbolizing and expressing the Inexpressible, as best we can. I guess it's the same reason I belong to no political party...I see that they each have part of the truth, but I see no likelihood of any of them having exclusive claim upon it. I consider myself fortunate to have grown up in a family that had no church or religion, because it left me open to all of them. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: dianavan Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:25 PM I asked this question because I could not understand how I could possibly believe in another's holy spirit. So I assumed it must be a spirit that everyone believed in. I now think that the holy spirit must be faith itself. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Bobert Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:47 PM Well, gol danged. The Holy Ghost (Spirit) is definately a female 'cause it can nag worser than my third grade teacher, Miss Dial, ever did and I'm here to tell ya' that woman was downright evil in her naggin'. Sho nuff. Like you think about doing domethin' dumb and there either Miss Dial 'er the Holy Spirit whoppin' yer butt upside the head with a stick. Sho nuff. Might of fact, I think Miss Dial woulda given the Holy Spirit one heck of a run in any butt whop contest... But, sniff, it ain't all about whuppin' up on ya when ya think bad thoughts, both of 'em were real good at tellin' ya the stuff you should be doing. Yup, they seem to know more about yer than you do and so they just keep givin' you these little talks to keep yer butt out of the ditches and moving forward... Now that may not seem too theological but it's my take on Holy Spirit. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: dianavan Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:06 PM So, the Holy Spirit seems to be the faith to listen to you conscience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Mark Clark Date: 12 Apr 04 - 07:23 PM I really like what Jerry said, “the Trinity is a mystery I'm comfortable not understanding.” In Orthodoxy we accept many Mysteries by faith and make no attempt to reduce them to human understanding. Our Church grew from the Apostles, the Holy Fathers, and the Seven Ecumenical Councils. We make no pretense at understanding the Divine in any human sense. The Eastern Orthodox Church uses the Nicene Creed: I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth and of all things, visible and invisible;In Orthodoxy, the Holy Trinity refers to a triune God, one God with three distinct characterizations. We celebrate the first revelation of the Trinity at the Feast of Holy Theophany (the Baptisim of Christ). Orthodox Icons of The Creation always depict Christ as the instrument of Creation. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: jaze Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:02 PM Martin, weren't the prophets who predicted a savior for the Jews Jewish? Was is God(the Father) himself they were expecting? As opposed to an aspect of him like Jesus? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: IvanB Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:13 PM Martin, all English translations of the OT that I've read state something of the nature that "the Spirit of God moved upon the waters" in Genesis 1:2. If the Spirit of God is not "the" Holy Spirit, I don't know what would be. I state this mainly because I've heard from Jewish scholars that a dual nature of God, i.e., person and spirit, was part of Judaism from its very beginning. I'd be interested in knowing your ideas regarding this from your reading of Hebrew scripture. Is there a mistranslation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: dianavan Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:23 PM Prior to 325 A.D. most religions were dualistic (recognition of good and evil) but after that, the Holy Spirit was introduced as the soul of man which was mostly evil but also contained seeds of goodness - is that right? Baptism is then the act of purifying the soul. Even Jesus had to have his soul cleansed because he was a mortal. Thats why Christians believe we are all born sinners. Am I right so far? Seems to me that acknowledgement of good and evil should suffice. Except by a large degree of faith in the wisdom of the Church Fathers, there is very little reason to believe in the trinity. I'm beginning to believe that I am more Jewish than not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Donuel Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:27 PM Considering all the different authors of the bible it is clear they did not all consult each other. There may have been some good ideas there once upon a time but I am afraid too many cooks spoiled the broth. If confusion is to be limited why don't you just take Lividicus as the only true version. (Its closer to the Koran that way) love these church signs as of late... http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/church-signa.jpg |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: dianavan Date: 12 Apr 04 - 08:56 PM Actually, Don, the bible doesn't seem to mention the holy ghost or the trinity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Mark Clark Date: 12 Apr 04 - 09:52 PM Mathew 3:16-17 says “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” I believe this is a prime biblical source for the Feast of Holy Theophany. Besides that, the phrase “Holy Spirit” is found in Psalms (51), Luke, Thessalonians, twice in Ephesians and in the Apocryphal books of Susanna and the Wisdom of Solomon. The King James Bible uses the term “Holy Ghost” more often with references in Matthew (6), Mark (4), Luke (11), John (1), Acts (42), Romans (5), 1 Corinthians (3), 2 Corinthians (2), 1 Thessolonians (2), 2 Timothy (1), Titus (1), 1 Peter (1), 2 Peter (1), 1 John (1) and Jude (1). The Bible may be easily searched at The University of Virginia's Electronic Text Center for those wishing to check their theories before posting. <g> - Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: dianavan Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:03 PM Thanks Mark, I respect your knowlege of the bible. I got my information from your blue clicky about the Feast of Holy Theophany. I'll do some more reading. It seems (at this point) that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are explained as three separate entities that were introduced after 325 A.D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Mark Clark Date: 12 Apr 04 - 10:44 PM Actually, dianavan, I'm not much of a Bible student. I just used the search engine to look stuff up. The reason I'm such a pain in the ass about Christian Theology is that I'm a convert to Orthodoxy having been raised in a Protestant tradition, and then becoming a very confirmed athiest. Converts are often more knowledgeable about their chosen faith than those born to it. I'm really not trying to make any theological points in these posts. I've only been trying answer what I saw as honest questions from people who wanted to know some history but don't really want a sales pitch. The reason I often link to WikipediA is to try, when possible, to use a neutral source for reasons of academic integrity. The truth is that while I do maintain a strong personal faith, I'm generally more comfortable hanging out in bars with a bunch of smart-ass reprobates than I am with people who call themselves Christian. See, I don't think getting drunk with reprobates is sinful, I think using a mask of Christianity to justify inflicting your will on other people is sinful. I think we've about exhausted the legitimate questions people have so I'll go back to my corner and order another round for me and my reprobate friends. Maybe Spaw will come along and help us celebrate Passout. <g>- Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Tinker Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:22 PM Diana, I'm also an Episcopal, but a bit of a left-leaning feminist in my Theology. I've been reading "Pneumatology" lately. (Study of the Spirit) Damn doesn't that sound like a disease??? Or at least the study of a disease??? It at least seems like something that should be hospitalized. The fact that it is the only part of the Trinity historically rooted in the feminine I'm sure has nothing to do with it's position as a step child in theology. I do know that by definition I can't really understand, but occaisionally some writers or my own experiences give me glimpses of what we refer to as Spirit. To paraphrase a better scholar, there is more to God than two guys and a dove. Some things that have made me pause for thought... The Wisdom traditions of Christianity identify the Spirit with Sophia. Elohim, one of three Hebrew words for God is actually a feminine plural... Ruah refers to the breath of life and is also feminine... But the really difficult part is that the three parts of the Trinity are really still one. Each is always part of the others, and the sum is greater than it's parts. I could only find a review,butShe Who Is by Elizabeth Johnson is a book I would highly recommend if you are trying to explore both the Trinity and Christianity as a modern woman. Joy of the hunt... tinker |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Kent Davis Date: 12 Apr 04 - 11:58 PM Dianavan, there is more to say than could be said in a quick email in a discussion forum. However, since you asked, I'm a plain Christian, no denomination, not Protestant, not Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox. I was raised as a United Methodist and became a member of the church of Christ 23 years ago. The Holy Spirit is famously difficult to describe. That's not too surprising really. Quantum physics, Relativity, and even folk music are difficult to describe. Why should the Divine Nature to be easy to describe? Nevertheless, we can learn a lot about the Holy Spirit by examining what the prophets say about the subject. For example, the very beginning of the Torah, Genesis 1, describes the Holy Spirit as active in the creation of the world. In Exodus 31:3, the LORD (i.e., YHWH, the Father) tells Moses that He has chosen a man named Bezalel to be "filled with the Spirit of God" to enable him to design and make beautiful art to be used in worship. In Numbers 24:2, "the Spirit of God came upon" Balaam, enabling him to prophesy. There are hundreds of other examples. I choose these because they all are unquestionably older than the Nicene Creed of 325 and also because they predate Christianity. The Holy Spirit wasn't invented by Christianity. It was much the other way around. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Apr 04 - 12:29 AM dianavan - Since it is possible to look upon anything from 3 angles, why isn't it possible to look at God from 3 angles? Does this in any way interfere with the idea of one God. Not to me it doesn't. I can look at one thing from 3 angles...no problem. It's simply 3 aspects of one God to speak of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Here is what it could very well mean: The Father as the original, Unmanifest, unseen power and intelligence behind all Creation. The Son as all manifested individual things in that Creation. And the Holy Spirit as the active energy that brings the Son into manifestation and sustains the Son at all times! Think about that for a minute. Before the Big Bang there was only the Father (unmanifest). Through the action of the Holy Spirit the Big Bang occurs, bringing the Son (all perceivable phenomena and things) into visible, tactile, observable existence. Now a statement such as: "God's Spirit moved upon the waters" doesn't necessarily have to mean the Holy Spirit in a specific sense (as a part of the official Christian Trinity). It could just as well mean that God's focused intention or God's creative energy or God's power or God's intelligence moved upon a field of possibilty...resulting in that field of possibility being changed. Most of what is contained in ancient religious writing is highly allegorical, poetic, and symbolic. Those writings were put down by spiritual adepts to be understood by spiritual adepts in a time when most people couldn't read. The ordinary public was not expected to comprehend the mysteries contained in those texts, and they were instead given simple sets of rules and ceremonials to follow, while the people who devoted their lives to religious study (and who could read) got deeper into the symbols and hidden meanings. That's why it's very misleading for modern people to interpret the Bible or the Baghavad Gita or other ancient texts of that kind in a bald and literal manner. You have to grasp the poetic symbols and see the meanings behind them. It's allegory, metaphor, parable, not a news report or a history lesson. Fundamentalists don't get that, and on that basis they have historically gone around doing the most extraordinarily unspiritual things...like condemning and killing any people who don't happen to see it their way. Atheists don't get it either, needless to say, because they don't even realize that there is anything there to get. They're busy counting beans and measuring physical distances. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: dianavan Date: 13 Apr 04 - 02:06 AM Yes, Little Hawk, I can see God from many angles. I'm just trying to figure out why the Christian, church fathers chose only 3 - the trinity. I thought it was a simple question but I guess not. I also understand the idea of being filled with the Spirit of God. But the more I read, the more it seems that the Holy Spirit is considered to be separate from both the Father and the son, not indwelling. Tinker - "Pneumatology" ??? Thanks for the name of the book. Years ago, I tried to answer this question with an essay in Anthropology. The prof. wrote, "I have no idea what you're talking about but I'm sure you understand it better than I." A- I wanted to study Religion and the Humanities but couldn't find a practical use for it and needed to feed my family. Thanks to all of you for your references. I will be busy reading all of them and trying to figure this out. Well, Mark, what can I say. If I were there, I'd have to buy you a drink. Have one for me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Metchosin Date: 13 Apr 04 - 02:56 AM Thank you Little Hawk, wonderfully lucid observations, I appreciate your clarity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Ellenpoly Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:04 AM Learning a lot here, as usual, about how you can interpret something as intangible as Spirit..or even more intriguing, the word "Ghost" in this context. I find myself nodding again with LH in how he illucidates his thoughts on a complex subject...and I run into one great problem, which is the absense of the feminine as a force within the belief system of Judeo/Christian/Islamic structures. Poor Mary even had to be a Virgin, thereby eliminating her role as being a physical part of Jesus, and any other women in these books are marginalized to say the least, certainly in terms of their power and ability to govern, much less their spirit being encompassed within the trinity. People may choose to interpret it being there, but nothing I think is written to that end. So where exactly does that leave half the human population in regards to the Holy Spirit? I do understand that the times were patriarchal, but are they still? Will it EVER be "The Father,Mother,Son, and Holy Ghost?..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: GUEST Date: 13 Apr 04 - 04:46 AM Well, summing all this up, I'd have to say that Man became sapient, wondered where he came from and to describe all the things he didn't understand, decided that he must have had a father/creator (God). This was sufficient for the jews for 5,000 years and they wrote a nice book with lots of laws, family histories, disasters and persecutions about their history. Some guys were unhappy with this one, vengeful God thing and decided that their God was now a loving entity. So loving of the Man He created in His own image that He sent His own son to save us all from our sins. But in spite of being able to create Adam out of mud and Eve from a rib, this time He decided to surrupticiously impregnate a married but "still virgin" jewish woman to carry His son to birth. This virgin birth was apparently unremarkable at the time as it is not recorded by the jews and it is thirty years later before we hear anything more on the life and death of the Son of God. Another collection of good stories are gathered together (all of them written hundreds of years later that the incidents described and most certainly not by the authors ascribed). Now we have the Father and the Son, but there is something lacking. Along come the theologians who put the final piece of the puzzle in place, "the Holy ghost", which completes the "Trinity". Only they and their "priests" are able to understand this twist and able to teach it to the lay folk, ensuring themselves of an easy life here on the planet. Later, some other "Sons of God" and "Prophets" appear in other parts of the world. Then one "Christian" priest decides there is corruption in the organisation and nails some demands on a church door. After this, it is "Open House" for anyone who can marshall a few followers together to worship their own idea of who God is! An amazing story - but just a story. So whose religion is the right one? There are so many to choose from. They can't all be right, so if God really is sending a message, it seems he is a poor communicator. I surmise that God did not invent Man. Man invented God! If you disagree, please furnish proof. Like, real PROOF! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Pied Piper Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:30 AM Very succinctly put Guest. The Council of Nicea is where all this came to a head. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: GUEST Date: 13 Apr 04 - 06:48 AM Weren't they the ones that took the last train for the coast, the day the music died? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: GUEST,Different Guest Date: 13 Apr 04 - 08:54 AM Well, I'm learning a lot from this thread, just not about religion. What I'm learning is how poorly educated and dangerously ignorant Christians are about their own religion, and that there are now generic Christians. I didn't know there was such a thing as a generic Christian, so I guess this my first new thing I've learned today. dianavan, I think a lot of confusion comes from people who claim they aren't Christian or denominationally Christian (ie they are feminist, they are enlightened Buddhists, they are generic Christian) attempting to present their beliefs as facts about religion, especially when they themselves have no real experience of those religions. They've just decided they don't like that particular denomination, or they don't like Christians, or they don't like organized religion in general. It is interesting to me how generational this ignorance is, and how prevalent it is among the "anything goes" baby boomers. There are distinct differences among the denominations of Christianity, betweeen orthodox and non-orthodox, and between Christians and Jews, about how the holy ghost is interpreted. Mark Clark is correct about the eastern orthodox. I would respectfully disagree that using "academic" sources to determine what the different religions and denominations believe is better. I think it makes more sense to get the information on what a Catholic believes from Catholic academic sources, what an Episcopalian believes from Episcopalian academic sources, etc. I can only tell you what my understanding is of the holy ghost in the faith I was raised in, which is the American Catholic church, even though I am no longer a practicing Catholic, and am not a huge fan of organized religion. So, my understanding of the meaning of the holy ghost to American Catholics, is that the holy ghost is viewed as a divine person. That is the simple, straightforward answer for a subject that is neither simple, nor straightforward. You might want to read more about this at the Catholic Encyclopedia website here: The person of the Holy Ghost You can also do a search in their search engine, which brings up many hits. Remember, there is a big difference in asking about the theological beliefs and traditions of a specific religion, and asking what the historical facts are about that religion. If it is the latter you are interested in, then Mark Clark's suggestion of trying to find more neutral academic sources is the way to go. But if you want to learn what the actual beliefs and traditions are, you should go to the religious academic sources for that particular religion. What you probably shouldn't do, is rely on Mudcat for theological answers, if this thread is anything to go by. Try and steer clear of new age shit when studying religion. There is nothing wrong with pagan, wiccan, feminist, etc. spins being put on organized religion, but I think new age interpretations need to be viewed for what they are, which is somebody else's opinion about a subject with which they often have an ax to grind. I'd also steer clear of interpretations given by people who claim to be Christian, but of no denomination. Historically, there has never been such a thing, although amongst American baby boomers the "I'm just a Christian" is usually (not always) indicative of "born again" and fundamentalist Christians who don't seem to know anything much about religion, but who want to use religion as a justification from right wing secular traditions of a nasty sort. Just my opinion, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: artbrooks Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:14 AM Translations, while they prove absolutely nothing about the beliefs of the original authors, can be interesting. For example, IvanB mentioned that Genesis 1.2 contains the phrase "Spirit of God." That is how the Revised Standard reads. However, the Jewish Publication Society of America translation reads "spirit of God." Similarly, this particular Christian translation renders Psalms 51 as saying "holy Spirit," while the Jewish Bible says "holy spirit." Hebrew does not have capitol letters, by the way. A point for Tinker, although my Hebrew is pretty stale...the ending "-im" is normally masculine. The feminine equivalent is "-ot." An exception is for items that occur naturally in pairs; in that case, both masculine and feminine use the "-im" ending. I would not presume to make a judgement on whether or not the word "Elohim" is masculine, feminine or a plural pair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Amos Date: 13 Apr 04 - 09:24 AM If you wouldst perceive a granfalloon Remove the skin from a toy balloon Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. The quote is from memory and may have been altered in the process. I believe all these issues are non-issues, non-problems, and though there are plenty of questions, you can find as many or better in any edition you choose of Tales from the Brothers Grimm. As soon parse the thought processes of Ents. However, it is as fine a way to waste one's time on Earth as another. If it brings you satisfaction. I have never understood that, but, hey, chacun a son mauvais gout, right? Some people like bodhrans and some NASCAR. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Tinker Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:16 AM The foundations of belief are individual even when they grow from a particular denominational base. The book I cited above is considered academic enough to be required in Episcopal Seminary. There are fundamental questions those of us born female do struggle to answer when addressing our ability to "image Christ" and what that means in both historical and modern context. Various Christian denominations make those definitions in opposing terms. Each of us has to make a personal faith decision. But while you may choose on faith not to agree with the work of scholars like Elisabeth Schussleer Fiorenza or Elaine Pagels, their work does provoke questions and interpretations worth consideration. If nothing else blatant denials only help one maintain their integrity of definition. Blessed be, tinker |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Amos Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:22 AM If nothing else blatant denials only help one maintain their integrity of definition. Tinker, This sentence eludes me completely -- could you clarify its meaning for me? Thanks, A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: dianavan Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:29 AM Ellenpoly - The best explanation, so far is that the the holy spirit is the life-giving force. That makes sense because in those days, conception was a total mystery. It is also the mediating principle between God (the heavenly father) and the Son (Jesus). It would stand to reason that the holy spirit is the mother. In that case mother and father and child represent the triniity (joined together as one in God). Thats the best I've come up with so far. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Pied Piper Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:38 AM I thought this Vitalism Bollox had been dealt with centuries ago, but I guess news travels slow in this neck of the woods. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Ellenpoly Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:39 AM I rather like that, dianavan. This is all a bit out of my own personal realm, (as I am not a Christian) but nevertheless greatly interested in all spiritual beliefs, and I appreciate your thoughts. Tinker, I have to agree with Amos, you lost me on that last sentence. Could you try again? I will take the time to find and read the authors you mentioned..xx.e |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:44 AM Spirituality is learned through direct experience and personal change and growth. Isaiah had direct experience. So did Jesus, John the Baptist, Buddha, Zoroaster, Gandhi, Krishna, Baha'Ullah, and many other such beings. The experience of spirituality can lead to enlightenment. Religion is learned by rote. It is learned from books, from priests, and from churches. It is learned by imitation (monkey see...monkey do). It is enforced by conformity. It results in people with fixed, rigid opinions based not upon their own experience but on what someone else told them to believe...and it very seldom leads to enlightenment. Spirituality is not confined to any single religion...nor is God. And yes, Guest, most people create the God of their imagining in their own image...or their own chosen or borrowed-from-others image (which may be radically different in some respects from their image of themselves), but that doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Most people create the World in their own image too, baby! And the World exists. What do I mean? A person who always looks at the glass as half-empty sees the World as a hard and cruel place, and likely sees God (if he believes in God) as a harsh and demanding judge. A person who see the glass as half full sees the World as a place of much positive possibility, a beautiful place, and he probably sees God (if he believes in God) as a beneficent and loving power. The person who sees the glass as brimming over is in the best shape of all, and has probably achieved enlightenment or something close to it. Now you...you appear to be the guy who says...aw, that's just a friggin' glass! Too bad for you. :-) It makes for a mighty prosaic and mundane existence. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Amos Date: 13 Apr 04 - 10:46 AM Pied Piper: "Vitalism bollox", as used in your last post, implies what, exactly? That all life is an organization of particles and that perception itself is a mechanism? Awareness is a circuit and understanding a field effect? Just want to make sure I understand what you are saying, exactly. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Kim C Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:05 AM "I'd also steer clear of interpretations given by people who claim to be Christian, but of no denomination." Excuse me? Denominations are a distinctly modern convention, born of theological disagreements among different groups of people. The Bible doesn't even mention denominations, only Christians as part of the "body of Christ." I do not find it necessary as a Christian to ally myself with one particular group of believers, as I don't believe that one is superior to another, and some have beliefs that have no basis in Biblical theology. For instance, I came up in the Baptist church, which has a prohibition against dancing, even though there is no commandment that says "thou shalt not dance." So how should I choose? And more importantly, why? I certainly don't fault those who choose to be part of a particular denomination. At this point in my life, I am simply not led that way. I do not believe it makes me "less" of a Christian. Now, about the Holy Ghost... I just always figured the Holy Spirit was the all-encompassing entity that included the Father and the Son, as well as the Mother and the Daughter, so to speak. I also have thought about this: Perhaps the human trinity of body-mind-spirit mirrors the Holy Trinity, and that's what it means to be created in God's image. Your mileage may vary. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Pied Piper Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:09 AM The Universe is what it is, dividing it in to mater and spirit as if they could be un-entangled as separate types of stuff, as usual with religious thought is a gross oversimplification and explains nothing because evidence of how this spirit stuff is supposed to affect mater stuff (or vica verca) is never provided. We end up in most religious traditions with a vertical hierarchy of low base mater up to pure high altitude spirit which is in some way outside the universe. So these ideas do not account for or explain what gives rise the nature of the spirit stuff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:15 AM Exactly, Kim! Body-Mind-Spirit IS the human manifestation of the Holy Trinity. The body is the Son, the mind is the Holy Spirit, and the spirit is the Father (the originating source and purpose that built the body and the mind). The spirit lasts forever. The body and mind appear, as if out of nothing, grow and learn and evolve, then die and disappear as if into nothing...and then are born again as a new young body and spirit, and the process of spiritual evolution continues. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Ellenpoly Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:18 AM And Mom is where again, LH?..xx..:>) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost From: Tinker Date: 13 Apr 04 - 11:22 AM Okay, I'm sorry. There are many who firmly believe in a Pauline Christianity in which women are to keep silent, can never fully image Christ,etc. As long as both sides define themselves cleary each of us can know where the other is coming from and discussion can continue (or not) hopefully with respect. It can be difficult when a blanket term such as Christianity is used as a self definition by many people with totally different intentions. It is way to easy to feel the other side is attacking integrity or intellegence rather than intellectual debate. I was hurrying and as a result left things unclear. Tinker |
