BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?

Subject: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:36 AM

This thread is intended to follow up on both skarpi's assuming-it-was-moslems thread and the idea on the horrific-event-in-Norway thread of why are we talking about islamist terrorists when this one was christian, which would be unfortunate thread creep.

I at first thought al q'aeda from the two attacks in such a short time. It's beginning to look as if it was *almost* the same thing - the same god, the same fundamentalism, the same weapons (guns and bombs), the same targets (innocents/civilians rather than occupying troops) - but a single person rather than an organization, and a christian rather a moslem.

Sigh. I really hate not knowing whom to fear. And may I remind the Forum that I have personal experience with terrorists killing my innocent loved one.

It was still a horrible thing. But this is another aspect to discuss.

After all, how many of you assumed it was the islamofundies again?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:40 AM

MSNBC did.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: skarpi
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:46 AM

Mrrzy , first new s here yesterday was that an Islamic group Al-Islam ? gave out
news report that they had done it , don´t get me wrong ok .

but I still think that one man could not have done this.

kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:48 AM

Sorry skarpi, I thought you did what I did, my apologies! And the one man was awfully well organized, I agree. They are saying maybe two, now, anyway. Which would make the organizations more similar.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:48 AM

Never assume anything until, you have at least the minimum of facts. I was glad that in all this the BBC stuck to that principle, and always made it clear that it shouldn't be assumed it was anything to do with Al Qaeda or Gaddafi.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:50 AM

Yes, I felt bad. I did the same thing in 1995 in Oklahoma.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:58 AM

I guess anyonecan make mistakes - especially when they are afraid.

And I guess more people are going to be afraid when the media has such an outrageously Islamophobic position.

This is another reason why Murdoch needs to be shut down.

The Sun Front page

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:01 AM

Well, I didn't assume anything and we have to remember that in these circumstances the first news out is often very sketchy and should not be relied upon as total fact.

My first thoughts were how terrible for the people who have been directly affected and for all people affected by terrorism irrespective of who is responsible for the act of terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:07 AM

I wrote these lyrics this morning. Please allow me to repost it.



I know that YOU know you're right. You know a man who knew he was right. He murdered four score and four children to prove Muslims are the terrorists to fight.

The shock and denial of the waiting parents is hell incarnate, waiting for word of their child as police stand before a curtain.

They already know that the odds of thier child being murdered or gravely injured is not 1 in 4 but virtually certain.

The pain and guilt is unbearable. If only I... What if I... Why?
Who? What if they...What if you.. What if I... and they break down and cry.

Our opinons turned to anger. We yelled the killer is Muslim, no the killer is Jewish, no the killer is Christian, no the killer is right wing extremist. And we are lost, bickering among ourselves.

With all the reflection of research with science and religious study, justice will never satisfy; we fall into a loneliness and depression, and feel we can no longer cry.

He knew guns and bombs would teach the world. He pledged he would no longer be powerless. Still he felt every insult that's hurled. He felt everything to gain if you could feel his pain and that is why he is so dangerous.

We will point to patterns of hate and we'll try to accept our fate but no one or thing will change the fight of the bestial proud predator in the man who believes he is Right.

OH yes indeed, YOU know you are right.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:10 AM

Why do so many people immediately immediately jump on the "terrorism" bandwagon when it could simply be one- or possibly 2- deranged individuals?

Wherever Bin Laden is, he's laughing so hard he's pissing himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:26 AM

Like Godfrey, too soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:39 AM

Oh I have no doubt it was terrorism. He was certainly trying to terrorize those he disagreed with.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:46 AM

There are different kinds of terrorism; it is difficult to imagine that whoever was responsible did this without the thought of bringing terror in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 11:57 AM

"Wherever Bin Laden is, he's laughing so hard he's pissing himself." - Greg F

What is this obsession of yours with incontinence?

Plus this simple observation:

Wherever Bin Laden is currently bobbing about on the floor of the Arabian Sea, if he is pissing himself how would he be aware of it??

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:01 PM

I don't think Greg was being literal or referring to the physical.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: skarpi
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:06 PM

Icelandic Police on a higher alert , after this attack in Norway ???

what is going on ?

kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:08 PM

Even if the man who did it was deranged, this was still pretty evidently a politically motivated terrorist act.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:09 PM

Attacks sometimes have copycats. There are a lot of disaffected people there are there not? I think it is a reasonable precaution.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 12:10 PM

He was politically active and the targets were political.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 02:59 PM

That makes it terrorism, which is the slaughter of innocents for political reasons.

The attacks on the Marine barracks and on the USS Cole weren't terrorism. But it is looking as if these attacks were.

Sigh. We can do better.

And where on earth did he get the guns?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:17 PM

The attack on the Marine barracks worked as terrorism it scared Ronny into running from Lebanon.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:54 PM

"Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?"
What an appalling tragedy - and an appallingly bigotted title for a thread - sort of "non-Catholic case of child rape".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 03:57 PM

I'm pretty sure Mrrzy's point was to point out the bigotry on another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:26 PM

how many of you assumed it was the islamofundies again?

I have, after the Oslo explosion. But the shooting on the island quickly looked different.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang momentarily without cookie
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 04:41 PM

Never assume anything until, you have at least the minimum of facts. (McGrath)

Very good advice, but even much more information won't change some minds.
There are still those who think that Timothy McVeigh has colluded with Iraqis and that 9/11 was a Mossad or, your choice, American job.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

Actually, JtS, they bombed the embassy *again* after the barracks, and *then* Ronny got out. Both embassy bombings before and after were terrorism and while the barrakcs bombing was part of the same campaign, strictly speaking it was an act of war rather than terrorism since it targeted troops.

This is only the second time, the first being Tim McVeigh et al., that I've been wrong when assuming Arabs were behind some bombing.

Oh, right, there was a third time, when it turned out to be an accident that a large airplane blew up, anybody remember spark possibilities in the cargo hold or something? Maybe a TWA flight? Probably in the 80's? I was only counting the ones that were other terrorists at first.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:29 PM

Lutheran terrorists? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:34 PM

What would gk do?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 06:42 PM

This is only the second time, the first being Tim McVeigh et al., that I've been wrong when assuming Arabs were behind some bombing.

You're missing the Civil Rights struggle in the U.S, George Metesky, the Unabomber and dozens (hundreds?) of other examples worldwide.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:20 PM

Not to mention unreported attacks on innocent Moslems and Mosques in the US since 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 07:37 PM

One man could have done it, Skarpi. Put a timer on the bomb, go to the island, and it was 90 minutes before the police arrived after the shooting there started.

But where do you get automatic (i.e., machine gun type) weapons in Norway? It's difficult to get them in the US! Still, I suppose in this world anything is possible if you are willing to pay enough for it.

Unfortunately.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:04 PM

These attacks were exceptionally well planned and coordinated requiring many different skills it is possible that one man could have done everything. But he would have to be some sort of DaVinci of Terrorism. It is more likely that he had help.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 08:39 PM

The murderer's right wing Christian militia group is politically akin to the American Tea Party. Or so said by Norwegians.

He is thier McVeigh.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 09:08 PM

a) Great thread title. Luckily, I read before I post so I won't make a snark comment about the Islam mention.
b) I'm still counting the hours until the mention of violent video games. Trust me, it'll happen.
c) I've not been following it closely, but I believe that this guy thought there was too much tolerance towards muslims. I'd love to know how this helped his cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: MarkS
Date: 23 Jul 11 - 10:28 PM

What is the connection between the Norwegian Christian militia and the American Tea Party?

No agenda here, just seems to be a set of dots very hard to connect.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 03:35 AM

"Non-Islamic Terrorist" is correct in as much as the terrorist was not a follower of Islam.

The man according to Norwegian reports is an extreme ring-wing Nationalist

His attack was not directed at any religious group but at a Norwegian Political party and I suspect that he was trying to take out the "leadership" of that party as well as striking at the "next generation" of Arbeiderpartiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:17 AM

He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Musket
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 04:23 AM

Poor shallow buggers won't know who to hate for being different now. Except this one was blonde, European and claims to be a Christian.

The fact that his disturbed mind amplified his political rather than religious stance seems to have been missed by many of the tabloids.

Must admit, calling a thread non - Islamic terrorist doesn't sit well, regardless of the explanation in the OP. Non Irish? Non Red Faction???

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Lox
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 05:52 AM

Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater.

The pope is Moslem and bears like to face mecca while they make proper use of private toilet facilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:02 AM

"Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater."
These events certainly drag them out of the woodwork, don't they?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: GUEST,Jayto
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:19 AM

It is never "just one man". Even if physically one person did manage to pull this off then you have an Army of people that influenced his views and opinions. Somebody along the line influenced this man to become militant. Somebody wrote a book or article that lead him down this path. There are far more people at work than just this one man. Like I said even if it was just him that executed the action.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 08:25 AM

Jim and Lox, lay off the argumentative personal attacks please.
In his pre-attack video he talks of "embracing martyrdom", and previously,"He also claims to have bought three bottles of 1979 vintage French wine, and decides to open one with his family at Christmas as his "martyrdom operation draws ever closer".
That is quite relevant to any discussion of this crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 10:10 AM

What is the connection between the Norwegian Christian militia and the American Tea Party?

The TeaBaggers are largely fundagelical Christians[sic], virulently anti-Muslim (and somewhat unbalanced; remember Obama being a secret Muslim who was going to impose Sharia law?), anti-Immigrant, & anti-government.

Also, they terrorize people by showing up at public meetings waving loaded guns. They just havent used them....yet.

Sounds like a connection to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 10:24 AM

"Jim and Lox, lay off the argumentative personal attacks please."
"Personal attacks" refuge again Keith.
You are attempting to use the murder of 90odd people by a fundamentalist Christian to implicate Muslims.
Like Lox, I thought even you couldn't use this as part of your mission - forgot your dedication to the cause.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:09 AM

1: "He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror." - Keith A

2: "Only Keith could fins a form of Logic that found Islam responsible in some way for the actions of a Moslem hater." - Lox

I read and understand 1: but can see no connection or logic for the jump that Lox makes in stating 2:

Observation:
Apart from Islamic fundamantalist terrorist organisations, what other terrorist group or groups refer to any of their attacks as "martyrdom operations"? And to point out the glaringly obvious, as the man responsible is in custody having given himself up to armed police officers on Uteoya this was no "martyrdom operation" at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:20 AM

"He has referred to his "martyrdom operation" in imitation of Islamic terror. "

Keith, please clarify this, I thought you were saying that the killer was concerned with imitating what he called "Islamic terror." I did not think that you were in any way trying to imply that Islamic terror was any different from any other kind of "terror." Is this so?

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 11:34 AM

>"Apart from Islamic fundamantalist terrorist organisations, what other terrorist group or groups refer to any of their attacks as "martyrdom operations"?"

The murder of George Tiller for one by members of Operation Rescue.
Also, Tim McVeigh. The idea that this must be Islamic is a tinfoil hat idea.

The newspapereze label of "martyrdom operation" is a term immediately to be distrusted
as identifying anything of importance.

There are many Xtian terrorist paramilitary and skinhead groups in the U.S. that would use the term "martydom" for their cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:10 PM

Plenty of examples of "suicide missions" in the wars of the last century, and before. Any number of tributes to soldiers who were killed "laying down their lives", or to their "sacrifice".

Of course the thing about this guy is that it wasn't a suicide mission in any sense - as soon as the armed police came up, he put down his weapons and surrendered.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:14 PM

You needn't be Muslim to be a terrorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Non-Islamic Terrorist in Norway?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Jul 11 - 12:16 PM

GregF, in those, instances, I hadn't assumed it was the islamofundies the way I did with the ones I listed under "times I was wrong when I assumed it was the islamofundies" (or some such).

I remember a conversation after the 1st bombing of the World Trade Center, when a Palistinian friend of mine said I shouldn't make such an assumption and I asked well, who bombs Americans? The only other terrorists are the IRA, who don't bite the hand that feeds, and the Basque, who are after the French (if they're Spanish) or the Spanish (if they're French) (or maybe it's the other way around) but at any rate it wasn't them either. And I was right, that time.

Now, who would bomb inoffensive beautiful open-minded Norway? Apparently, a narrow-minded Norwegian, but it wasn't an attack against the *nation* the way the attacks on US embassies and landmarks were. Or not?