BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 11:49 AM

Damn! I was otherwise engaged on another thread! Pistols at dawn I fancy eh Little Hawk?

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 02:14 PM

Your comeuppance has been too long in coming, super Ted. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 26 Nov 04 - 03:03 PM

GUEST:

I don't understand what the other guy is trying to say. Hell, you're correct on the asbestos thing. What Canada is doing is bad. Did someone give you the impression that Canada doesn't do bad things? Take us to task for that and you'll have my support. Insult my country for no good reason and I will suggest you kiss my arse. Please allow me to suggest that. Get rude with me it gets returned.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:40 PM

U.N. deserted leads in oil-for-food investigation

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:46 PM

Good article.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 09:51 PM

Here's another good article from the San Jose Mrecury News, Nov. 27, 2004

        Posted on Sat, Nov. 27, 2004

Halliburton dealt new setback in Iraq probes

A third or more of the government property Halliburton was paid to manage for the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq could not be located by auditors, investigative reports to Congress show.

Halliburton's KBR subsidiary ``did not effectively manage government property'' and auditors could not locate hundreds of CPA items worth millions of dollars in Iraq and Kuwait this summer and fall, Inspector General Stuart W. Bowen reported to Congress in two reports.

Bowen's findings mark the latest bad news for Vice President Dick Cheney's former company, which is the focus of both a criminal investigation into alleged fuel price gouging and an FBI inquiry into possible favoritism from the Bush administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: dianavan
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:32 PM

I saw that article, brucie, and couldn't help but wonder ...

How do you manage government property without keeping an accurate inventory?

Ohhhh...maybe thats how government property ends up on the black market and/or in the hands of terrorists or insurgents. If its needed to continue waging war and making profits, I guess you just call it business as usual. Maybe thats what Bush refers to as political capital.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:50 PM

I don't think anybody is in love with Halliburton. It seems that they are the only company that can handle certain things.

The Clinton administration awarded them no bid contracts but that was OK. Al Gore said they were great.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 28 Nov 04 - 11:54 PM

I disagree. It was definitely NOT OK, regardless of who gave them the contracts.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:27 AM

Brucie:

So what company do you reccomend?

   M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:33 AM

Cheney is an arrogant asshole.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 12:34 AM

Well, since it's supposed to be about the re-creation of infrastructure in a new and democratic Iraq, how's about some Iraqi companies? Maybe with some advice from the international community. I mean, don't you think that getting Halliburton--a company of which the Vice President of the United States of America was the CEO--is just a bit much?

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: dianavan
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 03:17 AM

As if there are no engineers or architects or builders in Iraq.

Who knows, maybe there are no men left, only insurgents who have fled.

Seems that anyone over the age of 14 was considered the enemy. Lota dead bodies in Falluja. Who's goint to re-build that?

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:13 PM

Iraqi contractors are expressing frustration following their initiation into the mysteries of government contracting, American-style. Contract opportunities under the $18.6-billion supplemental budget for Iraqi reconstruction are a powerful lure, but the bidding process and contract requirements of the Coalition Provisional Authority's Project Management Office look daunting to many...

"We want to do everything we can to encourage Iraqi companies to take part in the reconstruction of their country," says Michael Fleischer, deputy director of the Private Sector Development Team.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 06:58 PM

yeh.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:02 PM

Saddam Hussein's regime poisoned everything it touched - including the United Nations, writes Tony Parkinson.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:11 PM

In his testimony, Mr. Greenblatt listed as oil-voucher recipients Benon Sevan, who headed the U.N. office overseeing the oil-for-food program; a Russian politician, Vladimir Zhirinovsky; a former French interior minister, Charles Pasqua; a British Labour parliamentarian, George Galloway, and a Syrian journalist, Hamidah Na'na.

Mr. Zhirinovsky and Mr. Galloway were vociferous advocates for the lifting of U.N. sanctions. Investigators said the Iraqi government allocated 80 million barrels of oil to Mr. Zhirinovsky, and they released a copy of a letter written by the Russian inviting an international oil company to Moscow to negotiate to buy oil allocated to him.

The Russian, along with other foreign politicians named in recent weeks as oil voucher recipients, denied any wrongdoing. Last month, Mr. Annan said he didn't believe the Security Council had been influenced or bought in any way by the ousted Iraqi dictator.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 29 Nov 04 - 07:46 PM

Kofi Annan's son received payments from firm with an oil-for-food contract


M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 01:29 AM

Full circle!

Kofi Annan's SON is the asshole.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 10:40 AM

Did Kofi Annan influnce the UN to give the contract to his son's firm?

True, he approved some scrutiny. All Oil-for-Food shipments into Iraq had to be inspected - initially by Lloyd's Register of London, but in 1998 they were let go and replaced by a Swiss company, who had on the payroll a consultant by the name of Kojo Annan, son of Kofi. Hmm.

Maybe we should ask Hallibuton. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 10:14 PM

The Oil-for-Food Scandal
The program was corrupt. The U.N. owes the Iraqis--and Congress--an explanation.

"If there is evidence, we would investigate it very seriously," Kofi Annan insisted last month when presented with allegations that U.N. officials knew about and may have benefited from Saddam Hussein's corruption of the U.N.'s Oil-for-Food Program. Fortunately, Saddam appears to have been a stickler for record-keeping.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:33 PM

By Charles Lane
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, October 8, 2004; Page A30

"CIA analyst Charles A. Duelfer's report on Iraq's weapons programs included lists of governments, political parties, companies and individuals from at least 44 nations who received vouchers to buy oil -- both legally and otherwise -- from the Iraqi government during Saddam Hussein's reign.

The names on the politically explosive list are French, Russian, Chinese, Canadian and Japanese; if Duelfer had had his way, U.S. companies and individuals would have been included, too.

But he was overruled by CIA lawyers. The report instead lists some voucher recipients only as "U.S. person" and "U.S. company," explaining in a footnote that disclosure was barred by the 1974 Privacy Act and "other applicable law."

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:56 PM

You will find the complete list here

The Us recipients were:

United States:
Samir Vincent received 10.5 million barrels. In 2000, Vincent, an Iraqi-born American citizen who has lived in the U.S. since 1958, organized a delegation of Iraqi religious leaders to visit the
U.S. and meet with former president Jimmy Carter.
Shaker Al-Khafaji,the pro-Saddam chairman of the 17th conference of Iraqi expatriates, received 1 million barrels.


M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 12:26 AM

Must be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 09:14 AM

November 28, 2004
Tinesonline.uk
The wages of greed
Robert Winnett and Stephen Grey reveal how the UN betrayed the poor of Iraq in what is being called the greatest financial scandal ever:

"People called him Mr Cash.

He represented an oil trader based in Switzerland. His job was to make Saddam's favoured visitors rich. In his case were tightly wrapped wads of $100 bills....

...In 1998, on the recommendation of Kofi Annan, the UN secretary-general, the security council voted to expand the programme to pay for bridges, power plants and water systems. Huge amounts of almost unchecked money began flowing into Iraq. Yet the population did not benefit. A recent medical survey found Iraqis suffering a high rate of colon cancer, blamed on the poor quality of the wheat imported under oil for food.

By 2000 Iraq was free to sell as much oil as it wished through the programme. Corruption went into overdrive as Saddam began insisting on a kickback from every barrel of oil he allocated. A letter written on August 3, 2000 by Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan, marked "urgent and confidential", informed fellow ministers that a high command committee wanted "extra revenues" from the programme.

Anyone wanting to purchase Iraqi oil had to pay between 10 cents and 50 cents a barrel into illicit bank accounts. According to Iraqi oil ministry documents, Saddam's embassies in Moscow, Athens, Rome, Vienna and Geneva also began accepting cash bungs for oil."

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 09:36 AM

Crooks & Liars. SADDAM'S U.N. SLUSH FUND
Part of an article in the NY Post by Susan Sachs:

Sachs writes of the Rashid Hotel lobby, "where the oil traders would gather whenever a journalist, actor or political figure would arrive in Iraq and openly praise Mr. Hussein. [emphasis added]

"Experience taught them that the visitor usually returned to the hotel with a gift voucher, courtesy of the Iraqi president or one of his aides, representing the right to buy one million barrels or more of Iraqi crude."

At last, some light on so many foreign visitors' otherwise inexplicable enthusiasm for the brutal regime.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 01:02 PM

At last, some light on so many foreign visitors' otherwise inexplicable enthusiasm for the brutal regime.

You mean like this foreign visitor?

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:02 PM

ABC News Dec. 1, 2004

Former American fugitive Marc Rich was a middleman for several of Iraq's suspect oil deals in February 2001, just one month after his pardon from President Clinton, according to oil industry shipping records obtained by ABC News.

And a U.S. criminal investigation is looking into whether Rich, as well as several other prominent oil traders, made illegal payments to Iraq in order to obtain the lucrative oil contracts.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:12 PM

The above--various links provided mostly by GUEST, (Vyacheslav Mikhailovich) Molotov indicate that there was corruption involved with the oil/food program. That's always been a given to me. Anytime that lots of money changes hands, some gets scooped in finders' fees, gifts, expense accounts, etc. That siad, what point is this thread trying to make? (I mean no offence with that question. When I mean to be offensive I speak very differently, and I reserve that for people whom I hate with a passion.)

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:26 PM

Brucie: See Molotov Date: 24 Nov 04 - 06:23 PM

Kojo & Kofi
Unbelievable U.N. stories

"These do not suggest a U.N. that was living in ignorance of Saddam's 10-percent-overpricing-and-kickback scheme.

For instance, in the U.N.'s own footnotes, there is reference to the welding-machine contractor from Lebanon, "unwilling to accept the 10% deduction"; likewise the Belgian and Jordanian suppliers of medicine, both refusing a "10% reduction." In other cases there is a vaguer note, such as the Russian backhoe supplier, who "refused to accept extra fee deduction." Or the supplier of "fork lift and spares" from Belarus who "stated that the supply of remaining parts cannot be cost effective under the current circumstances." Asked to further explain these notations, an Oil-for-Food spokesman offers no comment except that all available information is already posted on the U.N. website."

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:47 PM

The first hint of something rotten with the UN came to me when the present war was approaching. It seemed almost like the UN was glad that there was going to be a mess in Iraq, and their recurrent "give us more time despite the fact we're finding nothing in the way of WMDs" seemed to ring hollow with me.

However, that said, we're left with the question, "What to do next?"

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:48 PM

"But the one company that helped Saddam exploit the oil-for-food program in the mid-1990s that wasn't identified in Duelfer's report was Halliburton, and the person at the helm of Halliburton at the time of the scheme was Dick Cheney. Halliburton and its subsidiaries were one of several American and foreign oil supply companies that helped Iraq increase its crude exports from $4 billion in 1997 to nearly $18 billion in 2000 by skirting U.S. laws and selling Iraq spare parts so it could repair its oil fields and pump more oil. Since the oil-for-food program began, Iraq has sold $40 billion worth of oil. U.S. and European officials have long argued that the increase in Iraq's oil production also expanded Saddam's ability to use some of that money for weapons, luxury goods and palaces. Security Council diplomats estimate that Iraq was skimming off as much as 10 percent of the proceeds from the oil-for-food program thanks to companies like Halliburton and former executives such as Cheney.

UN documents show that Halliburton's affiliates have had controversial dealings with the Iraqi regime during Cheney's tenure at the company and played a part in helping Saddam Hussein illegally pocket billions of dollars under the UN's oil-for-food program. The Clinton administration blocked one deal Halliburton was trying to push through because it was "not authorized under the oil-for-food deal," according to UN documents. That deal, between Halliburton subsidiary Ingersoll Dresser Pump Co. and Iraq, included agreements by the firm to sell nearly $1 million in spare parts, compressors and firefighting equipment to refurbish an offshore oil terminal, Khor al-Amaya. Still, Halliburton used one of its foreign subsidiaries to sell Iraq the equipment it needed so the country could pump more oil, according to a report in the Washington Post in June 2001."

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/leopold.php?articleid=3767

No wonder they're gunning so hard for Annan. They're trying to divert attention away from Cheney's and Halliburton's complicity in the corruption of the Oil for Food program.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Boab
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:36 AM

brucie---I honestly can't follow your reasoning re. the UN's "give us more time----". I think "more time" might have convinced Bush-Cheyney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz that they simply couldn't get away with the 'WMD" reason for attacking Iraq. They simply HAD to get Toady Blair on board and get it going before they were bereft of any excuse that gullible multitudes might swallow. The cry of "the UN risks becoming irrelevant" which was trumpeted so often was made to come true---as far as the aggressor nations were concerned.
I do agree with your closing remark, however. If the January "democratic elections" are seen to be one more farce [and I WOULD like to see truly democratic elections in Iraq]then, indeed they will be left with the ongoing "what to do next".

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:52 AM

I don't know specifically that it is reasoning on my part. The Iraq War was coming, and there was zip the UN could do about it. BUT, the UN also put up with lots of bull from the Hussein crew. Being stalled on inspections, not be allowed to go where they wanted WHEN they wanted. That had been going on for years. Why? You have the authority to inspect, inspect. They seemed to be frustrated, and yet they were reluctant to leave. Something just did not 'feel' right. Maybe it was a bit difficult to leave all that flowing cash behind. Hell, everyone except the Iraqi people have been making bucks off this war, as is usual. But tell me what has changed? The Iraqis have new masters who are killing as many of them as their old master. And the UN is out of the picture and saying little of substance.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:58 AM

I agree with Carol when she says, "No wonder they're gunning so hard for Annan. They're trying to divert attention away from Cheney's and Halliburton's complicity in the corruption of the Oil for Food program."

Hey, in what world do you not receive a 'handling' fee. 10 cents a barrel? I mean, gimme a break. Seems like very small potatoes compared to the profit Halliburton must have made.

Thats right hmmmmm.....why don't you go ask Halliburton?

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 02:00 AM

Maybe it's like the Annan stuff placed a piece of the puzzle on the table. Maybe that's why there were no WMDs found in Iraq. Someone playing footsies with the Hussein gang and slowing down the process. I don't know. I supported the war at first, but now the whole damned thing stinks of money, corruption, evil. That includes Bush and the gang, Hussein and the gang, and the UN and the gang. Diogenes would have a helluva time there right now, IMO.

However, it's likely just more paranoid ravings from a guy in the wilderness. You might be right, Boab. I hope you are, but I fear you're not.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 03:39 PM

Molotov, seems like you've had too many cocktails.

Kofi Annan is innocent of all charges. He warned the Security Council through the other UN agencies that this would be a problem. They didn't listen.

Your sources are the Pittsburgh Trib. Isn't that owned by Richard Mellon Scaife?

And the New York Post? Why not quote the National Inquirer? It has more credibility.

And the Heritage Foundation? Give me a break!

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:48 PM

George Galloway was to-day awarded £150.000 against the right wing newspaper The Daily Telegraph, another right wing lying rag has to pay up to one of the few brave anti-war Labourites, fair play to you George, thats the second right wing rag you have proved liars.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:49 PM

Kofi Annan's great, great, great grandfather's brother's 3rd cousin killed and ATE one of my ancestors back in the old country! It's a well known fact. For this reason I would not trust the man no farther than I can spit.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:50 PM

YAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.

Will he lose it on appeal?

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 04:59 PM

What are you talkin' about? He ain't even on trial for it! Statute of limitations. Anyway, it was his great, great, great grandfather's brother's 3rd cousin that did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 05:07 PM

George Bush has arrived.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 01:09 AM

Rights group slams proposed UN reforms as cowardly
02 Dec 2004 17:10:45 GMT
Source: Reuters

"We fear that's going to make things worse, not better," said Ken Roth, Executive Director of the New York-based group. He urged U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan to reject the proposals as a "cowardly remedy".

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Boab
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 05:02 AM

Could we all please note that the members of the 'coalition" which invaded Iraq without the backing of the United Nations constitute a n appreciable percentage of the veto-wielding members of that organisation? Like the old League of Nations, the UN is being quite deliberately undermined by its most powerful members who see their self-interest and nothing more. They should come to their senses. If the world's most powerful nations cannot, in the end, work in harmony, the result is illustrated down thro' history; global conflict.
It is almost inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Molotov
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 11:58 PM

The basic question is did the members who were benefiting from the oil for food scandal support Saddam Hussein and oppose the invasion?

I believe so and if so, Kofi Annan, who was overseeing the oil for food program, was negligent and possibly benefiting himself.

In light of the fact of the massacres in Bosnia, Rwanda and the current one in Sudan, he is totally derelict in his duty.

This renders the whole of the UN corrupt, ineffective and irrelevant. I don't think the UN can be fixed. The UN needs to be replaced and the US needs to quit pumping money into the UN because it is only benefiting the enemies of democracy.

The Scottsman
Sat 20 Nov 2004
UN must reform if it is to fulfil its purpose after past failures
THE United Nations was founded in 1945 to "save succeeding generations from the scourge of war". It has failed. Recognising that fact is the precursor to putting it right. To take only the most recent example, in Darfur, in western Sudan, some 300,000 people have died over the last 20 months as a result of genocide and mass starvation at the hands of the Khartoum regime. The UN has proved powerless to stop this massacre.

The organisation's track record over the past decade has been equally lamentable. It failed to make Saddam Hussein obey repeated Security Council resolutions, yet refused Britain and the United States formal permission to bring Saddam to heel. It did not act over the genocidal conflict in Bosnia, which was only ended with unilateral action by NATO. And UN troops stood by helplessly while 800,000 Hutus were massacred in Rwanda.

What can be done to make the UN more effective? Or should it be scrapped? These questions are being debated inside the UN.

M

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:27 AM

Canada could oppose a resolution which condemns Israel and merely calls suicide bombers a "concern" thereby achieving a better balance in the U.N. and assuming a more active role in post-Palestine Arafat.

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Boab
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 04:05 AM

Molotov---you're 'way offbeam again. the US never has been noted for"pumping money into the UN". In fact, if the US had done their share of pumping money and/or resources into the UN, sad history now unfolding would have been very different. Every significant military participation by the USA which had any sort of international flavour has been either unilateral or under the umbrella of NATO---a confrontational organisation if ever there was one. Too many powerful nations in this world are solely guided by "what's best for ME" .

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:25 AM

Annan spoke out, so it's payback time
By Caroline Overington, Herald Correspondent in New York
December 4, 2004

All talk? The whisper in Washington is that there were two losers on November 2. The first was John Kerry, who lost the election to George Bush. The second was Kofi Annan....

Annan spoke out, so it's payback time

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:39 AM

As the US continues not to pay UN contributions in full, the US is responsible for approximately half of the UN debt.

graphs of money owed to UN

Subject: RE: BS: Kofi Annan is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:24 PM

"What can be done to make the UN more effective?"

Freda gave you the answer to that in the post above this.