BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bert
Date: 07 Mar 08 - 11:21 PM

Mmmm. Trouble is I don't remember too many good things when my Mum died when I was seven years old.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:26 AM

There will always be things that appear "bad" from anyone's particular point of view, Bert.

What if you've already lived 5,000 lives and seen about 4,752 of your mothers in those lives die? (in some of them you died first)

Then what?

What kind of overview would it be in the light of all that?

Just a possibility to consider.

Whatever seems "bad" in this life...and there will always be things that seem that way...there's also "good" in this life. Without both of them being here, you couldn't know the difference...like day and night.

So the question is, what do we focus on? The bad things or the good things? Or both? Well, and to what extent then?

I've noticed that some people focus mainly on the "bad" things...and I've been in that state of mind a lot myself. It makes for a rough journey. I've noticed that the ones who focus mainly on the "good" things have a smoother and more joyous journey and they bounce back quicker when things don't "work out".

Still, you can't take someone else's decision to focus on something away. If he wants to believe he's living in misery, he will, regardless of how someone else might see it. That's up to him, right?

So we all get the life that we believe we're getting...as it unfolds and we observe it through the frame we have decided to put around it.

"It's a tragedy." "It's an adventure." "It's a misery." "It's a challenge." "It's a joke." "It's boring." "It's tedious." "It's great!" "It's a living hell!"

All of those things could be said by one person about one life, depending how he chose to look at it at any given time.

To ask "where was God?" when a tragedy occured misses the point. God didn't go away, because what is omnipresent CAN'T go away. God isn't there to hand out just the candies and treats and save you from your problems and pain, God is the entire field of being upon and in which the "good" and "bad" things all happen. It's like a fish asking "Where did the world go?" when he gets caught on a hook. The world didn't go anywhere. It's still there, and the fish is part of it.

But if you don't believe that, then you won't experience it, and that's okay. Everyone is free to experience exactly what they believe.

I've been complaining about various "bad" stuff that happened in my life since ever... ;-) I'm a bit immature in that respect. Yet the fact is, I've been pretty darned lucky compared to a lot of people in this world.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bert
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 12:47 AM

You don't experience what you believe. You experience what happens. What you believe is how you interpret what happens.

So YOU try telling a seven year old kid, whose Mum has just died, that God did it. The poor brat probably won't feel "pretty darned lucky".

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 10:07 AM

Well, you know...Bob might just have something there about subjective reality. I was just reading this article by a professor of Physics, who seems to put it in context. Kinda technical, but it has a lot of research and detail.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 10:47 AM

Some sort of belief construct has to be in place for experience to occur at all.

It is of interest to ask what the impact of such a construct is, and how, and to what degree, it monitors or filters the quality of realized experience (as a subset of all possible experience in a given moment).


A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 01:01 PM

Bill D: Yes, it was an interesting article. Especially: "3 It has thus become increasingly apparent that physical ``reality'', no less than social ``reality'', is at bottom a social and linguistic construct; that scientific ``knowledge", far from being objective, reflects and encodes the dominant ideologies and power relations of the culture that produced it; that the truth claims of science are inherently theory-laden and self-referential; and consequently, that the discourse of the scientific community, for all its undeniable value, cannot assert a privileged epistemological status with respect to counter-hegemonic narratives emanating from dissident or marginalized communities." Thanks...

Bert: There was a great guitarist here in Montreal by the name of Peter Chalmers, whose funeral I attended. There, I met a young boy of 8. Both his parents had died and everybody was wondering, "what do we DO with him?" Relatives did come forth upon hearing the news, but I remember walking up the street with him wondering what to say. I remember we got some ice cream or something and talked about "stuff", but "God" having done it, to my memory, never came up. The little guy was definitely in a cloud that day. I'm sure your Mom smiles down upon you...And, all in all, you did make it through...Time to transcend?
Maybe do something noble, in her memory...

Little Hawk: Guard your thoughts. Letting your mind run free, thinking about "bad stuff", only brings more, "bad stuff." Positive affirmations can turn the tide, even in the face of apparent "impossibility." Your meditations can begin by a simple observation of the breath leaving your nostrils. Thoughts will come in to disturb the tranquility. When they do, talk to them as "entities". eg. That is to say, "I better fix my car..." Tell that thought, "I recognize you, and I will attend to that, but right now, in this moment, I (The BIG I) am in control of this meditation..."
Caruso was said to have been observed talking to himself before a concert, gripped with fear at the thought of having to go before a large audience. He was supposed to have said(to the fears/negative thoughts), "Get out, Get out...The BIG ME wants to sing..." If your mind is a "drunken monkey", attempt a clear 10 second interval, where YOU take control, and build from there. You may experience an event where the "demons" of the subconscious appear to you. These are merely your fears, TO BE PUT OUT. A tremendous power lies within, recognize it. And liberate your true self...

Blessings to All...
bob

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 02:31 PM

Bert, I don't follow you. What on earth would make you think I would tell a 7 year old kid whose mother had died that "God did it"?

I don't think of God as doing things to people. I don't think of God as an exterior agent, you see. I think of people as being in charge of their own destiny, within the limitations of their own awareness and their innate abilities....and, of course, they are often affected by other people too, and by situations around them.

We cannot guarantee that "bad" things won't happen to us or to someone else, but if they do it isn't because "God did it". Not in my opinion, anyway. There are many things that happen where it is impossible or downright irrational to assign blame to anyone...specially to God, of all things!

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:18 PM

follow up article to the one I posted about reality

one more






I suppose I ought to feel guilty, but somehow I don't. A search on the article title will reveal many more comments on it and its aftermath.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:19 PM

REALITY?

Why?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:23 PM

I opened your first link, Bill. A "Vote for Hillary" ad came up. Vas gibst?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:28 PM

1st link?? the original? Or at 4:18PM? I get a Wash Post blog article at the 4:18 link

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:33 PM

Must have been a passing popup.

Loved the second article.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 04:34 PM

It was an eye-opener...

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: bobad
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 05:00 PM

I'm glad to hear that Bill. I started to read the first article and thought - WTF, I either have a pea-sized brain or this is total BS.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 05:51 PM

"...a pea-sized brain or this is total BS."

There's plenty of both to go around.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: autolycus
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 06:21 PM

aamoi,Bill, how did you find the second, debunking article?

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 06:59 PM

Bob R., of course human thought can change the molecular structure within metal. That is what an electroencephalogram is/does: thought waves, brainwaves ( electromagnetic phenomena ) is recorded on metalized tape. It could also be recorded on a wire recorder. Because human thought activity IS electromagnetic it creates a small localized field. More could be said but that is big-time thread drift. Let me just say, I agree.

Back to the original post, Guest Ed is looking for an easier life from God. He doesn't really identify God but he does use the conventional Capital "G" which in occidental tradition usually identifies the one God as presented in the Bible. But about this I cannot be sure. One of the posters above equated the biblical God with Allah. This is not accurate by any stretch as Allah was a tribal god among many before the time of Mohammad. It was Mohammad's genius which consolidated the Arabian tribes under Allah. The partial recognition of Jewish scriptures by the Muslims muddies the picture somewhat but what I have stated is historically accurate.

As I posted earlier, it all depends upon how you define God. I don't believe Guest Ed was really considering the Christian God as the object of his desires. Christianity can be seen as a sect of Judaism which has been unequivocally denied by Judaism. Christians recognize Jesus of Nazareth as the Christ, the Messiah, the Promised One of the Old Testament. We believe Jesus is God incarnate: God taking on the fleshly FORM of Mankind in order to ultimately communicate with His creation who severed the former communication connection by disobeying God's sole commandment to them, to not eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

At any rate Jesus the Christ whom we recognize AS God had much to say about the conditions of Man's existence and in particular of His believers' existence in this world. The hardships and the ultimate demise of each person is the result of Man's original (first) sin. God told Man that in the day that he ate of fruit (actually "touched" the fruit) he would certainly die. That he didn't die right away allowed him to propagate and so pass the contagion on to his offspring. Jesus told His followers that IN the world they would have many trials. He told them that the rain will fall on the just and the unjust. That is to say that no one escapes the problems of the human condition. No free pass. As for His believers, he told them that He did not come to bring peace but a sword. That He would be a divider of men, brother against brother, son against the father , etc. and that anyone who was not willing to forsake hearth and home had no part in Him. He promised that if the world hated Him it would hate them also, that they would be persecuted and hounded and put to death for their belief. They would be reviled and mocked to scorn. They would be put out of the synagogues and churches and that those who killed them would believe that they were doing God a favor. If you want I can give you scripture and verse but most of you who know me know that I write from accurate Biblical knowledge. Nonetheless, let me now and I will post the same.

No Ed, if you are looking for an easier life, choose some other god or do like so many others have done, make your own or just skip it altogether. The cross of Christ is a heavy thing to bear if you are not willing to be a partaker of His death.

Oh, sorry! I left out the good part. If you really do believe in Him and accept your inevitable death and so "die" to this world and what IT affords you will also share in His resurrection and triumph over death, Hell and the grave. He promises you eternal Life with him and in Him and it begins the moment you believe and can never be taken from you. You have His Word on it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: John Hardly
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 07:05 PM

Just got back from my monthly jam in Goshen. Passed a Mennonite church with the one-huge-letter-per-window message:

"GOO IS LOVE"

I'm guessing that it probably said "GOD IS LOVE" but the kids weren't very careful about leaving the corners in the giant "D".

"GOO IS LOVE" would be a great name for a caramel store, though. Of course, I can't really imagine a whole store devoted to caramel. Both California and Indiana devoted whole cities to Carmel. That's different though.

If Luke Skywalker had been Mennonite, you know what they'd have called his diminutive mentor?


Yoder.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 07:38 PM

Hi Kids: Yes, Professor Sokol's hoax has been around for a long time. What made it interesting, besides his "creative wordplay," & BS is that he stumbles upon aspects of truth, unbeknown to him. There does NOT have to be a logical progression of anything...Just ask your Ex-wife...Or her lawyers, Lipshitz & Dipshitz...Now Lipshitz you can talk to, he's reasonable, But Dipshitz, Whoah!

This brought me back to High School where I was being questioned on an assignment. And the subject came up of , "do you like to read?" My answer, NO. (At that moment, I wanted to play basketball)Then I was asked by the same teacher, Well, "What do you want to do for a career?" I tell him, "I'm going to be an English Teacher." Well, the whole room breaks out laughing. So he says, "Well why do you want to be an English Teacher if you don't like to read? I reply, because I want to be an English Teacher." (The Groucho Marx in me appears...)

So as I began to go to College to be an English Teacher, I met a female Professor who went on about "the medium is the message." Pronouncing it like "massage." And citing people like Marshall McLuhan, etc. Then she tells me the texts we are working with are at such a "high level" that we (the class) would not be able to comprehend them. So she had to "adjust them a bit" so that we could understand. Again I get asked my opinion, (which if you haven't figured it out yet, is a "risky" thing to do. Did anybody get that? Ryszkiewicz-risky, aw ferget it)
So she asks me what I think of a particular passage and I tell her it's bullsh&t. She tells me, "You can't say that! I tell her, "sure I can, I just did." "Well, you have to substantiate that." I say, "No I don't." HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT? I tell her, "because it just IS." Shades of "you don't need a weather vane to tell which way the wind blows..."

Anyway, I graduated; given my Diploma at commencement by the same Dean who told me "I don't stand a chance." Moved the tassel on the mortarboard, shook his hand, and went off to be a teacher...

That all happened after I found God in a railroad car, while loading, I think it was 5000 cases of Jifoam oven cleaner in minus 5 degree F. weather, HE helped me graduate - really...


bob

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 07:45 PM

Slag: Thanks. I just finished my latest opus,(hippopotamus?) Then I saw your post. That durn article by the Japanese is out there in print, I wish I could find it...bob

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 08:08 PM

Ha! I love your story about your educational history, Bob! ;-)

"the man standing next to me, his head was exploding.
I was praying that the pieces wouldn't fall on me..."

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Chicken Charlie
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 08:18 PM

Believing in God is one thing; having God make things easier is another. Somewhere in Buddhism there's a conversation that goes something like this:

Seeker: What did you do before you were enlightened?
Master: I cut wood and carried water.
Seeker: What did you do after your were englightened?
Master: I cut wood and carried water.



Peace: Converse is a tennie, you dolt, and that's for being so rude with me on my inward-or-outward thread. Everybody else: This is a private joke; don't get on my case for saying "dolt." :)

CC

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 08:22 PM

"Peace: Converse is a tennie, you dolt, and that's for being so rude with me on my inward-or-outward thread."

What's a tennie? (I know what a dolt is.)

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 08:23 PM

And YOU, assuming the identity of Charlie Chicken when we KNOW that CC changed his name to G#G#. For shame!

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 08:24 PM

Whoops! Meant to say Chicken Charlie.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 09:13 PM

LH, Thank goodness you didn't say "jackass" or "ignoramus" or "nincompoop" or something insulting. The powers that be would then have no choice but to append this thread to the INSULT thread and that would be that. Fortunately you were quite accurate, as per usual. Uhh...Sorry Peace but you gotta call 'em as you see 'um! :)

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 09:16 PM

"What made it interesting, besides his "creative wordplay," & BS is that he stumbles upon aspects of truth, unbeknown to him. "

I rather thought that this would be the type of response I'd get. Even when the point of the whole 'hoax' is that people hear what they want to hear, and refuse to 'see' the internal flaws and messy logic, no one ever says, "Gee..I sure was careless there.."

reminds me of my favorite Peanuts cartoon:

Charlie Brown is walking along when he comes to Lucy, kneeling and looking at something on the sidewalk..."What are you doing , Lucy?"

"Charlie Brown--see this big black bug? Do you know why it's so much bigger than the others? Because it's the QUEEN!"..........so Charlie gets down and peers closely...

"Lucy, that's not a bug...that's a black jelly bean!"

Lucy gives him this LOOK and bends to scrutinize the bug again..."Why, so it is!...I wonder how a Jelly bean ever got to be queen!"

There's no way to make the point when your 'victim' just redefines the rules and explains that anything you say just proves his point.


Ces't la vie

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Mar 08 - 09:32 PM

Tennie = tennis shoe.

I don't know why I'm back in this thread. I discovered tonight that 'they' must've put in a new tower and my wireless went broadband. Been YouTubing my brains out. Don't know about God, but in Dinkybutt NH, tonight there is broadband.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 02:15 PM

I guess that's the problem. Convincing a rationalist to have faith is kind of like convincing a fish to breathe air.

Aren't sneakers called Trainers in English English?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 03:17 PM

Rationalists do have faith. Everyone has faith in whatever and whomever they normally rely upon as being worthy of their trust.

Faith is not just "belief in things there are no evidence for", it is also trust in someone or something without reservation, and that trust can be based ON evidence and observation and experience...or it can just be a blank assumption. When I was a kid I trusted the conventional views of science without reservation. That was a blank assumption on my part at the time, later backed up to some extent by observation. I had 100% faith from the start in conventional science...long BEFORE I had any direct proof of it. I also trusted my parents without reservation. And the government too. I soon discovered that my parents were fallible, and that the government lies now and then. ;-) I later discovered that any specific century's or even decade's scientific conventionality is also fallible...very much so. A great deal of it turns out to be wrong or inadequate in the centuries that follow.

I no longer have 100% faith in either my parents or the science community...nor, needless to say, in any church or religion. My faith is partial now.

Faith can be partial. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. I have partial faith in many things, like the science community, for example. There is almost nothing left anymore that I have full faith in except my own powers of direct observation and experience...oh, and some simple stuff that we all know about like that two plus two makes four, for instance, and that things fall down, not up, and that water flows to the lowest point and will evaporate at boiling point. Yeah, those things I have faith in. ;-)

Now, please resist the temptation to concoct something "clever" that appears superficially to contradict those last few examples of mine just to indulge in the pleasures of playing argumentative games and playing devil's advocate. Okay?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 04:57 PM

"...resist the temptation..." Okay, they say 'resistance is futile', anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Peace
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 05:02 PM

Ah, yes. Temptations.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 05:35 PM

more temptation maybe proof of the existance of a divine being? :)

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM

Faith...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XesXjkDLImg
It's Sunday, so I'm resisting the "temptation" to cast another pearl before Bill...

<:0) bob

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:13 PM

It's ok, I don't 'oink' on Sundays....(and if I'd remember Proverbs 13:3, I'd say a LOT less) ☺

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:15 PM

Emma:

If I were not a hard-bitten materialist (which I am not) I would say those artifacts definitely bear the earmarks of Intelligent Design!! There's no way they could have evolved without intelligent intentionality guiding their fate!


A

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:19 PM

Skating on thin ice, there Amos buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:37 PM

Little Hawk

When I was a kid I trusted the conventional views of science without reservation.

You were mistaken or, more likely, badly taught. The fundamental undelying principle of science is to question everything especially conventional views.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 06:51 PM

sorry Amos - if there really was Intelligent Design it wouldn't be fattening :)

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:05 PM

Bill: Peace & Blessings...May the Lord be with you in your time of need...
bob

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 07:40 PM

Snail - "You were mistaken or, more likely, badly taught. The fundamental undelying principle of science is to question everything especially conventional views."

That's true. But it's not as you think. I was aware that science questions everything...I simply was not quite careful enough as to how I worded my original statements in the previous post that you are alluding to.

What I meant was this: as a child I learned to approach the world strictly through the scientific viewpoint...as opposed to approaching it through the mystical viewpoint, some religious viewpoints, or the viewpoints of superstition or folk legends or beliefs about good and bad "luck". Did I leave anything out? ;-)

Am I clear now? I WAS aware that science questions and re-examines conventional views, and I was inclined to do that...but only THROUGH the approach of science, logic, observation, and rationality. ("science" meaning, the scientific methods...observation, experimentation, measurement, etc)

It was not surprising that I would have had that viewpoint. My father was an engineer and neither of my parents had any religious beliefs, in fact, they rather looked down on organized religion. ("mumbo jumbo", my Dad called it)

Like any child at a young age, I tended to believe whatever my parents believed. Later on, of course, I tended to question what they believed quite stringently.

I later moved into all kinds of other interests beyond my parents' viewpoints, including spirituality, but I don't belong to any religion. I'm interested in all of them (the religions), and I am still interested in science too, naturally. I mean, who wouldn't be, if they knew anything about it? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 10:44 PM

Fred Allen Wolf, Ph.D "Poppin the Quiff"...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5mPWmGhfJQ&feature=related
I reached a state of mind one time where I observed a horse's head that looked similar to what you would find in a chess set. The difference was it was constructed with only lines of white light determining it's features. What set it apart was that I was able to observe it from every direction AT THE SAME TIME. Something that lasted for perhaps a second, something I won't forget...A glimpse into the Quantum Field, or the mind entertaining me, who can say?
bob

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 09 Mar 08 - 10:58 PM

Alan Sokal's name has become a verb - a high internetz honour.

Just read the last page and a half of this thread. Think I'll go on over and see if there are any more birthday LolPZs linked at Pharyngula.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Slag
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 02:24 AM

Cynicism is easy. Criticism is easy. Sitting back and taking potshots is easy. Disbelief is also easy. In a world of distrust, cynicism and general negativity, God help the soul who ventures a theory or an original idea or a belief. That's fresh meat before the lions. An honest critique seeks to understand what is being proffered and then analyzes the same in light of reason or theology or form and substance or history and so forth. Cheap shots come from a attitude of general disbelief or suspicion or a smug attitude of superiority and certainly not from a heart of love and understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 09:00 AM

Faith, then, is hard?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 09:25 AM

Is faith hard, Mrzzy? Not necessarily. It depends on the condition of the heart. I had no trouble having total faith in my parents, my country, and the authoritative power of the world of science when I was 7 years old. Faith comes very easily to a heart that is open.

Faith is very hard for a heart that has grown cynical, fearful, reactive, defensive, and suspicious, as Slag suggested.

Most of us do become quite cynical and suspicious as time goes by...due to a series of shocks and disappointments we have suffered in life. We start expecting the worst. We develop many chips on our shoulders, and we being reacting to things around us in a hostile manner before any offence has even been given...as I see all the time on this forum.

I remember that when I first went off to school I thought that everyone in the world would always be kind and truthful. I thought that all people were good to one another. I thought that everyone had high ideals and noble virtues. Well, I was in for a surprise.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Bee
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 10:57 AM

"Faith is very hard for a heart that has grown cynical, fearful, reactive, defensive, and suspicious, as Slag suggested." Little Hawk

I see this opinion, or something like it, often, coming from people who are believers. In most cases, they don't seem to even understand that they are broadbrushing and insulting. It is as insulting to say I am cynical, reactive, defensive and suspicious as it would be for me to say you are gullible, naive, and unintelligent. I'm perfectly comfortable with saying I think someone's belief is hogwash or full of nonsense. I'm not prepared to say people (particularly people I like) are all those negative things - unless, of course, they are.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:08 AM

"Faith is very hard for a heart that has grown cynical, fearful, reactive, defensive, and suspicious, as Slag suggested." Little Hawk

How about curious, bold, inquiring, challenging?

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:36 AM

Anything you have faith in (God, the government, your parents, your partner, your children, the scientific community, your doctor, your lawyer, and yourself) can be damaged when a person becomes fearful, defensive, and reactive. That damage is the problem I was referring to. Faith does not only apply to religious beliefs, but to all forms of belief and trust in anyone or anything. The fact that some of you are taking what I said as a personal attack on you is the perfect demonstration of what I am talking about when I say that offence is often taken before it was ever intended.

I never met anyone yet without some chip on his shoulder. The chip on his shoulder was not put there by me, and I do not take responsibility for it, nor carry guilt for it, nor can I remove it. Only the one with the chip on his shoulder can remove it.

If he's willing to. If not, he goes on carrying it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'd like to believe that there is a God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Mar 08 - 11:41 AM

200!