So thats seth lakeman is it

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Teacher
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:14 PM

McMullen your French is excused, your English is inexcusable.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 03:37 PM

We could be thankful for the mercies we receive. I forget where it was, but I recently saw someone refer to KT Tunstall as folk. Excellent she is, but folk she isn't.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 05:24 PM

Scrump,

It's 'bollocks' for two reasons:

(i) Because it's just an untested theory that's been bandied about before. In my experience most people who were attracted to Folk Music through the music of 'Steeleye Span', for example, never seemed to get any further than 'Steeleye Span' (in fact I still meet people who still think that SS 'wrote' 'All Around My Hat', 'Cam Ye O'er From France' etc., etc.).

(ii) I'm damned if I'm going to like or praise something, that I don't like, because I hope it will appeal to some other section of the population (in this case 'young people'). If young people let folk music die because it isn't 'cool' enough for them then that's their responsibility and their loss - sod 'em!! Personally, I don't want to see the musical genre that I love bastardised and diluted by a bunch of trendy, five minute wonders and I have absolutely no qualms about saying so.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Declan
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 08:23 PM

I remember hearing the Lakeman Brothers playing in a session at Edinburgh Folk Festival a good few years back. They were getting quite hyped up in the folk press at that stage. I was quite impressed as to their musical ability at the time.

I saw Equation at Cambridge a year or two later and was impressed. Part of that was down to their virtuoisity given their age, a lot was down to the fact that they were a very good band.

Cambridge 2006 was when I got to hear Seth next. I thought his set was enjoyable enough, I was impressed by the fiddling and singing at the same time proficiency. There was little or nothing in the set list that I found very inspiring. However it is clearly folk inspired music. While describing any of it as traditional is probably stretching a point, Seth is clearly influenced by the tradition.

I didn't buy a copy of Seth's CD, which means I wasn't that impressed with what I heard. But, does Seth's music belong inside the boundaries of Folk Music? .. undoubtedly. Does he have potential to ?bring a newer audience to folk music? Of course.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a mindset in the folk world that means that anything commercially sucessful is unacceptable. This is particularly true in my experience of the English Folkie, through direct contact and through this and other forums.

My advice to Seth, although he clearly doesn't need it, is to continue along your own musical path, and to paraphrase Brendan Behan, give the begrudgers the weight they diserve in determining your future career direction.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: melodeonboy
Date: 09 Mar 07 - 09:54 PM

"AND he's just won Folk Singer Of The Year...so that makes him a BLOODY GOOD FOLK SINGER!", says Lady Cornish. Does it indeed??? Mmmm.... refer to point 4 of my first posting on this thread (and note the use of capitals; very reminiscent of "The Sun").

Is it at all possible that those that do not enjoy Mr. Lakeman's music could just be classified (if, indeed, classification be necessary at all) as "people who do not enjoy Mr. Lakeman's music", rather than "wrinklies", "fundamentalists", "begrudgers" or whatever other offensive label certain people choose. I find it difficult to comprehend when people tell me they don't like Shirley Collins, but many people do tell me that. I've never gone into the business of giving them labels. To me they're just "people who don't like Shirley Collins".

It's simple really, ain't it?

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Blowzabella
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 03:46 AM

Actually, I think I might be a trickle down example myself .... cos I first encountered 'folk' in the Steeleye years. But now my tastes are much more 'pared back' shall we say - my collection includes tapes of Sam Larner, Bob Roberts and Copper family, Dolly and Shirley Collins, Peter Bellamy - as well as Tim Laycock (pretty much everything he has ever done), Dave Webber & Anni Fentiman, Cyril Tawney, Stan Hugill - and (as they say when they can't think of anything else to put) much much more.

I think there is ONE Steeleye Span CD in there - but hubby bought that, not me, he said it was for Old Times Sake. I haven't listened to it.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Blowzabella
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 03:53 AM

Oh - forgot my much much more - Louis Killen, Jim Eldon, Roy Harris, Johnny Collins ... and much much more

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 04:33 AM

"There is no doubt in my mind that there is a mindset in the folk world that means that anything commercially sucessful is unacceptable."

More bollocks! Relative 'commercial success' is the last thing I'm thinking about when deciding whether I like or don't like a particular piece of music. A complete 'red herring'!

And 'Blowzabella' - good for you! I'm sure that you're 'the exception that proves the rule'.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: treewind
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 05:34 AM

"There is no doubt in my mind that there is a mindset in the folk world that means that anything commercially sucessful is unacceptable."
I don't know about unacceptable, but the folk world (which surely, more that any other musical world, is about real people making real music) is a bit allergic to commercial hype.
Commercial sucess is such an all or nothing thing these days.
Certainly to win a competition doesn't prove you're a "bloody good singer". What commecrial success does mean is that your singing and playing is good enough (equal to hundreds of others, perhaps) plus you are some or all of:
+ marketable (young, attractive);
+ a good showman;
+ lucky, e.g. in the right place at the right time;
+ a good promoter (or have contacts who are).

Hard working too: I don't think that sort of success comes easily to anyone. But my point is that the talent, though significant, isn't in proportion to the publicity.

Anahata

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 06:39 AM

I've always believed that musicians are really selling emotion. They say that music triggers the same tiny part of the human brain as a baby's cry, and that's why we love to make and hear it. To an extent, the more emotion a musician can trigger, the more successful they are likely to be - whatever syle or genre they work in. I'd happily put Seth in the folk box, while choosing my words carefully when connecting him with the word traditional (which I easily could), but the bottom line is that his music and his performances are deeply emotional, and that's a prime reason for his success - along with all that Anahata says. I know the first time I heard that punk fuddle on Kitty Jay I experienced a rush of adrenaline the likes of which I'd not felt for many years. And the way he's dug one foot into the folk furrow and cocked the other up onto the pop deck is very clever. I like him a lot - but I wouldn't expect people who are mainly turned on by music that's close to the tradition to agree - and I'm sure that's not a problem for Seth either. Tom

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 07:13 AM

From Shimrod:

>>>And 'Blowzabella' - good for you! I'm sure that you're 'the exception that proves the rule'.<<<<

'Fraid not! ;0)

I 'discovered' folk music purely through Show of Hands. Not only did their own music prove deeply inspirational for me, but so did their versions of traditional songs and covers of other folk songs too. It's opened up a huge amount of music for me...and also for my children too, aged 12 and 20.

Both my kids love Seth's music. They also love who Seth is. That he is NOT 'touched by fame' in any way whatsoever. We've been watching him for years now....and we've seen his audience change from middle-aged and older folkies, to masses of young people.   

He's exciting. He's young. He's inspirational. He's professional and....he's DEEPLY talented. He's a 'natural' musician.

Some people spend years trying to 'learn' to be a musician....and sometimes they get there too, but the best musicians, to me, are like teachers, it's there right from the moment they're born!

THAT'S what I saw in Seth Lakeman the first time I ever saw him. I see it also in Phil Beer, in Steve Knightley, in John Tams and Bob Fox. It's there in Ashley Hutchings and Dave Swarbrick, in Martin Carthy etc. etc...That 'natural' drive that won't let them stop, that brain pattern that will never switch off, always thinking, always playing, always writing, researching etc etc...

Seth is up there with Phil Beer and Dave Swarbrick in the WOW factor of fiddle playing imo.

What REALLY gets up my nose though, is the complete prats who whitter on about his 'looks' and use that against him in the most spiteful way....

Seth Lakeman IS good looking. But so what? That's not his 'fault', it's just the way he is.

However, even if he stood there with a fat suit on and a bag over his head, the second he started playing his fiddle people would be drawn in like a magnet to him, in EXACTLY the same way! He has a unique sound, he plays in a unique way. When he plays Kitty Jay, the girls are as focussed on that fiddle playing as the lads are...It's amazing to watch him play that song and yes, just as Tom said above, the first time I ever saw him play that, I knew it was something special!
I've seen him play that song many times since, and it never fails to take my breath away.

By all means don't like Seth's music, it's a free world and we'd be very boring if we all liked the same things...but for Goodness Sake, don't drag him down. He's opening up YOUR world to those who'll want to come in! Don't slam the door in his face!

There are many 'natural' musicians who struggle all their lives to get anywhere and it must be so frustrating for them...therefore anyone who is bringing people in, enlarging that world, and with it bringing more opportunities for other musicians to finally be 'found' should receive as much support as possible.

Seth is just the beginning of a whole new wave of folk artists. The, imo, snobby, snooty world of English Traditional music should open it's doors wide to him and stop behaving like the kind of weird people who show their dogs at Crufts!

The folk world is NOT The Kennel Club, but there is a small minority who would dock tails of many a folk musician for not having 'the right accent' 'the right look' 'the right stance' etc..etc..

Lighten up guys....Take your arran sweaters and anoraks off now and put your jeans and T shirts on.

Seth Lakeman and Show of Hands have moved you all forward...into The Winner's Arena, but their Arena is filled with happy, talented mongrels, who wag their long tails joyfully, because they do not have rules and regulations to abide by and they do not conform to a certain English Folk Pedigree.


Lizzie :0)

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 07:22 AM

Aaaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhhh!

Please stop stereotyping. I find it very offensive.

Dave.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 07:35 AM

Sorry - that was knee jerk. Calmed down now and analysed the thread. Number of postings = 112. Number of posts saying they don't like Seth = 12, Amongst which half say they do not like him but appreciate what he does. Number of posts slagging other posters off for being 'Aran jumper wearer' - work it out yourself. You only need to follow one poster.

Just who is the predjudiced one here?

Dave.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 07:55 AM

Do we think the Aran sweater is yet another casualty of global warming?
Actually I think its the lack of them as if we all wore thick jumpers instead of turning up the thermostat we'd save a lot of wasted power.
My twins both have aran jumpers knitted by me and they're great for folk festivals. They also put their fingers in their ears a lot but that seems to be when I'M singing :0))

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 07:59 AM

Lizzie.
Losing the will to live now.
R

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:02 AM

Lizzie.
Who are these "Natural Musicians, struggling all their lives?"
Errrm....Please explain?
R

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:16 AM

My cousin from Cornwall knows the family, and says SL is a good sort.

End of (as we young people say.)

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Puck
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:30 AM

I'm with you Miskin Man..... stirred things up a bit...good thread Andy

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:40 AM

the best musicians, to me, are like teachers, it's there right from the moment they're born

This isn't knee jerk, it's total, considered anger at such utterly ignorant, dangerous, malicious stupidity. Just when you thought you must have heard the ultimate, this loud-mouthed prat comes out with even more outrageously misinformed bilge.

But what can you expect from someone who doesn't believe in school attendance and glories in gaining no qualifications, with the possible exception of a GCSE is dumbed down, MOR pop?

So Mrs Route thinks musicians are born playing instruments? Yeah, right. Wouldn't occur to her to consider the countless hours of practice, of research, of rehearsal. Because for her everything's got to be instant, manufactured plastic, pink-tinged candy-floss, lacking in substance, throwaway worthlessness. News for her: even the Lakepersons spent their early years learning their craft. And Seth actually can play his violin (as opposed to abusing it) when he wants to, though unfortunately he's not currently doing so.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Scrump
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:50 AM

It's 'bollocks' for two reasons:

(i) Because it's just an untested theory that's been bandied about before. In my experience most people who were attracted to Folk Music through the music of 'Steeleye Span', for example, never seemed to get any further than 'Steeleye Span' (in fact I still meet people who still think that SS 'wrote' 'All Around My Hat', 'Cam Ye O'er From France' etc., etc.).

(ii) I'm damned if I'm going to like or praise something, that I don't like, because I hope it will appeal to some other section of the population (in this case 'young people'). If young people let folk music die because it isn't 'cool' enough for them then that's their responsibility and their loss - sod 'em!! Personally, I don't want to see the musical genre that I love bastardised and diluted by a bunch of trendy, five minute wonders and I have absolutely no qualms about saying so.

With all due respect, Shimrod, if anyone is guilty of spouting "bollocks", it's you, not me, because (taking the two parts of your 'justification' for your gratuitous insult in turn):

(i) Providing a counter-example of a few people who didn't progress any further into folk music after hearing Steeleye Span does not prove that my original comment was "bollocks". Yes, I accept that not everyone who goes to see Steeleye Span or Seth Lakeman will end up delving deeper into traditional folk music, but many will do just that. I gave as an example myself, earlier, having got into folk music via Bob Dylan and other artists that were just as controversial in their time, as far as this issue is concerned. I personally know many people who 'discovered' folk music in similar ways.

(ii) The second part of your 'justification' above is simply your personal opinion and you are entitled to it of course, but it does not justify you calling my earlier comments "bollocks". How you can think it does, I don't know.

The grounds on which you based your insult to me are therefore fallacious and I believe your vilification of my earlier comments are unjustified, and I look forward to receiving your apology.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: McMullen
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:59 AM

i didnt really like steelye neither, it sounded like church music, but i dont nearly dislike them as much as seth lakeman

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:19 AM

Mrs. Route, you do spout the MOST pretentious cack at times.

You promised earlier this week to give up writing this garbage and here you are back again. And writing pretentious cack again.

I have never met a musician who did not spend hour upon hour practising. And guess what, the more they practise, the better they get.

Why can you not stick to things you know about? Like, errr.....like errr..........well, you suggest something you know something about. Because for certain you know bugger all about folk music.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:33 AM

http://www.dickmiles.comand this is dick miles.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 10:53 AM

"The grounds on which you based your insult to me are therefore fallacious and I believe your vilification of my earlier comments are unjustified, and I look forward to receiving your apology."

I still think you're talking bollocks, Scrump - sorry!!

PS I love that 'therefore' - it makes you sound so logical and sweetly reasonable. For my part, I'm not at all reasonable - as you may have gathered. I'm pissed off with trendy idiots buggering around with folk music. I'm a 'fundamentalist' - ooherr!!

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Devil's Advocate
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 11:44 AM

Folkiedave said "Why can you not stick to things you know about? Like, errr.....like errr..........well, you suggest something you know something about."
Well, how about building up rather a rather overly ostentatious and overblown Myspace page for a start?

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 12:29 PM

Sorry guys, this thread's about Seth...start a separate Lizzie Bashing one if you feel the need.

I think it was Sean Lakeman who said that he actually regretted going to music college, as he felt that time was wasted.

Natural musicians, Diane, are the same as 'natural teachers'. They are born knowing how an instrument works. They may never read music or ever understand it, but the music they produce is magical. I've no idea about Seth's musical background, but he's welded to that fiddle...and Sean is the same with his guitar. Seth's fiddle is a part of him, as much as his arms or legs. It's the same as my daughter saying she cannot imagine life without being able to paint, Same for many a musician...or writer, or teacher, or dancer, or sculptor etc...

Creative people often have very similar brain patterns. We've been through it all before elsewhere. YOUR ears Diane, as you've told us before 'dissect' music note for note, and you assume that everyone does this when they listen to music...they don't. Some do though.

The way that Seth moves, his body language, facial expressions, speed of movement etc..are all, imo, linked in to his natural musical talent. In the same way, a natural teacher understands children and adults from the inside out. They know how to make learning easy and a joy. The present Government has broken the skill for many teachers, forcing them to teach in a particular way, which many know is wrong. The good and 'natural' teachers are leaving en masse.

As I've suggested to you before, read Ronald D. Davis's 'Gift Of Dyslexia' book and in there you'll find out how he was treated as an imbecile at school, because he could not read and write. He was a genius at maths though, although he could not explain why...he just knew the answers...but this wasn't enough, he HAD to be able to explain, to those who know better..He was labelled a Savant and treated appallingly. He later, became an engineer, before giving in to the real love of his life, which as sculpting. He discovered that he saw things 'differently' only because a friend of his watched him sculpting a head one day and asked him how he managed to bring the clay to life life that. He looked at him in amazement and said "But the head is already in there! I simply am removing the clay from around it. Can't you see it?" His friend didn't understand.

Ronald then went on his 'dyslexic' journey of discovery and now runs schools throughout the USA and UK for dyslexic children and he also found that a high proportion of dyslexic people are also highly talented musicians, dancers, artists, scupltors, athletes etc...They have the ability to 'see inside' without even realising they're doing it. The dancer is able to view themselves 'from above', the artist will strip back the paint to the canvas (my daughter does this) the musician will pick up an instrument and 'feel it' from the inside out....whilst never knowing what order the notes may be supposed to played in...etc..etc..

Seth's just 'got it' that's all...I'm sure all three of the Lakeman's have 'it' That special natural magic.

Impossible to understand for those with closed minds....but exceptionally easy to see for those who understand.

Oh...and a 'natural' teacher Diane, would never ridicule a child or an adult for their spelling, grammar or indeed anything else, because the 'natural' teacher can spot the gift that is within every single human being...

Seth has that gift.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 12:34 PM

John the Baptist after torturing a thief
Looked up at his hero the Commander in Chief
And said "Tell me great hero, but please make it brief.
Is there a hole I can be sick in?"

Bob Dylan wrote that!

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 01:01 PM

Dyslexia a gift?
That's fucking preposterous.
It's nothing more than a learning difficulty, of which everyone has one or several.
That's what school is for, to learn how to overcome them asap, not under the auspices of airy-fairy, drippy-hippy so-called 'natural' teachers but properly trained ones.
Does anybody know why I'm bothering to point this out to Mrs Route anyway?
This is someone who knows sod all about teaching of any sort, let alone music teaching.
Get thee to MySpace and try and cure your floating greengrocer's apostrophe on the way.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 01:14 PM

Lizzie, you say that he has got it,well that is your opinion and you are entitled to it,other people are entitled to disagree.
But if ERIC THE RED can,t understand his diction[I too thought his diction was poor]then that is an important thing that he should work on.
personally, I would rate Damien Barber more highly as a singer,each to their own.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 02:09 PM

Oh Damien's great too! I'm fuming that he and the Demon Barbers aren't at Sidmouth this year...


From Diane: (countess)>>>Dyslexia a gift?
That's fucking preposterous.
It's nothing more than a learning difficulty, of which everyone has one or several.
That's what school is for, to learn how to overcome them asap, not under the auspices of airy-fairy, drippy-hippy so-called 'natural' teachers but properly trained ones.<<<


Don't be a twit Diane. You can't 'overcome' Dyslexia. You're born with it, pure and simple. However, what dyslexic people do have to learn how to overcome is the ignorant, unpleasant and disturbingly stupid opinions of people such as yourself.

Most people with dyslexia are able to do this of course, because with dyslexia also comes a deep intelligence. And school is not, as you would have it be, some sort of SS Academy run by Miss Trunchbull's...although sadly we have a Trunchbull Government in charge at present, who are determined to put half the population in The Chokey...

Below is what school should be for:



"Whatever an education is, it should make you a unique individual, not a conformist; it should furnish you with an original spirit with which to tackle the big challenges; it should allow you to find values which will be your road map through life; it should make you spiritually rich, a person who loves whatever you are doing, wherever you are, whomever you are with; it should teach you what is important, how to live and how to die." John Taylor Gatto


The Wisdom of John Taylor Gatto

And this Diane, is especially for you:

"The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn." - Alvin Toffler


And now....back to Seth Lakeman

Seth Lakeman's Wikipedia page

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 02:31 PM

Sorry guys, this thread's about Seth...start a separate Lizzie Bashing one if you feel the need.

So, who tried to make it about Show of Hands? Who was it who started lashing out indiscriminately at everyone on the thread for decrying Seth when, as I pointed out, no such thing happened. Who was it who started calling everyone who does not like what you like such things as 'fundementalists' and likening those who enjoy traditional music to the sadists who torture puppies?

Nice try Lizzie but no prizes. Bad at trying to twist what happened. Bad at reading what has gone on before and now even worse at trying to derail an argument by blaming other people!

Lizzie, I really did try to defend you in the past. Your enthusiasm is a beauty to behold. Your possitive attitude does you credit but I am afraid I have now given up. I would not dream of 'bashing' you but when anyone so blatantly causes so much mayhem and confusion I feel I no longer want anything to do with them.

I shall not address or comment on your posts any longer.

Goodby and good luck.

Dave

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Blowzabella who has somehow lost her cookie
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 02:41 PM

oooh Dave - I don't think Lizzie likened Traditional music fans to puppy torturers - I had to read right through the thread to see what on earth you were referring to for that! Naughty - she likened us / them to people who show dogs at Crufts. Not the same thing at all. Breed purists was the point she was making (albeit emotionally and not using a very good analogy, I'll grant you) - but saying she likened folkies to puppy torturers is naughty - cos she didn't say that - or mean that - and you know that - and people who show dogs at crufts aren't puppy torturers anyway.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 02:53 PM

I think Dave was playing Lizzie at her own game, exaggerating for effect, it's a ploy she uses a lot. Seems only fair that it's used against her occasionally!
G

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 03:51 PM

You can't 'overcome' Dyslexia

Mrs. Route, once again you seem to be talking about something of which you know little.

First of all - why not do as you yourself said you would do earlier this week and stop posting on here. You will not be missed.

Secondly whilst dyslexia cannot be "cured" a person can be taught a whole range of strategies which can render it virtually invisible. I have had students with severe dyslexia go to University and with one memorable student the university would not even acknowledge that the student was dyslexic until they separated her from her computer.

However there are indications that things can be massively improved.

Let me quote you a source:

Dyslexia-specific brain activation profile becomes normal following successful remedial training.

It's a peer-reviewed academic paper given in 2002 easily found on the internet and concludes:

.....that the deficit in functional brain organization underlying dyslexia can be reversed after sufficiently intense intervention lasting as little as 2 months, and are consistent with current proposals that reading difficulties in many children represent a variation of normal development that can be altered by intensive intervention.

It is why trained teachers like my wife spend two years doing courses part time and often in their own time and with their own money to help them learn a range of ways of dealing with the range of dyslexia that is found nowadays in an FE college.

I am sure there are a huge number of educational researchers who will be interested in your statement that "with dyslexia also comes a deep intelligence".

I and the hundreds of other people who spend their whole lives working with students with dyslexia have never noticed this and I will be delighted to read the results of your peer-reviewed and published research that leads you to say this. For there seems to be no-one else in the world of educational research publications that agrees with you.

Of course I suppose they could all be dyslexic fundamentalists all frightened to acknowledge your superior knowledge.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 04:22 PM

A well-known musician of my acquaintance is severely dyslexic but, following a brief spell of remedial teaching as described by Dave, passed a Cambridge entrance exam, was awarded an Exhibition and went on to acquire a good degree. He still has difficulty reading music but learned abc instead. Mrs Route counted him among her 'boysies' (to his intense irritation) at one point but has now, thankfully, as a result of her extremely limited attention span, desisted. For this reason I won't disclose his name as he is revelling in getting back his life and reputation.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 05:06 PM

A thing I don't understand is remarks like, "It's not folk" and therefore it's not good. The guy ain't bad. Who cares if it's 'folk' or not. When I want Celtic, I'll listen to Celtic. When I want Jimmy Rofers I'll listen to Jimmy Rogers. When I want the Stones I'll listen to the Stones. I have real difficulty understanding narrow mindedness that would exclude good music from anyone just because it doesn't fall in a certain category.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 05:21 PM

The guy ain't bad

Well, he's fairly bad (compared to how 'quite good' he used to be in the Lakeperson boy band a decade ago.

Not only that but he's boring (all his songs sound more or less the same) and he abuses violins.

Is he 'f*lk'?
Dunno, I never really bother to go into that and rarely use the word anyway.
As English Jon said many posts ago, don't ask me to listen to it (or in the case of Mrs Route, bloody well stop TELLING me to listen to it).
NO!

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Peace
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 05:27 PM

LOL

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Scrump
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 05:50 PM

I still think you're talking bollocks, Scrump - sorry!!

PS I love that 'therefore' - it makes you sound so logical and sweetly reasonable. For my part, I'm not at all reasonable - as you may have gathered. I'm pissed off with trendy idiots buggering around with folk music. I'm a 'fundamentalist' - ooherr!!

Then I shan't attempt to justify this remark: you are an obnoxious, bigoted, blinkered, opinionated, supercilious tosser, Shimrod.

If you're so 'pissed off' then why don't you just piss off yourself, and do the rest of us a favour?

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 06:31 PM

Apologies for thread drift folks...normal Seth Service will be resumed as soon as possible :0)

>>>Mrs. Route, once again you seem to be talking about something of which you know little.<<<

OK...SHORT ANSWER: ;0)

Father, brother, son, daughter...and me to a lesser degree, but on the same circle....

Sorry about that Dave...but I know first hand, second hand, third hand and fourth hand about dyslexia.


LONG ANSWER...DON'T READ IF IT'S GOING TO DRIVE YOU BATS! ;0)


I know how it feels, I know how the brain works, I know how people are belittled and the terrible anger and hurt that it causes too. I can tell you so many signs of the dyslexic child...I can spot them these days...The wriggling, the lack of attention, the chattering, the often excited, sunny nature (although this gets lost along the way if no-one understands them) the inquisitive mind, the quick wit and intellect...the way they watch with their eyes, learning through their vision, their ears, their hands...touching, absorbing everything so very much in that respect.

My son was already being belittled by his teacher at age 7. He went to a 'dyslexic' class where he was sat in front of a computer and typed out the same words over and over and over. The theory being that evenutally it would er..'sink in'...it doesn't. My brother has to this day, never lost his anger at being called stupid by teachers who were convinced he was lazy...but in fairness to those teachers, they weren't aware so much of dyslexia in those days. But they could have been understanding and more sympathetic. He has his own business now, but every school report he ever had, said how lazy he was. Nope...he wasn't.

He can tell you what any piece of furniture is made of at a glance, he can restore anything you give him, he can build his own house, but purely because he cannot write or read, society forced him out...as they did for many of his friends too. His good friend who ran the rubbish dump in Somerset, Ted, signed everything with an X...Ted had grotty jobs all his life, yet he designed and built his own house, on the Somerset Levels too...No mean feat I can assure you.

Diane, if you truly have a friend who is severely dyslexic then I am staggered at the way you belittled and verbally abused so very many people on the BBC, calling them ignorant and stupid for their grammatical errors or spelling mistakes for so very long. You should have known better and been far more sensitive. Surely?

Dyslexia cannot be cured by science. Or papers...or theories. Ronald Davis HAS designed a way to re-train certain parts of the brain..but this takes a lot of practice and committment, eventually however, some students are able to make letters stay on the page. But not all people suffer from 'moving letters'...Some simply miss whole words or read them round the wrong way, or get physically immensely tired by reading. They also cannot read masses of words without short paragraphs being there...Masses of words are confusing and overwhelming.

It can also be helped by being deeply understood by others, being recognised and being seen merely as another way of learning, which is all it is. We ALL learn differently, our brains work differently. Nature makes us all different for a purpose, that purpose being for the continuation of the species....Hence there is the doctor, the nurse, the undertaker, the chef, the musician, the teacher, the scientist, the explorer..etc...etc..etc....We all have different paths to go down in our lives, different roles to fill, for a reason. What is happening now, with the National Curriculum is that so many different brain patterns are being forced to conform to The Pattern Of One..and that is driving many children out of their minds.   

As a child I never sat still, I had to touch everything, because that's how I learnt, looking wasn't enough. Writing was so hard, holding the pen and then having to make those movements, especially being left-handed so therefore they were all back to front..I couldn't concentrate, my mind would flit everywhere, it still does, even when I talk, I'm off down different paths at the drop of a hat.

I used to talk with my hands, but this annoyed some folk, and at school they tried to stop me. I then developed a stutter, because my hands were part of my speech and with not being able to use them freely I had trouble making my words come out. (Yes..I can hear the jokes..."Quick tie her hands behind her back! ;0) ) I stopped doing that and used my hands again, because I HAD to and was thus able to talk normally once more......I have pictures for words...my vocabulary is limited and I use the same words over and over..It goes with the brain pattern..I can't remember things or put them in the right chronological order...History is a Mystery in that I have no Timeline, unless it is in front of me...I forget words when I speak....I do find them eventually if the person opposite has the patience to wait, so often they don't though.

So Dave...I DO know about dyslexia because I am right inside it. That is why I fought Diane so hard on the BBC board about it. Many creative people just have brains like that, that's all...it's no big deal to be honest, until you get surrounded by folk who tell you that there is only one way to spell a word, only one way to learn, only one way to write, and that...is...THEIR way. THAT'S when the trouble starts...and it's all around us in our education system today.

Dyslexia IS a gift. But for so many, the gift is torn apart and trodden on. It is thrown in their face and they learn to despise it and to despise those around them. They become confused, angry and withdrawn..their self-esteem plummets and they really start to believe that they are stupid...they are NOT!

That shouldn't happen to ANY child, but sadly it still does. Often the dyslexic person does not get the help they should ALWAYS have had, until they are grown up. Then...they are treated with kindess, understanding and respect. But that is the way they should ALWAYS have been treated, right from the start! It is far more common than many think. It is a huge problem and it needs to be recognised and not brushed under the carpet as 'not existing'

Folk music, particularly English Folk Music, seems to draw people in who are fastidious about facts, words, dates, notes, memories etc..etc..almost to the point of obsession....and there's nowt wrong with that...for without those brain patterns, things would not be researched in detail and written down for all. But some of those people just need to remember that not all brains are like theirs. I can type out 3,000 words in minutes...but I couldn't tell you, even to this day, which tracks are on which Show of Hands CDs or even Seth's...who has far fewer....my brain just won't do it.


Of course, ALL of the above could merely be my usual complete twaddle...I could just be related to a goldfish.... ;0)



And now..back to that Sizzling, Fizzling, Fire-Work Of A Folkie...

Seth Lakeman!


:0)

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 06:32 PM

Ooh..Nice one Scrump! ;0)

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 08:18 PM

Lizzie

You arent dyslexic, what you are is bad mannered, rude, obnoxious, pig ignorant, arrogant and severely lacking in taste, the ability to consider anyone elses opinion or taste as equal in value to your own.

Why exactly you spend your entire miserable existance floating from one forum to another when you clearly arent welcome spamming nonsense about subjects you know nothing about and causing numerous problems for artists whose reputations you harm escapes me, was one of the teachers who allegedly caused problems for your brother an accordion player or something?

Oh and back on topic, Seth Lakemans music is shite, terribly sorry but its MOR, lacking in substance and he could do better, far far better and the fact that you repeatedly try to force it on people is little more than an indication of your lack of taste and knowledge of folk (or any other) music.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Declan
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:13 PM

Nobody here is asking anybody to like anything. That's your choice.

I dislike lots of things. That's my right.

But why does anyone feel the need to actively start a thread slagging something off on the basis of two minutes listening?

I understand that Seth has two big things going against him.

(1) is Lizzie's constant gushing about him. This does nobody any favours. Lizzie if you don't understand that you're damaging all the acts you keep on about, then this may not persuade you. But you are. So if you care please stop.

(2) is the whole folk awards contoversy. This has not helped Seth. Lots of people say it has nothing to do with him personally, but I think this is very naive. Even if one accepts that the error has nothing to do with Seth, as some people claim, the controversy has been damaging. And there's been a huge amount of innuendo that Seth gave a trad attribution in order to win the award, which to me makes no sense, but the charge is out there.

Countess (Diane), you asked why you spend so much time refuting Lizzie. Great Question, you should work out the answer and then stop doing it.

As has been pointed out a lot of the replies (including my own) have been vaguely positive, but the basic premise of the thread has been negative. So what was the point of setting it up in the first place. Andy is congratulated for setting it up to "stir things up", so what does that achieve?

Scrump, Shimrod's definition of "bollocks" appears to be anything he disagrees with. If s/he is going to use the word with such monotonous regularity, it would be worth while learning how to spell it.

As for Aran jumpers, it seems that Seth wears jeans and a tee-shirt. How does this differentiate him from most of the folkies I've ever met?

And all the dyslexia and class stuff is a total red herring.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,CN
Date: 10 Mar 07 - 09:47 PM

For heaven's sake all you people...Seth's a very nice kid who's having some good fortune right now. He's a good fiddle player & singer, and has been been brought up surrounded by folkies. Whether you like his recordings or not is really neither here nor there...the fact is that lots of people are listening to his stuff that would never in a million years get involved in any kind of local folk club. There's a reasonable chance that some of these folks might go on to listen to other stuff from the same genre. For that we owe him a pint. Anything that attracts new listeners can't be a bad thing. Just my 02p.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:23 AM

Mrs Route's up to her Chubby Checker activities again.
So Boring.
I've certainly castigated people for carelessness and laziness and not bothering to check spelling and facts before applying fingers to keyboard.
It's not only me that has had so much time wasted chasing wrongly spelled tune titles or artists' names.
Yet Mrs Route continues to assert it's wrong to say there's only one way to spell a word (or indeed that there is but one way to define traditional material).
Complete bollocks.
Though she's got just one thing right, that her vocabulary is limited and she uses the same words over and over again.
Doesn't she just. This is what is 'ignorant and stupid'.

But no. She's got her teeth into yet another tinpot theory and continues to spout it in the face of documented research.
Not exactly academic.
SO JUST STOP IT.
It's tedious and wrong and makes you look even more of a complete arse.

Oh and as for the dyslexic musician I mentioned earlier, not a friend exactly, just someone I know as most people do (or, in the case of Mrs Route, used to fawn over in a particularly nauseating way). He has no interest in her 'sympathy', only in the remedial teaching from experts that has enabled him to function in a literate world.

He plays his tunes and has no difficulty whatsoever in distinguishing white from black hares.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 03:43 AM

Dyslexia is a gift............uh-huh..............Severe mental retardation must be the combination of 20 great Christmas mornings and 30 of the happiest birthdays!

Is this simpleass twit for real? What a total mook.........And all of you have been putting up with her dumbshit opinions for a long time huh?

Here Lizdick Cornpone....Can you spell IGNOFUCKINGRAMUS?

........................geeziz.................

Spaw

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 03:53 AM

Lissie may be very annoying, but that, spaw, was unnecessary as well as ill-informed.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:25 AM

"Then I shan't attempt to justify this remark: you are an obnoxious, bigoted, blinkered, opinionated, supercilious tosser, Shimrod."

Yep! That just about sums it up, and, do you know, I'm quite proud of it! At least I'm not a miserable 'fashion victim' distracted by every passing whim and eager to ingratiate myself with 'young people' in the pathetic hope that they might like the same sort of music that I like. Just remember that you might end up dumbing down and diluting our favourite musical form only to find that the little tossers have jumped ship in order to pursue some other superficial fad.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:25 AM

First of all I agree with Richard, spaw, that post was uncalled for.

Secondly Mrs. Route, I am delighted that you know how the brain works. I drive a car - I have no more idea of how it works than flying to the moon. But I have daily first hand experience of it. First, second, third, fourth and fifth hand. But I am happy for you to know how the brain works.

but I couldn't tell you, even to this day, which tracks are on which Show of Hands CDs or even Seth's...who has far fewer....my brain just won't do it.

We all realised that Mrs. Route. We all realised it for instance because you wrote last week that you had stopped posting to this board that your short term memory is poor.

Here is what the Birmingham Adult Dyslexia Group says about that.

When a dyslexic person is under pressure or stressed the effects of short-term memory loss are intensified even more

Mrs Route, you don't have to take my advice but here are two helpful ideas.

First of all try and relieve your stress, all the evidence shows it will help your short-term memory, so you will remember when you have written that you will not post to this board and threads any more. I think posting to these boards increases the intensity of your stress.

Secondly, and this is a very serious point and I want you to think about it carefully.

The UK is desperate for trained dyslexia teachers. Really really desperate. So why not go and get qualified so instead of talking about how much you know on this board, and then you will be able to do something concrete and useful and help the people who have this problem.

It will have the added advantage of keeping you busy.

Subject: RE: So thats seth lakeman is it
From: Tootler
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:05 AM

I suggest the main protagonists in this so-called discussion go back and reread the thread asking yourselves the question "How do I come over in this".

If you are honest to yourselves, you will not like the answer you get.

None of you.