BS: The Jena 6 Controversy

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 09:18 PM

Heck, Bobert, law enforcement can prosecute just about anybody
they want, particularly those who have limited rights and resources
to fight them.

They just call it 'disorderly conduct' (which, insofar as I can tell,
amounts to doing anything a cop doesn't want you to do, including
things you have a perfect right to do).

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 09:29 PM

'cept hangin' nooses....

Nobody has a right to do that, especially in the South where it is equivelent to burnin' a cross in yer front yard...

Come to think of it, other than trespassin', burnin' a cross in someone's front yard ain't illegal in most Southern states...

This is what I mean by "hate crimes"... If more Southern prosecutors had the balls to bring charges agianst the Jim Crowists then alot of the Jiom Crow stuff would eventually stop... But they aren't... They are elected and worried about getting re-elected and that means letting white folks do what ever they want lond as no "niggers" ain't actually killed.... And if a "nigger" is killed then better cover your tracks...

That's the way it is in the South...

Talk about a War in Terrorism... It oughta be fought in the Soputh before trying in out elsewhere....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:05 PM

There is a law in LA, Louisiana Statute RS 14:225, which makes institutional vandalism a crime, and it was specifically intended to deal with defacing of schools, churches, and other institutions with hate symbols--Given that decorating a tree with toilet paper is considered an act of vandalism, it is certainly arguable that hanging nooses in a tree is an act of vandalism as well.

A different prosecutor might have interpreted the law much differently than Mr. Walters did. Perhaps, if he had known that this would become a national issue, he would have interpretted it differently, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:37 PM

The way I read that statute is that there must be a dollar value to the vandalism.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:16 AM

Not the way I read it, Q. It just says what the punishment should be according to dollar amount of vandalism, defacement, and/or "otherwise damaging" such property:

(1) When the damage is less than five hundred dollars, the offender shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both.

Higher dollar amounts, more punishment, the way I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Janie
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:29 AM

Well Beaubear,   

I don't think it is as simple as that, and I don't think we are on exactly the same page on this one. However, I am also realizing (again) that this is the wrong forum (small f) on which for me to be writing. (I just deleted another one of my too long posts on which I have spent way too much time editing and reworking.) I have no mastery of the 'pithy comment', insufficient wit, and no musical expertise or talent sufficient to give me enough 'stock' to reasonably expect others to put up with them here. There are many lively discussions on a number of social issues that occur here, and for a long time I successfully resolved to read them with interest and keep my windbag mouth shut. I ain't as bad as the Shambles, but I am as rambling, and I am definitely not as impervious, so I'm gonna shut my trap and renew my resolve to stay off of these threads until I fergit again.

Later gater.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:15 AM

The cost of having the school groundskeeper remove the
nooses represents a dollar-value, if the prosecutor
wanted to see it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:24 AM

Seems some people can't quit being purposefully obtuse. The point Lonesome EJ seems to be making (as I see it, anyway) is not that it wasn't a royal screw-up with racist undertones. The point is that this is not the equivalent of the behaviors OR intent of the 60s civil rights movement and it is a terrible and irrational INJUSTICE TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT OF THE 60S TO CLAIM ANY PARALLEL.

Further, these thugs stand for NOTHING that any civil, rational person would wish to stand behind.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:23 PM

Was I being obtuse, John? That's usually not one of my traits.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:09 PM

John Hardly, how can anything be an INJUSTICE TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS
MOVEMENT OF THE 60S, as you shout so loudly? It was a movement, not a
person. Why should that even be a concern?

There is a parallel to that period, in that the fight here is about
institutionalized racism and the practical racism of public officials
in the American South.

There's another parallel in that the 'movement' of the 60's had
both pacifist and violent undertones and overtones.

There is a difference between now and the 60's in that the racism
which is currently at issue is not set down in law. In fact, the
law seems to forbid it.

Where Civil Rights movements have failed, and continue to fail, is
in resolving the sort of insidious racism (and the faulty conscienses
which underlie it). In Jena, we have the perfect examples:

1. That in this day and age there should be permitted in a school
   a culture where such a thing as a 'white tree' could exist.
2. That in this day and age ANY young person of high school age
   should believe for one moment that the presentation of a noose
   in a tree to an African American isn't a crime.
3. The institutional racism that had the school board not just
   reinstate the expelled culprits, but actually reduced the
   punishment to little more than a slap on the wrist.
4. The institutional racism that has the Jena DA finding ways
   to justify not prosecuting a clear hate crime while 'throwing
   the book' at a young African American man who, by all appearances,
   was caught up in the aftermath of the hate crime
5. The institutional racism which has an African American Bush
   Administration official unwilling to go out on a limb (you'll
   pardon the pun) to prosecute the noose-hangers.

Jena makes it clear that, for all the trappings of equality, the
hearts and the minds of the white population have not been won,
at least not in places like Jena. That although the laws have
changed, those who uphold it aren't willing, for various reasons,
to do so.

That is the tragedy of Jena--- and it belongs on the front page
with Al Sharpton standing on the courthouse steps and calling it
what it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 02:52 PM

Here is an article written immediately after the trial last summer. It refutes some of the "facts" posted above, but, more importantly, it gives a detailed picture of what has happened, and why. What Blane Williams should have known

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:05 PM

I have no wish to get involved in the main issues that are driving this discussion, but...

I can't help but note that the town's name, Jena, is being pronounced "Jeena" by people on the news. "Jean-ah".

Strange, because I think the name came from a place in central Europe near where Napoleon fought a big battle with the Prussians, and the people there pronounce it "Yay-nah". The "J" is pronounced like we pronounce a "Y", the "e" is pronounced like "eh". YAY-NAH.

Of course, Jesus wasn't really called "Jesus" back then either. He was probably called "Yeshua". And the Spanish-speaking people nowadays call him "Hay-SOOS", while some other people call him "YAY-SOO" and others prefer to think he never even existed. Well, these things tend to change in translation as they move around, right? ;-)

That's it. My one and only comment here about Jena. You may now all continue debating.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:21 PM

Lonesome EJ,

No, you were not being obtuse. Obviously I was, because the point I was making was that others were being purposely obtuse to not have gotten the point you were clearly making.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:38 PM

Thanks. I don't always recognize obtusion when I see it. obtusity. obtusiveness?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: John Hardly
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:52 PM

I only know opacity. Obtusity is too geometric.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:24 PM

Well stated, Greg...

Until the grown ups start enforcing civil rights laws the underlying message to everyone, regardless of race, is that Jim Crow is just peachy dandy with those who have the power... Especially in the rural South...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:45 PM

Jena was named for the place where Napoleon won victory. But these names adopt either French or English pronunciation in Louisiana, depending on which group is dominant.
Originally it would have had the French pronunciation, or Jheh-na, not the German of the city near which Napoleon won (Yeh-na). I have not heard reliably how it is pronounced now. Irish, English and German ancestors are probably most prominent among the townspeople now.
It is in LaSalle Parish, named for Rene Robert Cavelier, Sieur de la Salle.
LaSalle Parish Court is in Jena.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: fumblefingers
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 01:35 AM

When I lived in Jena, LA the locals called the place Jean uh.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:27 PM

A fairly good case can be made that the Jena Six were charged with a crime, imprisoned, and prosecuted as a retaliation, by the prosecutor, for leading protests related to the "noose" incident--and in fact, that is the fundamental issue here. Check the link that I posted above for more information on what happened, and didn't happen, at the trial.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 08:32 PM

Assault and battery is not a crime?
Only one was imprisoned, not six.
The blog is just that- without credibility.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 10:18 PM

To repeat, Bell was on probation, and had been convicted of previous assaults and property damage. Only his football ability was keeping him out of custody.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: pdq
Date: 29 Sep 07 - 10:24 PM

Repeat: Mychal Bell was convicted of aggravated battery. That is exactly what he did. What is the big problem?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:02 AM

Q, I assume that you are referring to the link I posted above. The website is not a "blog"--it is the home of Friends of Justice--it is a criminal justice reform organization, and the group that the families of the Jena 6 turned for assistance when the legal system failed them.

Rev. Alan Bean, a Baptist minister, heads the organization, and went to Jena to observe the trial, to investigate the situation, and to assemble resources. What you read there is the result of on the scene investigation , interviews with witnesses, examination of police records, and an eye witness reporting of the events. It is highly credible.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:41 AM

As to PDQs comment--based on eyewitness accounts, it is not clear who struck Justin Barker. The only adult to witness the incident named another individual, Malcolm Shaw, as the assailant--however the defense attorney didn't call him to testify. Other witnesses claim that a person wearing a green jacket, struck the blow. Bell was wearing a black jacket. These points were not presented to the jury--and they might have changed the verdict--

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 09:21 AM

It was never clear to me why the DA brought charges of attempted murder to begin with, or is that just something the media threw in for hype?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: pdq
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:25 PM

"It was never clear to me why the DA brought charges of attempted murder to begin with..."

It is very common for the DA to file higher charges because:

               1. the suspect is expected to confess to a lesser charge

               2. a judge or jury can always reduce the charges

               3. once filed, the charges cannot be raised, only lowered

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:57 PM

That's really the million dollar question, Riginslinger--why did the prosecutor do what he did?

Prosecutors often have political ambitions--and there will always be enthusiatic support from some quarters for anyone who takes a "tough" stand on a controversial issue, especially if it is a racial issue. It is probably not fair to jump to that conclusion, but it is Louisiana......

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 02:13 PM

A lot of nonsense is written about African-American treatment in the courts in the South. If one looks at the statistics, compiled in a lead article by "The Black Commentator," African-American incarceration by percentage:
          Ratio of Black to White prisoners
Wisconsin               11.60
Iowa                   11.60
Texas                   5.14
Oklahoma                4.63
Arizona                  5.24
Delaware                6.56
Nevada                   4.29
Oregon                   6.03
California               5.87
Colorado                6.98
For a number of other reasons, the states listed above are considered to be the worst for incarceration of Blacks, in spite of higher ratios in New York and Illinois. Read the article for details, link below.

Mississippi             4.12
Louisiana                5.94
Alabama                  4.50
S. Carolina             4.99
Georgia                  4.14
Maryland                6.8
N. Carolina             6.08
Delaware                6.56
Virginia                6.28
Tennessee                5.08
NEW YORK                9.47
Arkansas                4.48
ILLINOIS                7.53

All eleven southern states lock up noticeably higher per capita numbers of their whole populations, black, white and otherwise, than do New York and Illinois. But southern rates of disparity between black and white imprisonment do not approach those of Illinois at 7.5 to one or New York's 9.5 to one. The article concludes that 'the Old South' is just not a good place to be poor, whether one is black or white.

Ten Worst Places to be Black

In New York, African-Americans and Latinos constitute 25% of the population, but 83% of all New York state prisoners are African-American. Drug convictions skew the NY figures somewhat, but are about 20% of the total.
For New York figures, see New York

Alan Bean belongs with Sharpton and that ilk; much talk, little substance.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 03:56 PM

And the ratio of whites to non-whites in the several States' populations is....?

And the differences in sentancng between whites and non-whites convicted is?

& etc.

A case of lies, damned lies & statistics, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 04:06 PM

MATH QUIZ

"About half the nation's 2.2 million prisoners are black." If that same statistic were applied to non-Blacks, what would the number be?

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 05:30 PM

Other witnesses claim that a person wearing a green jacket, struck the blow. Bell was wearing a black jacket.

And they say Southern justice isn't color blind! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 05:38 PM

Innocent pic here.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 07:38 PM

My exact point, pdq... It is a practice for prosecutors to bring more serious charges...

Exactly what did the prosecutor bring against the white "noosers"???

Nuthin'...

(Well, Bobert, there ain't no laws about "nooses"...)

Bull... There are laws when the noose is interpreted as a physical threat... That makes it a battery, at the very least...

So why weren't the white kids charged with anything other than being, ahhh, friggin' suspended from schools and having their white only tree cut down???

This is what this is all about... It's about equal justice...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: pdq
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 07:54 PM

Just a small aside: Do you really believe there are 15-year-olds who can tie a proper hangman's noose?

I can't do one and I have my Boy Scout merit badge in rope tying. (such a thing was not included, of course)

I think my phrase "noose-like piece of rope stuck in a tree" is more accurate. Rude: yes. Scary: probably not very. Illegal: No.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 08:14 PM

No, pd-ster... It is very much a crime... Historically the "noose" has been used as not only a threat but a threat that has been carried out...

Ignorance of the law by the white kids is no excuse... They should have been chareged and it is my argument that had they been charged that it would have ended there...

And BTW, a noose ain't all that hard to make and I don't have a Boy Scout merit badge in knot tying whioch, of course, ain't all that surprising seein' as I wasn't a Boy Scout...

As for your assessment that the noose ain't all that scarey.... Ahhhh, come on down to the Southland and live a couple weeks as a rural balck and I think you might have a differnt perspective... In much of the South black folks still have to walk the white man's line... But don't tell me that these black folks ain't aware of the institutional racsim that is built into the systems around them... I've spent most of my life livin' in rural South...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:31 PM

Let me get this straight. If some asshole should hang a swastika in a local park not generally frequented by Jews, I, as a Jew,have the right to assemble a bunch of friends, three months after the incident, and beat the hell out of some German-American who I happen to encounter, but who may or may not have anything to do with the "hate crime".

C'mon ---get real. There is a real and serious problem concerning unequal treatment of minorities by the law, but these six and Mychal Bell in particular, seem to be particularly unattractive poster children for the cause.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:43 PM

No, Dick... You are missin' Part A of the strory where the swastika was hung and the the4 grown ups in the community did nothing...

This is less about the Jena 6 than about the treatment that the white kids got for hanging the noose...

I don't think anyone here condone's the beating of the white kid, even though it should be pointed out that one of the Jean ^ black kids had been beated by a group of white kids just days before... And again, what was the response to the black kid gettin' beaten??? Nothing, that's waht???

This entire situation is about the dual system of justice and why we have two systems at all... Well, I'll tell ya why... It's because we have institutional racism in this country... Jena has proven that beyond any shadow of doubt...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:50 PM

Bobert-
I'm well aware of part A. The school principal tried to take appropriate action, but was overruled by the school board. If you want to say that that's a good reason to get rid of school boards, I wouldn't argue. What I'm objecting to is some posters' idea that what the black kids did was in some way justified.
I'm also well aware of institutionalized racism in this country. I just don't think that this case is the best one to illustrate it. Anymore than I thought OJ's murder trial was much of a peg on which to hang an accusation of anti-Black legal bias.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 11:50 PM

With due respect, Dick, hold back your judgment on this issue until you read Bill Quigley's Account of the Jena 6 He is a human rights lawyer and law professor from Loyola University and has been active in bringing the issue to public attention.

Also, read the article above, "What Blane Williams should have..." it was written by Rev. Alan Bean, who attended the trial and whose organization, Friends of Justice, have conducted an investigation of the incidents involved in this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 08:14 AM

Mychal Bell is back in jail;

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 01:50 PM

The sentence was very lenient considering the history of anti-social criminal acts, including violation of parole, by this person.
Jena is safer with him in custody.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Peace
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 02:07 PM

M Ted: Thank you for that link. I hadn't read the whole story phrased in quite that way. Makes a guy hope that that isn't what constitutes 'justice' in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:59 PM

Q... given what we know about 'justice' in Jena, it doesn't seem
to me like there's much credibility to anything they say about
a young African American male--- prior convictions or present
subject matter. So you really don't have much of a foundation
to say that 'Jena is safer with him in custody.'

Indeed, if Jena continues with their brand of 'Southern justice'
things may get one hell of a lot less safe. Can you say 'Rodney
King?'

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 04:21 PM

In the end, Rodney King seems like kind of a bad example to persuade public opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 06:13 PM

What do you know about justice in Jena? What do you know about the laws of Louisiana (or anywhere else, for that matter)?.
Like some others who have posted, the message conveyed is that passion in an argument is inversely proportional to the amount of real information advanced.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Greg B
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:15 PM

The Rodney King riots were the inevitable result of justice
denied. You can push a people only so far. Okay, so how about
another example. 1968. The inner cities.

What do I know of what passes for 'justice' in Jena? Only what
I've read in the numerous articles, which strongly suggest that there
is one justice for the white man, another for the black man, and both
are administered and/or controlled by the white man.

It seems to me that in a place like Jena, we don't know much of
anything, because the truth is bent to the purposes of the
racist establishment.

In such an environment, 'truth' is elusive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 08:09 PM

Yup, Greg... Welcome to the South...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:02 PM

There is pretty good evidence that these prosecutions are retaliatory--I know that a lot of people want to believe that that sort of thing doesn't happen in this day and age, but it does--and it will continue as long as people are content to deny it---

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:53 PM

M.Ted, thanks for the link. Very interesting publication.

One comment on the article: it would not be unusual for a lot of small towns in the West to also wind up with all-white juries, etc. A lot of small towns out here have few if any minorities and, in Colorado, those would most likely be of Latino descent. Just an observation, I would prefer it were otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
From: Melissa
Date: 13 Oct 07 - 12:33 PM

Why does the conversation start with the 'noose-like' ropes instead of the tree?
Isn't the tree given as the first bit of the story?
IS it racist to gather in the same spot with your friends every day? Isn't the tree a Territory thing?

There's a thread which consists of Musicians discussing the problem of shaky eggs. The gist seems to be that shaky eggs are perfectly fine...as long as they don't mingle with the Musicians. Consensus seems to be that egg shakers need to realize that they are not a viable part of the loosely defined group.
In other words, egg shakers should stay on their own side of the tracks?

Hate is hate, no matter how humorously it's presented.

When someone feels invaded, they get pissed. I don't think that's abnormal. Retaliation is generally stupid by nature and obnoxious teenage behavior is more likely to lean toward non-subtlety. What are they going to do? Nooses. If the problem was with girls invading 'their' space? Pads...and that would make it sexist instead of racist?

I fully agree that hatred and injustice are wrong...and shame on the generations that have taught/allowed this problem to have happened. Punishment does no good when the punished have not learned the concept of Consequences and/or Personal Responsibility.
Shame on all of us for not knowing how in the world to fix what is broken..I, for one, am beginning to dread the upcoming Civil War Sesquicentennial.

As a human being, I am ashamed of intolerance, irresponsible reactivism and bullying.
What's gained by arguing to save our own opinion when a little open minded acceptance might give us a chance of understanding something that was maybe a little bit hazy or unformed in our thoughts when the thread began? If we can't talk here without feeling threatened, how are we going to be part of the Solution?

Hanging noose-like items in a tree is decidedly creepy, but I believe the story started before that.
I don't think any of us know why, with that many peer witnesses, there was only one kid with injuries. It seems to me that if the whole story was racially oriented, his friends would have gotten riled and joined the mess.

I think we all agree that injustice is wrong and therefore must be stopped. However, I'm certain that the media spectacle is not going to provide enough information for any of us to figure out how to Save the World. The responsibility for figuring that out lies within our selves.

Cutting down the tree seems a lot like locking the barn after the horse was stolen and since it was apparently a popular tree, it seems like cutting it down would escalate tension instead of making it go away...but then again, a person who can't figure out why good folks would get bloodthirsty over Shaky Egg Intolerance could easily be mistaken about logical repercussions.

M