Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845

Subject: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 May 10 - 03:22 AM

BBC Radio 3 19.50 Thursday 20.5.10

Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew

It was on this day, 20th May in 1845, that Lord Franklin's ships the Erebus and Terror cleared the mouth of the Thames on their voyage to find the Northwest Passage. A traditional song recounts the story 'of Franklin and his gallant crew' and through this Julian May explores Franklin's fateful, indeed fatal, voyage, and reveals how folk song, as well as beautiful and inspiring, can be history.

You can read more about it here

Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew

Hopefully it will be on the iplayer

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: NormanD
Date: 19 May 10 - 04:17 AM

Also the inspiration for Bob Dylan's "Bob Dylan's Dream", on 'Freewheelin'. He uses the melody, and some lyrics, and acknowledges the source in the sleeve notes. It later led me to this far older song, "Lady Franklin's Lament" - lots of discussion here in the past.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 19 May 10 - 11:11 AM

My preferred version by the Duncan McFarlane Band has Stan Rogers' chorus added. Terrific. I doubt it will be featured on this radio programme though!.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Mr Happy
Date: 19 May 10 - 11:19 AM

FRANKLIN [Stanley Accrington 1993]

I was in a folk club the other week
Someone sang Lord Franklin and I fell asleep
I dreamed a dream, and I thought it true
Concerning Franklin and his gallant crew

From Baffin Bay where the whale fish play
쳌ecross the frozen ocean in the month of May
For a North west passage his course was fixed
That's in Canada not up the M6

The expedition had limited means
The only food they had was tins of beans
Even the Eskimo in his skin canoe
Had baked beans and frozen fish fingers too

With all those beans the winds began to blow
The fate of Franklin no man doth know
The fate of Franklin no man can tell
All that was left of him was a funny smell

In those days the tins were made with lead
They should have been made from steel instead
The crew grew sick and wished they'd never started
And as for Franklin ....... he simply departed

But now my story it gives me pain
I just can쳌ft listen to that song again
Without thinking of that blunder alimentary
Which I heard about in a documentary

I was down at a folk club where the admission's cheap
Someone sang Lord Franklin and I fell asleep
Dreamed ten thousand pounds was freely given
By Lady Franklin, who'd not seen the television

Franklin didn쳌ft die from the effects of lead
I think the beans did for him instead
I think he exploded in the arctic air
And punched a big hole in the ozone layer!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Charmion
Date: 19 May 10 - 11:34 AM

Har, har.

Relics of the Franklin expedition still turn up occasionally in the Arctic Archipelago. People who should know better bring them south as curiosities despite strict laws against disturbing archaeological sites.

Years ago, I was shown a shoebox containing, among other things, shreds of boot-leather and rusted food cans with their lids and bottoms swollen from decomposition gases. The cans had all been opened with a crude tool, probably a spike.

These items were recovered from a cache on King William Island, and kept as a grisly trophy. They sure gave me the shudders.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: JeffB
Date: 19 May 10 - 12:26 PM

Hi Norman D,

I've always assumed that Lady Franklin's Lament was the older song, simply because it's more developed and a lot of its phrases are in Lord Franklin, but never had any proof. Do you know when they appeared?

While on the subject, can you tell me where the tunes come from? I sing the Lament to the the melody of Lord Franklin because I don't particularly enjoy the Lament's sturdy hymn-like tune. I wonder how many others do the same.

In 1984 the graves of several sailors were re-discovered on Beechy Island, which is just off the SW tip of Devon Island, by a team from the University of Alberta. One grave was opened for forensic examination. By an astonishing co-incidence, the scientist flown in to supervise the operation was a direct descendent of the sailor.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,Dunc McF (cookieless)
Date: 19 May 10 - 01:01 PM

BBP,
The chorus (that we tack on to our version of LF),
is from Stan R's song 'North West Passage'.
It gives our version a big 'grandiose' finish..... we say!

Of course you like it 'best' BBP - you're our most devoted fan!
- bless ya!

Oddly enough, I've only recently sent a copy to a lady in Canada who
asked to use our version at some meeting/conference/talk that she's
attending/prersenting over there ( sometime soon) which is all about NWP/Franklin.
Now this thread unearth's the Beeb are doing summat too - is it Franklin 'season'?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,Dunc again...
Date: 19 May 10 - 01:17 PM

Just checked...
All 7 mins of our version still on our band myspace
...if anyone fancies the trip!
click here to find the NW passage! ;0)

Cheers - Dunc McF

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 May 10 - 01:58 PM

Hmm, thought I posted it before, but I guess it didn't stick: no online access to the program for those on the left side of the pond. :-(

~ Becky in Long Beach (left of the Atlantic Pond, that is...)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 May 10 - 02:00 PM

Oops... wrong thread! It was the Trafalgar Surgeon TV show that I couldn't get online. Usually radio does better than TV for international access. Hope this one comes through.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 20 May 10 - 02:43 AM

Franklin season?. Please, don't shoot the poor soul as well!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 20 May 10 - 02:58 AM

Is ther a song about John Rae, though?

IMO much more "gallant" (and competent!) than Franklin, and hounded into obscurity and penury by Lady Franklin and her supporters for daring to present in a report the evidence he'd found that some of Franklin's party resorted to cannibalism at the end.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,keith A o Hertford
Date: 20 May 10 - 05:49 AM

Thanks for spotting the programme Rain Dog.
Jeff B, I expect that you know of the tune being shared with McCafferty, (McCaffrey etc.)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: JeffB
Date: 20 May 10 - 11:52 AM

Keith A,

Oh yes, so it does! Thanks - stupid of me not to have made the connection.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 May 10 - 01:25 PM

Followed the BBC link and found a major error of fact: The story says that the ships were lost with all hands. they were actually abandoned although the crew did die on the trek to seek help. As cited, it was from various causes, including poinoning and human action.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: greg stephens
Date: 20 May 10 - 03:18 PM

Excellent programme. Things are looking up in folk broadcasting: two recent progs(this and the shanty TV thing the other day) completely failed to cause me to throw things at the screen and curse grumpily. Which is what nornmmally happens when I hear folk broadcasts.
Well done Julian. And well done Martin Carthy for singing the song so magnificently to start with, which set the ball rolling.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: gnu
Date: 20 May 10 - 03:23 PM

Stan.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,Gloria
Date: 20 May 10 - 04:35 PM

One of my most prized possessions is an actual letter written by Sir John Franklin in 1844,to another adventurer,Parry,the year before he sailed on his last expedition.
The song gets it wrong - he wasnt a lord.It was a broadside ballad of course,whose verbosity was pared down through the traditional process, until it became the simple but sublime song we know now.
Even though no-one could accuse him of being a singer, I like John Renbourn's version of the song, that he used to do with Pentangle.you dont really need a good voice to sing this song well - you need something else.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 May 10 - 05:09 PM

OT but does anyone know much about Tom Crean of Shakelton expedition. Might be part of my family tree. mg

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 20 May 10 - 06:15 PM

I've just listened on BBC iPlayer. At one point there is a comment on how the perspective in the song changes, the first verse being from the point of view of a sailor swinging in his hammock, and the last verse from that of Lady Franklin.

Cyril Tawney had a version (I don't know where from) with the second verse forming a link:
And as we neared old England's shore
I saw a lady in deep deplore.
She wept aloud, and she seemed to say
"Alas, my Franklin is long away".

Richard

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,seaJane
Date: 20 May 10 - 06:41 PM

Guest - masses of stuff on Tom Crean in the National Maritime Museum
click here

Dammit. Missed the programme though I noticed it earlier in the week. Was cataloguing a whole batch of reports on the expeditions to search for Franklin not so long ago.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 21 May 10 - 02:41 AM

A gem of an interlude.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Gutcher
Date: 21 May 10 - 06:22 AM

To get a real insight into the character of Franklin & Lady F.
I would recommend that you should read a book called "The Fatal
Shore".

JOHN RAE an Artic Explorer,who in a period of some 18years never
lost a man, was blackballed & vilified by the London Establishment
for telling the truth, a truth that they could not bear to hear.
This appears to be a character flaw in the race even unto this day.

I was just telling Jeff Warner last weekend how JOHN PAUL JONES
received the same treatment, at an earlier date, for having the
temerity to beat them at their own,much vaunted, game.

My friend, the late Dr,Jerry Crean,nephew of Tom Crean used to tell of his uncles exploits during his 3 voyages to the Antartic.He also mentioned that Tom was prepared for a 4th. voyage when his new wife put her foot down & refused to let him go.
Jerry was 17 when his uncle died.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 21 May 10 - 07:38 AM

I would also recommend the very readable "Barrow's Boys" by Fergus Fleming which covers in considerable detail the whole North-west passage episode from 1816-1850(ish)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:24 PM

FWIW my version culled from various sources including broadsides.
Usual McCafferty tune accompanying self on Anglo
Lady Franklin's Lament

Twas homeward bound one night on the deep
Swinging in my hammock I fell asleep,
I dreamed a dream and I thought it true,
concerning Franklin and his gallant crew.

I dreamed we neared the Humber shore,
I heard a maiden who did deplore,
She cried aloud and semed to say
Alas 'Alas my husband he is long away.

Long time it is since he left the shore,
To cross the ocean where the billows roar
To seek a passage around the pole,
Where these poor seamen do seldom go.

With a hundred seamen he sailed away,
To cross the ocean in the month of May,
Where the Eskimo in his skin canoe,
was the only one that ever came through.

In Baffin Bay where the whalefish blow,
The fate of franklin no man may know,
The fate of Franklin no tongue can tell,
Lord Franklin along with his sailors do dwell.

There's Captain Thompson from Scarborough town,
Brave Griffin and Parry of great renown,
There's Captain Ross and so many more,
Have long been searching the Arctic shore.

And now my burden it gives me pain,
For my longlost Franklin I'd cross the main,
ten-thousand pounds would I freely give
To know on earth that my Franklin do live.'

(Sometimes repeat first v)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 21 May 10 - 04:27 PM

Re John Rae, Orcadian doctor and explorer, who went out to try and find what had happened to Franklin: his effigy lies in St Magnus Cathedral, Kirkwall, Orkney. His life story has been chronicled by Ken McGoogan in his book "Fatal Passage", and unfortunately John Rae was totally discredited by Queen Victoria's government for daring to suggest that Franklin's party had had to resort to cannibalism - based on evidence brought to Rae by his Inuit co-explorers.
And Rob Naylor there IS a fabulous song about John Rae, written by Edinburgh songwriter, Gill Bowman.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Genie
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:13 PM

Yet another take on "The Franklin Expedition" - adapted by our own Micca Patterson for the 2010 FSGW Getaway (since most of the audience wouldn't "get" the references to various and sundry places in the UK).

Micca at Getaway - The Franklin Expedition


Do I understand, correctly, that the writer of the original (trad.) song is unknown?

Genie

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:17 PM

From next week, BBC2 will be repeating "Due South" which features the Stan Rodgers song in the final episode (hopefully without some idiotic announcer chattering over it like they used to do on ITV3)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Noreen
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:33 PM

Genie, see this thread for the Les Barker lyrics which Micca adapted for his performance:

Lyr Req: Lord Franklin parody

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Nick
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:41 PM

Steve

Never heard anyone sing the "Captain Thompson" verse - is it widely done

I came to it from John Renbourn/Pentangle

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 09:10 PM

Lyr. Add: Lady Franklin's Lament for Her Husband
Broadside ballad, Murray Coll., Glasgow; 19th C., 2nd half

You seamen bold, that have oft withstood,
Wild storms of Neptune's briny flood,
Attend to these few lines which I now will name,
And put you in mind of a sailor's dream.
2
As homeward bound, one night on the deep,
Slung in my hammock, I fell fast asleep;
I dream't a dream which I thought was true,
Concerning Franklin and his brave crew.
3
I thought as we near'd to the Humber shore,
I heard a female that did deplore;
She wept aloud,and seem'd to say,
Alas! my Franklin is long away.
4
Her mind it seem'd in sad distress,
She cried aloud, I can take no rest;
Ten thousand pounds, I would freely give,
To say on earth that my husband lives.
5
Long time it is since two ships of fame,
SDid bear my husband across the main,
With 100 seamen with courage stout,
To find a North Western pasage out.
6
With 100 seamen with hearts so bold,
I fear have perish'd with frost and cold;
Alas! she cried all my life I'll mourn,
Since Franklin seems never to return.
7
For since that time seven years are past,
And many a keen and bitter blast,
Blows o'er the grave where the poor seamen fell,
Whose dreadful sufferings no tongue can tell.
8
To find a passage by the North Pole,
Where temperate wave and wild thunders roll,
Is more than any mortal man can do,
With hearts undaunted and courage true.
9
There's Captain Austin of Scarboro' town,
Brave Granville and Penny of much renoun,
With Captain Ross, and so many more,
Have long been searching the Arctic shore.
10
They sailed east, and they sailed west,
Round Greenland's coast they knew the best,
In hardships drear they have vainly strove,
On mountains of ice their ships were drove.
11
At Baffin's Bay where the whale fish blows,
The fate of Franklin nobody knows,
Which cause many a wife and child to mourn,
In grievous sorrow for their return.
12
These sad forbodings they give me pain,
For the long lost Franklin across the main;
Likewise the fate of so many before,
Who have left their homes to return no more.

Anon., probably written for a a shilling for a broadside publisher.
(The 1851 date mentioned above, in MS., is on another song pasted to the same sheet, and probably does not pertain to the Franklin verse).

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 09:22 PM

Next year, regular shipping by Russian ships probably will be passing through the Northwest Passage. Nuclear power stations are being built by the Russians for the exploration of the Arctic Ocean's supposed rich oil and gas deposits; they will be floated into Arctic waters and fixed at needed positions.

It seems pretty well-established that Franklin and the last of his men perished from lead solder in the food cans they carried with them. (See above). Franklin's body has not yet been found, but crewmen exhumed from the icy graves show strong evidence of lead poisoning.

Franklin was knighted for earlier exploits, thus Sir John, but he was not a hereditary lord.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Effsee
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 10:58 PM

..."Nuclear power stations are being built by the Russians for the exploration of the Arctic Ocean's supposed rich oil and gas deposits; they will be floated into Arctic waters and fixed at needed positions.
"...

Please do elaborate on this statement!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:00 AM

Never heard anyone sing the "Captain Thompson" verse - is it widely done?


That verse occurs in some broadside versions, identifying some of the skippers involved in the various search expeditions. The only recording I've heard which includes it is by Paul Clayton.

The names vary, inevitably. My own version is:

"There's Captain Osborne of Scarborough town
Brave Parry and Winslow of high renown
There's Captain Ross and so many more
In vain they've searched round the Arctic shore"

I seem to remember that "Winslow" should actually be "Ounslow".

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 08:13 AM

yes guest above ,i have that version too, plus the verse
god help the widows who sorely weep
for the loss of husbands drowned at sea.
they left their homes like many more
to die alone on a far distant shore

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 03:56 PM

Nick,
My version is a mishmash based on all the versions I've heard over the years but the searchers verse probably came direct from a broadside. Yes I'm sure Q is right that it was written for a shilling by a printer's hack.

Franklin was originally, as a young man, a landbased explorer in Canada and went through great deprivations on expeditions to the north. I have several contemporary books on these early expeditions and the later sea-based ones, and indeed some of the books written on the searches. I seem to remember he was also as a boy present at the Battle of Copenhagen.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:12 PM

Effsee, the BBC news (on cable here, Calgary), carried pictures of the power plants being built, and of the large Russian icebreaker that went through the Passage this summer.
Also briefly mentioned was the research being done by the Norwegians prior to exploration of their portion of the Arctic Ocean.

See article and video of "Arctic Trail blazers make history," about Russian icebreaker leading two German freighters through the NW Passage.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8264345.stm

The article doesn't mention the power stations. I will look at the video in a few minutes to see if they are mentioned there.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:24 PM

Found the article and video on the floating nuclear power stations for the Arctic-

Floating Arctic Nuclear Stations

Should Canadians be afraid they will be left out and ignored?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Effsee
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:52 PM

My God Q! The people who gave us Cherbobyl are gonna float these in the Arctic...thanks for the links (I think).

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: michaelr
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 07:36 PM

This novel may be of interest... it's long but weirdly fascinating.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 10:13 PM

The novel by Simmons is fantasy, but it is interesting in parts. At 769 pages, it is way too long.
I paged through it, reading parts, but fantasy is not my cup of tea.
See NY Times Book Review, "Ice Men," by Terrence Rafferty, March 18, 2007.

A book that held my interest is Lady Franklin's Revenge, by Ken McGoogan. The title is an exaggeration, but this bit from the dust jacket gives an idea of what this factual book is about-

"When her husband, Sir John Franklin, disappeared into the Arctic in 1845, in a misguided attempt to discover the final link in the Northwest Passage, she orchestrated an unprecedented twelve-year search. Though she failed to rescue Franklin, she contributed more to the discovery of the North than any celebrated explorer, and turned failure into triumph by creating a legend that has survived to this day."

Too little known, Lady Franklin was the greatest woman traveler of her time. Her extensive diaries disclose much about the British Empire in the 19th century.
She circumnavigated the globe, sailed up the Nile, and covered part of the Middle East by donkey. Australia, Van Dieman's Land, South Pacific, Hawai'i, etc., etc. A fascinating, if frustrating, woman.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:25 AM

His daughter was not at all happy that Lady F squandered the family fortune in her futile searches.
Ten thousand pounds she would not have freely given.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 04:31 AM

Keith A

The "wicked stepmother" syndrome, in this case. Once Franklin was officially dead, his late first wife's fortune would pass to his daughter... IIRC, her husband was particularly cross!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:03 AM

Only the great white polar bear knows where Lord Franklin's bones lie.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:38 AM

For the benefit of our American Cousins ;

       British Peers (Lords) in order of precedence ;

       1) Duke (as in Duke of Edinburgh); Female, Duchess
      
         2) Marquis ( as in Marquis of Bath ) ; Female, Marchioness

         3) Earl (as in Earl of Wessex) ; Female, Countess.

          4) Viscount (as in Viscount Cowdray ) ;Female,Viscountess
      
          5) Baron ( as in Baron Harkonnen !) ; Female, Baroness

            These are all "Lords & Ladies", if you will.In practice,these terms are more often used semi-informally ; I grew up in the household of Viscount Cowdray, but he was always known just as "Lord Cowdray". Below these are Baronets, minor Provincial Peers,created to rule Ulster,Nova Scotia,etc, who are NOT entitled to be called "Lord", oddly ! Example ; Sir John Smith,Bart. (the abbreviation for "Baronet").Wife, Lady Smith.
      Last we have the Knights ; Sir John Franklin, Kt. ( Abbr for Knight).Wife, Lady Franklin.
    Bob Geldof ,Kt, holds an HONORARY Knighthood, and,being Irish,is NOT entitled to be addressed as "Sir Bob", under ANY circumstances. Sir John Franklin was merely (!!) a Knight, NOT a Lord.
   Hope that clarifies things !
                   The Duke of Earl.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:46 AM

Oh yes, and just to confuse things, it is quite possible for someone to hold different titles in different ranks, for example ;

The Heir to the British Throne, Prince Charles, is also ;
      Prince of Wales

       Duke of Cornwall

       Duke of Sutherland

         Earl of Carrick

          Earl of Chester

          Baron Renfrew

                  Lord Of The Isles

            Great Steward Of Scotland

       which means that technically, Camilla is a double Duchess, a double Countess, and a Baroness ; how greedy can you get ?? !!      
          Baron Hardon

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:54 AM

Sorry Bubblyrat - there is no title of 'Marquis' in the UK - it's 'Marquess', as in the Marquess of Bath.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 12:45 PM

While I'm at it......Baronets are not peers - they have never been able to sit in the House of Peers (Lords). They are hereditary knights, i.e. when they die their eldest son takes on the 'Sir' title. With 'ordinary' knights like Cliff Richard, the title dies with them. One of Mrs Thatcher's more clever tricks was to resurrect baronetcies and give one to her husband, thus her son is now Sir Mark Thatcher, second baronet.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM

Yes Terry....as I said,they (Baronets) are not entitled to be called Lord, since they cannot sit in the house of Lords (which is what I should have added !). But they WERE created to be "Peers" of a kind,in order to provide a "ruling class" for some Provinces .The word "Baronet" is,I believe,possibly a corruption of "Banneret",but then you'd know better than I , obviously.
                   As to Marquis or Marquess, I don't think it REALLY matters that much,does it ??

             The Dook of Oil (as they say in Chicago)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Les from Hull
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 10:38 AM

Even more confusing - the Queen is the Duke of Lancaster (not Duchess)!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 12:27 PM

And as far as the Channel Islands are concerned, she's the Duke of Normandy.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 05:20 AM

I was feeling slightly guilty about the thread drift here, but then realised that there's a basic error in the song that justifies the discussion on titles - Franklin was not a Lord, only a knight. His wife was Lady Franklin, of course, but that was simply a courtesy title.

I reviewed a couple of Canadian books on Franklin a year or two ago - Martyn Beardsley's 'Deadly Winter: the Life of Sir John Franklin' and John Wilson's 'John Franklin: Traveller on Undiscovered Seas.' Both are pretty good, with the Beardsley one being the more scholarly.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:28 AM

to be concerned about whether he was a lord or not surely misses the whole point of the song?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 06:41 AM

Terry, nowhere in the song is he called Lord Franklin.

(He is in Les Barker's version, but that's different!)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 07:02 AM

Noreen - see Steve Gardham's post of 21 May.

Dick - historical accuracy.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 07:33 AM

OK- accepted.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Artful Codger
Date: 16 Oct 10 - 04:16 PM

@ Charlie Noble: Actually, we have a pretty good idea of where Sir Franklin's bones lie--he was one of the first fatalities once they reached the island proper (their ship was trapped in the ice some miles off the tip). This according to an entry (the last recorded?) by one of the crew, scrawled around the margins of some official form. Inuits also told Rae (I believe) about the death of a "fat man"; Franklin had grown quite corpulent by his 60's.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Oct 10 - 03:36 PM

I don't think broadside hacks were too worried about degrees of peerage. To them, if she was a 'Lady' then he must have been a 'Lord'.
I couldn't tell you who was or wasn't myself and I'm not sure I really care anyway. In ballads the knobs are nearly always lords anyway.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 10:21 AM

Some new research on the loss here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14847091

Did the lead come from the ship as well as or instead of the food tins?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GloriaJ
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 10:50 AM

I used to sing this song occasionally, and told a friend how this song made a powerful impression on me when I knew little about folk music.This was the John Renbourne/Pentangle version that I heard them do live, at maybe the first live gig I ever went to.Renbourne's not a great singer, but he brought out something powerful and moving in the song.
Anyway, this friend is a book and manuscript collector, mainly concerned with 19th century alpine mountaineering, but she presented me with an actual letter of Sir John Franklin, written in 1844 just before his fatal expedition.Its written to another explorer, Sir William Parry, but Franklin simply signs it "yours very faithfully, John Franklin" and doesnt use his title. It feels a privilege to own a unique document like that.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 11:15 AM

The NY Times had an editorial today, Search for the Searchers, with this final paragraph:

"The ships will almost certainly be found one day, in part because the technology for underwater exploration has become very sophisticated. But the real difference is this: The ice that has hidden the bones of Franklin's ships and made the Northwest Passage impenetrable for centuries withdraws a little farther each summer. Had Franklin set out to find the Northwest Passage as it exists in 2011, he might well have found it and returned home to live to a ripe old age."

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: JeffB
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 11:39 AM

Keith A - I imagine the lead food tins would have been the much greater risk, as the food in them was a small volume completely surrounded by lead for many months. BTW, although they had tins of food, they didn't have tin-openers, which weren't invented until 1858.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 12:02 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT6L8c2U35s here is the song, there are acouple of extra verses naming the different captains , ross wilmslow , parry, there is another verse that is sometimes sung about good help the widows.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 12:02 PM

god help the widows, not good

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 02:25 PM

Beechey Island was where the Franklin Expedition over-wintered. The four graves were opened and the bodies examined in 1981, along with the adjoining rubbish tip.
The lead came from the food tins. The seams were simply butt-soldered, and not always very well at that (Quality control was unheard of) with the result that the seams were not always air-tight and that, in addition, the solder tended to be 'blobby' in places. The result was that many of the tins contained food that was not only polluted with lead but rotting as well.
Source:Owen Beattie & John Geiger,'Frozen in Time:The fate of the Franklin Expedition' Bloomsbury Publishing Ltd., London 1987.

There is also a novel built around Sir John Franklin, written by Sten Nadolny. I don't know whether there is an english translation, but the original title is 'Die Entdeckung der Langsamkeit'.

'Arctic Dreams', Barry Lopez,Bantam Books 1987 also has some interesting comments about the failure/failings of the Franklin Expedition.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 09 Sep 11 - 08:48 PM

Franklin's Ghost blog

Arctic exploration and the search for the Northwest Passage has in many ways defined an essential part of the Canadian identity. The search for the lost Franklin Expedition in particular plays a significant role in defining Canada, both from mapping the mysterious frozen lands to interactions between Europeans and the ancient native cultures of the North to the symbolic and even mythic importance of the North to Canadian sovereignty and identity. As interest in finding the elusive answers and missing ships grows over 150 years after the expedition first set out, Sir John Franklin's ghost haunts us still.

This site is a catalog of the readings, thoughts and speculations of one amateur Canadian historian, as well as links to related materials and websites as the mystery continues to capitivate many to this day.


About Me
Ted Betts practices corporate law at a major Canadian law firm in Toronto. He obtained his BA and Master's in History from Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario with a focus on Canadian history (thesis: The Argument of the Century: The Ontario Press Coverage of the Scopes Trial and the Death of William Jennings Bryan). While he practices law and raises a family, he has remained a steadfast reader of history, particularly Canadian political and cultural history. Arctic exploration and the Franklin Expedition has over the years grown from an interest to a passion and now borders on being an obsession.

==========

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew
From: GUEST,Don Wise
Date: 10 Sep 11 - 07:39 AM

Slight mistake:- the tins had simple overlapping seams rather than butt seams. Even so, the soldering was still generally shoddy.

Be that all as it may, 'Lord Franklin' is one of my favourite songs.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 12:58 PM

New York Times environment/science writer and musician Andrew Revkin has a post about the song and the changes in the arctic on his "Dot Earth" blog: A Warm Update to a Chilly Arctic Ballad, and he says there will be an item on NPR sometime today.

He says,

Earlier this month, I tuned in to NPR while driving somewhere and caught one of the "winter songs" that are a focus on All Things Considered in this chilly season. As it happened, just a couple of days earlier I'd popped over to the studio of David Rothenberg, the musician and author of books on whales, birds and evolution, to record a new take on the 19th century ballad "Lord Franklin."
...
In our new take on the song, David added whale-ish notes on his bass clarinet along with samples of the crackle and shoosh of floating sea ice and we added two new verses taking the story from the ice-locked end of the little ice age to this era of warming, melting and opening seaways.
...
I've been singing this tune pretty much since I started getting serious about guitar in college. I had a particular interest in British ballads through the music of Pentangle, Martin Carthy and others (the links go to their versions of the Franklin ballad).
...

These are his added verses:

Two hundred years since his ship went down
The ocean rises over Franklin's ground.
The planet warms, ice melts away.
The Northwest Passage flows clear as day.

Ships and whales now pass by the pole.
Soon mighty trees will grow in Arctic soil.
Warming winds thaw frozen ground.
Soon polar bears may go where Franklin's bound.

In addition to the NPR performance, the blog post includes a short video of Revkin (sans guitar) singing the song while tentbound in the arctic in 2003.

He also says,

"You can hear the song on Soundcloud or my Myspace page. You can buy it here [from cdbaby] (we're donating all proceeds to the fund for the University of the Arctic). "

There's more to read at the blog post (my link at the top). The item hasn't shown up yet at NPR; I'll post the link when there is one.

This song has been a favorite of mine in connection with my own arctic wanderings and dreams, long ago.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Tootlin Geoff
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 01:21 PM

Shoddy soldering & leaking tins tends to lead to botulism.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 01:58 PM

Lest it hasn't been mentioned, it was anthropologists from the University of Alberta who made the discovery in 1981-2.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 02:08 PM

In the context of a subsequent post, about science blogging, Andrew Revkin says this:

For example, I greatly value the array of insights prompted by my post yesterday on the misadventures of the Arctic explorer John Franklin and the new version of the 19th-century ballad on his failed final expedition that I created with David Rothenberg. (You can hear me talk about the song sometime soon on NPR's "All Things Considered." A partial transcript is already online.]

In a two-part comment, David Stoney of McClellanville, S.C., offers a fascinating look at how Franklin's disappearance was related to the profound lack of understanding of the Arctic Ocean and surrounding waters at the time. His post includes references to the amazing burst of knowledge that came from Elisha Kent Kane, an American naval officer who set out in search of Franklin's crew, with his own craft trapped in ice for nearly two years near the west coast of Greenland. Observations he made later helped bolster the deeply contested theory of ice ages proposed by Louis Agassiz.

Russell A. Potter, an English professor at Rhode Island College who was able to visit the gravesite of some of Franklin's crew, maintains a fantastic Web site on "The Fate of Franklin". On seeing my post, he offered a deeper look at the 19th-century illustration that I used, and his reflections on how changes in climate alter the course of human affairs.

    [T]he illustration of the "Graves of the Companions of Sir John Franklin," of which I have an original print, remains a bit of a puzzler: it appears to show nearly 16 graves, several with heavy stone monuments. It doesn't match with the three known graves on Beechey, with their simple wooden markers, nor with any other known gravesite of Franklin's men; I've always wondered whether it might be a mis-captioned image of some other set of memorials.

    The climate changes being visited on the Arctic are indeed tragic, but the loss is large, abstract, and difficult to grasp — one reason that the sad tale of the loss of Franklin and his 128 men has resonated through the ages, up to a point where the very forces which imprisoned them have now turned, topsy-turvy, to threaten us all not with a superabundance of ice, but its disappearance.

...

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Young Buchan
Date: 02 Jan 12 - 04:56 PM

Next time you're in London take a look at the Franklin Memorial. There are four columns listing the dead. There are (from memory) 2 columns of Officers, a column and a half of petty officers and half a column of actual sailors. No wonder it went pear shaped. Foive days into the ice they were probably still arguing about whether to have the Chablis or the Rioja with the Seal Cutlets!

(And yes I know that part of the reason there were so many officers is that some scientists were made officers so they didn't have to slum it with the ABs)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:44 AM

Tattie Bogle: And Rob Naylor there IS a fabulous song about John Rae, written by Edinburgh songwriter, Gill Bowman.

Do you know where I can find the lyrics/ music or an example of it being played/ sung?

I can find *references* to it on google, mainly re one of Gill's Edinburgh Fringe performances but no actual example of lyrics, tune or performance, nor a CD or download for it.

Would love to learn it and sing it at sessions as a counterpoint to the frequently-performed "Concerning Franklin"!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 08:17 AM

Joseph René Bellot was a French Arctic explorer who joined the expedition under the command of Captain William Kennedy in search of Sir John Franklin.

While making a perilous journey in the Wellington Channel in 1853, he disappeared in an opening between the broken masses of ice in the Wellington Channel.

A granite memorial obelisk designed by Philip Hardwick was unveiled in 1855 on the Thames riverside in front of Greenwich Hospital; a nearby Greenwich street, Bellot Street SE10, also carries his name.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 09:12 AM

Sorry, "GUEST" 2 posts above is me with an evaporated cookie.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 10:31 AM

BBC Radio 4 2.15pm Thursday 12 January 2012

Afternoon Play; Erebus. Poetic drama exploring John Franklin's expedition to find the North West Passage in 1845.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Jan 12 - 06:00 PM

Hi Rob N, I've also done a search of Gill Bowman's discography and Youtubes and can't find a recording of the John Rae song. I'll ask her next time I see her!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:31 PM

There is now a suggestion that they were all suffering from lead poisoning to some degree or other , caused by the piping aboard their vessels , which had been specially outfitted with a crude form of "central heating" and such luxuries as baths ( probably officers only !) ; the drinking water would have been piped using the same system (lead pipe based). This,apparently , now accounts for the irrational decisions and bizarre behaviour of the survivors when faced with their predicament ; for example, setting off on a trip across the ice carrying useless junk instead of aids to survival . The food containers probably just exacerbated an already deadly but unrealised complication.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 16 Jan 12 - 05:54 PM

Winter Songs: The Frozen Tale Of 'Lord Franklin' (referred to in my post of 29 Dec 2011, above) will air on NPR today.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 02:36 PM

just heard that one of Lord Franklin's ships has been found... not yet clear if Terror or Eribus... but great news for ship geeks like the hubby. link below:

http://tracking.canadiangeographic.ca/T/OFSYS/SM2/2/S/F/en-US/3616/11593593/KkEVN76H.html

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 02:40 PM

They've discovered a ship in the arctic seas! It seems to be either the Erebus or the Terror.

See http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/09/09/ship_from_lost_franklin_expedition for further details.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 02:41 PM

The Natl Geographic site will hopefully have more than just the text of a press release.

My dad was fascinated by this expedition, and I worked at a national park in the Puget Sound area where one of their claims to fame is that Lady Franklin passed through on her own expedition to learn more about her husband's fate. It's nice to know there is a break in the mystery after all of these years, I just wish my dad was around to share the news with!

SRS

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 03:12 PM

sciencegeek,
That's earth-shattering. Having read the account I am feeling very emotional. I have read lots of books on Franklin's various expeditions, some contemporary with events. I have watched the programmes on the exhumation of the bodies. I can't believe that they've found one of the ships and it seems to be almost intact as well. I'm going to sing the ballad at this weekend's Hull Folk Festival to celebrate the event, hopefully at the concert in the Maritime Museum.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 03:39 PM

yeah.. I feel much the same... a co worker got the news through the GIS chatroom & sent it around. I both emailed & called the hubby to let him know because he has been following Artic & Antarctic explorations since he was a kid. :)

I first heard Lady Franklin's lament on a Paul Clayton album my mom had back in the '60's. It being the 200th anniversary of the Star Spangled Banner this weekend, I will be singing that at our little fiddler's fair... but I think I'll also work on the Lament as well.

I've been reading a lot about the Resolute - one of the searchers- and 30 years ago Mike wrote a ballad about her. There's something about ships, dogs and horses that go to a person's heart.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 03:48 PM

I love this! Lots of great links are turning up on Twitter (Search Twitter for #FranklinExpedition) with links to companies designing search tools, to Canadian parks and various entities.

SRS

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 03:56 PM

talked with hubby by phone at lunchtime & according to Inuit tales, one ship sank and the other was crushed in the ice before going down eventually.

I think Mike has a bet with himself as to where the wreck was located... but he's keeping mum for now... probably because he can go on and on & I did need to get back to work... LOL

don't go on twitter, but hopefully the historic ship geek site will have a field day.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 04:20 PM

The Franklin search: Peter Mansbridge on why we should care

I'm an advisory board member — along with an astronaut, a research scientist, a philanthropist and a number of private businesspeople — for the non-profit Arctic Research Foundation. To be clear, it is a position for which I receive no money.

Some people have argued the whole search for Franklin is some kind of Conservative Party conspiracy — a pet project for Stephen Harper.

There's no doubt‎ the prime minister is into the mystery and would love to see it solved, but he's hardly the first PM to be interested.

In fact, his two predecessors, Paul Martin and Jean Chrétien, also signed off on government-sponsored searches for the long-lost ships of the expedition, although on a much smaller scale.

A snippet from the article.

Also: Interesting information about song versions.

SRS

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 04:34 PM

On gCaptain:Canada Finds Historic Franklin Expedition Wreck.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Felipa
Date: 09 Sep 14 - 05:54 PM

9 Sept 2014 http://news.uk.msn.com/world/explorer-ship-lost-in-arctic-found

"One of two British explorer ships that disappeared in the Arctic more than 160 years ago has been found, Canada's prime minister has announced.

"Canada announced it would search again for British Arctic explorer Sir John Franklin's ships in 2008.

"The HMS Erebus and HMS Terror were last seen in the late 1840s.

"Prime Minister Stephen Harper said it remains unclear which ship has been found but images show there is enough information to confirm it is one of the pair.

"Franklin and 128 hand-picked officers and men vanished on an expedition begun in 1845 to find the fabled Northwest Passage.

"His disappearance prompted one of history's largest rescue searches, from 1848 to 1859, which resulted in the passage's discovery.

The route runs from the Atlantic to the Pacific through the Arctic archipelago."

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Felipa
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 01:13 PM

video http://video.uk.msn.com/watch/video/wreck-of-doomed-franklin-expedition-ship-discovered/2gie3ats

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: bubblyrat
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 02:08 PM

In Britain, in today's "Times" newspaper, is an article about Sir John Franklin and his ill-fated expedition .It mentions both the food cans AND the ships'water-pipes as being the (possible) cause of the "poisoning " of the crew members . The word "Lord" ,as in the frequent erroneous allusion to Sir John, does not appear. QED.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 04:54 PM

This was an expensive discovery dear to the heart of Stephen Harper! As one footing some of the tax bill I am less than greatly enthused! Stan Roger's "Northwest Passage" was a far better song, as well, and it should have a DT link above.
Even though it is in Canada's waters and the discovery was at Canadian expense I am told that Britain still holds ownership of the wreck.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 06:14 PM

As a very grateful Brit, I thank you for your generosity, Sandy!

We sent you a famous steam train and recently borrowed it back. We sent you a discovery ship, can we borrow that back, please?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 06:45 PM

Northwest Passage, by Stan Rogers.

Sandy, the problem is that a song or thread can belong to only one group, and Stan's song appears to belong to a group of "northwest passage" songs & threads. I like it better, too.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 07:57 PM

the fate of Franklin, no man can tell

but watch this space...!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,cptsnapper
Date: 10 Sep 14 - 10:33 PM

In yesterday's I there was an article saying that one of Franklin's boats has been identified underwater off King William Island although it doesn't give it's name.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 12:51 AM

A good read is the novel "The Terror" by Dan Simmons, which imagines in excrutiating detail the travails Franklin and his gallant crew underwent after abandoning their icebound ships to find a way home overland. There is also a somewhat silly supernatural side story to the book, but it's easily ignored if you don't go in for that sort of thing. It's a good read.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: meself
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 11:16 AM

Seems the local Inuit knew the ship was there ever since it went down: of course, I wouldn't want to rain on Harper's parade.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 01:24 PM

Quibbles-
Sir John Franklin was not a "lord." At the time he was captain, but as commander of the expedition, he could be considered an acting admiral; he was promoted to Rear Admiral posthumously.

It has been previously reported that the Inuit knew the location, but the story has now been verified. The Inuit reported the fate of the ships to Dr. John Rae in 1854.
The article referenced by meself is largely an anti-Harper diatribe. Harper is pushing efforts to develop the Canadian Arctic and cement "sovereignty" over the Northwest Passage. The Russians claim the North Pole and maintain the icebreaker Yamal in the Arctic waters and are perceived as a threat to Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic Islands.

The crew was 'hand-picked" (selected) by the Admiralty, not commander of the expedition, Franklin.

Simmons book may be a "good read," but it is fiction.

The ship was found by a Parks Canada vessel using a recently acquired underwater vehicle and sonar gear. Four search vessels were involved this summer; a Coast Guard ship, a Royal Canadian Navy vessel, and one each from the Arctic Research Foundation, and One Ocean. Parks Canada has been involved in five or six searches since 2008.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 02:56 PM

talking about the Franklin Expedition last night & Mike goes, "Well there were 5 who survived."
Knowing I was being set up, I responded.. oh yeah.. the ones who didn't go?.
"No, they went, they just got sent/left at Greenland. Bet they were disappointed to be left out." Men...

neat site about songs that came out of the tragedy.
http://www.kzfr.org/broadcasts/view/389

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 11 Sep 14 - 03:22 PM

OT but does anyone know much about Tom Crean of Shakelton expedition. Might be part of my family tree. mg

I missed this before... Mike has been obsessed with the subject since high school... that's why he often uses framheim or gjohaven for user IDs... lol

he can and will talk your ear off... lucky you are on the opposite coast :)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 11:27 AM

Regarding one of the search vessels sent out and later lost themselves:

On 10 September 1855, the abandoned Resolute was found adrift by the American whaler George Henry, captained by James Buddington of Groton, Connecticut in an ice flow off Cape Walsingham of Baffin Island, some 1,200 miles (1,900 km) from where she had been abandoned.

The US Congress voted funds to have her refitted and in December 1856 she was sailed back to England and presented to Queen Victoria...

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 16 Sep 14 - 01:02 PM

Interesting that some here have referenced Stan Rogers' Northwest Passage as if it were relevant! Although the song mentions Franklin, it is actually about a modern person driving (a car or truck?) across Canada and not about the Franklin Expedition and tragedy per se.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: JHW
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 07:35 PM

Canada confirms ship as Erebus

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: meself
Date: 02 Oct 14 - 09:08 PM

"Although the song mentions Franklin, it is actually about a modern person driving (a car or truck?) across Canada and not about the Franklin Expedition and tragedy per se."

Yes, but that modern person driving along the highway to his next gig likens himself to "Brave Franklin, MacKenzie, and the rest .... " (Isn't that how the line goes?)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 03:42 AM

Think the line actually is:

"And through the night, behind the wheel, the mileage clicking west
I think upon Mackenzie, David Thompson and the rest
Who cracked the mountain ramparts and it did show a path for me
To race the roaring Fraser to the sea.

Amazed at the location of the ship and how far they had actually travelled - a great deal further on than Baffin Bay mentioned in the song "Lord Franklin" or "Lady Franklin's Lament" - although that could have been due to natural drifting of a raft of ice holding the ship:

"In Baffin Bay where the whale-fish blow
The fate of Franklin no man may know.
The fate of Franklin no tongue can tell
Where Franklin along with his sailors do dwell"

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 03:52 AM

The one reference to Franklin is actually in the chorus: "To find the hand of Franklin reaching for the Beaufort Sea". The song also references several other explorers: Kelso, Mackenzie, and David Thompson.

A slight connection, whereas Lady Franklin's lament and similar are actually about Franklin and the tragedy.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: JHW
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 04:51 AM

A shipwreck uncovered beneath the icy wastes of northern Canada has been identified as long-lost HMS Erebus.

The Victorian-era vessel became part of nautical folklore after it vanished in the mid-19th Century.

Its captain, Sir John Franklin, had been searching for the fabled Northwest Passage.

Experts confirmed that the wreck, discovered last month, was indeed the celebrated Royal Navy vessel.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: meself
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 11:59 AM

Apologies for belabouring the side-business of the song, but .... "Kelso" is Stan's creation, as far as I can see - presumably it's an odd rendering of "Kelsey". And to explain my observation that he "likens himself" to the iconic explorers of what became Canada: "How then am I so different from the first men through this way?" (I don't think he's talking about the Aboriginals. Not to say that they didn't have their explorers, too ...).

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: WindhoverWeaver
Date: 03 Oct 14 - 12:13 PM

meself, I think you are right that Stan "made up" the name Kelso: I found this online "Stan Rogers discussed the process of writing Northwest Passage in a radio interview in 1982 and admitted that he had been unsure of Kelsey's name and had guessed Kelso while recording the song." (http://http://www.sea-of-flowers.ca/weblog/sea/archives/2004/04/brave_kelso.php)

Let me just add that I love both Stan's song and Lady Franklin's Lament, and often do both.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 05:00 PM

Hi folks- just listened to a Maine version of Franklin in the Helen Hartness Flanders collection, sung by Will Merritt Ludlow Maine 1941. Still deciphering the lyrics, but it has the captain's named as well as the intro verse similar to the broadside from Glasgow transcribed above by Q on 12 Oct 2010.   

Would love to know more about that source- Merritt learned the song from his mother who was from Scotland.

Have also found a similar version posted by a Czech C&W band... ? Will pass on info if they respond to my query

best- Julia

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 05:14 PM

Any more news of the Erebus?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Skivee, guesting in
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 05:16 PM

That sounds marvelous, Julia L. Please do pass along the info.
Craig

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 07:08 PM

The brass bell from the HMS Erebus was unveiled in Ottawa on Wednesday.

Erebus bell

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Julia L
Date: 19 Nov 14 - 11:04 PM

It seems there are two basic manifestations of this ballad. The one we generally hear seems to originate in a broadside that may have been penned and circulated by Lady Franklin herself. These are the "Sailor's Dream" type. There is one in a different meter that describes the voyage in detail, including encounters with the doubtful esquimaux and lines like

"What hope can scale this icy wall,
High over the main flag staff?
Above the ridges wolf and bear
Look down with patient, settled stare
Look down on us and laugh"

"A Ballad of Sir John Franklin," from  Sartain's Magazine, May 1850
by George Boker
http://www.ric.edu/faculty/rpotter/sartain.html

Another source of odes was a poetry competition sponsored by the British Association which yielded a variety of epics.
en.citizendium.org/wiki/John_Franklin

Among the entries was this by Algernon Swinburne.Though it did not win, it is generally thought to be the best of the lot by today's standards
http://www.ric.edu/faculty/rpotter/swin.html

Another is "The Life The Character and The Death of Sir John Franklin" by Edward Owen. Typically Victorian, these, needless to say, have never become songs that I know of.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 09:47 AM

I just watched the Channel 4 doc. "Hunt for the Arctic ghost ship."

It tells the story of the expedition and how Erebus was found.
They searched somewhere called "ship place" in Inuit oral tradition and quickly found it using sonar.

There is film of the well preserved wreck including interior shots.

It was a hundred miles further South than had been believed.
It means they reached a part of the passage that had been charted from the West, completing the mission.

The song was played over the end credits, but a trail was put over the beginning.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Aug 15 - 12:29 PM

'penned and circulated by Lady Franklin herself'.

Very doubtful. It has all the hallmarks of the broadside hack, and therefore very close to the folksong it became and that which we love.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 02:37 AM

I'd still love to be able to find the lyrics and tune to Gill Bowman's song about John Rae, as I'd still like to do it at sessions as a counterpoint to "Franklin". Rae's story definitely deserves a bit more exposure.

Tattie?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 03:02 AM

Hey, I found it!!!!

Version from Tiller's Folly:


Ballad Of John Rae

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 03:40 AM

That's a good song, Rob, but not Gill's! Note the credits at the bottom of the page in your link.

I have asked Gill again if she has recorded her John Rae song on any album, and wil let you know the answer. She did say she sang it again at her weekly session in Edinburgh kast week, but afraid I was away and missed it.

Lesley Riddoch wrote an excellent article criticising the Channel 4 programme for failing to mention John Rae, see:
John Rae

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 09 Aug 15 - 03:51 AM

You might also like to check out this song "The Orcadian" by Alan Reid (ex-Battlefield Band). Only a wee snatch, but maybe worth 99p for the download?

The Orcadian

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Aug 15 - 03:25 AM

Tattie,

Spent the 99p. Nice one!

Thanks for asking Gill for me. I'll be learning the other one too, once I can work out the chords.

Rae definitely deserves to be more well-known.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 11 Aug 15 - 09:38 AM

Tattie,

I'm now in direct contact with Gill. She has the song recorded on a CD and will send it to me! I emailed her via her agent and she got back to me very quickly.

That's just great.....her taking the time to get in touch with me and offering to post out a CD to me. Can't wait for it to get here!

Subject: LYR ADD - Lady Franklin's Lament For Her Husband
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 11 Aug 15 - 07:49 PM

Ozcatter Mark Gregory has posted 2 new Franklin songs/poems on his Australian Folk Songs website

Lady Franklin's Lament For Her Husband   Broadside ballad

You Seamen bold, that have long withstood
Wild storms of Neptune's briny flood.
Attend to these few lines which I now will name,
And put you in mind of a Sailor's dream.

As homeward bound one night on the deep,
Slung in my hammock I fell asleep,
I dreamt a dream which I thought was true,
Concerning Franklin and his brave crew.

I thought as we neared to the Humber shore,
I heard a female that did deplore,
She wept aloud and seemed to say,
Alas ! my Franklin is long away.

Her mind it seemed in sad distress,
She cried aloud I can take no rest,
Ten thousand pounds I would freely give,
To say on earth that my husband lives.

Long time it is since two ships of fame,
Did bear my husband across the main,
With one hundred seamen with courage stout,
To find a north-western passage out.

With one hundred seamen with hearts so bold,
fear have perished in frost and cold,
Alas, she cried, all my life mourn,
Since Franklin seems never to return.

For since that time seven years are past,
And many a keen and bitter blast,
Blows o'er the grave where poor seamen fell,
Whose dreadful sufferings no tongue can tell.

To find a passage by the North Pole,
Where tempests wave and wild thunders roll,
Is more than any mortal man can do,
With hearts undaunted and courage true.

There's Captain Austen of Scarboro town,
Brave Granville and Penny of much renown,
With Captain Ross and so many more,
Have long been searching the Arctic shore.

They sailed east and they sailed west,
Round Greenland's coast they knew the best,
In hardships drear they have vainly strove,
On mountains of ice their ships were drove.

At Baffin's Bay where the whale fish blows,
The fate of Franklin nobody knows.
Which causes many a wife and child to mourn,
In grievious sorrow for their retain.

These sad forebodings they give me pain,
For the long lost Franklin across the main,
Likewise the fate of so many before,
Who have left their homes to return no more.

Subject: LYR ADD- Lament On the Fate Of Sir J. Franklin And
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 11 Aug 15 - 07:53 PM

another broadside ballad from Mark Gregory's Australian Folk Songs site

Lament On the Fate Of Sir J. Franklin And His Crews

You tender christians I pray attend,
To these few lines that I have penn'd,
Of Sir John Franklin and his brave band,
Who've perished far from their native land.

Chorus

So listen now while I tell to you,
The fate of Franklin and his brave crew.

It's now fifteen years since he set sale,
With joyous hearts and a pleasant gale,
In frozen regions to cruise about
The north-west passage for to find out.

There was many sad and an aching heart,
As from their friends these brave men did part,
To plough their way o'er the raging main,
For fear they should ne'er return again.

When six dreary years they had been away,
Some other vessels without delay,
Were sent to search for the missing crews,
But, alas ! of them they could hear no news.

A gloomy mystery for nine long years,
Their wives and children has kept in tears,
In deepest anguish they did await,
The ship sent out to learn their fate.

Poor Lady Franklin in great despair,
In anguish wild she tore her hair,
Saying "Ten thousand pounds I'll give for news,
Of my loving Franklin and his brave crews."

The government in this present year,
Did pensions give to their families dear,
But Lady Franklin refused the grant,
Crying 'give me my husband, I no money want.'

At length sad tidings of this brave band,
Has reached the shores of their native land,
By which we hear they are all dead,
Tho' suffering much ere their souls had fled.

As through the frozen seas they pushed,
Their ships by blocks of ice were crushed,
And offering prayers for their babes and wives,
Many brave souls did lose their lives.

Forty poor creatures from a watery grave,
With one of the boats their lives did save,
And o'er the ice they now took their way,
To reach in safety famed Hudson Bay.

What horrid sufferings of pain and want,
These frozen regions no food did grant,
At length, oh horrid ! for want of meat,
Their dying comrades they had to eat.

How horrid was the sight when found,
Their limbs and bodies lay scattered round,
The flesh granw'd off from every bone,
Oh may their souls to heaven have gone.

Now for to finish and make an end,
May God their families from want defend,
And while their loss we sadly deplore,
We hope such horrors to hear no more.

Subject: LYR ADD- The Arctic Voyagers, Or Lady Franklin's L
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 11 Aug 15 - 08:10 PM

another post by Mark Gregory on his Australian Folksongs site

OCR typos corrected, except for one - I've emailed Mark about them.

The Arctic Voyagers, Or Lady Franklin's Lament For Her Husband (1853)


As near the beach I one morn did roam,
I met a fair lady ; who, all alone
In grief lamenting, cried pity me,
And send my sailor safe o'er the sea.
And as in sorrow she did bewail,      
She said from England my love did sail,
In health and vigour, with heart alive.
In Eighteen hundred and forty five.

Chorus.
She cried what troubles I have gone through
For noble Franklin and all his crew.

From me my darling, alas ! did stray,
To the frozen regions, in the month of May,
Three hearty cheers bid the ffoipa adieu,    ffopia?
With noble Franklin, and his brave crew.
Through storms and tempests, through frost and snow,
What they encountered no one does know.
Tell me ye mermaids, if in the deep
Brave Franklin with his sailors sleep.

Oh, no ! Oh, no ! that never be
They are far away, o'er the raging sea,
To ease my sorrow, my grief, and pain,
They must to England return again.
Oh ! heavenly father, who dwells on high,
Who beholds the mother and the orphan cry.
Thou alone, only him can save,
The British tars from the briny wave.

Oh, God, all dangers protect them through,
Guide noble Franklin and all his crew,
Who for seven years through the ice did roam,
Bring them safe again to their native home.
Oft on my pillow I with grief am tossed,
I think poor Franklin and all are lost,
But angels whisper, and say don't weep,
Your husband's safe on the briny deep.

Or, if Britannia could only view
The noble Franklin and his long-lost crew,
All safe and well to their homes arrive,
Happy and joyful, and all alive.
Return her thanks on her bended knees,
To Him who wafts them across the seas,
In glorious accents will raise her voice,
And all Great Britain will rejoice.

You pretty maidens come join with me,
And pray for them on the briny sea,
God will protect them while on the main,
And safe to England bring them again,
No pen can write, no tongue unfold,
What they endured in the piercing cold,
Oh, God on high listen to our prayers,
Our troubles ease and dry up our tears.

Dry up our sorrows and ease our pain,
And send brave Franklin back again.

NOTE - From the Tasmanian Newspaper the Hobarton Guardian, or, True Friend of Tasmania Saturday 15 October 1853 p.3.

Dave de Hugard writes:-
'The Hobarton Guardian' version of 'Lady Franklin's Lament of 1853 is certainly an early version of the song. For your interest I attach the following extract:

'...After serving (1836-43) as governor of Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania), Franklin was sent in search of the Northwest Passage in 1845. His ships, Erebus and Terror, were last seen in Baffin Bay on July 25 or 26, 1845.

When nothing was heard from the party, no fewer than 40 expeditions were sent to find him. In 1854, Dr John Rae of the Hudson's Bay Company found the first proof that Franklin's vessels had sunk. In 1859, Leopold McClintock, commanding Fox, a search vessel outfitted by Lady Franklin, discovered a cairn that revealed Sir John had died on June 11, 1847, in King William's Land and had, in fact, found the Northwest Passage. Further expeditions were sent to the Arctic, but they simply confirmed the earlier discoveries...'

This Hobart version (1853) precedes 'the first proof that Franklin's vessels had sunk (1854)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Bradfordian
Date: 12 Aug 15 - 08:00 PM

Hunt for the Arctic Ghost Ship Documentary-YouTube

bradfordian

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Sep 16 - 06:31 PM

Ship found in Arctic 168 years after doomed Northwest Passage attempt

Paul Watson in Vancouver
Monday 12 September 2016

The long-lost ship of British polar explorer Sir John Franklin, HMS Terror, has been found in pristine condition at the bottom of an Arctic bay, researchers have said, in a discovery that challenges the accepted history behind one of polar exploration's deepest mysteries.

HMS Terror and Franklin's flagship, HMS Erebus, were abandoned in heavy sea ice far to the north of the eventual wreck site in 1848, during the Royal Navy explorer's doomed attempt to complete the Northwest Passage.

All 129 men on the Franklin expedition died, in the worst disaster to hit Britain's Royal Navy in its long history of polar exploration. Search parties continued to look for the ships for 11 years after they disappeared, but found no trace, and the fate of the missing men remained an enigma that tantalised generations of historians, archaeologists and adventurers.

Now that mystery seems to have been solved by a combination of intrepid exploration – and an improbable tip from an Inuk crewmember.

On Sunday, a team from the charitable Arctic Research Foundation manoeuvred a small, remotely operated vehicle through an open hatch and into the ship to capture stunning images that give insight into life aboard the vessel close to 170 years ago.

more at the link.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Oct 16 - 07:05 PM

Sorry, it's been a long time coming, but glad that Rob Naylor managed to get his own copy of Gill Bowman's CD which includes her John Rae song. I'm posting the words below for anyone else who might be interested, with Gill's permission. The CD is called "Unsung Heroes" but is maybe not on general release now.

JOHN RAE                        Gillian Bowman

1. In the year of Our Lord, 1833,
He set sail for Hudson's Bay over the sea,
A company man, a ship's surgeon was he,
A young man of barely twenty.
But he took to the life of the wild Rupert's Land,
He was eager to learn, he was quick to command,
He studied the ways of the Dogrib and Cree,
Hunting for fresh food a-plenty.

Chorus
With his gun in his hand, and his deerskin coat,
He could hunt, he could fish, he could sail any boat,
And his name was John Rae, and his spirit was free,
From Stromness he sailed away.

2. His boyhood in Orkney ensured he was suited
To a life in the wilderness, tough and sure-footed,
As the Hudson Bay Company governor put it,
"John Rae's the fellow we need".
With some well-chosen men he could duly set forth
To fill in the gaps on the maps of the North,
To King William Island and the cold Arctic coast,
John Rae's the man who'll succeed.
Chorus

3. The first white explorer, the first expedition
To learn from the Inuit's native tradition,
Travelling light, living off of the land,
Succeeding where others had foundered.
And he brought news of Franklin whose game was so great,
From the Inuit tribesmen he learned of their fate,
And the tale was so gruesome, it served to create
Suspicion of all he recounted.
Chorus

4. And he lived not for glory, he lived not for gain,
At one with the elements, snow, wind and rain,
And the trusted in God, and the power that came
From his own self-reliance and knowledge.
In St Magnus Cathedral, his figure reclines
As if taking his rest in a forest of pine,
At peace with the world, and a man of his time,
His spirit goes a-walking for ever.

Final chorus – sing it all then repeat 3rd line, ending on "free".

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 01:38 PM

There is an exhibition at The National Maritime Museum, Greenwich until 7th January called Death In The Ice: The shocking story of Franklin's final expedition.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 02:24 PM

HMS Erebus - captained by James Clark Ross - and HMS Terror had previously sailed to the Antarctic.

Antarctica: Life in a hostile land is on display at Shrewsbury Museum and Art Gallery and allows visitors to look at people's relationship with the most hostile continent on Earth.

The exhibition includes a 360° virtual reality tour of the UK's Halley VI research station, photos from Ben Osborne, original Antarctic video footage, equipment and mementos lent by Shropshire's Antarctic veterans, and objects associated with Sir Ernest Shackleton himself.

The museum will be hosting the exhibition until Sunday, September 17 2017.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Jul 17 - 02:50 AM

Inuit people have described meeting the crazed, cannibalistic remnants of the Franklin expedition, poor souls.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 28 Jul 17 - 04:31 AM

Arctic explorer Pen Hadow has announced his next challenge - to lead an expedition to the North Pole by yacht.

The 55-year-old will be leading the six-week Arctic Mission, which will set off from Nome in Alaska (USA) in the first week of August.

The expedition team will be on two 50-foot yachts – Bagheera and Snow Dragon II.

Read more at http://www.ybw.com/news-from-yachting-boating-world/explorer-pen-hadow-aims-first-person-sail-north-pole-yacht-57013#8Ewed5XawC1ZqG7h.99

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 08:28 AM

~~~~~~~~~
exhibition in London:
Death in the Ice:  Franklin's Final Expedition 
14 July 2017–7 Jan 2018 10am–5pm
National Maritime Museum
http://www.rmg.co.uk/see-do/franklin-death-in-the-ice 


~~~~~~~~~~
review from Andy Turner(+ AT singing Lord Franklin)
https://afolksongaweek.wordpress.com/2017/09/02/death-in-the-ice/ 

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 09:51 AM

Franklin's medal found

BBC News 27 July 2017;

A medal that has been on display in Orkney's Stromness Museum for years has just been identified as one awarded posthumously to Sir John Franklin.

Jeremy Mitchell from the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich said it was appropriate that Franklin's medal had ended up in Orkney.

"People forget that Stromness was (Franklin)'s last landfall, and the expedition spent three days here before disappearing off to the Arctic."

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 12:22 PM

Does anyone have this please ...

http://www.radiolistings.co.uk/programmes/c/co/concerning_franklin_and_his_gallant_crew.html

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 01:36 PM

Some 20 years ago, I visited Stromness museum and John Rae's house while sailing from Greenock to Shetland aboard the Norwegian tall ship Staadsraad Lehmkuhl. As we sailed out next morning, I sat with the rest of the watch at the break of the poop and sang my version of the song (much like Paul Clayton's - but that's another story...). Great memory.

Regards

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Sep 17 - 04:37 PM

CJB

Concerning Franklin

https://soundcloud.com/comesingitplain-1/concerning-franklin-and-his-gallant-crew

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 03:40 AM

Thanks - found it!!!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 02:31 PM

While not about Franklin (or even John Rae) there is another "icy" exhibition going on in Edinburgh right now, "Enduring Eye" at the National Library of Scotland on George 1V Bridge: this follows the voyage of Ernest Shackleton in the "Endurance" to Antarctica in 1914-17. The exhibition continue until November 12th.
See: https://www.nls.uk/news/press/2017/06/antarctica-photographs

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: EBarnacle
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 05:58 PM

If it's the exhibit I believe it is, it's been touring. One of the first stops was at the museum of Natural History in New York. Well worth the price of admission. He got into a mess and got himself and his crew out without the loss of a man.
Shachleton's timing was bad, though. He was pretty much without acclaim when he got home. Seems there was a war going on.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 06:55 PM

Some are of the opinion that franklin was incompetent

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: sian, west wales
Date: 04 Sep 17 - 07:18 PM

I caught a performance by David Newland at Orillia's Mariposa Folk Festival this summer - "The Northwest Passage". He's apparently been up there a few times and is putting together a recording of what was, indeed, an excellent hour of music and narration. He's working on it this autumn so I expect it will be out some time next year.

sian, west wales

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Sep 17 - 02:40 AM

1: The wreck of HMS Erebus from Franklin's lost expedition was discovered just west of O'Reilly Island in Queen Maud Gulf, in September 2014.

2: On 12 September 2016, the Arctic Research Foundation announced that the wreck of Terror had been found in Nunavut's Terror Bay, off the southwest coast of King William Island. The wreck was discovered 92 km (57 mi) south of the location where the ship was reported abandoned, and some 50 km (31 mi) from the wreck of HMS Erebus, discovered in 2014.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:51 AM

I wouldn't call Franklin incompetent; he was venturing into a remote and unknown region which suffered an extreme climate.

From National Museums Greenwich; Death in the Ice

In May 1845 two ships, HMS Erebus and Terror sailed from Britain to what is now Nunavut in Northern Canada. Explorations of the Arctic coastline had led to great optimism that finding and charting the final part of the North-West Passage ? the seaway linking the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans ? was now within reach. Explorer John Franklin, who had made two previous attempts to find it, was keen to claim the prize.

By previous standards the Erebus and Terror were powerful and luxurious, with heating systems and vast supplies of preserved foods. In late July, the two ships were seen by a whaler in Baffin Bay, waiting for ice to clear in Lancaster Sound and to begin their journey to the Bering Strait.

Franklin?s two naval vessels sailed up the Wellington Channel before turning south toward Beechey Island, where they would spend the winter. In the spring, they sailed south down Peel Sound but, off the northernmost point of King William Island, were trapped by the ice flow down the McClintock Channel.

Franklin?s ship was trapped in the ice in a remote and desolate area, which Inuit rarely visited, calling it Tununiq, ?the back of beyond?. [Franklin's crew] couldn?t rely on local people for meat, clothing, and oil, as other expeditions had. But they had enough supplies for about three years, and British expeditions were experienced at overwintering in the Arctic.

In the spring of 1847, a party from the expedition travelled across the ice to Point Victory on shore and deposited a written record of their progress. It is thought they reached Cape Herschel on the south coast of the island, filling in the unexplored part of the North-West Passage. Sir John Franklin died in June that year.

Still trapped in the ice, Erebus and Terror drifted south until Captain Crozier ordered their abandonment in April 1848. Weakened by starvation and scurvy, the 105 surviving men headed south for the Great Fish River. Most died on the march along the west coast of King William Island.

After two years without receiving any communication from Franklin?s mission the Admiralty sent out a search party but without success. A total of 39 missions were sent to the Arctic but it wasn?t until the 1850s that evidence of what befell the men began to emerge.

In 1854, Dr John Rae brought back Inuit stories that the expedition had perished somewhere to the west of the Back River. It appeared some of the men had resorted to cannibalism as many bodies were mutilated and body parts were found in cooking pots.

Read more at http://www.rmg.co.uk/discover/explore/john-franklin-final-north-west-passage-expedition-1845#sk1mGytyCyuF2qjI.99

From Scot Free Tours; DICKENS, JFK AND CANNIBALISM: THE FRANKLIN EXPEDITION AND ABERDEEN

Rae's report provoked outrage in Britain, with the most notable critics being Lady Franklin and Charles Dickens. Their argument basically consisted of saying that Englishmen would never become cannibals because it just wasn't cricket. This became a debate about national character and racial traits and Dickens tried to discredit the truth of the accounts coming from those inferior races ? the Inuits and the Scots.   

As part of this disagreement on what really happened to the Franklin expedition, Dickens' friend and fellow author Wilkie Collins wrote 'The Frozen Deep', a play ostensibly about the Franklin expedition but really it's more like 'The Phantom of the Opera on Ice' - its focus is on a love triangle with lots thrown in about self-sacrificing love and a brooding anti-hero.

Dickens found much to like in it for he put on several performances of the play - taking the starring role himself. It was while acting in the play he met the eighteen-year-old Ellen Ternan for whom he would leave his wife of 22 years. If that wasn't enough, the main character and the tortured love triangle also provided him with the inspiration for 'A Tale of Two Cities'.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 06:07 AM

I caught the tail end of a programme last night about the discovery of the wreck. Hunt for the Arctic Ghost, Channel 4 9pm.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 18 - 11:01 AM

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/sh/tixaWyQzFX/what-lies-beneath/

What lies beneath

Three summers ago, divers found the first wreck of the Franklin Expedition. Using state-of-the-art technology, they're now piecing together what led to the tragedy

In the murkiness shrouding the wrecks of the Franklin Expedition, the mysteries are endless.

How did HMS Erebus and HMS Terror end up where they did in the mid-19th century, meeting a sad demise in the icy depths off the coast of what is now Nunavut?

What about John Franklin and the 128 men who set out with him from England on their quest for the elusive Northwest Passage? What did they do as their grim fate became apparent?

And who were the last survivors?

In the face of so many unknowns, Parks Canada underwater archeologists and researchers are bringing many high-tech underwater tools and techniques to bear. And in that hunt, they've already latched onto some tantalizing discoveries, from DNA inside a boot to pewter buttons they think belonged to two Royal Navy sergeants on the expedition.

There is a certain irony in using cutting-edge technology to explore the Franklin ships. When Erebus and Terror set sail from Greenhithe in 1845, the wooden warships had been reinforced with iron sheeting for polar exploration and were renowned for the scientific and naval innovations on board.

Still, none of that staved off the tragic end of Franklin and his men after the ships were beset in ice off King William Island in 1846 and deserted two years later, according to a note left by the crew in a cairn.

The wrecks were found in 2014 and 2016, respectively, and state-of-the-art technology is being martialed to aid in their exploration. But beyond probing what remains within their wooden timbers, there is the hope that what researchers find will help them get inside the heads of the men on that expedition as disaster struck.

See the rest at the link.

Subject: RE: Lord Franklin in Copyright?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 May 20 - 10:11 PM

What's the source of the melody for this song. I'm guessing it's older than Lady Franklin.

Am I right?

I suppose Dylan owns the copyright. He's the only one who made money off this song.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 20 - 03:12 AM

The Croppy boySearch Results
Web results

The Croppy Boy - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org › wiki › The_Croppy_Boy
"The Croppy Boy" is an Irish ballad set in 1798 rising relating to the despair of a doomed young "croppy" or rebel. Broadside versions[edit]. Versions of the ballad first appeared shortly after the rising sung by street pedlars and there are several broadside songs printed

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 12 May 20 - 03:48 AM

From Mainly Norfolk; Nic Jones sang The Croppy Boy to the tune of Lord Franklin in 1967 on the Halliard's first album, It's the Irish in Me. Dave Moran reminisced in the notes of the album's 2011 reissue.

"We enjoyed making this LP for the experience, and in the expectation of then doing our broadside songs. Maybe this last track was Nic looking to that next recording, because I think our freer rhythmic delivery in beginning to pop out in this song, and it makes for a very good version of a very good song by a very good singer."

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 May 20 - 06:53 AM

well i am afraid it is the other way about lord franklin is sung to the tune the croppy boy,
who or who is not a good singer is debatable.
in my opinion,one of the best revival singers who was streets ahead of most of his contemporaries as a SINGER, was Tony Rose. singing is not just about having a good voice

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 13 May 20 - 07:30 PM

I'm working (slowly) on reproducing CD-rs of the Red Duster show "North West Passage - The Fate of Franklin and His Gallant Crew" which Ron Baxter and I devised and performed for Fylde Folk Festival, 1998.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 20 - 03:05 AM

Traditional singer, Jessie McDonald (MacColl's The Vintner) once told the story of a relative who was a crewman on a later expedition to the area where Franklin's ship was stranded and how that ship also became iced in
The only reason they survived was another crewman whose grandfather had sailed with Franklin, remembered family stories of Franklin's men burying caches of food during their attempts to find a way out of their predicament
The second lot managed to find some of the food which had been preserved by the ice
This story was recorded by Scots researcher, Ruaridh Greig
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 May 20 - 03:26 AM

A medal that has been on display in Orkney's Stromness Museum for years has been identified as one awarded posthumously to Sir John Franklin.

Military historian and medal collector Hiram Dunn spotted the medal on a visit to Stromness. But when the museum told him it had been donated by Rosalind Rawnsely, he realised there could be a direct family link to Sir John Franklin. He said, "nobody ever knew where Franklin's Arctic Medal was".

Jeremy Mitchell from the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich said it was appropriate that Franklin's medal had ended up in Orkney. "People forget that Stromness was (Franklin)'s last landfall, and the expedition spent three days here before disappearing off to the Arctic."

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 14 May 20 - 05:06 AM

Given that the only sailors to survive the Franklin expedition were those sent home early from ports like Stromness because of sickness, I would suggest that stories about food caches should be taken with a large pinch of salt. If subsequent search parties did find 'caches' of tinned food -and that was what the Franklin expedition carried - then they must have been tins that had been jettisoned in an effort to lighten the loads the crew were carrying and hauling. As far as I am aware, the reports of the various search expeditions make no mention of food caches on the known route south along King William Island. What was found were traces of cooked human flesh in abandoned cooking pots along with very obviously clean scraped and cut bones.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 20 - 06:13 AM

"I would suggest that stories about food caches should be taken with a large pinch of salt."
I don't know the rights and wrongs of all this but I do know that taking the word of past generations "with a pinch of salt" has lost us a geat deal of information
Sorry, I'm not in the habit of dismissing the reminiscences of a 94 year old lady or her forbear sailor and descendant researcher out of hand
If they all believed it I felt it worthwhile to pass on - make of it as you will
Jim

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Mossback
Date: 14 May 20 - 09:13 AM

There were of course earlier Franklin expeditions in 1819-22 and 1825-27, tho I don't recall mention of food caches from either. Could also be a somewhat garbled retelling of the stores of the HMS Fury wrecked in 1825 were cached on land & came to the rescue of John Ross'
expedition in 1829.I think several later expeditions found the were Fury's stores still edible as well.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 14 May 20 - 09:27 AM

It's a bit old now but even so it's worth reading:

Owen Beattie/ John Geiger:Frozen in Time: The Fate of the Franklin Expedition. Bloomsbury, 1987.

Whilst principally concerned with the Franklin seamen buried on Beechey Island, it also gives a good overview of the expedition, the various rescue attempts and what was found.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 May 20 - 10:06 AM

Didn't the autopsy on the sailors buried on Beechey find that they died from lead poisoning which sealed the tins of food they were eating?


I thought the earlier Franklin expeditions were by land when he was a young man. I have the books somewhere.

As for finding food caches, these could have been left by stranded whalers or other similar expeditions, or even by the Inuits. They would have had to have been well buried to survive polar bear scavenging or even of the Inuits themselves.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 14 May 20 - 01:43 PM

@Jim Carroll: I suspect your story mixes 3 Franklin expeditions! 1819 he was sent to Canada to go overland from Hudsons Bay to the Polar sea and map the coastline. Such an expedition requires setting out food caches. However, on the return journey they missed some of the caches with the result that 10 crew members died. 1825-1827 the admiralty sent him back to the area to carry on mapping where he'd left off in 1819. Presumably this time they found the caches they'd missed in 1819. Since, with 10 exceptions, all returned safely, it's the events of these expeditions which were remembered, mixed together and passed on.

@Steve Gardham: By all accounts now it wasn't so much the solder on the food tins as the concentrated supply of lead from the steam boilers on board that caused the poisoning. The sailors on Beechey Island had high lead levels but they also had diseases like TB. A consequence of the two mapping expeditions was that, when the ships were abandoned, Crozier and Fitzjames knew where they were heading for and, since they wouldn't be coming back, there was no sense in food caches.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 May 20 - 03:56 PM

The death of Franklin's party is generally attributed to a combination of causes including; hypothermia, exposure, starvation, scurvy, tuberculosis, zinc deficiency and lead poisoning - possibly caused either by the ships' water supplies or their tinned food in badly soldered tins.

Taichman and colleagues now believe that tuberculosis resulting in adrenal insufficiency, or Addison's disease, also contributed to the demise of the crew. Their findings were published in the journal Arctic in 2017.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 20 - 04:14 PM

i came across a singer some years ago a woman who had written a final verse about lead poisoning. was that you lynnh?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 15 May 20 - 03:13 AM

@Sandman: No.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 07:21 AM

The first two episodes of 10-part first season of The Terror are on BBC2 TV from 9pm on Wednesday March 3.

Faced with sub-zero conditions, limited resources, dwindling hope and fear of the unknown, the crews of HMS Erebus and HMS Terror are pushed to the brink – and no one is coming to save them.

The fate of the real expedition, which set sail in 1845 and led to more than 120 crew members inexplicably disappearing, has warranted a great deal of speculation. After almost 175 years of searching, coincidentally, the ships were discovered by arctic research groups in 2014 and 2016.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 06:44 PM

I watched the first episode of the BBC series and I wasn't impressed.
But I'll stick with it and see if it develops.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Joe G
Date: 03 Mar 21 - 07:23 PM

Yes it was very drawn out - I was disappointed to see it was 10 episodes (albeit only 45 mins each though the first one felt like more than an hour!)

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Oriel
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 01:19 AM

'Inexplicable disappearance' - they were marooned in the middle of an Arctic winter. Surviving would have been 'inexplicable'!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 07:08 AM

"'Inexplicable disappearance' - they were marooned in the middle of an Arctic winter. Surviving would have been 'inexplicable'!"

Roald Amundsen and five others in his crew managed to survive two winters trapped in the Arctic ice Guest Oriel - The explanation for how they managed that is simple, they were far better prepared, had chosen the correct type of vessel and most important of all they were prepared to listen and learn from those who lived there.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Clive Pownceby
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 08:49 AM

Should have known when I saw Ridley Scott as Director that it would be hard-hitting, gory and erm, supernatural. These were interesting two segments that certainly drew me in but I doubt I'll be sticking it out. The filming and effects were very effective and an embroidered plotline makes for a good story but it's just too far from the reality of the expedition for me.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 09:41 AM

good point observer

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Roger.
Date: 04 Mar 21 - 03:15 PM

I suppose a lot of us 'folkie types' have been familiar with the story of Franklin due to the song, and like me have looked into the whole tale a little deeper.
I don't think there is much doubt these days about what actually happened, and from a personal point of view I think that these dramatised productions just mislead people and distort history.
I think it is good that the ships have been found, and as an ex Merchant Navy man I hope that they are left in their resting place.
God forbid that they should become a sideshow like the Titanic.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 05 Mar 21 - 05:11 AM

After two years and no word from the expedition, Lady Franklin urged the Admiralty to send a search party. Because the crew carried supplies for three years, the Admiralty waited another year before launching a search and offering a £20,000 reward (equivalent to almost £2 million in 2019) for finding the expedition.

The money and Franklin's fame led to many searches. At one point, ten British and two American ships, USS Advance and USS Rescue, headed for the Arctic. Eventually, more ships and men were lost looking for Franklin than in the expedition itself. Ballads such as "Lady Franklin's Lament", commemorating Lady Franklin's search for her lost husband, became popular. Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 06:34 AM

1906 Amundsen made the first Northwest Passage via the Simpson Strait in Gjoa
2007 The entire route was ice-free in the summer for the first time in recorded history
2010 Two gray whales native to the Pacific Ocean were seen in the Atlantic Ocean for the first time in more than 200 years
2012 A record number of 30 ships made the passage
2013 Nordic Orion became the first cargo ship to make the passage
2014 Nunavik became the first cargo ship to make the passage unaccompanied
2016 Crystal Serenity became the first tourist cruise ship to navigate the Northwest Passage
2019 Cruise ship MS Roald Amundsen became the first battery-hybrid powered ship to sail make the Northwest Passage

Though Franklin froze with his gallant crew
The ice has melted and his dream's come true
We see the ships sailing to and fro
Where is there for the polar bear to go?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 11:18 AM

" I hope that they are left in their resting place."

In which case they will most certainly decay and be lost forever. These ships are not graves, they were abandoned by their crews, unlike say the "Mary Rose" which sank with great loss of life. Fortunately for our understanding of the period, the "Mary Rose", once found, was subject to removal from the seabed and extensive archaeological investigation and preservation. Could there be similar advantages in raising HMS Terror? The significance of this particular ship is in her state of "completeness" and a detailed study of it would determine how she actually got to her final resting place [It is currently believed that she had to have been sailed there, she is in a sheltered position bound to the North by shallow water, islands and rocks]. The importance of that is that if she was sailed there then the Franklin Expedition, or at least one of it's ships DID actually make it through the North-West Passage.

As for the fate of Polar Bears? They do not require ice for survival, they are extremely good swimmers, there are masses of uninhabited islands and a plentiful food supply.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 01:44 PM

Polar bears spend most of their lives on the sea ice of the Arctic Ocean, which gives them access to the ringed seals that are their primary food. The loss of sea ice habitat is the biggest threat to the survival of polar bears.

Because of ongoing and potential loss of their sea habitat resulting from climate change, polar bears were listed as a threatened species in the US under the Endangered Species Act in May 2008.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 02:54 PM

Current info on ships in Wikipedia. I don't know what could be done to preserve the ships. I'd think messing with them would be destructive.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 04:32 PM

A visit to the site of Erebus;

Visit site of Erebus

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 05:06 PM

Henry, if this link is where you wanted to go, I can fix it and delete my message. Your link doesn't work.
I found a site for the HMS Terror.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 05:22 PM

Observer, the cold sea water is preserving the wrecks better than trying to raise them would. I'd guess if someone tried to move them, they'd disintegrate.

The Dokos, from 2200 - 2700 BC. Seems to have lasted.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 06:07 PM

The "Dokos" that Jeri thinks has lasted. This however from the link that Jeri provided:

"The ship itself is long gone, as everything biodegradable has been taken back by the sea. The remains at the sea floor of a cargo site of hundreds of clay vases and other ceramic items are evidence of the shipwreck.[1] The four-thousand-year-old ancient shipwreck was discovered by Peter Throckmorton on August 23, 1975."

First five words say it all.

Both the Vasa [1628] and the Mary Rose [1545] were successfully recovered from the seabed and will remain preserved for generations to view and learn from.

"Polar bears spend most of their lives on the sea ice of the Arctic Ocean, which gives them access to the ringed seals that are their primary food. The loss of sea ice habitat is the biggest threat to the survival of polar bears." - henryp

1. Polar Bears spend most of their lives on the sea ice of the Arctic Ocean henryp primarily because it is there.

2. If there was no sea ice the ringed seals would still be there, they would still have to come onshore.

3. The loss of sea ice habitat is the biggest threat to the survival of Polar Bears - Did a polar bear tell you that henryp? My guess henryp is that even without ice the polar bears would still hunt, catch and eat ringed seals in the Arctic wastes.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 06:12 PM

Thanks, Jeri. Visit Erebus. This is the site; https://www.adventurecanada.com/northwest-passage/a-visit-to-the-wrecks-of-the-hms-erebus-and-hms-terror-national-historic-site-of-canada

For some reason, can't get link to work.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Mar 21 - 06:22 PM

Had a look. In the link that didn't work, "of-canada" is missing from the address. In any case, thanks for positng it again.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 01:29 AM

Polar bears rely heavily on sea ice for travelling, hunting, resting, mating and, in some areas, maternal dens. Their diet mainly consists of ringed and bearded seals; they need large amounts of fat to survive. Seals are a particularly rich food-source especially for hungry mothers and their growing cubs. The bear puts on most of its yearly fat reserves between late April and mid-July to maintain its weight in the lean seasons. Ringed seals use sea ice exclusively as their breeding, moulting and resting (haul-out) habitat, rarely if ever coming onto land. They create or maintain their holes in the ice using the well-developed claws on their fore-flippers. They survive the Arctic winter by building lairs (small caves) in the snow on top of sea ice during the winter and give birth in the early spring to their single pup inside a snow lair.

Food can be hard to come by for polar bears for much of the year. The food-free season can last 3 to 4 months - or even longer in areas like Canada's Hudson Bay. As their sea ice habitat recedes earlier in the spring and forms later in the fall, polar bears are increasingly spending longer periods on land. This has increased human-polar bear conflict when hungry polar bears go searching for food in the summer. Loss of their sea ice habitat resulting from climate change is the primary threat to polar bears Arctic-wide. The Arctic is warming about twice as fast as the global average, causing the ice that polar bears depend on to melt away. Loss of sea ice also threatens the seals which are the bear's main prey, and which need the ice to raise their young.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,LynnH
Date: 07 Mar 21 - 04:43 AM

For what it's worth, my suspicion is that although the crews had removed most of the stores, fuel etc . from the ships, there were still working parties on board. The weather broke, stopping them getting back to the rest of the crews on land but opened the ice enough for at least one ship, Erebus, to start drifting down Victoria Strait toward her eventual last resting place in Maud Gulf. Inuit reported seeing one of the ships in Victoria Strait with smoke coming from the funnel. Also, the find of a ships boat, along with all sorts of 'junk' from the ship, on the shore of King William Island in such a position that it could be launched quite easily suggests that, before they died, a couple of sailors had been going out to the drifting Erebus on scavenging operations. The boat and a couple of bodies were discovered by one of the search operations (M'Clintock?) which also noted the orientation of the boat.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 08 Mar 21 - 02:54 AM

Quite right henryp the Polar Bears and the Ringed and Bearded Seals adapted over thousands of years [Roughly 150,000 years ago in the case of the Polar Bear] to survive in the climate they found themselves in - I dare say that they will continue to adapt to changing circumstances.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 08 Mar 21 - 04:18 AM

Precisely, Observer. They will adapt just like Franklin and his gallant crew.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 08 Mar 21 - 07:38 AM

Unfortunately for Franklin and his crew henryp there was no question of them "adapting" the approach of the entire expedition was one of ignorance and arrogance and they paid the ultimate price for their stupidity.

Amundsen's expedition on the other hand was thoroughly and meticulously planned and prepared. Much smaller in scale, better choice of strategy and choice of vessel and a willingness to learn from others. This expedition was trapped in the ice for two winter seasons but by the time the first had passed the entire expedition felt quite confident that they had the skills to survive in the Arctic for any length of time.

What Amundsen learned in the Arctic those two winters meant that in 1912 there was no doubt that Amundsen would be the first to the South Pole and that his team would have far fewer problems in the Antarctic.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 08 Mar 21 - 08:55 AM

With slowly changing climate and habitat over say 10,000 years, I'm sure Polar bears would be able to adapt, but unfortunately their habitat is changing at an alarming rate. As a species they might just survive but we are putting enormous pressure on them by drastically reducing their preferred habitat.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 07:02 AM

The Terror

From The Observer today; Divers plan return to Franklin wrecks

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: rich-joy
Date: 25 Mar 21 - 10:02 PM

A 1970 recording by deceased English-born singer Colin Dryden (renowned in Australia) of "Lord Franklin", has just been posted to YouTube by his niece, with notes by English folk performer, Gerry Hallom :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVuO2DAV8oE


Cheers, R-J

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Apr 21 - 09:44 AM

Hurtigruten are offering "the ultimate 2023 full transit of the North West Passage". It's a 24 night voyage on the MS Roald Amundsen sailing from Nome, Alaska through the North West Passage and Davis Strait to Greenland, and ending at Halifax, Nova Scotia.

Prices start from £16,000 pounds for a Polar Outside cabin rising to £33,000 for an Expedition XL Suite with Balcony. And to think that the British government offered a £20,000 reward in 1850 "to any party or parties, of any country, who shall render efficient assistance to the crews of the discovery ships under the command of Sir John Franklin."

I shall have to start saving today!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,ottery
Date: 14 Apr 21 - 12:29 PM

If you turn up some more bones on King William Island, they may give you a discount??

I hope no one ever gives me £16 000. I know what I'd do with it now!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 14 Apr 21 - 01:01 PM

Re henryp's list of sucessful transits - there is one more. I remember an article and pictures from the time in National Geographic magazine.

"SS Manhattan was an oil tanker constructed at the Fore River Shipyard in Quincy, Massachusetts, that became the first commercial ship to cross the Northwest Passage in 1969." (Wiki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Manhattan_(1962)

My friend Ron Baxter (Sailor Ron on Mudcat, not net-connected these days) saw the Manhattan on one of his trips to the USA. He reckons the state of the ship's plates was the reason that ideas of a second transit were abandoned, along with plans for commercial exploitation (for the time being) of the North West Passage.

I just finished binge-watching "Terror" on BBC iPlayer. Interesting novelisation of how things might have been.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0954ks6/the-terror?seriesId=p0954l6v

Ross

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Reinhard
Date: 14 Apr 21 - 02:40 PM

Henryp, according to some online calculator, 1850's £20,000 are worth £2,710,103 now.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 25 Apr 21 - 02:58 PM

Monday 26 April 2021 10.00pm More4 UK
Hunt for the Arctic Ghost Ship
The expedition that discovered the Victorian ship HMS Erebus.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Apr 21 - 03:03 PM

that'll teach him to tie keys to kites!

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 26 Apr 21 - 09:15 AM

"Henryp, according to some online calculator, 1850's £20,000 are worth £2,710,103 now."

Chicken feed! David Cameron was in line to make £200 million from the Greensill flotation. But his hopes melted away like summer ice in the North West passage.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,MichaelKM
Date: 30 Jan 22 - 07:35 AM

Earlier in this thread, Richard Mellish quoted the second verse of Cyril Tawney's rendition of 'Lady Franklin's Lament', presumably taken from his cassette album 'Sailor's Delight'. This is identical to the second verse of 'Franklin's Crew' in Joanna C. Colcord's 'Songs of American Sailormen' (1938). I would would like to establish whether Tawney sang that variant or simply added the verse to the ubiquitous 'Lord Franklin' to make it more intelligible. Would anyone having this cassette be prepared to discuss this issue with me here?

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 09:02 AM

Hurtigruten are offering a full transit of the North West Passage in 2024 from Reykjavik to Vancouver. That's something that Cook and Franklin were unable to achieve.

It's in comfort that they could only dream of, and at a cost that would take their breath away.

First class cabins £43,000 per person; Steerage cabins £13,500 per person.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:55 AM

Yeah, but there's been inflation....

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 03:01 PM

To: GUEST, MichaelKM Date: 30 Jan 22 - 07:35 AM

You can find the words sung by Cyril Tawney (Lady Franklin's Lament) on the invaluable Mainly Norfolk website, as well as the words from Joanna Colcord, sung by Éilís Kennedy (Franklin’s Crew).

The two are similar, until the last verse, where Cyril Tawney interposes four lines. Artisan do something very similar in their version.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 04:46 PM

John Rae was the third of a trio of Hudson Bay Company employees to explore Canada by learning and using survival techniques from Native Americans.

Samuel Hearne 1745 – 1792 was the first European to make an overland excursion across northern Canada to the Arctic Ocean, specifically to Coronation Gulf, via the Coppermine River.

David Thompson 1770 – 1857 traveled 90,000 kilometers (56,000 mi) across North America, mapping 4.9 million square kilometers (1.9 million square miles) of the continent along the way. He also used native knowledge, techniques and contacts to survive and explore. He kept detailed records and discovered a route through the Rockies to Canada's Pacific coast.

David Thompson was Rae's boss at some point in his career. The word is they did not get on well.

Ray Mears has an excellent series of TV programs on these men.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 09:02 AM

Hurtigruten are offering a full transit of the North West Passage in 2024 from Reykjavik to Vancouver. That's something that Cook and Franklin were unable to achieve.

It's in comfort that they could only dream of, and at a cost that would take their breath away.

First class cabins £43,000 per person; Steerage cabins £13,500 per person.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 03:01 PM

To: GUEST, MichaelKM Date: 30 Jan 22 - 07:35 AM

You can find the words sung by Cyril Tawney (Lady Franklin's Lament) on the invaluable Mainly Norfolk website, as well as the words from Joanna Colcord, sung by Éilís Kennedy (Franklin’s Crew).

The two are similar, until the last verse, where Cyril Tawney interposes four lines. Artisan do something very similar in their version.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Lighter
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 11:55 AM

Yeah, but there's been inflation....

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Stanron
Date: 14 Oct 23 - 04:46 PM

John Rae was the third of a trio of Hudson Bay Company employees to explore Canada by learning and using survival techniques from Native Americans.

Samuel Hearne 1745 – 1792 was the first European to make an overland excursion across northern Canada to the Arctic Ocean, specifically to Coronation Gulf, via the Coppermine River.

David Thompson 1770 – 1857 traveled 90,000 kilometers (56,000 mi) across North America, mapping 4.9 million square kilometers (1.9 million square miles) of the continent along the way. He also used native knowledge, techniques and contacts to survive and explore. He kept detailed records and discovered a route through the Rockies to Canada's Pacific coast.

David Thompson was Rae's boss at some point in his career. The word is they did not get on well.

Ray Mears has an excellent series of TV programs on these men.

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Sep 24 - 05:15 AM

Any verses about cannibalism?

DNA study of the remains

Subject: RE: Concerning Franklin and His Gallant Crew - 1845
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 09:43 PM

Another article about Capt. James Fitzjames and his identification.

Cannibalized Sailor From Doomed Arctic Expedition Identified Through a DNA

It includes a link to an original scholarly article that was probably reviewed for the aggregator news sources.