Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC

Subject: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 25 - 03:20 PM

It's a rabbit hole of my own creation: a while back I bought an external hard drive to use as my computer backup, with the plan to put it in the closet where the modem, router, and LAN switch are situated. This keeps that backup in a separate place from all of the computer equipment (if, dog forbid, another burglary would happen, the backup would be overlooked if the desktop computer was stolen from the office.) Putting it there also keeps a another piece of equipment off of my already crowded computer desk.

Today (when I had something else I really should be doing) I decided to plug in the HD to the USB port on the Netgear router. I addressed the router and logged in, and found notification of a firmware update. Took care of that. The system works fine. But I'm also seeing that this is an End Of Life product that will not be supported in the future. So going to the trouble of setting up the external backup is something I should put off until I update the router.

The modem I'm using is recently supplied by AT&T (fiber optic) but I have a passthrough setup with my router so I didn't have to fool with changing any of my network stuff, the router is still doing all of the heavy lifting. I also use a switch to have enough ports the serve the various wired data ports in most rooms around the house.

There is no gaming here and the streaming I do is fine with the 300G service I pay for. Routers that used to be dual band (2.4 Ghz and 5 Ghz) now also offer 6 GHz (lower range, higher speed) as an FCC requirement. My phone could connect to it, but that's all. The house is 2400sf and the yard is large and being connected in the separate garage is useful. There is a wireless access point (connected to the LAN) in the den that helps with that (and my next door neighbor sometimes connects to it if her service goes out. She works at her kitchen table that is closer to my system than the one in her own house. We have an arrangement.)

I've bought various brands over the years, and except for Netgear, most of them have had some internal failure and just stopped working. Asus had a lovely interface but wasn't around long enough to do much with it. I've had Linksys die in the past. TP-Link seems to be the darling these days.

I see a technology called "easy mesh" that I think I've managed on my own with the wireless access box. What all of this is leading up to is there are a lot of reasonably priced routers out there without all of the bells and whistles, just the 6 GHz upgrade, but I want something that is a new enough model that I won't face another End Of Life situation with a device that is still for sale now but was in fact released a few years ago.

What devices are you using and what would you consider switching to if the occasion arises?

This backup drive is meant to be used for a full fresh backup of the computer so that if I decide to upgrade to Win11 I'll still have the backup if I want to revert back or if Win11 loses anything. But that's another struggle for a different day. (I have an external hard drive on my desk with a backup now, using the Win7 image backup that is still in both Win10 and 11. This would be a duplicate to that backup.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 25 - 03:28 PM

I looked up old threads here at Mudcat before starting this; the 2010 thread discussing this had an opinion near the end of I wouldn't bother with wireless, it's a total waste of space, not to mention money. I'm sure the only reason the manufacturers/ISP's etc. push it so hard is that they've got so much dosh invested in it.

How far we've come since then.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: DaveRo
Date: 12 Mar 25 - 05:31 PM

It depends on so many factors.
Replace the EOL firmware on the Netgear with OpenWRT if supported?
Why not just use the AT&T router? Does it support a USB disk?
If not buy a NAS from Netgear or QNAP or similar? A raid device would be more reliable than a USB disk. Or use a RaspberryPi as a NAS. (I do.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 25 - 06:15 PM

I've always used a separate router from the modem, and at this point the AT&T modem/router doesn't have enough ports and would require fussing with. Which is why I stuck with my existing router. A NAS device is way more tech than I need and I'm not interested in learning how to do the RasperryPi, Linux, etc. Just a simple setup with a networked external drive to backup the computer. But the networked part of it would probably be easier with a newer device and friendly software.

If it would speed things a little to take the router out of the sequence I might consider it, but would have to probably add another of LAN switch because the AT&T device doesn't have as many LAN ports. Originally I wired the phones in the house, then switched those over to data ports. Things like the streaming devices to the televisions are all connected via LAN for faster and more reliable streaming. I just looked, the AT&T modem does have a USB port.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: DaveRo
Date: 12 Mar 25 - 06:53 PM

New routers seem to have fewer ethernet ports, only 3 on mine. I use an 8-port switch: NetGear ProSafe from ebay, only 100Mb/s, but faster than wifi and takes traffic off the wifi network.

Consumer NAS boxes are supposedly Windows-friendly, GUI interface etc. Of course they also become EOL eventually.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Mar 25 - 07:20 PM

That's what I have in use now, two ports open. Doing the math if I swap to AT&T with three I'd end up with one spare. I'll have to research using the external drive to backup the computer using the modem on that USB port. The router does offer an extra level of security, a different IP than the modem, etc. That has always been a reason for using both devices.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: DaveRo
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 03:55 AM

Stilly River Sage wrote: The router does offer an extra level of security...

Does it though? If the AT&T device is running as a router it will presumably provide the usual NAT 'firewall' and the USB disk will be on the 'local' side of it. But in passthrough mode, with no NAT, is there any additional security? I don't know. It depends on the device.

Personally, I wouldn't want a backup disk so near the internet. If I did use the USB port (I have one on my BT Hub) I wouldn't leave it plugged in. (We discussed backups and ransomware before.)

My 'NAS' (rather a fancy name for an RPi+1TB USB disk) is, as you say, essentially a Linux box so it has its own firewall. It's mainly a music server but takes occasional backups and cost ~£100. The disk is spun down when not in use. A proper 2-bay NAS is maybe 3 times as expensive but would provide RAID and would better cope with continuous operation - it you need that. But googling NASes I get the impression that they're becoming obsolete with the rise of cloud storage.

To your original question - what would I buy as a replacement router - I've had a good experience with Netgear. Before the BT Hub (necessary for using BT as an ISP and a good box, though unconfigurable) I used a Netgear DM200 modem and R6400 router. Netgear sent me the R6400 free as a replacement for a cheaper one that didn't perform as it should, so I've had support from them too. I've had many Netgear routers, and they've all been configurable in much the same way. But the last was 4 years ago.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 04:39 AM

I have a TP-Link Deco Mesh WiFi System. I paid $153 for 3 units in April 2021, and now Amazon has them for $130. They've been terrific - and now they work well for streaming on my 4k television. But will TP-Link be outlawed soon?

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 01:37 PM

That's the question - if the drive is mapped from the computer it can be clobbered by a virus or ransomware, but to use it as backup it's usually incremental and I don't want to keep turning it on and off. Having it out of the main area is to protect it from theft or harm to the desktop, a separate issue (the house was burglarized in 2005 when I was at work; I now have steel security doors, two dogs, and am home most of the time.)

Joe, your three units are WiFi or wired, or you have a choice? And it's basically a base and repeaters for the signal, isn't it? Who knows what will be blocked or banned or tariffed in this day and age. The Chinese manufacturers have some workarounds that keep a lot of their goods off the Trump radar.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 03:25 PM

Dave, there is a spare LAN port on the WiFi switch in the den, but the hard drive has a USB connection only. I could use one of these if the computer would let me address the drive clear off in the other side of the house.

I have a peripheral adapter from when I was trying to expand the number of USB ports my laptop could use and picked up an adaptor (USB on one end, LAN port on the other, and three USB3.0 ports on the body of it). It didn't recognize anything, but maybe I need to map to them? (Separate issue.) That device won't work here but reminds me that someone somewhere will always have built an adapter to solve this problem.

More research required. For many years the go-to place for adapters and connecters and such was a warehouse-sized electronics store that closed four years ago called Fry's Electronics where you could browse up and down aisles of all sorts of gadgets and switches and cables and ports and whatnot, as well as building your own computer, set up your own home electronic systems for all sorts of things. Radio Shack closed, they had a wall of that stuff. Now it's a few places in town with a few choices or Amazon. eBay is still a source, maybe I'll look there.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: DaveRo
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 04:03 PM

You said you had a wireless AP in the den. What is a wifi switch? (And what's a den? I've often wondered.)

I'm puzzled by that adapter. I can see how a device that has both USB and ethernet ports, like a PC or our routers, could convert an ethernet port to a USB socket - the box is already a USB hub. But an ethernet switch isn't, yet the pictures show it being used with one.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 04:32 PM

In Texas they have a lot of houses with what amount to two living rooms. Here I refer to the large one as the den and the second one as the front room.

The device in the den is plugged into a LAN port in the wall but serves as a wireless boost and a LAN site (I have the streaming Fire stick and the Blueray player wired for streaming TV and things like Netflix plugged into it). There is room there for one more wired device. It's a Netgear device to extend WiFi signal with the bonus of the functionality of a 4-port switch.

Talking it out here and making myself go through the baskets of cables and peripherals has been helpful. Thanks! (I looked up "using Western Digital external drive as NAS" and it came back that they have some meant for that, and I remember that I bought some for that that I used in a different way. Too small now to put them to the original use, but I'll look at the specs on this new one and see what's up.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 05:01 PM

SRS, my three units are WiFi. They're all identical, but one is master and the other two are slaves. Each has an Ethernet port, maybe two (I can't see without disassembling). I have an Ethernet cable from my modem to one unit, and another Ethernet cable from a second unit to my computer. My TV works on WiFi, but I'm considering hardwiring it to my third mesh unit. Are the two "slave" units just repeaters? I dunno, but they work a heck of a lot better than repeaters I've tried in the past. My signal is equally strong throughout the house.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Mar 25 - 05:33 PM

I think that is exactly what they are, Joe. They amplify the signal to cover the space. The setup I have works well. There are a couple of TVs in the house that are WiFi and distant from either WiFi signal source but work fine. The mesh setup is newer version of this system since I put in my device to extend my WiFi signal.

I took a look at an old HD that was for storage; they come with extra software so they can be used for more than one computer, but I don't need that. (And the old drive is tiny by today's standards - just 2Tb.)

I think I probably have enough gear here, if I get the adapter, to set this up to serve as a backup for the desktop computer. My laptop serves as a spare, a backup if something happens to the big one, and on several occasions I've been able to keep working during outages while using my phone as a hotspot for the laptop. I can save anything from that into the MS OneDrive to grab later from the big computer. (I have a tablet that could approximate some of the laptop work, but they're not really great for complex tasks.)

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: DaveRo
Date: 14 Mar 25 - 12:45 PM

Having read the description of that adapter, looked at the diagrams, and read the reviews I'm pretty sure it doesn't allow you to run a USB device off an ethernet port, except apparently on some ADSL modems that have a combined ethernet + USB RJ45 socket.

I see you can get 'mini PCs' which are somewhat equivalent to a RaspberryPi and run Windows 11. Mostly ~£150 but there's one on Amazon for £80 - brand 'PELADN'. It's unobtrusive, but you'd have to work out how to access it. Remote Windows Desktop, if there is such a thing?

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 14 Mar 25 - 01:15 PM

Please remember to disconnect the remote drive, physically if possible, whenever it's not being actively used. It'll be a pain to reconnect and disconnect each time, but if (Heaven forefend) your system gets infested by a wiper, it'd compound your misery by going looking for remote backup media.

Oh, and I'd say "test you can restore from your backups", but I won't need to say that in present company. End of core dump.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 15 Mar 25 - 08:50 PM

With Radio Shack, Fry's gone ... my immediate source for walk-in is "Best Buy.

NetGear has been dependable.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Joe - you need to be careful with that term "slave" in today's world ... it has been banned in tech talk for almost two decades.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Mar 25 - 10:56 PM

DaveRo, I came to the same conclusion (I always drop down to the negative reviews first to see who tried something and why it didn't work. A guy described the exact same project and that it didn't work.)

Still thinking about it. This has been a good occasion to check out the status of equipment, such as the UPS in the closet. I just checked the manual and my notes show me that the battery in it was replaced just over two years ago. It has an LED that blinks when it needs replacing, but it might be a good time to consider it now anyway. But that doesn't get me any closer to a backup.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Mar 25 - 10:49 AM

I just Googled "Western Digital NAS" and came up with an 8TB (smallish) device for US $450. Oy!

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Mar 25 - 12:15 PM

Best Buy lists your WD with 10T for $249.99

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Mar 25 - 12:56 PM

I have a drive already to use, so looked at that other one for a comparison. Another reverse-engineering attempt (various cables) didn't work. Still thinking I either need to use the AT&T modem as is or get a new router.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Mar 25 - 12:04 PM

When all else fails, a search landing on Reddit is helpful. I found someone describing the exact scenario I am trying to solve - the modem passthrough router setup using AT&T's modem and Netgear router. And wondering if they should use the USB on the AT&T modem instead of the more elaborate setup replacing the router.

Before that search I found manuals (not very helpful) for the AT&T modem and it shows the USB port with but no information. Reddit's user had confirmation from several folks that while the USB is there, it doesn't have a current use so AT&T has it disabled. It might be used for charging (if you didn't have a gazillion other ways around the house for charging things.)

My goal over there is to find information, if I make a remark be sure it is helpful, and never get a down-vote. So far so good.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 25 - 07:50 PM

DtG solved a similar problem this week, serving as inspiration to go forth and replace the router and set up my backup. It may mean here, like it did for him, re-connecting a whole bunch of WiFi devices, but it's worth the trouble to have a good backup on an affordable large external drive.

Subject: RE: Tech: Time to update modem/router WAC
From: DaveRo
Date: 21 Mar 25 - 04:34 AM

DaveRo wrote: I see you can get 'mini PCs' which are somewhat equivalent to a RaspberryPi and run Windows 11. Mostly ~£150 but there's one on Amazon for £80 - brand 'PELADN'. It's unobtrusive, but you'd have to work out how to access it. Remote Windows Desktop, if there is such a thing?

These mini-PCs have become a lot cheaper since I first looked at the Intel NUC, which were more expensive than a full-sized PC.

To connect using Windows Remote Desktop it (perhaps both PCs) would have to be running Windows 11 Professional - which those PELADN boxes (about £170 on Amazon at the moment) claim to do.

(You don't really need a gui at all. My RPi doesn't have one, but I'm familiar with using Linux at the command line. Presumably you could control a Windows server from the command line: perhaps it can emulate PC DOS! You'd need a display and keyboard to set it up, but not permanently.)

Running a full-blown Windows 11 PC - albeit a tiny one - just to run a USB disk seems a bit OTT. There's the requirement to keep it updated and secure. But like my RaspberryPi - now in its third incarnation - you'd probably find other things for it to do.