BS: Vegetative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...

Subject: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 10:32 PM

Well gol danged....

Looks as if a brain dead woman in Florida has found her way into the US government, perhaps even bringint the entire Congree back into session to act to save her "vegatative" state of life.

Like, hmmmmmmmm? I thought that Congress was there to serve the American people who aren't brain dead??? Silly me. 44,000,000 Americans without health insurance. Declining wages of the average American worker. Big tax cuts to those who don't work and here we are putting out attentiomn an a woman who is brain dead???

Ahhh, like if these "right to lifers" would put a little attention into improving the chances of some kid in projects right to a real life then maybe I'd have some sympathy fir their cause... But they couldn't care less about that kid, very much alive, i the project...

No, rather than invest somethin in the living they'd rather stake their claim to a woman who has been brain dead fir 15 years???

Like would any of you Bush-heads like to explain why a brain dead white woman id more important to you than avery much alive black kid from the projects???

Yeah, waitin on yer comments.....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:11 PM

Yew iz makin' fur too much sense tonight, my friend Bo-bare.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:20 PM

Every life is important Bobert. I read your posts. I know that you know that. Terri Schiavo's is no less important than anyone else's, nor is it more important.

This whole affair seems to revolve around a couple of key questions.

1) Is she really brain dead, or just severely mentally disabled?
   If it's the latter, then the State of Florida is embarking on a
   journey I don't wish to join, down a really slippery slope
   (i.e. just how dumb do you gotta be before it's OK to kill
   you?). We all saw the lack of morality displayed by the State of
   Florida in November of 2004. We didn't trust them then, why
   should we trust them now?
   

2) Who is ultimately going to set public policy in Florida?
   This seems as much a battle of wills between the legislature and
   the judiciary as any thing else.

3) Why is her husband so intent on ending her life?
   My nose says "follow the money". As I understand it, he stands to
   profit greatly from settlements awarded that were intended to
   provide for her care, but which go to him upon her death.

Now, I'm no brain-dead BushieHead (well ok, brain dead sometimes, but definately no Bushite) but I do find this case fascinating. I don't however, think that my fascination should be interpreted as a value judgement that her life is any more important than a life lived in poverty, despair and hardship by someone of a different skin color.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:25 PM

3) no, I believe the settlements were spent out for her care, long ago, and that he has turned down the cool million her parents offered to transfer her care to them.

I believe he and many others see it as a patient rights situation-- does she have the right to refuse care, as she apparently stated to several people would be her desire, under this sort of circumstances. Yes it is grim and messy-- but how many people of her age at the time of injury would have had such in writing?

No right answers-- it's all tragedy. But she married him and in our society, spouses become the decision makers when incapacitation requires someone make a decision.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:42 PM

amen sister susan.....


I agree with you 100% on this one. W, Jeb and the congress have been, in my opinion, showboating this case to grab a few headlines. And that, coming from me, really pisses me off. It's all about spousal rights and nothing else. The supreme court was right to not get involved in the dealings of the Florida courts on this issue.


Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Auggie (Gotta find that Cookie)
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:44 PM

If you're certain Susan, then I stand corrected. It just seems to me that both sides(except perhaps for the parents) have a myriad of interests, mostly selfish, beyond what is best for the patient. And if nothing else, the case should serve as a good poke in the ribs with a sharp stick to those (of any age) who haven't a living will.

While I (hopefully) properly value the sanctity of life, I know I sure didn't work a lifetime at a job I dislike just to see my life-savings go to fill the coffers of some hospital. My children have been instructed that when that time comes, they are to load me on my motorcycle one last time, lock the throttle wide open, and point me at the nearest tree or cliff (life insurance policy with double indemnity for accidental death). Failing that, there is always the Living Will to fall back on.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:52 PM

I only know that I wouldn't want to be kept alive in that state, even if I were more or less mentally comptetent. And, it's not really about 'killing' her...it's about allowing her to die. Lethal injection would be killing...pulling the plugs is allowing. I don't understand her parents position on this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:06 AM

So, is starving her to death by pulling the feeding tube "Allowing her to die?"
Or is it actively killing her?
No one has proven that she's brain dead, by he way.
Severely retarded, yes; brain-dead, no.
OK, now, who's going to be the first to propose killing the rest of retarded folks if this one is allowed?
Eugenics, anyone?

Seamus

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Troll
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:06 AM

Well, the Congress has really stepped in this time. By issuing a supoena (sp?) for her to appear to "testify", which tactic puts the un-plugging on hold, they have opened the door for the death penalty opponents to use the same tactic.

As a general rule, the right-to-lifers favor the death penalty while the pro-aborters swing the other way.

Peoples is truly the kwaaaaaziest monkeys.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: DougR
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 01:20 AM

Bobert: a strange postion for one who professes to be so concerned about human life.

The lady in question is not brain dead evidently. So you want to kill her?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Dave'swife
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:39 AM

Because I once wrote about a an early case such as this, I have followed this case for some time and its pretty amazing to see how very little actual truth of the story gets reported by the Media who seem to only be able to cast this as two extreme positions. I call it.. "The Cross-fire-ization of American discourse". The reality is very murky.

Both the husband and the parents have greatly exaggerated their case in appearances on TV, leaving most people bewildered. First off, she's not Brain DEAD, she's brain DAMAGED and that was as a result of what some people would consider suicidual behavior. She had an eating disorder and was binging/purging. She so screwed up the electrolyte balance in her body that her heart stopped, depriving her brain of oxygen and leaving her in the semi-vegitative state she is in now.

There are doctors who say she is conscious of her suroundings and just as many who say she is not; that her higher brain functioning that would permit that has been wiped out. She does make vocalizations which her parents swear is an attempt to communicate. Neurologists say that is pure fantasy. Her parents say it is only her husband claiming she had stated she did not want to be kept alive by artificial means, but in reality there were several witnesses who reported those conversations as being sincere and adamament. Her parents say her husband wants top profit, but the courts don't agree with that characterization.

Basically it's a big old mess and I have no opinion one way or another. If it WAS her wish to not be kept alive this way..I hope there's an afterlife so all that are prolonging this can PAY. If she did not say these things..I hope there is an afterlife so those her want to snuff her out early can Pay.

The whole money motive is also murky. If, as the parents claim, there is loads of money somewhere set aside for her care and that whomever has custody of her gets their mitts on the dough..then don't THEY have a profit motive in seeking physical custody?

I think the real tragedy is that this ever had to go to court in the first place. You'd think of both sides of this case really loved her as they say, they would have worked something out. I do know that if something like that ever happened to me, I'd want my husband and ONLY my husband to decide what to do. As much as I love my paents, I know them too well and I know that my wishes wouldn't mean squat.

I am amazed at the amount of government intervention and expenditure on this case. We can't get congress to spend one extra freakin' minute in session to try and reign in our debt, but they can risk dragging them all back in for this poor woman's case? They even supbeoned her to 'tesify'! Talk about abuse of the system.

Congress just preserved all the loopholes for rich people in their 'bankruptcy reform' package and made it harder for the 90% of truly broke people who don't abuse Bankruptcy filing to ever get to file.

We have 8 hours of live TV coverage of millionaires taking steroids but nobody addresses the fact that at last report, 1 in 12 9th graders have used inhalants such as Glue and Shoe Polish to get high. That's more than teens who have tried MJ!

I just see on TV a govt. report that shows Americans wast something like one and a half BILLION dollars a year by throwing away edible food and that at least HALF that food could be redirected without a great deal of effort to programs for the hungry like Second harvest and to after-school food programs. Good lord, why not have hearings and special sessions on THAT?

Ah well...I'm praying for the woman. She needs it.

I'm done now!

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: ejsant
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:43 AM

Greetings All,

To me this is simply a case of abuse of legislative power. Our system of governance has been perverted by those that wish to impose their way upon others. There have been hours and hours of Judicial (our system's legislative adjudication process) time dedicated to this question. A decision has been made. For Congress to attempt to circumvent that process is not only an abuse of their power it is a blatant acquiescence to an interest group.

I do not know the facts of this case and I would suggest that very few really do. Our process has been followed. The fact that a minority interest is not pleased with the final decision should not be allowed as a cause to circumvent an established method of governance irrespective of which side of the question they represent.

I firmly believe that our "conventional" medical system is little more that a system of commerce so therefore it is difficult for me to believe that there is little other than financial motives on the part of the care providers. I am not referring to those individuals that care for this woman on a day to day basis personally. I am, however, referring to the institution and it's managers.

That said, I have given rather specific instructions to my bride, my children, and friends that if I were ever so ill that I required this type of treatment, temporarily or otherwise, they are to take me out to the woods, set me down beneath a Weeping Willow tree alongside a pond, kiss me one last time, and walk away.

To my way of thinking a greater power then we initiated my journey here and I have every confidence in submitting to this power's determination as to when my walk over.

Peace,
Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:24 AM

I was thinking yesterday that if I started a thread about this situation, I'd title it, "Dear Terri, I'm Sorry."

Sorry no one really knows what's right and is operating on reactive emotion;

Sorry your privacy has been so invaded;

Sorry it's taking so long to let you go;

Sorry it's not taking long enough to decide this really well;

..........


Stuff like that. No, not "sorry" as a personal responsibility exactly-- except that as voting members of a society we all bear some responsibility here-- not fault, but responsibility...

What I thought was that really, being filled with regret about every aspect of this is just about the only "right" response.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:28 AM

Seems logical to me that congress would get involved, most of them are vegetables too.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:34 AM

From Auggie above:

We all saw the lack of morality displayed by the State of Florida in November of 2004. We didn't trust them then, why should we trust them now?

Please explain? Are you referring to Bush v Kerry? I was not aware that the State (with a capital "s") of Florida had any bearinng in the outcome in 2004. 2000, maybe... If you meant it with a small "s", referring to Floridians in general, this Floridian (who voted for Kerry) is offended.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: kendall
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:36 AM

Why is it that the pro life types are unable to understand the difference between pro choice and pro abortion?
I am not in favor of abortion, (it is a personal decision having nothing to do with me)

I am at the same time AGINST the government telling women what to do with their own bodies. What is so hard to understand?

As Clinton said "I'd like to see abortion made affordable, safe and unnecessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:35 AM

Amazing isn't it, all this about one tragic U.S.life, meanwhile in Iraq....

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,another guest
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:40 AM

I thought the same when we saw Bush fawning over the McCartney sisters. Some people really need to get their own house in order before they start interfering where they are not wanted. But of course interefring has become the great american trait, kind of takes the eye of what they are involved in elsewhere, that being the wholesale slaughter of thoudands of innocent civilians and kids, not to mention the systematic abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 08:46 AM

Well, one last thought this morning before I leave for my weekly DC blues jam...

... Seems that the Bush-heads argue on one hand that they don't want Big Brother meadling in their affairs but since Bush took office all I see is more and more of just that... Next thing you know they'l be outlawing plaid shirts 'er sandals 'er........

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:13 AM

By reading this thread, you can instantly tell where people get their misinformation from--and a whole lot of you are watching cable news for your information, because you are spouting exactly what I heard last night as I channel surfed those 24/7 cable news programs you all watch to get your lies straight.

For the record:

1. The parents are Right to Life activists, and are using their daughter as a political football to further the Right to Life agenda.

2. The courts, at every level of the appeals for the past decade, brought in their own neurologists who are experts in the field and not in any way related to either the husband or the parents, to evaluate the medical condition of the woman. All of them universally agreed the woman is brain dead, and that the parents are simply refusing to accept that diagnosis. But there is no question about the woman's state. She is brain dead. She no longer has a cerebral cortex. Not that any of you lot know what that means, of course...you all saw the pictures of her "smiling" at her mummy on the TV.

3. Removal of feeding and hydration tubes does not cause pain, and isn't "starving her to death". But this is exactly what the real issue is that is being fought over by the Right to Lifers. THEY want to determine when you die, and to be able to override your wishes, or overrule your family member acting on your behalf with legal standing. This is one more case of the radical right forcing their political agenda down the throats of the nation.

4. The latest polling I've seen shows an overwhelming majority of the American public being on the side of the husband, not the parents. As in over 80%. Which begs the question: why did the Right to Life movement pick this case? Answer: Florida.

5. I am hopeful that all the other courts where the appeals will be filed, will follow the lead of the US Supreme Court, and refuse to hear any more appeals. Then we'd have some small reassurance that our system of justice hasn't been completely hijacked by the right wing Republican zealots in this country. Yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: ejsant
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:18 AM

"... Seems that the Bush-heads argue on one hand that they don't want Big Brother meadling in their affairs but since Bush took office all I see is more and more of just that... Next thing you know they'l be outlawing plaid shirts 'er sandals 'er........"

Greetings Bobert,

It seems to me that neither party can point that finger at the other. The unfortunate part is that upon review of the election turn out here and its comparison to the number of eligible voters I come to the conclusion that only minority interests are promoted. 50% of 60% is 30%, certainly not a majority by any standard. Well perhaps it is with-in some standard concocted by the party leaders. I have heard the term "Mandate" bantered about quite often in my time on the planet.

One last thought (random as it may be); The last time in our history I am aware of the reference to colors of States was made they were Blue and Gray (order chosen only due to alphabetical arrangement).

Enjoy the music and the day.

Peace,
Ed

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:44 AM

People should be TERRIFIED of this intervention by the Republican zealots in the US Congress. What they are talking about doing as a result of this case, is passing federal legislation that would make it illegal to remove feeding and hydration tubes--and not just from patients in a permanent vegetative state, but also people who have battled diseases like emphysema, cancer, stroke, etc. who wish to have the respirators removed so they can die.

I'm not certain of this number, but I think I heard in the last several days nearly 250,000 patients, either on their own or through their legal guardian, who made the decision to have life support technology removed from their bodies so they could die, would be impacted by such a law.

It would also take the legal right of "next of kin" to act as legal guardians on our behalf away from us as individuals, and put those powers in the hands of the state, to be carried out in accordance with the wishes of the Right to Life movement's agenda.

So, all those for having this guy in charge of their end of life medical care decisions, keep voting Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 09:47 AM

From the Dictionary at LaborLawTalk:

"Although some have proposed that loss of neo-cortical function should be termed "brain death", the term as used clinically includes loss of both cortex and brainstem function."

I don't see how the doctors "universally agreed the woman is brain dead", because she isn't. She has a functioning brain stem which regulates her heartbeat and respiration.

There is enough misinformation to go around. She's not brain dead, she's not in a coma, and starvation doesn't cause pain. I don't believe there's any purpose in keeping her alive in this grotesque manner besides using the poor woman as a sympathy-attracting object to bash around the court system.

This is not about what's best for the people directly involved anymore. It's about how much political carrion the vultures can tear from it.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 10:26 AM

I stand corrected by your legal definition of "brain dead". However, medical definitions are more fluid, and much more complex.

And then there is the "general usage" in everyday language of the term "brain dead".

This woman's cerebral cortex wouldn't even qualify as mush: it is liquid. Some parts of her brain ARE dead, some parts (the part of the brain which rules respiration) aren't.

But you miss the point, like everyone else is. WHO IS WAGING THIS COURT BATTLE AND WHAT DO THEY STAND TO GAIN?

The answer is the right wing extremist anti-abortion movement, and they hope to overturn nearly 20 years of progress in end of life care, the use of living wills and advance care directives legislation that protects individuals and families from these "religious" zealots taking control of our medical decision making rights as individuals, and replacing them with state and federal laws that control who gets to die when, and forces medical interventions and procedures on individuals whether they want them or not.

Now, why do you suppose the mainstream media isn't reporting those "facts" about this case? Answer: they need to kowtow to the Republican right agenda, in order to keep their grip on power over OUR airwaves.

And anybody who doesn't think this is a Republican party agenda doesn't know much about right wing zealotry in the US. Christian fundamentalist zealots don't join the Democratic party. They have, however, successfully taken over the Republican party, with their #1 religious zealot as president of the US.

BTW, in case you all haven't heard. The US Supreme Court refused to hear the appeal filed by the US House of Representatives group (ie Tom DeLay & his boys). I am guessing their refusal to hear the appeal, along with the Florida judge's ruling, will now end the appeal cycle by the parents. No judge in his right mind will go against the US Supreme Court. Of course, it is obvious there are a number of extremist right wing judges, particularly in the south, who aren't in their right minds, but in their Christian zealot ones, otherwise this case never would have seen the light of day.

The Florida legislature has, rightfully and sanely, refused to get involved in this case for a second time, because the last time they tried to intervene in the judicial branches business by passing "Terri's Law" they were promptly slapped down for it by an angry judiciary.

So now, it is just a matter of time before the woman dies, thankfully and mercifully for her and her husband, and depriving the National Right to Life Movement, Operation Rescue, et al of their current political football.

And as to the cable news network coverage. I found it highly ironic when watching CNN last night, when the reporter on the ground was asked how many "protestors" there were at the nursing home where Schiavo is a resident, answered that the numbers were very, very small: around 50 people during the day, and down to less than 10 by sundown.

You'd expect a bit more of a groundswell wouldn't you, if there was any sort of authentic public outcry over this issue? It also speaks volumes about the ability of the extreme right wing Republican movement to take over and monopolize the cable news and talk radio airwaves with their agenda, and conveniently keep the real news from getting through.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 10:28 AM

BTW, use of the term "starving her to death" is a talking point being used by the Right to Life activists you are seeing on tv--which includes the parents and siblings of the woman, their lawyers, and their cadre of people available for media interviews.

Ironic too, that they have so much time to spend with the media, when there is so little time left to spend with their beloved Terri...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Auggie
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 11:33 AM

Bee-dubya-ell

I was indeed referring to 2000 (Bush v. Gore), not 2004-my mistake- and I meant it with a capital S.

I don't mind being occassionally regarded as offensive, but only when it's my intent. Such was not the case this time, however, if you're still offended you can perhaps find some solace in that I'm off to shovel about 10 inches of new snow from my driveway. I wish to hell I were in Florida right about now.

Regards,

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,CAH
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 11:52 AM

Any time I've ever heard anyone talk about being a "right to lifer" I'm stuck by the fact that all they're really interested in is THEIR right to decide who lives and who dies...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:08 PM

This morning, on Good Morning America (or whatever the name of that morning show is), Tom DeLay said that this judge (Greer, the Florida judge who has presided over this case since the initial filing of the husband in 1998 to have the feeding tube removed) "has been trying to kill Terri for 4 1/2 years."

I never cease to be amazed at what the right wing zealots are getting away with in this country right now. It is beyond belief that such a high ranking member of the US Congress would make such an incendiary, utterly irresponsible statement about a member of the judiciary--especially in the wake of the recent killings of judges and judges' family members, and in light of the fact that it is Randall Terry & the Operation Rescue crew that is on the ground in Floriday, handing out the judge's home address at the nursing home protest. He and Operation Rescue were successfully prosecuted under racketeering laws for doing the same thing at abortion clinics.

So, now we can expect to wade through these "religious" thugs on our way to visit mom and dad in the nursing home?

BTW, Greer, the Fla judge, is said to be under police protection right now in an unknown location, because those wonderful "right to life" folks have been issuing a whole lot of death threats against him and to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:42 PM

I wish GUEST had the courage of her convictions and would assume a member name or thread ID. It detracts from her arguments to pot in barbs without some form of identification. Plus I haven't seen any references or citations.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:47 PM

Don't even go there robomatic follower of all that is right wing conspiracy driven, or I'll fuckin' blue clickey your ass into a parallel universe.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 03:09 PM

A HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA






I don't get it


You've proven nothing and weakened your own cause. Click away, prove your point. This subject has already come up on a couple of other threads, which unfortunately weren't much better than this, but at least people had the guts to commit their names.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:07 PM

Apparently, the woman in the permanent vegetative state is now going to open the US government up again. The House and Senate have reached a compromise, and according to Reuters, will convene at 5:00 p.m. EST today, for a vote for the federal government to intervene in this case.

I am fucking horrified at the implications of this--with nearly all the people of the US opposed to it and supporting removal of the tube no less!

And the Democrats sealed the deal for the right wing Nazis!

But ya know what Bobert? Ain't nobody talkin' about DeLay's ethics investigation, are they?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:08 PM

I'll fuckin' blue clickey your ass into a parallel universe.

I'm not going to comment on whether this GUEST has a point, or whether robomatic has a point, and/or which one is more/less/equally valid in this context, if at all. I just want to say I think that is a really great line, and I might have to borrow it sometime (just for fun, mind you).

On the subject of the thread, I don't feel qualified to have an opinion except for this one... I have a living will, and I hope it is honored if the time ever comes for a decision like this one to be made. If it's my time to go, please let me go in peace in the kindest and most humane setting possible... preferably in a hospice situation. That is, if my first wish is not granted, which is to die peacefully in my sleep and not be a burden on anyone in my last days.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:19 PM

I>Removal of feeding and hydration tubes...isn't "starving her to death".

????

Of course it is, whether it's the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do.

The one certain thing about this situation is that the lady would cease to get the nourishment and liquids she requires to stay alive, and the the consequence would be, she dies.

Imagine a parallel situation, where a patient was mentally aware of what was happening, and had indicated a wish to live, but the hospital authorities wanted to pull the tubes to cut costs - would anyone dream of suggesting that removing feeding and hydration tubes in such a case would not amount to "starving her to death"?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:25 PM

Auggie said:


1) Is she really brain dead, or just severely mentally disabled?

The doctors taking care of her, who are in a position to know, say she's brain dead.

That being the case, we should not be talking about "woman" but about the body of a woman. The person called Terry Schiavo is gone; all that remains is a husk, artificially maintained, which is not the person.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:25 PM

If the Christian fundamentalists win this one CarolC, your living will is gonna be worth about as much as your toilet paper.

No coincidence that all this is being done on the weekend Congress has left Washington for spring recess, while DeLay and the boys are staying behind to push this through while nobody is looking. Same way they got the ANWR drilling stuck into the budget bill instead of having a vote up or down on it. And of course, those leading the charge are those with large constituencies of Christian fundies, and an eye on running for the presidency in '08...

Politicians are truly scum.

Glad ya liked the phrase CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:32 PM

You guys just don't understand that "Right-To-Life" only refers to those unborn and those who are incapable of functioning. (Or , in other terms, those who are incapable of voting against the Administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:56 PM

McGrath, you are ignoring the facts of what happens to the physical body when a person dies a natural death as a result of this sort of injury or illness, including when the person is fully conscious.

Do you call that "starving to death"? No, you don't. When a person voluntarily chooses to stop eating and drinking in order to allow their body to die, do you accuse them of committing suicide? No, you don't. Or when loved ones who assist the person in the process of dying don't force a feeding tube into them, do you call them "murderers"? No, you don't.

Yes, when food and hydration aren't given for long enough, the body dies. But the medical term for it isn't "starving to death". That is the Right to Life movement's term for it.

The medical profession refers to the state the body goes into while shutting down (when food and hydration isn't happening) as "ketosis" which is the same process the body undergoes when you diet to lose weight, when you fast for spiritual reasons, whatever.

So what does any of this have to do with "starving to death"? Dietary ketosis is a process whereby your body burns fat and turns it into a source of fuel called ketones. Ketones are produced whenever body fat is burned. When you burn a larger amount of fat than is immediately needed for energy, the excess ketones are discarded in the urine. When a person's body is shutting down because it is dying, the level of ketones simply builds up until the toxic level is reached, which causes the heart to stop. That is exactly what happened to this poor woman 15 years ago, when medical interventions began in an attempt to save her life.

No person in their right mind would say the medical interventions 15 years ago were wrong. The husband seems to be a stand up guy. Filed a malpractice lawsuit against the doctors who didn't catch that his wife's eating disorder was causing the damage to her body that it did, and the money being set aside to pay for her nursing home care. Had he been a shit, he could have just divorced her and walked away, leaving her a ward of the state. Instead, he went to bat for her, and has stuck by his guns that this is what SHE would have wanted him to do, every step of the way.

This case is being used as a political football by the Christian fundamentalists, and the politicians who rely upon them. There aren't even 50 people in Florida outside the nursing home right now, protesting the removal of the feeding tube, and according to the most recent polls, an overwhelming majority of Americans supports the removal of the feeding tube. The federal courts (all the way to the US Supreme Court--twice now) have refused to intervene in the case, and have consistently returned the case to the Florida courts, where it has been adjudicated as far as it can go.

This is being driven totally by Republican Christian fundamentalist politics. They see an opportunity to drive through federal legislation that will overturn two decades worth of living will and right to die legislation at the state levels, and are going for it.

The US Congress has NEVER intervened like this in the case of an individual. This is a violation of the separation of powers (ie the legislative branch is trying to overrule the judiciary). The precedent is being set that parents of adult children can intervene in medical cases like this, and the right of the spouse to act as legal guardian be overturned and thrown out.

This is a huge stinking mess, and it is a huge stinking mess because of politician and media whore scum who created an echo chamber beating the drums on the airwaves this week.

It is simply appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 04:57 PM

Amazing that ten thousand women and children destroyed by Allied fire in Iraq do not stir the conscience of our Senate a whit, while the death of one vegetable-state woman to which the administration points as a poster-person warrants all this PR and press. It is to spit.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST,Vinnie
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:21 PM

I would say the same thing Amos, only substitute the words "destroyed by fire" with "destroyed by abortion."

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 05:56 PM

Some women do use abortion as a means of birth control. Then say it's their body and their right. How sick is that?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:05 PM

GUEST: I noticed you didn't have anything to follow up on your 'great line'. Still awaiting backup of your anonymous assertions.

Carol: I hope you never need it, but the paperwork is only a 'rough guide' and with all the complications of modern medicine, one's specific condition may not be so addressed. So just as important is the need to specify a "health care proxy" a person who can be your voice when you dont have one.

One who has been there.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:06 PM

Sorry boys, but your lame ass attempts to deflect the direction the conversation is going, which is clearly against the Right to Lifers who have shoved their agendas down the throats of the Schiavos and this nation, with snide remarks about the immorality of women who have abortions, ain't gonna fly.

This matter has not a fucking thing to do with abortion.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:08 PM

Vinnie:

When I want my words substituted for, I will choose my own substitutes, thanks. I had nothing to say about abortion here, and if you do then write your own post.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 06:13 PM

The link to a picture of this lady (posted by The Shambles) is heartbreaking. And Washington turning this into a cause celebre is about as disgusting as anything in recent memory.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:11 PM

"How sick is that?"

No sicker than you thinking YOU have ANY right to tell someone what they can and cannot do with their own body...

So get off yer high-f#cking horse...

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:24 PM

If you don't get the nourishment you need, you die. Whatever you call it.

That's a separate matter from whether it's right or wrong to bring this about in this particular case. But people arguing over things like that ought to avoid playing around with language as a way of shaping the argument one way or another.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:43 PM

Exactly my point. Use of the term "starved to death" is being used intentionally and extremely cynically by the Right to Life movement, just like their Republican politicians now use the term "culture of life" as a euphemism for their anti-abortion and anti-right to die agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: Peace
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:45 PM

Why can't this lady be allowed to die in peace?

Subject: RE: BS: Vegatative Woman Shuts Down US Gov't...
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 07:49 PM

Because the Christian right, their politicians and their media whores won't let her die, as they believe is THEIR divinely ordained right.