BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Nov 22 - 02:35 PM

DtG:

I do not have mind reading capaility. Putin may e everything you say, but he is on record as saying (2005):

“First and foremost it is worth acknowledging that the demise of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century,” Putin said. “As for the Russian people, it became a genuine tragedy. Tens of millions of our fellow citizens and countrymen found themselves beyond the fringes of Russian territory.

“The epidemic of collapse has spilled over to Russia itself,” he said, referring to separatist movements such as those in Chechnya.

Putin’s statements were some of his strongest language to date about the Soviet collapse and come a month before the nation celebrates the 60th anniversary of the end of World War II in Europe, a conflict Russians call the “Great Patriotic War.”

Now, whether or nor Putin is expressing the loss of a unifying economic/ political doctrine which underlay the driving philosophy of Soviet Communism, or lamenting the loss of the power base of the hegemony held by the U.S.S.R. over Eastern Europe and world wide client states, his background as a Soviet citizen and apparatchick was entirely under this system and formed his internal model for his political world as a whole. The hypocrisy of his statements and actions is consistent with that model.

Meanwhile he is losing out on a proud set of World War 2 (Great Patriotic War) commemmoratives: The Battle of Stalingrad which is passing through the 80 year zone since the great Operation Uranus counterattack on 19 November 1942 under Zhukov and fast speeding toward the final entrapment and capture of Army Group South under Paulus on 2 February 1943. If Russia were not making their name a pariah right now they could be celebrating with former allies, or commemmorating iwth former foes as well. A pretty major propaganda loss and a potential time of healing between peoples as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 29 Nov 22 - 06:47 PM

Fresh Air, Terry Gross is interviewing Luke Harding of The Guardian, who has recently published: "Invasion" about Russia and Ukraine's current war.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 10:08 AM

That long night has now lasted a year.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Feb 23 - 11:31 AM

Putin expected to announce his new president of Ukraine tomorrow.
Instead Biden was in Ukraine today. Russain TV has a countdown clock on the Putin 'victory' speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Feb 23 - 07:20 AM

Putin spoke today for 90 minutes about America starting the Ukraine war along with Nazi Jews. No mention of Biden or that he is the only President to travel alone into a war zone this century.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Feb 23 - 06:32 PM

Yevgeny Prigozhin- How a caterer ingratiated himself with Putin

Currently playing today on Fresh Air

Today starts the second year of the war initiated by Russia's full invasion.

Russia and her minions have proven to be a nest of screw-ups, but that has not stopped their ability to inflict great destruction and ongoing pain on many Ukrainian civilians.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jul 23 - 11:14 AM

I recently read an article about how this popular writer got herself trained to report war crimes. Her death is one tragedy on top of another.

Ukrainian writer Victoria Amelina dies after being wounded in Kramatorsk strike

The award-winning Ukrainian novelist, essayist and war crimes researcher Victoria Amelina, who was wounded last week in a Russian missile strike on a restaurant, has died from her injuries.

Tributes to both Amelina’s activism and her writing poured in from across the worlds of literature and politics, after PEN Ukraine announced she had died in a hospital in Dnipro, surrounded by friends and family.

Amelina, 37, won the Joseph Conrad literary prize in 2021 for work’s including Dom’s Dream Kingdom and had been nominated for other major awards including the European Union Prize for Literature.

She largely set aside her writing after the full-scale Russian invasion of 2022, to focus on documenting war crimes and working with children on or near the frontline.

“Victoria Amelina was one of kindest and most charitable Ukrainian writers who did much more for others than for herself,” said the novelist Andrey Kurkov on Twitter. “She founded two literary festivals, in New York (Donbas) and in Kramatorsk, where her life was stopped by a Russian missile.”

Her work included unearthing the diary of Volodymyr Vakulenko, a fellow writer who was illegally detained and killed by Russian soldiers in the city of Izium in early 2022. The diary, which was buried in his garden, served as a real-time document of Russian atrocities.

Human rights groups say the attack that killed Amelina, on a popular restaurant crowded with civilians in eastern Kramatorsk, was also a war crime. Thirteen people died and more than 60 were injured.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 23 - 08:11 AM

The US supply of artillery ammunition has run out in Ukraine. However we have lots of outlawed cluster bombs, so out they come from 'safe' storage.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jul 23 - 07:16 PM

The news of the cluster munitions raised my hackles. I am wondering if the story of supplying these is part of the intense spin coming from all sides (no pun intended).

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Jul 23 - 08:54 PM

It is a surprise that these would come into play. At least we can be glad the last of the chemical weapons have been destroyed.

The justification that Ukraine gives for asking for them is that they know the place will be a mess of unexploded ordnance after the war, and they fully expect to clean up cluster bomb duds as well as all of the duds that the Russians have lobbed at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jul 23 - 07:07 PM

Who is the one defending cluster bombs?
Unimaginable trades are made in war.
20,000 Sophie choices is a hell of a trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Jul 23 - 07:24 PM

I didn't defend them. I stated UKRAINE'S argument for them. You certainly can take any statement and read it wrong and then make pronouncements about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 23 - 08:12 PM

I'm not accusing anyone here of defending them. But a study of the baleful history of the harm done to people who had never involved themselves in conflicts - civilians, women, children if you like - should at least persuade you to condemn them out of hand. We did that when Israel was using white phosphorus in Gaza, didn't we? If warfare expediently involves the use of weapons that can't help but target civilians, and target them for many decades to come, then we should condemn that use out of hand, not be discussing whether it might give one side or the other the advantage. Failure to condemn cluster bombs (not "munitions", not "ordnance") should cause us to question our own sanity.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jul 23 - 11:08 PM

A cause embraced by Lady Di was the landmine issue.
https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/tradition/a12021518/princess-diana-landmines/

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Jul 23 - 01:45 AM

Fine. Don't offer Ukraine the stuff they're asking for and watch Putin overrun the country.

Your call.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jul 23 - 05:58 AM

And you're sure that your black-and-white binary choice is the key to either winning or losing? Wars don't generally work that way, do they? Putin is already using cluster bombs. Ukrainians adopting them would be a serious escalation. Putin has the ability to escalate in plenty of other ways. You think that escalation wins wars? Well we could always use nukes...

Weapons that can put civilians in harm's way for decades after the war ends are simply immoral and should not be used. Why do you think we want to rid ourselves of chemical and biological weapons?

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Jul 23 - 06:30 AM

MaJoC's €0.02 on clusterbombs:

Stilly correctly identifies the awful calculus of war: it's the Ukrainians who will have to live with the consequences. At least the US said ahead of time what they were about to do, rather than it being found out years or decades later.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Charmion
Date: 11 Jul 23 - 08:07 AM

The toad beneath the harrow knows
Exactly where each toothpoint goes.
The butterfly upon the road
Preaches contentment to that toad.

Sitting here in safe, comfortable Canada, I do not feel qualified to judge any decision the Ukrainian government might make at this time. They are doing their utmost in a terrible situation, and if anyone understands the long-term legacy of total war it’s the Ukrainian people.

---

Ugly bickering has been deleted. Let's let Charmion have the last word and call it a day. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jul 23 - 01:04 PM

The Wagner group has moved into Belarus and are "now acting as military instructors for the country's territorial defence forces."

Wagner mercenaries have arrived in Belarus, Ukraine confirms

Meanwhile, it's about time to renegotiate or extend the Black Sea grain deal (brokered by the UN, and largely administered by Turkey).

The Ukraine grain deal is about to expire — here’s what it means for supply chains

The United Nations-brokered Black Sea Grain Initiative that has allowed Ukraine to safely export 32 million metric tons of food is set to expire on July 18, and serious doubts have been raised as to whether Russia will allow it to continue.

The deal, to date, has facilitated the export of enough food to feed nearly 150 million people for a year, and its expiration would likely exacerbate an already severe global food crisis. While the international community should continue to exert pressure on Russia to extend the agreement, it should also use this as an opportunity to reinvigorate efforts to increase the resilience of food supply chains.

Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 triggered a global food security crisis. Ukraine had historically been one of the world’s largest grain exporters, but the country’s grain production and exports plummeted following the Russian invasion. This contributed to a spike in global food prices and heightened levels of food insecurity in much of the world.

The UN-brokered grain deal — agreed to by Turkey, Russia, Ukraine and the UN in July 2022 — was an important step in addressing the crisis. The deal sought to mitigate the war’s impact on global food security by establishing a maritime humanitarian corridor as well as a registration and inspection scheme to facilitate the export of grain, related foodstuffs and fertilizers from three key Ukrainian ports. Despite the global humanitarian impact, Russia has declared in recent weeks that there are “no grounds” to extend the agreement past July 18.

In the Tit-for-Tat of war, Putin says Russia also has cluster bombs and will deploy them if Ukraine does. Some sources say Russia has already used them. Putin says Russia has ‘sufficient’ cluster munitions and may retaliate if Ukraine uses them

Landmines remain the biggest hurdle to moving forward for Ukraine in the summer Counteroffensive: Small, Hidden and Deadly: Mines Stymie Ukraine’s Counteroffensive
To gain ground, Ukrainian forces have to make their way through a variety and density of Russian land mines they never imagined.

It was a grisly scene of bloody limbs and crumpled vehicles as a series of Russian mines exploded across a field in southern Ukraine.

One Ukrainian soldier stepped on a mine and tumbled onto the grass in the buffer zone between the two armies. Nearby lay other Ukrainian troops, their legs in tourniquets, waiting for medical evacuation, according to videos posted online and the accounts of several soldiers involved.

Soon, an armored vehicle arrived to rescue them. A medic jumped out to treat the wounded and knelt on ground he deemed safe — only to trigger another mine with his knee.

Five weeks into a counteroffensive that even Ukrainian officials say is off to a halting start, interviews with commanders and soldiers fighting along the front indicate the slow progress comes down to one major problem: land mines.

The nasty stuff is there, but this thread does not need side trips into stuff that just starts arguments on threads. One war at a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Jul 23 - 02:27 AM

Vital bridge linking Crimea with Russia damaged, Russian Transport Ministry says.

Again - I thought it was hit pretty hard the last time. It seems to have been back up and running quickly until just now.

Sergey Aksenov, the Russia-appointed head of Crimea, said an “emergency incident” had been reported, halting traffic on the bridge, which serves as a vital logistical node for Moscow’s military in its war against Ukraine.

Two strikes were allegedly carried out on the bridge around 3 a.m. local time, damaging part of the bridge, according to the Telegram channel Grey Zone, which supports the Wagner mercenary group led by Yevgeny Prigozhin.

Explosions were heard around 3:04 a.m. and 3:20 a.m. local time, Grey Zone and popular Crimean blogger ‘TalipoV Online Z’ said on Telegram. . . . The nearly 12-mile bridge, also known as the Kerch Bridge, is the longest in Europe and carries both road and rail traffic.

The bridge was severely damaged on October 8 when a fuel tanker exploded and destroyed a large section of the road.

"After the October 8 blast, Russia quickly set about repairs to the span. It was fully reopened to traffic in February. Earlier this month, Ukraine’s Deputy Defense Minister Hanna Maliar made what appeared to be the clearest admission yet that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the October attack."

This is a developing story, more to follow.

A truck exploded and then train cars exploded. And Russia is surprised? Really?

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Jul 23 - 10:13 AM

Linking to headlines is a fine thing but insight and opinion into the Ukraine war providing the opportunity to test AI warfare should not be censored. It is already a full scale drone war. We could see remote human control become fully autonomous killing, put a pin in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jul 23 - 11:16 AM

There is never a shortage of opinions.
There is a lack of insight.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jul 23 - 01:01 PM

This link goes to a page that updates so you may have to scroll down to the headline Russia’s accusation after the bridge attack renews attention on sea drones.

Russia Fires Drones and Missiles at Southern Ukraine

Depending on how they are operated, the boats, also called marine drones or unmanned surface vessels, can be hard to detect. They can carry enough fuel to travel far and enough explosives to detonate with power.

And while they might cost in the low hundreds of thousands of dollars, they can do millions of dollars in damage, embarrassing the Kremlin and, as evidenced by the harsh comments of pro-Russian military bloggers after Monday’s attack, drawing further criticism of a military leadership roiled by last month’s mercenary uprising.

“The problem for the Russians is that there’s no sure way to defend itself against these boats,” said Sam Bendett, an expert in drones and Russia’s military at CNA, a research institute in Virginia. . . .If two waterborne drones did detonate explosives at the Kerch Strait Bridge, Mr. Bendett said, they would probably have been at least 15 feet long and packed with hundreds of pounds of explosives, along with the fuel, probably diesel or gasoline, for the voyage.

The vessels would probably have been launched from land, Mr. Bendett said, and guided by satellite, perhaps via the Starlink system that is widely used for internet access in Ukraine. He said they would have traveled across the Black Sea at a speed slow enough to minimize their wake and foil radar detection.

No video of the actual event, just views from vehicles on the bridge deck or perhaps highway cameras.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 09:19 PM

Zelensky, at NATO headquarters, denounces Putin and Hamas as terrorists

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky made a surprise appearance at NATO headquarters on Wednesday, claiming the world stage at a moment when a new war is dominating headlines and comparing Russian President Vladimir Putin to Hamas terrorists.

Though he has addressed the alliance remotely from Kyiv before, it was his first visit to NATO’s steel-and-glass headquarters since Putin’s invasion, and it came a day after he acknowledged in an interview that the new war in Israel could distract global attention from Russia’s war against Ukraine. While foreign military support continues to flow, Ukrainian officials and NATO allies have raised concern about Republican lawmakers in Washington seeking to stifle additional aid packages.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 02:02 PM

Thanks for re-opening this thread. With the fresh Middle East horribleness and the prospect of another Winter of war in Ukraine right now I've got "Green Fields of France" looping in my brain for the time being: "For Willie McBride it all happened again, and again and again and again and again."
Another thread had a brief but notable point: "We do not lack for opinions. We lack for insight." Personally I've had my fill of insight, also.
Errant thought: Maybe AI has come along at just the right time to take over, a la Day the Earth Stood Still.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 12:09 PM

> Errant thought: Maybe AI has come along at just the right time to take
> over, a la Day the Earth Stood Still.

I'll see you that, and raise you Colossus: The Forbin Project. And that's when the machine notices the human; somewhere in the last day or so I've read of a woman being the victim of a hit-and-run, after which a driver-free taxi parked itself on top of her. But that methinks is a rant for another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 12:22 PM

I recently got a copy of Colossus: The Forbin Project. It is a little sleeper, not as big as Parallax View but along the same lines of a machine (or political/oligarch machine) in charge.

The lines are much clearer in the Ukrainian struggle against invasion by Russia, and Putin could never be mistaken as the representative of a maligned population striking out.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 02:56 PM

I recently re-watched Day the Earth Stood Still and found it has held up very well. Can't emphasize that the 50s version* is the one to watch not the utterly vapid remake about ten years ago.

I had been trying to remember "Colossus, the Forbin Project." which I saw a couple generations ago, that's how old it was (1970). My memories of it aren't so clear, but I'd also like to mention an episode called "Human Operators" which was done in 1999 as part of the reboot of Outer Limits.

*While the movie was 'based' on a short story from the 30s-40s called "Return of the Master", it was one of the few movies to go well beyond its source material. I think it's damn near as perfect a movie as has ever been made, similar in its progressivism as one of my non-SF favorites, "Inherit the Wind."

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 04:27 PM

The only thing worse than the remake of TDTESS is the remake of War of the Worlds.

Well, maybe not the *only* thing, but you get the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 05:22 PM

There have been so many versions of TWOTW even recently that you got to be more specifimic. If you're talking about the Spielberg 2005 version scripted by Koepp and Friedman, I am way ahead of you. The young Dakota Fanning probably damaged her voicebox she did so much screaming. I have a soft spot for most of the other versions.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 06:36 PM

Yeah, robo, that's the one.

I dunno about any others except the good one with Gene Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Oct 23 - 02:59 PM

I thought Gene Barry version was pretty good, partly because it was also so very 50s.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Oct 23 - 02:02 PM

Thanks for re-opening this thread. With the fresh Middle East horribleness and the prospect of another Winter of war in Ukraine right now I've got "Green Fields of France" looping in my brain for the time being: "For Willie McBride it all happened again, and again and again and again and again."
Another thread had a brief but notable point: "We do not lack for opinions. We lack for insight." Personally I've had my fill of insight, also.
Errant thought: Maybe AI has come along at just the right time to take over, a la Day the Earth Stood Still.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Oct 23 - 09:19 PM

Zelensky, at NATO headquarters, denounces Putin and Hamas as terrorists

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky made a surprise appearance at NATO headquarters on Wednesday, claiming the world stage at a moment when a new war is dominating headlines and comparing Russian President Vladimir Putin to Hamas terrorists.

Though he has addressed the alliance remotely from Kyiv before, it was his first visit to NATO’s steel-and-glass headquarters since Putin’s invasion, and it came a day after he acknowledged in an interview that the new war in Israel could distract global attention from Russia’s war against Ukraine. While foreign military support continues to flow, Ukrainian officials and NATO allies have raised concern about Republican lawmakers in Washington seeking to stifle additional aid packages.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 02:56 PM

I recently re-watched Day the Earth Stood Still and found it has held up very well. Can't emphasize that the 50s version* is the one to watch not the utterly vapid remake about ten years ago.

I had been trying to remember "Colossus, the Forbin Project." which I saw a couple generations ago, that's how old it was (1970). My memories of it aren't so clear, but I'd also like to mention an episode called "Human Operators" which was done in 1999 as part of the reboot of Outer Limits.

*While the movie was 'based' on a short story from the 30s-40s called "Return of the Master", it was one of the few movies to go well beyond its source material. I think it's damn near as perfect a movie as has ever been made, similar in its progressivism as one of my non-SF favorites, "Inherit the Wind."

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 05:22 PM

There have been so many versions of TWOTW even recently that you got to be more specifimic. If you're talking about the Spielberg 2005 version scripted by Koepp and Friedman, I am way ahead of you. The young Dakota Fanning probably damaged her voicebox she did so much screaming. I have a soft spot for most of the other versions.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Oct 23 - 02:59 PM

I thought Gene Barry version was pretty good, partly because it was also so very 50s.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 12:22 PM

I recently got a copy of Colossus: The Forbin Project. It is a little sleeper, not as big as Parallax View but along the same lines of a machine (or political/oligarch machine) in charge.

The lines are much clearer in the Ukrainian struggle against invasion by Russia, and Putin could never be mistaken as the representative of a maligned population striking out.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 04:27 PM

The only thing worse than the remake of TDTESS is the remake of War of the Worlds.

Well, maybe not the *only* thing, but you get the idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Lighter
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 06:36 PM

Yeah, robo, that's the one.

I dunno about any others except the good one with Gene Barry.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 24 Oct 23 - 12:09 PM

> Errant thought: Maybe AI has come along at just the right time to take
> over, a la Day the Earth Stood Still.

I'll see you that, and raise you Colossus: The Forbin Project. And that's when the machine notices the human; somewhere in the last day or so I've read of a woman being the victim of a hit-and-run, after which a driver-free taxi parked itself on top of her. But that methinks is a rant for another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Dec 24 - 12:14 PM

There is a documentary out this month called Meme Wars. Folk humor strikes back set in Ukraine about the Russian invasion and forward.

Meme Wars. Early on in the film the woman being interviewed describes "memes as antibodies" - a defense mechanism.

From the YouTube site commentary:

In the modern world, memes are not just entertainment. They can define our reality. And Ukrainian memes of a full-scale invasion are a unique phenomenon. Even researchers from Stanford University are studying it.

The documentary's creators talked to the authors of the most famous memes and found out how they had the courage to make jokes during the darkest times. A Ukrainian diplomat tells how he used memes to get weapons for Ukraine. The founder of the most massive Ukrainian Twitter meme community revealed how memes strike not only on the information frontline, but also on the real battlefield. Film creators with Ukrainian and worldwide leading researchers has redefined the role of memes in the Ukrainian resistance in the most dramatic war of the XXI century.

I haven't seen the whole thing yet, but it looks interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Dec 24 - 07:52 PM

I was thinking of starting a thread separating 'end times' movies from politics but well, here we are.

I DID see Colossus, the Forbin Project. Always had a soft spot for it because I seem to remember OUR conputer and THEIR computer taking over. On that theme there are some nice variations such as the more recent (but not the MOST recent) Outer Limits vision of computer operated ships in space using humans as slaves (HUMAN OPERATORS S05E07)

But the reason I almost started a new thread was the appearance of latter day movies and shows such as:
Leave The World Behind with Julia Roberts
Fallout (the series) that I just started, and probably needs its own discussion space if anyone wants to go there.

Getting back to Ukraine, at this point I want to commemorate a lovely Ukrainian friend of mine, who mentored me in Winter Camping, and who I found out way too late had passed away before I could catch up with her and get some education on the cultures of Eastern Europe about which she had a dense knowledge base.


Canada has long had a large and notable Ukrainian population with a large cultural presence. I got to meet some of them many years ago at an amazing yearly get together of American Russians and Ukrainians celebrating their interwoven musical cultures (The organization was and I hope IS known as the BDAA. Maybe there are Mudcatters familiar). There is a famous 'giant egg' sculpture in Vegreville Egg Alberta.

Forgive me for running a bit amok.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 10 Dec 24 - 08:46 PM

robomatic, I'm sorry about your friend.

Odd as it might seem, comparing the Ukraine situation to various science fiction dystopian stories (written and on film) seems to fit.

Years ago my kids and I did movie nights with films that were interesting and/or important. I had them sit through 2001: A Space Odyssey and my son was just writhing and "mom, what is this about?" as the living room scene goes by. But as it concluded they paid attention. Later when he was at the university he asked me to send him my copy because he wanted to use it for a writing project (and didn't want to sit in the university library to watch the copy they had available). Anyway, right now Zelenskyy is asking Hal to open the pod bay doors.

BTW: I didn't realize the Colossus novel, cum film, was the first in a trilogy (see the link above to the Wikipedia entry for the novel and follow the link to the author). I'll have to look into those.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Dec 24 - 01:06 PM

Just re-watched 'Colossus, the Forbin Project'. Enjoyed the historical difference between the movie of 1971 and the political/ social adjustments that have occurred since. There was way more freedom of speech back in the 70s, for better and for worse. There is a lot of stuff that was predictive in the movie, but it's not unique to the movie. Many people were predicting the kinds of dangers we're facing, One thing that was not in the movi was the concept of computer viruses and worms. I distinctly remember the early signs of that from the early 80s. An English computer kid told me about 'rabbits and foxes', programs that existed only to multiply themselves, and other programs that would find and neutralize them.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Dec 24 - 03:56 PM

I've only read the first of the Colossus novels, and though I can't remember what now, they are somewhat different, but both effective. I'll have to see if I can find the others. Who knows, maybe there will be interest in following up in modern dramas (or perhaps a game maker will go with the premise of any or all of these stories.)

Watching places like Ukraine right now as the Doomsday Clock ticks closer to midnight - having fools like Trump and Putin with a finger on the button, who knows what could happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 24 - 09:31 PM

Like space-time, Trump-Musk is now a combined unison.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 24 - 04:07 AM

???

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Dec 24 - 11:21 AM

Joined at the hip, I suspect he means. Until Trump tires of not being the richest man in the world and boots Musk from the team.

Musk's family business office manager is doing the interviews for hiring high-level people at the State Department. That person has no qualifications for doing the interviews. And Musk's mother (a former fashion model as her skill set) is sitting in on some of Musk's meetings with Trump and whoever else he isn't qualified to meet.

The Department of State would normally be doing diplomatic stuff in the future. You may remember that a lot of them were interviewed during the first Trump impeachment hearing when Trump was charged with trying to get Ukraine's then brand-new president Zelenskyy to make up stuff about Joe Biden. Go full circle, the FBI "informant" Smirnov (who lied about all that Burisma stuff) this week admitted that he lied in that case and will get time served. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/16/alexander-smirnov-pleads-guilty-joe-hunter-biden

In real news, Ukraine admits to having assassinated the Russian general who is responsible for the war crimes of using chemical weapons on combatants in Ukraine. Ukraine Says It Killed General Who Led Russia’s Nuclear Defense Force
A Ukrainian official said Kyiv was responsible for the assassination in Moscow of Gen. Igor Kirillov, the chief of Russia’s radioactive, chemical and biological defense forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Long Night in Ukraine - Feb. 23, 2022
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 24 - 06:38 AM

Musk will be the next POTUS, after tRump finishes his term or, preferably, pegs out whilst he’s in office (and, hopefully, sooner rather than later).