BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?

Subject: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Guest... music lover AND conservative (gasp)
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:45 PM

Are there any musicians of the conservative persuasion on Mudcat? I'm just seeing a bunch of "our way or the highway" type posts on here tonight. Good grief, people. Let's just talk music.
BTW, does anyone have chords to "Oh the Pain of Loving You" as recorded by Trio?

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:49 PM

Guest MLAC:

There are a number of them who range from the center to the obsessively right-wing. Your best bet is DougR, who at least continues to communicate, and only gets rabid when he's off his meds.

If you wish to solely discuss music, of course, you won't see any political haranguing, because you won't be opening any BS threads or those with obviosuly political titles.

A

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:50 PM

You've been reading the wrong posts, Guest. You have company here. And some are intelligent. And some aren't. One of the smartest people I know is a conservative. He's a relative, though, so it's probably the result of tainted blood.

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:52 PM

Thanks for the quick responses. I was getting frustrated. Does BS stand for Barbra Streisand?
Ciao

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 05:53 PM

Yes

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 06:03 PM

I conserve energy, but then so do most of us communists.......

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 06:05 PM

Funny- most conservatives I know are good conservators of our resources and environment. Hence, the root "conserve". But surely you aren't buying into big media stereotypes of conservative people.

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: vectis
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 06:23 PM

Do you mean Conservative or conservative. There is a Hell of a difference between the two.

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: The Pooka
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 07:52 PM

As there is between Republican and republican.

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 07:57 PM

My wife used to say I'm the most conservative man she's ever known. But I'm not "a Conservative".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:07 PM

"most conservatives I know are good conservators of our resources and environment."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

...oh sorry... you may not be American...

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Cllr
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:15 PM

I am a conservative UK county councillor hence the nick name Cllr

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Cllr
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:18 PM

Im also a member of the RWBFEOA (Right Wing Bast**d Folk Event Organiser Association) of wich there are sevral members one of which is also a mudcatter. Cllr

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:39 PM

Us socialists are sometimes worth talking to as well mate

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:44 PM

Yes there are some conservative Mudcatters. I, for one, tend to regard them affectionately. Granted, it's the type of cautious affection that I have for my neighbor's pit bull dog. I know that if I ever get bitten by either one it's not really their fault. It's more likely due to faulty training way back in the puppy stage.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 09:45 PM

Another label, eh? I'll try to answer the question if someone would would care to define the term.

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:07 PM

Guest, I am a Conservative. I play in a folk group with t others, 2 Conservatives and a Moderate Democrat. It seems that somehow we can still ,play and enjoy the music somehow. I have met a lot of folks here many of them liberals some of them selfproclaimed socialists (LEADFINGERS) than I count as my friends. Jerry Rasmussin is not a conservative but somehow he doesn't feel like he needs to cross the street when we are approaching   (grin) I think, and I hope my liberal friends agree, that we are not enemies, we just have diffenent philosophies. Doesn't make me right or them wrong or vice versa. I have a good frient who is a folk musician in Denmark who is an ardent Socialist. He is a fascinating person who has passion about his idiology but he also will listen to and respect others as well.   Seems where we should all be striving for, whether over politics, economics or religion. Join in, don't have a chip on your shoulder, listen,contribute, but don't let folks'comments get to you. Enjoy the music!!!

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:32 PM

Ahoy, Mate!

Yes, I have found that I'm not the only Oxymoron ("Conservative Folkie") around these digs, but we are sort of a minority.

I'll tell you this, though; we are tolerated a whole lot better in here than we used to be. At least now the Socialists with an agenda to grind usually have the decency to confine their Marxist rantings to the "BS" threads, which unless you enjoy being vastly outnumbered in a debate and getting well flamed, you may do well to just avoid.

I was one of the first and the few to take a stand against the prevailing dominance and intimidation of the liberal majority on the 'Cat, and I've got the scorched shorts to show for it! I would like to think that I contributed somewhat to the improved level of civility in here, but thanks be a few good, articulate and well informed fellow Conservative Patriots came alongside to help level the playing field. I will admit that I encountered some of the most articulate, intellectually astute, and compelling champions of the political left in here as I have ever known, and I got quite an education from both contending sides.
That's particularly noteworthy as liberals are typically known not for their intellectual or pragmatic appeal, as much as for their routine knee-jerk emotional pitch; ie. "It's for the children!", "Tax breaks for the Rich", etc..

Conservatism, by the way, as I understand it, implies a system of belief in which it is the PEOPLE, NOT GOVERNMENT that make a Civilization work. People are created (usually by a Diety, although we are not all together on that yet) to live in a context of Community with Free Agency, within the structure of just Law, with concurrent Rights and Responsibilities. A Citizen should be free to reap the rewards of initiative and labor, yet liable for the consequences of negligence, incompetence, or the abuse of another's rights.
All participants in the Community are equally responsible under the Law and accountable to it and one another, as they are equally entitled to it's protection.

Conservatives beleive that the U.S. Constitution is the guiding, foundational document of our Nation, and must not be adulterated, modified, or truncated in the interest of "modernizing" it or making it a "living document". We resent politically motivated Judges creating Law from the bench without the consent of the American People or their duly elected Representatives - such as "seeing" a Constitutional "right" to prenatal infanticide (AKA "abortion")in our Constitution when it never was there to begin with, or ignoring rights which ARE enumerated - such as the 2nd Ammendment - in permitting confiscatory "gun control" legislation.

Most Conservatives I know would agree that a woman should have a "choice"... as to how much water she needs to flush her toilet, what kind of car she drives, where she invests her retirement funds, and which School in her locale should be entrusted with the education of her Children - even if she is not wealthy like all of the Politicians who deny her most of these choices yet whose Children are privately educated.

"Liberalism", on the other hand, assumes that the "little people" who wash the laundry and fix the cars, bake the bread etc. are incompetent to make significant decisions in their lives or to take care of themselves or their families adequately. They are "like children" (a similar assumption was made by the Plantation Owners in the South towards Blacks at one time) and need to be "looked out for" by a more enlightened, benificient elite; "The Government".
Since the peasants are obviously too stupid to be trusted with the money they earn, it must be confistcated "for safe keeping" by the Government and "shared" with those more worthy. Of course the "worthy" will be determined by the politcal elite.
Workers must be indoctrinated from an early age (that's what Public Schools are for, you know) to be completely passive and dependant on (and obedient to) "Massah" down in Washington DC, who will do all of their thinking for them, spend most of their money for them, tell them what to beleive in, who to vote for... and de Gubmint will take good care ob dem!
These in a nutshell, I think, are the assumptions of Liberalism.

Others will surely have alternative perspectives.

To my heart and mind, only in Conservatism are the priceless treasures of LIBERTY and FREEDOM to be found. Not without strife, labor and risk, to be sure - but there are yet a few of us old dinosaurs left in this America who are still really hooked on Liberty, and addicted to Freedom - such little as is left to us in our time.

And the chains of liberal / socialist dependancy and subjugation do not appeal to us at all.

Subject: RE: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:57 PM

By the way; "Amen" to jimmyt's sentiments; Despite occasonal ruffled feathers here and there in the past, I am blessed to count as dear Friends many folks who subscribe to a distinctly alternative political perspective than I. It just so happens that not a few are fellow "Catters.
By and large, we get along just fine, and eventually learn where each others idealogical "buttons" are and have the decency not to go out of our way to push them.

(Ya wanna push buttons? Buy a Concertina!)

My Mother was a card-carrying Socialist at one time, and an avid Liberal Democrat for as long as I can remember. When my brother was serving in the Army over in Vietnam and I in Korea, she was getting busted in Washington DC for participating in a "Mother's March" anti-war demonstration!

Now that she has passed beyond the vail, the mantle of "my favorite Socialist" has passed to a dear friend and probably the most interesting man I know, who is well known to most Mudcatters in the Southern Maine area.

And the more I get to know some of these folks, the more apparent it usually becomes that our essential core values, hopes, dreams and aspirations are not all as far removed from one another as perhaps we once might once have assumed. Music really helps in that process of discovery, I opine - perhaps one reason I love it so.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:12 PM

Guest,

I consider myself to be a consevative on many issues but I am a registered independent. I am a full-time musician and I work hard to make ends meet.

I take issue with the comment about conservatives: "most conservatives I know are good conservators of our resources and environment. Hence, the root "conserve".

I thinks most liberals would diagree with that. The current line of thinking is that conservatives are "not" trying to conserve the natural resources. They are trying to drill for oil in Alaska etc., etc.

I believe that conservate/liberal is a ying/yang type of belief system. Those in power try to hold their power and beliefs, those not in power try to get more power. Many of the beliefs of each change over time and are held by the other.

Conservatives and liberals are defined by their politial agendas not by the words: conservative and liberal.

-Richie

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:22 PM

Oh, Uncle J! Have you left yourself wide open... This will be fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:22 PM

Let me explain something for non-Americans. Our POLITICAL conservatives are, for the most part, rabidly opposed to conservation. In fact, I don't think they'll be happy until the Potomac River bursts once again into flames. (Yes, it did happen once; back in the bad old days when, pound for pound, America's biggest export was pollution.)[No joke here people. It happened. I THINK the number was 250 million tons of pollutants in the air per year.] Our government wants the good old days back.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:26 PM

Are you sure that was flames on the potomac or just hot air crossing from congress across the tidal basin?   grin

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Genie
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:29 PM

I'm with Art. Please define your terms.

When it comes to our Constitution, especially the Bill Of Rights, I consider myself pretty conservative -- a lot more than a lot of "right wingers" are. I'm hardly a Marxist (not because the ideal isn't worthy, but because I think it can't work in society at large). As others have said, I take a very conservative approach when it comes to the issue of the use of our natural resources. But if "liberal" means tolerance of diversity and freedom from unnecessary restrictions on personal behavior, I'm for that.

Why do we call someone "conservative" who wants to restrict who can be legally partnered with whom in a domestic unit, but who is quite ready to throw out the first and fourth Amendments for the sake of "national security" and to throw caution to the winds when it comes to dealing with potential global warming?

Just wondering.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:31 PM

A childhood friend of mine, bumped into a college friend of mine.

The first was conservative, the later liberal.

In conversation about my peculiar personality....the college friend referred to me as being "right wing of Ghengis Khan." I took it as a compliment

Yes, I am, likewise, a musician and a conservative.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Don't worry about the wannabe "liberals" of the Mudcat, they lack both the voice and the values of one active conservative. For most, the Mudcat is their only forum>

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:37 PM

That wasn't the Potomac, misophist. It was the Cuyahoga River in Cleveland Ohio...

Click

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:52 PM

Dear CarolC,

Forgive me. I am of an age when senility is no longer a threat. What I mean is, I may be wrong, but I'm never wrong, you dig. As the great Fats Waller once said; "Your pedal extremities are simply outrageous". That explains everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:55 PM

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 11:58 PM

Not a conservative, but am addicted to hearing what conservatives think.

I had hoped somebody would post a characterisation of liberals on the What is a conservative thread, and here one is, cool. It's a little general, quite a bit slanted about the trendy, jerky, fad-liberalism, and I have to disagree.

There certainly is some liberal nannyish nonsense, but conservative stuff also. There's fashionable liberalism ready-made for people to priss around in.

We've had to amend the constitution because it wasn't understood the first time, it's expressed ideals could not be realised then, in regard to equality particularly. Documents and language, ideals and reality are like that. My favorite phrase is These truths we hold to be self-evident. That kills me.

A conservative friend of mine who lives to hunt manages to agree that some people shouldn't operate a gun, a competence test like driving a car doesn't bug him--he's been hunting with people he doesn't want out there. Others feel that it opens the door to further restrictions, but I don't think it's going to happen. Those "gateway" arguments don't make real sense. I know a guy who's been standing in the gateway to hard drugs for 30 years, smoking pot, doesn't even use legal drugs, no cigarettes, doesn't drink.

Maybe it's people, not government, but in government by the people--I'm not sure what you're saying. There aren't any kings. But liberals of my sort believe that responsibilities in regard to negligence, incompetence, abuse of the rights of others are undermined by demonstrable biases, by the legal doctrine of incorporation, which proposes a company is a living thing apart from those who make the decisions. And by selective enforcement of law, biased toward the wealthy. That when a company ceo is rewarded for running a company into the ground, something isn't working.

Things get complicated, despite what we'd prefer. Free enterprise has hidden costs, if you think about it. Was it liberals who knew better than everyone else and poured our money into nuclear power, which would never make it in free enterprise? Still hasn't?

The best conservative thinkers I've found finally throw up their hands and wonder why we are evil. Government can do a few things well, when it's composed of--people--who believe in it instead of people who don't and have nothing better in mind than to bend it to their own interests.

   As for abortion, I've never had to confront it personally, don't like to mouth around about it. But I see a disparity in the moral allowances we'll grant depending on who is making the decisions. Conservatives have been slow on all that, no matter what anyone says, they have, damn it. And now conservatives teach us the lessons of slavery. Well, if conservatives understood the ideals of the constitution the first time liberals wouldn't need to re-write it so they'd finally get it. Last I heard most people support abortion as a choice, rather than some lone self-appointed elite liberal judge foisting it on us, as you seem to think.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:00 AM

And to Genie:

I neither jest not exaggerate. Conservatives have their place. Without TR there would be no national parks system. Too many conservatives, however, (such as Bush) think having a place for us all to live comes second to giving their cronies another tax break. I remember with fondness and fervor, the lines from 'The Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy': 'And when the revolution came, they were the first to be dragged to the wall'. Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:17 AM

My post was meant to respond to UJ.

I can't agree about the humanising power of music, sad to say, must confess I'm cynical about it. Music can make you think you understand what you don't understand, think you feel what you don't really feel. It represents things to us through the backdoor of our awareness, despite what Plato thought, and must be good to be good.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Genie
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:50 AM

Misophist (et al.), Lincoln was a "conservative," too, of sorts, I'd say -- but not a Reagan-Bush-Bush-Falwell-Robertson-Ashcroft type, I think.

Conservatives like TR I have a lot in common with.

I actually agree with a lot of what the current right wing commentators say in criticism of the tax-and-spend, big-government, excessive entitlements "liberals." Where they lose me as an audience and as a voter is their knee-jerk tendency to throw out any common-sense idea or proposal if it is espoused by "liberals." It is as though they care more about party and "wing" alliances than about ideas.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: open mike
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 03:55 AM

why is it that many folks who do not
want women to be able to choose to end
an unwanted pregnancy (are they pro life or anti choice?)
are in favor of the death penalty
(why is it ok to kill if the victim is no longer a child?)
perhaps it should be a crime to force a child to grow up
unwanted and suffer all thru their lives.
I jsut always wondered how this couild be justified
and why it is often so that people who are
"pro life" also are "pro death"(penalty)
-it does not make sense to me.
just a comment

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:05 AM

Kolk music is SOCIALIST music, if conservatives want to sing it, why
not. They must remember that folk music and politics go hand in hand.
Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Ralphie
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 06:21 AM

A little observation from the UK.
I've been a socialist all my life.
I've always voted Labour in our elections.
And now.......I'm a Conservative!
My choice?.....I don't think so..
Excuse me, must go and stock up my bunker.
Happy New War...(Woops sorry...Year!!)
Ralphie

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: artbrooks
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:00 PM

Well, ok, let's use Uncle Jaque's definition:

Conservatism, by the way, as I understand it, implies a system of belief in which it is the PEOPLE, NOT GOVERNMENT that make a Civilization work. People are created (usually by a Diety, although we are not all together on that yet) to live in a context of Community with Free Agency, within the structure of just Law, with concurrent Rights and Responsibilities. A Citizen should be free to reap the rewards of initiative and labor, yet liable for the consequences of negligence, incompetence, or the abuse of another's rights. Good solid ninth-grade civics, and would be agreed with by any middle-of-the-roader and just about every intelligent person I've ever met that calls him/herself a liberal.

All participants in the Community are equally responsible under the Law and accountable to it and one another, as they are equally entitled to it's protection. Good, liberal, point of view. Nobody is above the law, regardless of their income or family connections.

Conservatives beleive that the U.S. Constitution is the guiding, foundational document of our Nation, and must not be adulterated, modified, or truncated in the interest of "modernizing" it or making it a "living document". Well, this is a bit short-sighted. The Constitution, or at least the original document and the first amendments to it (the Bill of Rights), were written 220 years ago by a group of individuals who were all white males and about half of whom owned and benefited from the labor of other human beings. Perhaps the original would have been different if Eighteenth Century society had been more representative. However, the Amendment system works fairly well. We resent politically motivated Judges creating Law from the bench without the consent of the American People or their duly elected Representatives - such as "seeing" a Constitutional "right" to prenatal infanticide (AKA "abortion")in our Constitution when it never was there to begin with, or ignoring rights which ARE enumerated - such as the 2nd Ammendment - in permitting confiscatory "gun control" legislation. More than a few loaded buzz-words here. What judge has permitted "confiscatory "gun control" legislation"? Judges don't legislate. If a law was passed that did so, than the peoples' "duly elected Representatives" are the ones that did so. The Liberal view of the 2nd Amendment is that that it is perfectly acceptable...as long as the beginning of it, where it says "a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state" is not ignored.

OK, I guess that I'm a conservative, or maybe I'm a liberal, or maybe anybody that concocts their own definition, one which has no relationship to the real beliefs of the individuals whom they are defining, and then indiscriminately applies it, is living off in their own little Cloud-cookoo Land.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: jimmyt
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 12:08 PM

You may have a point, Art.. I think by your definition, I am, and I suspect an awful lot of us are living off in "cloud cookoo" land. I think if folks will actually analyse their belief systems, we are mostly hybrids. I am pro choice, pro gun control, frightened by the moral majority mentality, OK with same sex partnership and the benefits I feel they should be given, but, on most otgher issues, I just can't agree with liberal economics. Again, as I stated before, I think there are more of us in this middle ground than you would suspect. Libertarians look better and better to me as a viable choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:05 PM

liberals & conservatives are not cast from two specific molds. They have some widely divergent views within each group, so simplifed characterizations are dangerous.

Still, almost any steroetype has 'some' basis in fact, even if it is distorted by the opposition in practice. We all know that Ted Kennedy and Phil Donohue are 'different' from Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanan, but it is hard to explicate exactly what is at the basis of their attitudes and practices and positions on issues.

Did you ever ask yourself how two obviously intelligent, well-read people can look at the exact same issue and being given the exact same data and history, come to totally opposite conclusions? Obviously, the 'differences' are internal, and mostly amount to people trying to defend intelletually views that they 'feel' through their cultural/personal/psychological history.

It is truly amazing to me that the society's views on issues such as abortion are decided by close votes in a court which has been selected by the accidental political fortunes of years ago!

Surely 'voting', by either a court or the public at large, does not make abortion right or wrong? It seems to me that there is only ony way to approach law-making that is fair....and I admit that it will never be easy to do, even though I am convinced that it is sensible.

When an issue such as abortion comes up, the law should be written so as to allow each person to follow his/her own moral concience about it. As in, "if YOU do not like abortion, don't do it, but do NOT interfere with those whos basic belief system is different!"

Yeah, yeah....I know..."but it is MURDER of an innocent soul!!"...of course my suggestion will be shouted down by those who **believe** in souls and their sanctity, but the operative word here is 'belief', and it simply makes no sense to allow one religious system to dictate policy to those who are not adherents.

Now, I submit, THIS is what makes me a 'liberal'...that is, the very idea that there are few, if any, absolutes that can be imposed on people just because the current court, congress, or President wants to!

I also realize that just sorting out and defining what issues ARE fair game for voting, and to what level, would be almost impossible on a practical level, simply because the discussion would be carried on by people with agendas and vested interests in the 'morality' or the money involved.......................and....you see what happens? When attempting to define 'conservative', the issues of control of money and adherence to certain moral views arise over & over. No matter which side you are on, you MUST confront these issues, if only to deny that they are relevant......but if they need denying, then they ARE relevant!

Society NEEDS laws and rules in order to function--which is what our Constution was designed to provide the basis for.....but as good as it is, it cannot prevent individuals and groups from interpreting it to suit their own prejudices and emotional leanings.

I think that a major distinction (in my own not-so-humble view) between liberals and conservatives, is how they process their own internal thoughts and to what degree they employ subjective or objective analysis to come to their conclusions....Is this a useful distinction? Well......I think so....but you see, I am mostly a liberal, and.......

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 03 - 01:07 PM

"Liberalism", on the other hand, assumes that the "little people" who wash the laundry and fix the cars, bake the bread etc. are incompetent to make significant decisions in their lives or to take care of themselves or their families adequately. They are "like children" (a similar assumption was made by the Plantation Owners in the South towards Blacks at one time) and need to be "looked out for" by a more enlightened, benificient elite; "The Government".

--Uncle Jaque

Being one who considers myself a liberal, I think I'll respond to this mischaracterization.

Liberals are realists. We know that free-market economics is a good system in theory. But we also know that the US has never actually had a free-market economic system, and that in the system we do have, those with the most power and money are the ones who get the preferential treatment.

We know that with the absence of a free-market system, with a system based on corporate welfare and the military-industrial complex, the little guys need someone who will help them make the playing field a little less uneven in order to simply survive.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: wilco
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 09:40 AM

Count me as one "conservative" in US.
    "Liberals" get a lot of mileage out of being biased and narrow-minded. They like to think that they are the fountain of all goodness in the world. That's a very convenient and immature perspective.
      I am a full-time volunteer housing developer, who develops hosuing programs for disabled people, most of whom are mentally ill.
I do this for non-profits, and I don't get paid a dime. I've been doing it for ten years. there are many, amny conservatives like myself, whose interests are the public good. That's not the exclusive domain of the "liberal."

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:00 AM

I tend not to think of myself in terms of political definitions> But one political thing I have observed , and I may be wrong or simply turn in a narrow circle; Many of the people I know who describe themselves as "liberal" seem to have swallowed others ideas, political correctmess and so on. They don"t seem to have the ability, often, to draw conclusions of their own. It is as though it were some kind of new age fad. Is it just me, or is there a grain of truth in this

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Fred Miller
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:25 AM

I think there's certainly fashionable liberalism, of course, because it's generally supposed to be forward-looking and all, and plenty of it makes no thought-out sense. It's ready to wear. I think you do see more of it, at least in my lifetime, than the same sort of thing in a conservative line, because, you know, that's your father's oldmobile, it isn't showy or rebellious or something. That's not to say that the conservative views you encounter are terribly thought out, it's just harder to market them that way to fashionable people.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:37 AM

Libertarian. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:40 AM

What a stupid question...

i guess it was an American who started it.

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 10:45 AM

Here I think I am a conservative and on the Marine Forum I'm a hard core liberal - go figure. I think it is perspective -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 12:34 PM

Aahh!; This is just like the good old days... sort of.

Before re-opening this thread I strapped on the Kevlar and Nomex boxers, just to be on the safe side - expecing the usual response after having pitched my "Conservative" pet skunk into the "Liberal" locker-room just for fun.

Actually, it hasn't been all that bad... so far.

So let's see, here;

Ebbie; are we having fun yet? Lord knows we used to, eh? I hope the term "Lord" does not overly offend you, Deah. };^{)~

Guest Fred; a thoughtfull response, and appreciated.
There is one "Conservative Thinker" whom I think you may have overlooked; Rush Limbaugh. OK; you can can the jeering, hissing and booing now, everybody - I'm well aware of the popular PC opinion of the man and need not be reminded. Yet in spite of his bellicose shtick and tounge-in-cheek arrogance, Rush is probably one of the most influencial and respected Conservative idealologists in America today.
I don't agree 100% with all of his opinions or ideas, but then he does not expect us to. He regularly encourages his listeners to observe, anylize, and think critically before arriving at any political conclusion. He espouses Conservatism not because it is popular, but because it makes sense to him. If you think that he is a shill for the Republican Party or President Bush, then you have not heard him question and critisize same for many of their actions of late, including the "Campaign Finance Reform" Act the President signed, despite serious questions as to it's compromise of the First Ammendment.
I might reccomend going to his Website:

RUSH LIMBAUGH:

...and give him a fair hearing before passing judgement.

My dissertation of distinctives represents my own understanding; I did not cut and paste it from anyone else, as C's are encouraged to do our own thinking as much as possible. They are ideals, not actuals;
how well I know that even under the most "C" Administrations, abuses and inequities abound, and still do. They are by no means universally accepted within the Republican Party; despite allegations that both Parties slavishly follow the Party line, we have it from a former Republican State House Majority Leader (does not happen very often here in Maine)that leading Republicans is like trying to direct "a herd of cats".

I would never accuse either of Maine's "Republican" Senators, for instance, of being the least bit socially "Conservative", although on a relative basis, they might be somewhat economicly conservative.


As to:

"...I jsut always wondered how this couild be justified
and why it is often so that people who are
"pro life" also are "pro death"(penalty)
-it does not make sense to me."

Don't wear a bald spot scratching your head, there, openmike.

It has to do with the concept of "Innocence". Can you think of any human being who could qualify for the status of absoloutly innocent?
How about those who have never seen MTV... never known or seen abuse; never heard a curse... because they have not even been born into this sortid World yet?

And yet you still advocate for the destruction of the innocent while extending clemency to the guilty? Now I'd really like to know how THAT "makes sense", Mate!

Now we can get off on this "Choice" thing all Month long, and no doubt there is a thread somewhere still raging on it. I have been admonished by Senior Officials in the Republican Party that as an Activist, I am not to even mention this issue, much less get into discussions about it.

Phooey!

Abortion is ripping the American culture and it's institutions right down the middle every bit as much as SLAVERY did in the early to mid - 1800s. I pray that it's resolution will not cost the lives of over 660,000 Americans as Slavery did, but we cannot be too certain.

Abortion is tearing apart, or seriously straining, the integrity of many of our most foundational institutions; our Government; Churches / Synagogs/Temples, and all too often, Families.

All right then; I haven't got all night to chase this around again; so let me put it to you this way:

I'm going to propose two hypothetical statements, both of which I think are fairly representative of the supporters of slavery during the 1850's and Abortion (err.. "Choice") today. You should be able to determine which is which.

1.: "You gots to treat dem Niggers like livestock; dey ain't really "Human", y' know.

2.: "Don't worry, Mary; it only a lump of "tissue"; it isn't a real "Baby" yet, you know."

Anybody see a corellation, here?

Yes; you in the back with the mandolion and the funny hat...

Very good!; The common denominator here is "Humanity".
Which is denied by others with power to the Slave as well as to the Unborn.

Can we really justify doing that?
Now I see that some of you here are not at all sure as to whether a fetus has a "Soul" or not... but my God, folks; do WE?

I've got to take a break, but will see if I have time later to address more of the issues raised here. In the meantime, keep thinking... keep searching.

UJ in ME

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Beccy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 01:31 PM

Well, hellloooo Uncle Jacques.
I'll put a name to my post now. Thank you to everyone who responded to my post. You've been (for the most part) articulate and polite. To those of you who couldn't resist the cheap shot ("...What a stupid question... blah blah... American... blah blah...") I offer my pity.
I'd like to address the people who scoffed at the conservationist tendencies that I referenced. First, do you ever discuss this with conservatives? Do you REALLY think they would like to see all natural resources used up, sullied, plundered, mutated/mutilated, etc? Conservatism, I would posit, is based on the conservation of that which is good in humanity and the world at large. "Omnia probate quod bonum est tenete" to those of you for whom "Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes" holds meaning. For those of you who are now mocking me mercilessly, try everything and keep that which is good- to paraphrase loosely. We have a responsibility as humans not to turn a blind eye to history but to weigh what we have learned against the circumstances in which we find ourselves currently. I think Conservatives do a better job of this than do liberals.
As for Folk music being socialist intrinsically. I can't buy that. Does that mean that only Socialists can compose on the dobro? Nah. I would believe it if you told me that most folk musicians you know are decidedly not Conservative... but I do hold out hope.
Break out the G.K. Chesterton and keep the discussion going. I'm enjoying this!

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Beccy
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 01:39 PM

By the bye, Uncle Jacques. You'd best keep those Kevlar undies on for the responses to your last post. I think you're about to get a couple of punches delivered below the belt. Not only did you make a succinct argument about abortion being similar to slavery, you used the Robert Byrd word to make a point. Guard your vitals!

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 02:37 PM

Here's a philosophical question for the ones putting themselves in the "conservative" camp.

Here's an article about former Chief Economist of the World Bank, Joe Stiglitz. My question is this: just for the sake of this discussion, let's say that everything that Mr. Stiglitz has said in this article is true. In such a circumstance, what would conservatives/Conservatives have to say about these types of practices?

Subject: RE: BS: Any conservatives on Mudcat?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 06 Jan 03 - 03:58 PM

I seem to recall a quote from ol' "Senator Sam" (extra points for the last name) about conservatives and liberals:

"A Conservative will see a drowning man some fifty feet from the river bank, throw him twenty-five feet of rope and demand he swim the other twenty-five feet. The Liberal will throw him one hundred feet of rope, with both ends."

On a personal note; as a "compassionate conservative", I do believe I would throw him enough rope to reach the bank, then tie the rope to a large rock. However, if in the course of events, I found out the drowning man was a voting liberal, I'd throw him the rock also...