BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 01:43 PM

McGrath of Harlow said, in part:

Once again, even if the legal process may have been artificially and even perversely extended, it had been extended. Otherwise all processes in all courts would have ceased, and they hadn't.

In essence, as I see it, M of H, you are saying that as long as one party chooses to keep filing papers with courts (no matter with how little or actually no merit legally), everything has to be put on hold.

Anyone can file a complaint or a petition with a court; there's no filter that says the paper actually has to have factual or legal merit. I can file a complaint against George Bush, claiming that he physically assaulted me. It's not true (I'm sure you'll be relieved to learn), but I can file the suit. It will take a while before the court deals with it. That delay should not hold up anything else, unless there is some apparent possibility of my carrying the burden of proof. Possibly not then. After my suit is defeated--or indeed, maybe thrown out of court as frivolous--I can file another one, which will take some time to deal with.

The fact that there are and may continue to be legally and factually groundless complaints filed is not significant.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:07 PM

Amos opined:

Those who never have see only deathful blackness as her fate and are understandably outraged at such a possibility. The idea of slipping into permanent unbeing is horrible and compelling; but it ain't so. To them, living as a vegetable is better than the not-existing of death. Any sensation is better than no sensation.

Not so. I see death as a pure end, "deathful blackness" in your words. (Actually I'd prefer the word "blankness" to "blackness". Even that word implies a mind to perceive it, but I guess we're bound to verbal expression here, and I don't know how to express anything like that when I as a mind just do not exist. I am as convinced as is possible that there is nothing further when the operations of the body no longer make consciousness operate. Just the same, I agree with Terri: If I'm in a situation like that, pull the plug, remove the tube or whatever. Both for myself (if a chemical process being forced to continue operation can be called "me") and as a kindness to my friends and loved ones, get it over.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM

I do not know all the details of this case, but I am sure it is almost impossible to obey any form of the Hippocratic Oath, and condone what is happening here. Her privacy, and the families privacy, have been totally compromised. The doctors and nurses are suffering trauma, trying to comply with all the legislation and diverse wishes of the family. The only time I have seen the patient, she seems to have some sort of brain activity. To starve her to death is not in my mind an act of kindness. Doctors can sometimes be wrong about the level brain activity present. I doubt if many people would want to exist in any vegetative state, a Do Not Resucitate order would be appropriate, and even turning off machines that provide breathing and heart functions would be a fast death, but the very thought of her starving and dehydrating is appaling to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: EagleWing
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:22 PM

the very thought of her starving and dehydrating is appaling to me.

If you had fully read this and the other threads on the subject you would realise that this is not the issue.

When a person is dying the need for food and water switch off. What has been happening is that her ability to switch off has been denied by artificially feeding her. And that has been the case for many years.

Frank L.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 02:54 PM

Dear Frank, Food and water is a very basic human need, (I have to tube feed my own daughter) In the case of Terri whatever happened to her body/brain did not kill her; only her ability to communicte her wishes, and her ability to feed herself was lost. Death would be ensured without nutrition, and in a most horrible manner. In my opinion (I am very familiar with death by stavation having seen much of it in third world countries) kindness would be a massive dose of morphine, but illegal for anyone in our system to administer; and that is the issue for me legislated starvation is not in my opinion a humane death for anyone.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Once Famous
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 03:01 PM

Guys like this Eagle Wing character think it's OK to starve a woman but a crime to starve a dog.

Typical double standard found in the far left liberal diseased mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 03:21 PM

Dave (tam), it's nice to see you here again. In the case of Terri Schiavo, there is not much left of her brain, mostly just the stem and a lot of spinal fluid filling the space where the rest of her brain used to be. The doctors who have been involved with this case for many years have said that she is not reponsive. The little bit of footage you have seen is just about all there is among the many hours of footage that exist in which she doesn't just blankly stare off into space, and the doctors have determined that what looks like responsiveness in the footage you have seen is not what it appears to be. That is why the state she is in is called "persistant vegetative state". The only brain activity they have been able to detect is what is required to keep the heart pumping and other autonomic nervous system and reflexive activity.

I am sorry to read that your daughter is having to be fed through a tube. I don't know the circumstances you and your daughter are facing, but I wish you the best of luck with everything, and my best thoughts and wishes go to you and your family for whatever help and comfort you and they need at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 04:23 PM

CT Scan of Terri Schiavo's Brain, 1996

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 04:53 PM

We progress in time and technology but with little wisdom.

Other Mudcatters have posted similar situations and experiences. They all acted with loving compassion on behalf of their family members. To use cold logic should be a function of a legal system only when there is no loving family to act on our behalf. Where there is disagreement amongst the family (and apparently some medical experts involved in this case) they should err on the side of the Hippocratic teachings and do no harm... To do otherwise is not acting in a humane and dignified manner for the patient or the living family members who are also casualties/victims.

Terri is brain dead therefore feeling no pain that we know of, she cannot suffer the mental and physical trauma her parents are living with. There is a duty to respect their wishes, and protect what little sanity they can muster in such circumstances. There will come a time when the inevitable happens and she will pass on completely, therefore there is no need to rush the event. Our thoughts and prayers should go out to them, and to all involved with making these difficult decisions.

God, Grant them all the wisdom to act, and peace to live with the consequences.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 05:01 PM

That is a lovely post, Dave.

In this case, however, it is the husband who has the most rights and also the most responsibilities with regard to Terri and how her own wishes in this matter might best be carried out. And that is what the courts have determined consistantly throughout this whole ordeal.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 05:11 PM

I would never leave such a responsibility to one person, it is an onerous task for anyone. As a parent, I would never say her parents have no right to a say in her fate. Where there was disagreement amongst the family, the State has taken a stand, wether we agree with it or not it has happened. May we all learn from it, and progress as much in wisdom as we have in time and technology.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Mar 05 - 07:21 PM

Well, as fir death being blackness? Hey, no one can say one way or another but I don't *believe* it to be that way, but quite the opposite... But again, that is my *belief*... Others may wish to think of death in black and dark terms but those of Faith know in their hearts it's just not so...

You want proof? I don't have. Nor do those who think of death as darkness...

Some really nice posts here today as Terry's body gets closer to being released... Just symbolically I'm kind a hopin' the body is released on Easter. That would be real nice and just might be somewhat heeling for those who have become so emotionally involved, on both sides of the issue...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: ejsant
Date: 26 Mar 05 - 06:32 AM

Greetings All,

What if indeed Terri wished for her life not to be sustained whilst in this state? If indeed this is the case and she, as has been contended, does indeed have some level of awareness of her circumstances, then think about the mental anguish and torture she may be going through.

I would think that if indeed Terri wished to have her life sustained through scientific means regardless of her state of physical or mental ability and she indeed has some level of awareness she is also going through a great deal of mental anguish and torture knowing that her life is not being sustained.

This is why I cannot have an opinion about the merits of either side in this particular case. I simply do not posses the wisdom necessary. To "err on the side of life" may cause suffering as may erring on the side of "right to die".

This ethical conundrum to me is a direct effect of man's (species not gender) ego interfering in the design and balance when we do not, and in my opinion will never, have the necessary wisdom or understanding.

I pray that the Lord brings peace to Terri, her whole family, and all on all sides of this issue that have invested their emotions in the compassionate way they have.

Peace,
Ed