BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 07:00 PM

*and*

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 28 Sep 11 - 07:02 PM

*And I should probably have said "despite her character flaws, she's still portrayed as basically a good person"

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 02:53 AM

Yes... That was what I meant by Racism Fail ("fail" is a slang way of mocking a person or artistic or literary work's "moral failing") -- Victor Hugo's ugly racist assumptions about race, and the quality of non-White European people's value as people.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 04:39 AM

Which silent version did you see? Incidentally, despite the racism and ableism, Hugo raises some issues that are still relevant even now.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 05:46 AM

*"although he was raised by White people" should be "although he was raised by White people, which as implied by the narrator would make him a good person." As someone of Chinese descent, it would sound self-hating if I (apparently) implied that non-White people are bad parents!

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Sep 11 - 11:26 AM

What was that great movie, back during the time of the "message" movie (you can be raped even if you don't fight was one, Ted Danson played the molesting father in another), about the skier who broke her neck? I remember the scene when she's home from the hospital, and she manages after mashing most of them to pick up a potato chip, and she is SO proud of her achievement... and her boyfriend looks horrified and flees, leaving behind his gift of...

New ski boots. He'd had no idea what her injury actually *meant*.

I think this was a true story rather than a message movie, though, but it feels about that old to me. Mid-eighties?

And the above post reminds me of the true story where my radical rabid jewish nephew was getting married in Israel, and the rabbi was rabbiting on about how he (my nibling) was such a great person despite his handicapping upbringing, kind of like that scene in the new Star Trek movie. My sister said, and I quote, "that rabbi can bite me."

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 02:39 AM

Morwen -- I don't remember. The last time I saw it was over 30 years ago (I was younger than you are now).

And Mrrzy -- I hate to say it, but that sounds like the kind of movie that's made me cringe and want to throw things at the TV my entire life (and it might have been a message movie "based on a true story").

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:40 AM

I'll be 18 pretty soon- 2 October which is Sunday over here in Australia.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 03:51 AM

Mrrzy- I can't believe there's actually anyone who'd say stuff like that. BTW, (some Mudcatters can probably fill me in on this) but one of the issues raised in The Hunchback of Notre Dame even though there's the unfortunate twist about Esmeralda, is prejudice against Roma, which is still very strong in parts of Europe with a significant Roma population, and even in non-European countries with a low amount of people who identify as Roma.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 05:37 PM

*which is apparently,until it is discovered to be otherwise*

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 06:19 PM

Morwen -- Happy Birthday, then (even if it is a day or two early). I was still younger than you when I saw HOND (If I recall correctly, I was about 16 or 17 when I saw took that class. That would have been 1980 or '81).

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 30 Sep 11 - 07:08 PM

Thanks. I'm still 17 right now.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,livelylass
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 10:02 AM

Umm, not trying to be horrid here, but is there any real need to repeatedly refresh a thread, if you've got nothing new to add to it? Just sayin' :)

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 07:21 PM

Well, I do have something to add. In HoND, Hugo addresses some issues that are still important, as in the way he seems to be addressing prejudices against the Roma, and(despite the condescending portrayal of Quasimodo, who is an object of pity) he explores social justice issues fairly well.
BTW, anyone have the same idea as I did, that Quasimodo's red hair and pale skin could be because of albinism?

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 01 Oct 11 - 07:40 PM

It just slipped my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 07:54 AM

BTW, anyone want to discuss my idea about Quasimodo? Maybe you can use that theory in your HOND post, CapriUni! Another BTW, on "Pied Piper of Hamelin", I remember asking a teacher's aide about what happened to those kids after they went into the cave- the story was one of our readers- and being a bit disturbed when I heard they died. I don't remember hearing about the boy who couldn't catch up- but it might've been in the Browning poem, I don't know. actually think it might have been Year 6 that I heard it.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 02 Oct 11 - 05:38 PM

Refresh. Anyone else think Quasimodo(although there isn't any proof in the novel)could have been an albino? Or he could just have had a White parent or other White ancestor. But anyway (and I actually don't want to offend anyone by saying this, especially not anyone who actually has albinism and stumbles across this site ), so my apologies if I've offended anyone). in my opinion , the albinism theory is more intriguing.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 02:20 AM

The albinism idea comes from reading Azizi's blog post on "Black-on-Black Taunting: Burnt Rice" although Quasimodo was not Black, but Romani.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 04:47 AM

Real-life Quasimodo uncovered in Tate archives - Telegraph

The above is worth a google.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 07:40 AM

999, I copy-and pasted it into the that article is about a sculptor who , may have been the inspiration for the character of Quasimodo . and it's really interesting. Thanks. I actually read it before, but I haven't in a long time Not to cause another misunderstanding, but I was thinking more on the lines of the fictional character of

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 08:01 AM

Morwen, as Quasimodo's possible albinism doesn't have much to do with CapriUni, her blog, folk tales, or even really, disability, and as you really want to talk about him, I think the topic is worth you starting a separate thread. At least people who search for "Quasimodo" will be able to find your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 02:29 PM

My latest entry (inspired and informed by MudCat threads, btw-- and the first where I discuss a song*): The "False-parted" woman in comic ballads.

... I actually posted it Friday evening, but then lost my Internet connection over the weekend.

*I've been debating whether or not to write about "Mrs. McGrath" -- does that count as "folklore" or straight history? I might do a piece on "The Jovial Beggar," to contrast attitudes toward disability in men vs. women, & young vs. old...

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 02:38 PM

If Quasimodo had red hair, he wasn't albino, they have white hair.

Mrs McGrath, Road to Sweet Athay, are about the "mutiles de guerre" - war wounded, yes, that should count. I don't think you have to be disabled from birth to make it into folktales and -songs.

False-parted woman? LOL! That's a mondegreen I hadn't heard yet!

Morwen, that was the most printable of the things that got said - the bride's family also tried to get more money out of my sister... and happy bday!

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 03 Oct 11 - 03:13 PM

Mrzzy -- I'm not questioning whether or not Mrs. McGrath counts as disability, but as folklore -- an account of an actual war's aftermath isn't exactly the same animal as a fantastical/fictional story.

And "False-Parted" isn't a mondegreen so much as my gleeful indulgence in punning. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 04:36 AM

Here's a question I've been rolling around in my head for a while (just like Tigger, rolling around the thistles, when he's trying to learn what food he likes best):

Should I include depictions of the Elderly as depictions of Disability, if the symbols of Disability (walks with a crutch or cane, has palsy in the hands or head, etc.) are serving a greater purpose as a symbol for Advanced Age?

For example: in the opening scene of The Winter's Tale there are these lines:

CAMILLO:
I very well agree with you in the hopes of him: it
is a gallant child; one that indeed physics the
subject, makes old hearts fresh: they that went on
crutches ere he was born desire yet their life to
see him a man.

ARCHIDAMUS:
Would they else be content to die?

CAMILLO:
Yes; if there were no other excuse why they should
desire to live.

ARCHIDAMUS:
If the king had no son, they would desire to live
on crutches till he had one.
----

I've seen it argued that Shakespeare isn't really talking about the quality of life of "the Disabled," but is simply using "went on crutches" as a short-hand code for "very old," in the same way walkers (walking frames) are used as a gag reference to the elderly by modern comedians.

On the other hand, if part of the bias against the elderly (the reason to poke fun at them) is that they become disabled as they age, doesn't that count as depictions of the Big D "Disability" in folk tales?

And boy-howdy! if I included folktales that specifically mentioned an old woman's cane or crutch, the number of relevant stories would shoot through the roof (O Hai thar, nearly every depiction of fairy tale witches!).

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 07:07 AM

I'm curious-- what folktale/fairy tale witches use a cane or crutch? I don't know of any :(.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 02:59 PM

Morwen --

Admitedly, when the question first popped into my head I actually looking at a picture, rather than reading a story. In 1806, Thomas Dibdin wrote a Holiday Pantomime about Mother Goose that made her into a witch-figure, complete with magic wand, and raising ghosts. And This roughly contemporary illustration (at least, pre-modern) shows her carrying a cane/crutch (hard to tell from the picture how it's used when she's walking).

And That reminded me of witch at the beginning of The Goose-Girl at the Spring, from Grimms' Children's and Household Tales.

And while she doesn't use a crutch, the witch at the beginning of The Six Swans is identified as a witch because she's old, and has a "bobbing head," which could be a symptom of Parkinson's or some other palsy.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 06:27 PM

I *love* "The Goose-Girl At the Spring"! And "The Six Swans".

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 07:31 PM

Yes. ...Those are two of my favorites, and remembering that the witch (wise woman) at the beginning of "The Goose-Girl" uses her disability to test the character of the Prince/Hero made me so happy, because that gives me reason to share it and pontificate on it (And I've often wondered, in the back of my mind, if that Germanic-quasi-Goddess witch figure, who watches over the abused, and protects them by transforming them into geese is the root/origin of "Mother Goose").

I also love "The Six Swans" -- the imagery of the shirts woven from asters being thrown over the backs of flying swans is just so visually striking. And the chutzpah of the protagonist heroine when she realizes she cannot trust her father to protect her, so she strikes out on her own, makes me gleeful.

But I've been going back and forth on whether her six years of voluntary mutism counts as a "disability" or not. On the one hand, her situation mirrors the lives of many people who cannot speak (including children with more severe forms of cerebral palsy) who are at the mercy of others in authority who make all the decisions about their lives. But on the other hand, her muteness is imposed from the outside, and not any limit of her own abilities, and the whole story may be more a reflection of cultural sexism, rather than ableism.

So I haven't made my mind up on that, yet...

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 09 Oct 11 - 10:18 PM

I think it was intended to be a condition of the spell. Her brothers would be in danger if she broke it by speech. btw, I've always thought that combining this tale with swan maiden tales would make a great fantasy novel- something i'd love to read. But I've got too much on with HSC.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 05:30 PM

Refresh

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 07:53 PM

Well, just now, I finished my latest entry. It's here: "They that went on crutches" (the intersection of old age and disability) -- basically, I just expanded on the question I asked yesterday.

---
Morwen -- yes, her muteness is a condition of the witch's spell. But the practical consequences of that (that all the major developments in her life from that time on are decided for her by those around her, and her own desires and needs are ignored) are things that people living without the ability to speak have to deal with in real life.

(Looking at the story with a modern sensibility, I wonder how she could remain silent during childbirth ... but maybe the spell allowed her to "Arrrrgh!" as long as she didn't utter an actual word).

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 08:36 PM

Maybe she's so desperate to save her brothers that she endures pain to do it. Or maybe it's as you said. Or family loyalty. BTW, in some versions (most of them have the father be a king or wealthy lord), the father plans to have the brothers killed so that the heroine, his youngest child, can inherit all his property, because she's his favourite child.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 10 Oct 11 - 08:49 PM

Yes, I'm familiar with the motif of the "plot" to ensure that the youngest inherit the property -- just look at all the stories where it's the youngest child who's the only one moral enough, or lucky enough, to pass the "inheritance test."

I've also come across the theory (though I don't know how valid it is) that this element of the youngest, rather than the eldest, is the designated heir is a remnant of the ancient Indo-European culture that was matriarchal rather than patriarchal.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 12:14 AM

Why does only half of the last sentence show up?

---

When you started the second set of italics starting with "because", you typed <I. instead of <I>

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 05:04 PM

thanks. BTW, this is not a story but a song (Sorry, I can't give the lyrics!) Lord Executor, an old Trinidadian calypsonian (who died in 1950 so this song may not fit but his career began in the 1890s) slowly became blind in the final years of his life and wrote an extempo verse and a song called " How I Spent My Time In The Hospital."

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Oct 11 - 09:01 PM

Well, songs are fair game -- my post on the "false-parted woman" was about the motif of prosthetics in comic ballads, dating back to the 1600s.

And I plan on doing a post on "The Jolly Beggar" sometime in the nearish future, to contrast the attitudes toward men and women with disabilities.... And then, there's also Teddy in "Mrs. McGrath."

But yeah, it sounds like "How I spent my time in Hospital" is a bit too recent for my scope. Maybe you could start a new discussion thread about the song, here on Mudcat?

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 07:23 AM

I just remembered that the song is on a box set called "Calypso: West Indian Rhythm 1938-1940".

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:22 PM

My latest blog entry is now up: Halfman -- navigating the barriers of mockery and hatred.

I actually found the story through Lady Jean's suggestion, in this thread, way back on April 16th. It's not exactly the same story (this one's from Greece, not France) but it has many of the same elements. I've only read one translation into English, so I just linked to that version, and summarized the points relating to the Disability Experience (rather than attempt my own retelling based on synthesis of many translations).

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 04:25 PM

What about the Baba Yaga? Lived in a house on duck's feet that would turn around, went around in a mortar, driving it on with the pestle, and sweeping out the traces behind her with a broom... would that be a witch-y wheelchair?

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 06:44 PM

Ooh... that's an interesting idea, Mrr.

Also, when specific holidays come up, there is an expectation for specific stories to go with them. A week from now is Halloween (quickly becoming bigger than Christmas, here in the States), So maybe I could explore the story of Baba Yaga for that...

And this morning, I remembered a ghost story from a collection of Katherine Briggs' British Folktales anthology, called "Sammle's Ghost." Sammle dies, and he has to go meet with the king of the worms, And the king of the worms tells him that his spirit can't leave this earth and go on to the next dimension until after the worms have digested every last bit of his earthly body. And in the course of gathering up his body's ashes, it's revealed that, in life, he had to have an arm amputated, so he has to go fetch the preserved arm that the doctor kept in his office after the surgery.

And there's no big deal made of that fact... no notion that going about with only one arm was any great tragedy, but it just meant there was a bit of a complication in transitioning to the Afterlife. So I may post that story sometime this week, because it certainly does suggest that ghosts, like pirates, are often missing some parts (because if they managed to get through this life with all of their parts intact, they'd have moved on by now...).

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 05:32 PM

Happy Halloween! To celebrate, I posted one of my favorite ghost stories to "Plato's Nightmare..."

"Sammle's Ghost" -- A Tale for Halloween

It's not particularly gory (in the literal sense) or violent. But it does mention a lot of snails and slugs and bats, and things. And it's basically a dialog between a ghost and a giant (rather bureaucratic) Great Worm. So, if worms and things (or bureaucrats) disgust you, you may not want to read...

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 05:42 AM

Just had cause to mention Jacob's The Legend of Knockgrafton in another thread. I suppose it's already been mentioned here, but just in case in hasn't - well, what can I say? Poor old Jack Madden!

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 05:45 AM

I remember Taffy Thomas telling a golden arm story at a Twilight Tales two-hander we did in Northumberland a few years back. Did he say he got it off Norma Waterson? I dare say it's pretty well known if it's in Taffy's repertoire...

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 04:42 PM

Suibhne --

No, I do not remember The Legend of Knockgrafton here. I will have to look it up.

I have seen a couple of golden limb stories, though (a couple of Grimm-collected tales that did not get included in their Kinder- und Hausmarchen collection, which I almost chose for my Halloween selection -- until I remembered my affection for "Sammle"):

One about a little girl who was given a golden leg prosthesis, but subsequently died.... and a thief stole the golden leg from her coffin. So she comes back to haunt him.

And the other about a woman with a golden arm prosthesis, and a man who married her because he coveted that arm -- and then stole it from her coffin after she died, because he loved the arm more than he loved her, and so her ghost comes back to haunt him.

This last one is, I think, an interesting contrast to the "false-parted woman" ballads.

And speaking of ballads, I've "The Jovial Beggar" song lined up to post sometime soon, though first, I'd like to read 'The Jovial Crew' (the play by Richard Brome with which it is associated), since the company of beggars in that play are, apparently, representatives of the concerns of justice and charity in a changing social order.   And I suspect that the character of the (lame?) beggar in that play may have a lot of light to shed on the social role that the physically disabled play in the whole web of community contracts... Based on the lyrics of the song, I expect my conclusion to be: "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 10:20 AM

Taffy's was the second of your Golden Arm scenarios, though as I recall he sourced it to a story Norma Waterson's father (?) used to tell when she was a kid.

Here's a link for The Legend of Knockgrafton.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: CapriUni
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 06:47 PM

Ah. Yes, indeed. I did know that tale... But I knew it by a different name.

And I also have mixed feelings about it, as the whole thrust of the story is that happiness depends on cure.

On the other hand, being hunchbacked was, indeed, often painful, and often shortened a person's life, so...

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 10:15 PM

Interestingly, CapriUni, this is sort of related to the Breton story about Ugly Jan mentioned by LadyJean. I started a thread on the Breton werewolf legend of Cunmar the Accursed, said to be one of the real-life inspirations behind "Bluebeard". Maybe "Bluebeard" counts as a tale about disability? Or "Silvernose", a similar Italian tale? The devil's prosthetic nose was there for a reason.

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 10:26 PM

Or maybe Cunmar the Accursed (or Conomor) would count; he was apparently always evil, if psychopathy counts as a disability. Here's a link to a telling of the legend;Conomor and Triphine

Subject: RE: BS: CapriUni's blog: disability in folktales
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 26 Nov 11 - 06:04 AM

There is a surlalune fairy tales page with an annotated version of the Bluebeard story as written by Perrault as well.