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Subject: Last of the Last From: Zany Mouse Date: 11 Nov 09 - 02:15 PM I know this thread probably belongs below the line but, as many mudcatters don't stray so low, I'm putting it here. I was surprised by an article on PM at 5pm (Radio 4, BBC) that Messrs Ellingham and Patch were not the last survivors from our armed forces. There is at least one more! The Last of The Last Blessings Rhiannon |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Nov 09 - 03:07 AM Well, it stayed above the line for half a day (protected by its nondescript title), but it IS a non-music thread, so down below the line it goes. You'll find that successful threads have descriptive titles and informative first messages. A first message that is chiefly a link, just isn't enough to attract attention. And it ain't fair to put a non-music thread above the line, just so it will get attention. -Joe- Here's an excerpt from the article Rhiannon linked to:
BRITAIN'S last surviving WWI veteran, who fought for the Australian navy in WWII and now lives in Perth, has notched another accolade - as a first-time author at the age of 108. Claude Choules, who is also the last known Great War veteran living in Australia, enlisted with Britain's Royal Navy at just 15 in 1916 and later served with HMS Revenge. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: GREEN WELLIES Date: 12 Nov 09 - 03:36 AM This was on our local news last night, he came originally from Worcestershire. The paintings which his grandson (I think) has done depicting his life and beautiful. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Donuel Date: 12 Nov 09 - 09:06 AM The last civil war veteran passed when I was 8. What is true for veterns then is true now. today 180,000 of vets are homeless and wandering the street. More troops have commited suicide since 2001 than have died from physical wounds. 2,456 vets have died due to not having health care insurance and access to treatment since 2006. Vets get shell shock. Always have always will no matter what each generation calls it. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Rapparee Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:03 AM Lady Liberty Cries Lady Liberty cries tears no one can see. Another Veteran's Day will come and go It passes as quick as parade Is, in short, underpaid. Ribbons of support with no actions, Administration's gain, patriotic fractions. The budget for Veteran's health may come along soon, but late. In the meantime, sit and wait, There is a delay in your care, the funding is simply not there. or if you're a soldier, here's another tour. Give service to your country swear by oath to honor the rights of life and liberty. We will show our gratitude with years of grief. Not one of the freedoms and rights we enjoy were given for free, ask any military family you see. Living lives too many fail to see, far too long on the streets, in homes here and there, where no one could show one ounce of care. His life in the hand of a system too slow. One night the cold winter air took his breath as he found the only bed he was given was death. Meet Charles they gathered up pills to help him be mute, drool and stare. I was told he met with many an unknowing doctor, who had lived only in the land of the free and had never seen war except on TV He ran as long as he could from his battle scenes invading his head his daytime and dreams. In the night he could not turn down the screams. He died to his own bullet that brings, death many an honorable soldier and vet. Lady Liberty reaches her hand to console, another child whose parent will never come home. Roy, was 18 breathing toxic tank emissions and taking ammunitions, saw 65% of his troops die within minutes. His lungs are torn from years of fumes, yet in his voice his has no scorn, he would never complain of his pain or no care, most of his unit were laid to rest, KIA. Aged 18- 23 "they say they will fit him in" until the orange is all his is. Yet he finds it in his warrior heart, his last days to visit his ailing friend a Veteran- my dying father, and they had just met. They tell us we'll do better with these men and women this time, that is the ones who make it home. try our new therapeutic tone A new pill that will surely make you forget hell or not tell. promises to reopen some closed homes, find the homeless Vets beds. But the money for this care, is simply not there. it's used to buy new war toys, In blood soaked, screams the war coffers grow, in secrets only few know. They tell her to stop all the ruckus, she finds she has no choice but to raise her voice to a holler. Still they try to beat her down with blank stares, compassionless glares. As she falls to her knees, crumbles, and cries, and still all she is given is lie after lie.. Lady Liberty has donned a megaphone so she yells, "It is our duty to care for those who have sacrificed so much!" They fought for your country, and were given nothing but the run around. Such sacrifices of freedom many bear. As another young soldier is told, "your PTSD psychoanalysis appointments are coming soon, In the meantime with life, a shadow of a ruin, forget you hold that gun in your hand." His mother finds him, a 22 year old Iraq war combat veteran, is laid to rest. as Lady Liberty shed tears that flood the land. The dawns morning light shines on Lady Liberty as she hang her head in shame. These men deserve care far above the rest, yet we fail to give them our best. She heard him call out to his only friends, his brothers, the fallen soldiers, whose names are to many a word on The Wall, to others they have never gone at all. Arriving on time to guide their brother on this last battle road. They tell him 'The flight jackets are ready", they assure him, it won't be long and that you are never alone, the day is fine with blue skies and clear flying for this soldier who never forgot his friends, fallen soldiers and vets .... as the fallen soldiers- angels come to take him home. Colors of red, white and blue, holding the founding father's beliefs true. living lives of the star spangled banner not in lands, or laws, names, or matter They 'are' the home of the brave Which the system will not save. See how they never fail, as they wipe your daughter's tears, as if they'd known her for years. No red-tape or grave can steal, the memories of men so real. I bow my head and feel humbled their stories, sacrifices, and valor. Let's never forget Stanley, who had been in the Navy since age 17 No pain could keep him from living his ideal, always fighting for the rights of all who served by his side, pushing wheelchairs and helping young troops to hit their stride I thought he was staff or a volunteer When he really had stage 5. A bond that is stronger than blood, deep and real No man, laws, or time could steal. He died, with no care, canceled appointments. A hero, who deserves our best, is laid to rest. She vows at that moment to do her part to change the tide, not knowing where to start, this is a Vietnam Veteran daughter's rhyme. Lady Liberty holds her head high, as the flag of the American Revolution hangs silent in night sky, watching over the graveyards of all the brave men who have died. The call of justice is nigh, as a soldier's daughter hangs her head to cry, she comforts a soldier's daughter passing by. A bellowing breaks the silence of those dying and underserved. Lady Liberty smiles as their lost voices will be heard. Soldiers are dying and those who make it back home are veterans…. Veterans are living on the streets, one of every three you see. A Veteran attends his church service in nothing but rags. A brain injured soldier returns not remembering his name. A veteran comes home, with no hope of ever walking again A mother comes home with war trauma, unable to put her thoughts in order, as she trying to care for her bright eyed toddler. A veteran in need of medical care is being told to wait,dying in an under-funded system. A veteran finds suicide, to end the pain when there is no mental health care. A Veteran with trauma is arrested, the judge seals his fate. And a parent hears the doorbell ring given her child's dog tags. On Veteran's Day, on any day- what will your actions show? Or will it pass again as quickly as a parade. --Kristin Lee © 2007 |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Mrrzy Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:08 AM I was totally amazed to hear that until this year, there were still WWI vets in Britain... |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Lighter Date: 12 Nov 09 - 10:10 AM One U.S. veteran of World War I is still with us - Frank Buckles of West Virginia. He's 108. Not only did Buckles serve in France in 1918, he was a prisoner of the Japanese in the Philippines during World War II. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Buckles |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Ebbie Date: 12 Nov 09 - 12:41 PM "More troops have commited suicide since 2001 than have died from physical wounds." Donuel 9:06 This is the second time you have made this statement, Don. Please document it, because it is an unacceptable untruth. Fewer than 150 per year of US troops have died by suicide. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Zany Mouse Date: 12 Nov 09 - 01:02 PM Fair comment, Joe. I was thinking it tied in with the Remembrance Sunday thread as this guy originally served with the Royal Navy. That thread stayed above the line. There has been great hype here in the UK about the "last" WW1 fighters dying this last year and I thought it should be brought to folk's attention that they are NOT the last from the UK fighting forces. Blessings Rhiannon |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Ebbie Date: 12 Nov 09 - 05:51 PM I don't find information that Shinseki made the charge; however, another man did. It does not sound credible to me, more like a figure that is tossed out. It doesn't jibe with what he himself reported earlier. One of Several "In one of the emails, sent in February, Dr Ira Katz, deputy chief patient care services officer for mental health at the VA, wrote: "Shh! Our suicide prevention coordinators are identifying about 1,000 suicide attempts per month among the veterans we see." ********************* "The figure was at odds with the 144 known suicides among veterans from 2001, when the US launched its war against terror by bombing Afghanistan, through the end of 2005, which Katz had cited in his December testimony, Filner said." ********************* "Suicides among activee-duty soldiers are at a 30-year high, and male veterans face suicide rates double the national average. At Fort Hood, 75 soldiers have taken their lives since the war in Afghanistan began eight years ago -- 10 in this year alone. Veterans also account for up to 25 percent of all the homeless, and many have trouble finding work. As the Center for American Progress has warned, repeated deployments compound the PTSD problem. VA Secretary Eric Shinseki relayed this message yesterday on CBS's "The Early Show." "The more people go back, it multiplies the incidences of these kinds of things occurring," Shinseki said." |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Steve Shaw Date: 12 Nov 09 - 08:34 PM Claude, I think, is the last left in the world who actually saw active service. More important than that is that he is a superb harmonica player. :-) |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:07 PM To repeat: American Frank Buckles, 108, was on active service with the U.S. Army in France in 1918. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age From: Charley Noble Date: 13 Nov 09 - 08:45 PM Here's what one of my favorite World War 1 poets, a decorated soldier on the front lines, was brave enough to say in 1917: "I am making this statement as an act of willful defiance of military authority, because I believe the war is being deliberately prolonged by those who have the power to end it. I am a soldier, convinced that I am acting on behalf of soldiers. I believe that this war, upon which I entered as a war of defence and liberation has now become a war of aggression and conquest. I believe that the purposes for which I and my fellow soldiers entered upon this war should have been so clearly stated as to have made it impossible to change them, and that, had this been done, the objects witch actuated us would now be attainable by negotiation. I have seen and endured the suffering of the troops, and I can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust. I am not protesting against the conduct of the war, but against the political errors and insincerity's for which the fighting men are being sacrificed. On behalf of those who are suffering now I make this protest against the deception which is being practised on them; also I believe that I may help to destroy the callous complacence with which the majority of those at home regard the continuance of agonies which they do not share, and which they have not sufficient imagination to realise." Notes: This is a copy of the open letter, published in The Times newspaper, 31 July 1917. The letter published by a war hero (Sassoon won the Military Medal) caused a minor furor and questions were asked in the Houses of Parliament. By Siegfried Sasson (1886-1967) Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Steve Shaw Date: 13 Nov 09 - 08:52 PM I stand corrected, Lighter. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: GUEST,H.A. Willis Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:16 AM As editor of Claude Choules's book, The Last of the Last, let me offer a few clarifying remarks. The claim is that Claude is the last man alive who served as a combatant in the First World War, and that he is the last man alive who saw active service in both World Wars. He served in the Royal Navy in WWI, seeing his first action on HMS Revenge in the North Sea in November 1917. He served in the Royal Australian Navy during WWII as an explosives and demolition officer, based at Fremantle, Western Australia. As such he helped service torpedoes, depth charges and sonar equipment on US, Dutch, Australian and British vessels calling at Fremantle. He served at Broome, in Northern Australia, helping to clean up the mess after the Japanese bombed that town and port. He was also tasked with defusing mines and unexploded mines that washed up anywhere on the WA coast -- dangerous work that is "active" service, but not quite a "combatant". With regard to Frank Buckles. Without in anyway wishing to downplay his service it has to be said, as he openly states in several interviews, that he did serve as a combatant in WW1, but as an ambulance driver. He himself has said that he saw no combat, although he certainly saw the horrible results of the fighting. The distinction between "active service" and "combatant" is one that those who served in the Great War would have understood perhaps a little better than modern sensibilities. It is also said that Frank Buckles was a prisoner of the Japanese during WWII. This is true. He was held, I believe, for more than three years -- but as a civilian prisoner. He was captured when the Japanese took Manila, where Mr Buckles was working as a purser aboard a White Star passenger liner. I have no doubt the Japanese did not make much (if any) distinction between civilian and military prisoners, and Mr Buckles must have had a far more unpleasant war than Claude, who often got to sleep in his own bed in his home at Fremantle. But the fact remains, Claude Choules was a member of a military force during WWII and Frank Buckles was not. As I said, we have no wish to appear to denigrate the service or the experiences of Frank Buckles, who, from interviews I have seen on youtube, comes across as a wise and very decent man, well deserving of the honor and respect he is accorded. Claude Choules slipped under a lot of people's radar because he has been a very private man who basically put the past behind him. I have met him to discuss certain editorial decisions and clarify his text. and I can tell you that although very frail, he is still with us and has a lively sense of humor. Claude wrote his memoirs 25 years ago, but at that time he was merely one of thousands of old soldiers and the project went into a bottom draw. History has now come around to the man who is the last living witness to the surrender of the German Fleet and its scuttling at Scapa Flow. Of course I am an interested party here, but I have to say that I think anyone who reads Claude's book will be impressed by the man and his story. For more information, have a look at the press release at http://www.hesperianpress.com/ |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: GUEST,H.A. Willis Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:02 AM Correction. My apologies to all concerned, but in my previous post I should have said "With regard to Frank Buckles. Without in anyway wishing to downplay his service it has to be said, as he openly states in several interviews, that he did NOT serve as a combatant in WW1, but as an ambulance driver. He himself has said that he saw no combat, although he certainly saw the horrible results of the fighting." Embarrassing to admit, but even editors sometimes fail to proofread their own words with sufficient attention. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 14 Nov 09 - 10:00 AM H.A. Willis, your clarification is welcome. Choule is indeed the last person living to have seen action in World War I and certainly the last living sailor to have served on active duty in that conflict. I should point out that at least in this country, "active duty" means full-time duty in one of the armed forces whether or not in the face of the enemy. "Active service" is not (I believe) used with a technical meaning. It does imply service in the face of the enemy, i.e., under fire, though one may be under fire very briefly (which is plenty). At any rate, Buckles appears to be the last living soldier to have served in uniform with any combatant nation in France during World War I. Both men have obviously led extraordinary lives and should be appropriately honored. I e-mailed one of the cable news networks on Veterans' Day to chide them for failing to mention Buckles in a story on the current number of U.S. veterans. When the same story aired a few hours later, a prefatory note gave Buckles his due. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:12 PM World War 1 may stand alone as the most egregious slaughter of the youth of Europe of all time. Old tactics of human wave attacks ran head on into the new technology of killing, the machine gun, howitzer, and mustard gas. 57,000 English soldiers died on the first day of the Battle of the Somme, ordered into the German defenses by men who felt that England had a Blood Debt to pay to the French and Russians, who had previously sacrificed more troops. Eventually, the reality of these horrific mechanisms caused the armies to dig in, spawning the new nightmare of trench warfare. By the War's end, any pretense of glory had been disgarded by those who served. Great poetry came from this war, from men like Sigfried Sassoon and Wilfred Owen, many of whom died in the conflict. Here is a sample, which I don't think is out of place as we remember those last survivors. Wilfed Owen GREATER LOVE Red lips are not so red As the stained stones kissed by the English dead. Kindness of wooed and wooer Seems shame to their love pure. O Love, your eyes lose lure When I behold eyes blinded in my stead! Your slender attitude Trembles not exquisite like limbs knife-skewed, Rolling and rolling there Where God seems not to care; Till the fierce love they bear Cramps them in death's extreme decrepitude. Your voice sings not so soft,-- Though even as wind murmuring through raftered loft,-- Your dear voice is not dear, Gentle, and evening clear, As theirs whom none now hear, Now earth has stopped their piteous mouths that coughed. Heart, you were never hot Nor large, nor full like hearts made great with shot; And though your hand be pale, Paler are all which trail Your cross through flame and hail: Weep, you may weep, for you may touch them not. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Matt_R Date: 14 Nov 09 - 04:44 PM 57,000 British soldiers were not killed on the first day on the Somme. That was the total casualties ... the number of killed was 19,240. And Britain going to war was more about Belgium than a "Blood Debt to France and Russia" despite being part of the Entente. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Lighter Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:06 PM Yeah, what is this "Blood Debt" stuff? News to me. Also, before condemning the Brits alone for squandering human life on the Somme (though obviously they did), let's consider the nearly 500,000 German casualties at Verdun - the result of the German "strategy" to "bleed France dry." It was all quite mad. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Lonesome EJ Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:33 PM Thanks Matt R for the correction. That's what I get for relying on memory. Regarding the Blood Debt, in Peter Hart's The Somme: Darkest Hour on the Western Front, he states "even if (British General) Haig had fully realized the depth and breadth of the losses suffered by his assaulting divisions on 1 July he could not have aborted the offensive without seriously jeopardizing the entente cordial with France and Russia...They were unlikely to look on with any great sympathy if Britain tried to evade her share of 'the butcher's bill'." After France's mauling at Verdun, and according to General Haig, French Commander Joffre expressed the view that the French Army was demoralized and near collapse. Haig and the British command had favored an August 15th attack, allowing for build up of allied forces and artillery reduction of the German defenses, but Joffre was of the opinion that the attack must launch no later than July 1, saying "the French Army would cease to exist if we did nothing until then." If you question Hart's credentials, he is none other than chief historian at England's Imperial War Museum in London, the government museum for World War 1. As for it all being quite mad, on that we can agree. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Lighter Date: 15 Nov 09 - 11:08 AM Hart's analysis is undoubtedly correct. However, as big a blockhead as Haig was, I wonder if he would have launched the attack if he truly believed success was unlikely. Basically it seems as though those in charge held the opinion that failure to attack by the beginning of July would have led to a rapid German victory the the East and the West. Which, considering what did happen over the next 30 to 75 years, may or may not have been a good thing for the future of Europe. |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Date: 05 May 11 - 04:36 AM The last known combat veteran of the First World War has died at the age of 110. British-born Claude Stanley Choules, who was known as "Chuckles" by his comrades, joined the Royal Navy aged just 14 and witnessed the scuttling of the German fleet at Scapa Flow in 1919. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/last-first-world-war-veteran-dies-041955423.html |
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Subject: RE: Last of the Last - WWI veteran, author at age 108 From: Silas Date: 05 May 11 - 04:52 AM Haig was not 'mad'. The war was not 'Mad' either - as for Kaiser Bill - the jury is still out. |
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Subject: RE: Obit:Last of the Last-WWI veteran, dies at age 110 From: Charley Noble Date: 05 May 11 - 08:12 AM RIP, Claude Stanley Choules. So it goes. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Obit:Last of the Last-WWI veteran, dies at age 110 From: pdq Date: 05 May 11 - 09:28 AM A bit off topic perhaps, by America's most popular banjo "strummer" Eddie Peabody also joined the Navy at age 14 so he could fight for the cause in WWI. I think he was on a submarine. He re-joined for WWII where he organized entertainment. He eventually held a very high rank. |
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