BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 07:41 AM

BANNED BOOKS U.S.

SUPPRESSION of FREE SPEECH US
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 07:48 AM

"Let's face it, without justifying any of it: shit happens everywhere."

And all deserve condemnation, it is you and your pals who attempt to justify.

"Every time you pick out an isolated outrage in one country to demonstrate what baddies their leaders are, it's no trouble to pick out ten others in the places you think are very nice. A sterile line of enquiry, I'd say."

What an idiotic line of argument, but one that does not surprise me considering the person putting it forward.

On lines of argument this, also yours, is equally idiotic:

"Their own government, in the land of the free, is so shit scared of the gun lobby that it can be blamed to a very large extent for the runaway gun culture that ultimately leads to those school mass-murders."

Especially as you put it as a counter to the fact that the police, border guards and army of the DDR blindly followed orders to gun down their own citizens and seemed to do it with a diligence and zeal that defies description.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 08:06 AM

Yikes, these bizarre attempts to draw spurious equivalence smacks of desperation. Sometimes you just have to accept the fact that your argument has been destroyed and move on, else the hole just keeps getting deeper.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 08:45 AM

What a ridiculous deflection, Teribus. I'm not putting anything up as a "counter." When I say that shit happens everywhere I'm not playing your silly yah-boo he's-as-bad-as-me schoolyard game. If I'd wanted to do that I could have pointed to IDF snipers shooting children on a beach. I'm saying that picking out isolated incidents in order to show how rotten a regime is is fraught and not worth pursuing, which I did actually say if you read my post. As for your "fact," care to provide us evidence for the incident chapter and verse or do we take your word for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 09:22 AM

"Yikes, these bizarre attempts to draw spurious equivalence smacks of desperation."
No they don't - it shows practical examples of State oppression by a State that has blockaded another country, as distinct from unqualified accusations of oppression.
The crushing of Civil Rights Demonstrations around the time when the Castro Govenment was just beginning and the McCarthy Trials, still happening in the U.S., just four years before the Batista Regime was overthrown, are undisputed breaches of Human Rights, yet the Government which was responsible for them can blockade a state for - abusing Human Rights
A bleedin' joke, in anyone's book
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 10:32 AM

Jim,
To be honest Keith - I would much rather take my own personal experience and a lifelong interest on the subject to a hastily sought out cut-n-paste from Wiki

I want through that wall without difficulty - on a train - it was no different and probably a damn sight easier that if I wanted to fly from Shannon to America

How often did you come under fire leaving Shannon for US. Well done for surviving.
Were many killed, mutilated and maimed by land mines and directional mines on the fence?
Did you see large numbers of your fellow travellers dragged off to long terms of incarceration?

I suspect than as an idealistic young communist visiting the communist world you saw what you wanted and expected to see, and ignored the unpleasant fact that the people had to be prevented from fleeing it.

"Those caught in the act were often tried for espionage as well and given proportionately harsher sentences.[130] More than 75,000 people – an average of more than seven people a day – were imprisoned for attempting to escape across the border,"

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 11:28 AM

you saw what you wanted and expected to see
Rather like you do to an unprecedented degree, Professor, usually in the face of conclusive evidence to the contrary..

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 11:36 AM

"I suspect than as an idealistic young communist visiting the communist world you saw what you wanted and expected to see, and ignored the unpleasant fact that the people had to be prevented from fleeing it."
Ho ****** dare you
You come up with a load of unqualified shit, produce a cut-n'-paste from Wiki and accuse mme of lying
Who on earth said I was a young communist - I most certainly didn't.
You are a braindead right-wing propaganda swallower who refused to respond to documented evidence and trot out Cold-War bullshit
Plenty of evidence for that and a recod as long as your arm
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 12:00 PM

You've a right cheek Jim, complaining about Keith adding 2+2 and making 4, when you do it continuously and come up with the figure 5.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 12:23 PM

People are dancing around the argument I'm making that if you see various parties as equivalent then anything they do in pursuit of their aims is 'ok'. (The school bully is simply making the small kid punch himself because he has a right to feel good, too).

If Israel is equivalent to the DDR, then their walls are a wash. Some people get ahead, some get hurt, it's all the same. The fact that they each have motives is greater than what the motives actually are. The fact that they are each trying to preserve their society is more important than the facts OF the society. And that goes for Cuba, too, apparently.

I'm saying that it's NOT THE SAME.

Extending this argument one can argue the British built concentration camps and interned Boers. The Americans built camps and interned Japanese U.S. citizens. The Germans built concentration camps and interned Jews, Communists, Gypsies, Homosexuals et. al. The Russians built an extensive Gulag system and interned a host of people for a host of reasons (including none). Each event has its own justifications from the point of view of the constructor. Each is controversial.

I'm saying that the United States, the Soviet Union, Great Britain, and Nazi Germany were still NOT THE SAME just 'cause they all built camps.

That was my original intent on responding to Joe Offer's post of 02 Dec 16 - 09:34 PM . That is why I responded against Joe's statement (in italics):

"Both Israel and the DDR could argue that they needed their walls for basic survival, and that's a valid argument. The Castro regime could argue the same for restricting emigration from Cuba."
I responded:
"With your third paragraph, I think you have either walked or stumbled badly into equivalency."


The posts since then have NOT addressed explicitly whether these nations are equivalent or not. I say they're not, which is the basis of my arguments.

If you think they are equivalent, that is the unstated basis of your argument.

The successive posting and the to-ing and fro-ing back and froth are fruitless until you address the main point.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Dec 16 - 12:43 PM

" Keith adding 2+2 and making 4,"
Keith said what he said and I don't make things up - as I have now shown of the Brexit thread
Talk about making things up
"and seemed to do it with a diligence and zeal that defies description."
Therre is no evidence this ever happened.
One minute the soldiers are automatons obeying orders and the next they are howling monsters enjoying killing their fellow citizens - who says so
It is the Brits in Ireland after Bloody Sunday who were found to have had drunken parties celebrating their kills and hanging souvenirs on the barrack walls
"I'm saying that it's NOT THE SAME."
No point saying it if you are not prepared top prove it - why is it not the same?
And yes - the Brits invented concentration camps in South Africa - so what - were they any less reprehensible for doing so
The British record in that war was appalling
The Americans still have one for untried suspects - and they have a reputation for torture - waterboarding, sleep deprivation, mock executions - we've seen the photos from Camp X-Ray - why are these acceptable?
Why are massacres like Kenbt State - or the McCarthy Trials, or the treatment of blacks sending their kids to white schools or trying to vote?
And where is your evidence that any of these shooting downs has an equivalence in Cuba?
You have been given a summing up of East Germany - where is your response
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:15 AM

Jim Carroll - 04 Dec 16 - 12:43 PM

1: I don't make things up - as I have now shown of the Brexit thread

What you have more or less conclusively shown on the Brexit thread was that you do distort what has been stated and that you do make things up

2: Talk about making things up
"and seemed to do it with a diligence and zeal that defies description." - Teribus
Therre is no evidence this ever happened.

Disagree completely the statistics detailing the numbers killed, arrested and imprisoned for attempting to flee, not to mention those imprisoned for plotting to flee is more than ample evidence to back up my statement.

3: the Brits invented concentration camps in South Africa

MYTH. They were first used by the Spanish in 1873 in Cuba during the Ten Years War as a means of quelling a rebellion and again in Cuba in 1896 during the Cuban War of Independence - Matter of historical record. The strategy was adopted by the British in South Africa against the Boers in 1900.

4: As far as you are concerned Jim "The British record" on anything is appalling.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:47 AM

That meant sometthing I am sure Teibus
Whatyou will find on The Brexit thread is a huge list of examples of your abusive and insulting behaviour to those who deem to agree with you.
Can't help but notice you are now making an effort to not add to it - but should you lapse - those examples will be added to the list.
You will also fingd your mate, having called me a liar, as you just have, and being proved a liar himself with a huge string of examples of what he claimed I made up.
I don't tell lies - I don't see the poing of doing so on a debate forum - only a few of you are here to score points and win prizes, the rest of us are here to pass on what we think we know and hopefully to learn more.
I have no idea why you personally are here - you add little other than a bad taste and an impression of an insecure and arrogant little man.
Now - if you wish to prove anything I have said about Cuba is wrong, please do so - as far as anything you have just said, you have had ample enough time to prove them and haven't managed to do so, so far, so let's move on and not be cluttering this discussion up with personal arguments - waddy'a say?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:00 AM

"I don't tell lies"

Oh yes you most certainly do Carroll - Examples:

1: "No Poppies for me" Thread, where you were exposed telling lies.

2: "Syria: the new nightmare" Thread where you were exposed telling lies.

Note on the Brexit thread where you listed a number of posts by Akenaton you forgot to tag them to your posts where you distorted what had been said in order to back up your rather delusional views.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:03 AM

A reminder
"every time you mention the name Woodcock I know I've got through to you and you are getting rattled.""
Oh yes you most certainly do Carroll
It will remind everyone that you are truly clueless and gormless to an astounding degree.
"Got the point now Shaw"
Probably because Carroll
Really Carroll
Keep floundering about Carroll
So all in all Christmas
For JOM:
Christmas
No need for reminders JOM I have nothing but the utmost contempt for you and everything you stand for. Not many humans wander this planet without one single redeeming feature - you seem to have managed that without even trying.
The Truth according to JOM - thick as shit and proud of it
I will repeat IT YET AGAIN FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE AMONG US WHO ARE TOO BLOODY THICK TO UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH (i.e. YOU RAGGY)
"complete and utter buffoon"
"That by the way THICKO "
"clueless ignoramus of truly astounding degree"
"Carroll"
"Have you found an echo JOM?"
Or have you always wandered through life making a complete and utter JOM-like CUNT of yourself?
Carroll
"Here is a link for you Jom:"
"By the way JOM"
"how boastful a man can get doesn't it JOM?"
"Don't worry JOM"

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:03 AM

Jim,
You are a braindead right-wing propaganda swallower

We have been asked to refrain from personal abuse. I do, why can't you?

who refused to respond to documented evidence

What "documented evidence?"

and trot out Cold-War bullshit

Apart from young starry eyed communist dreamers who never grew up, everyone knows the things I referred to are facts.

Which of them do you deny Jim?

Here is the Wiki page I quoted.
All the quotes are authenticated.
On the whole page there is only one "citation required" and that is on a photograph.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:31 AM

Sorry, forgot the link.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border#Escape_attempts_and_victims_of_the_inner_German_border

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:36 AM

"We have been asked to refrain from personal abuse. "
Then stop insulting our intelligence
Your repetitios behaviour and your refusal to responfd to what is put up makes you what I described you are - not an analysis based on your behaviour
Repeating things over and over again and ignoring ansers is a long established technique with you - in cricket, it's known as 'stone-walling'
If you have any argument with what I have put up, argue with it and stop pretending it's not there.
"What "documented evidence?"
I've just told you what and asked you to respond to is several time - see wwhat I mean - pretending it's not there?
If you are not interested in responding to it - fine - I'm not interested in responding to you.
"the things I referred to are facts."
Based on personal experience and decades of reading, they bear no resemblance to fact
"starry eyed communist dreamers "
If you don't want to be insulted - stop insulting others - you've already described me as this once and I have refuted it
Nothing on Wiki is authenticated - that is the nature of Wiki - it is based on opinions, sometimes authoritative, but often not.
It is idiotic to suggest you can sum up the history of a State or a number of States with one page of script - that's comic-book research.
It's just as idiotic that, because something is 'authenticated' on Wiki, it is proven - it simply means that it is referenced to someone
Do you believe there is a Wiki-fairy whose job it is to check everything that is put up?
Jaysus - it's like believing in a god you can't see.
Now - argue on the basis of what I have said here (without insults) or we're done here.
In the light of the entire study of Eastern European history, what you have put up so far is 'Cold War Bullshit' - the subject really is more complicated than a page of Wiki
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 06:57 AM

"What "documented evidence?"
THIS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 07:45 AM

By the way Keith -
"The 900 mile wall across Germany"
The Berlin Wall was 155 km (96 mi) - maybe you should send Wiki a new tape measure!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 08:00 AM

THIS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE

Lol......it's a blog post by a brain dead, extremist, regressive leftist apologist for dictators of repressive regimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 08:40 AM

".it's a blog post by a brain dead, extremist, regressive leftist apologist for dictators of repressive regimes."
Anybody to the left of Hitler or Netanyahu the Yahoo fits that description as far as you are concerned Bobad.
It's actually a detailed researched article by a Canadian researcher - but I quite realise that such people aren't included in your world of freedom of speech.
Answer his points or butt out, seems to be the appropriate response to a serial troll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 08:55 AM

It's actually a detailed researched article by a Canadian researcher.....one who believes Kim Jong-un is misunderstood......lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 09:12 AM

Exiled writer Zoé Valdés on the Most Terrible Things About Life Under Castro

"Immediately afterwards I began to remember all the people who died in exile, as well as all of the people he murdered," she said. "And then my thoughts turned to his victims."

"My family told me, 'You must not repeat at school what you hear at home about Castro,'" she recalled. "And it was something that really left an impression on me because at home my mother and grandmother were against Castro, but at school everything that I heard was pro-Castro. So from a very early age I was taught two opposing ways of speaking and two opposing value systems."

"I learned that if I thought differently (from the government's party line) I was not to say it or to express it, and to be discreet,"

"The thing that was worse than the fear itself, was the acceptance of the fear and the way living in fear became a normal part of daily life," she said. "That was the most terrible thing."

"The internal repression against dissidents and artists is still the same," she said. "I think with Raúl Castro it will continue as before. After which his children will take over the regime, plus the military is still there. So it is difficult to say that things will change immediately."

The Daily Beast

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 09:26 AM

"one who believes Kim Jong-un is misunderstood......lol."
So what Bobad?
The author has put together a number of facts and rationised them into an article that makes sense rather than the empty rhetoric you lot come up with
Coming from sombody who screams "antisemitism" every time anybody criticises a fascist regime, your argument rings somewhat hollow
I have no knowledge of Kim Jong-un whatsoever and would never pass an opinion on him until I had, but, as with every other leader that does not serve western interests, I would not go to opponents of a system to fill the gap - the waves of ignorance on Cuba confirm the folly of that.
If you disagree with the arguments put forward, provide alternatives.
You are the only people who rely totally on the opinions of others without providing knowledge of your own.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:04 AM

Totalitarianism of the left or totalitarianism of the right are both totalitarianism. It's where the extremists of the left meet and shake hands with those of the right, the only difference being the hymn book from which they sing.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:07 AM

Jim Carroll - 05 Dec 16 - 07:45 AM

By the way Keith -
"The 900 mile wall across Germany"
The Berlin Wall was 155 km (96 mi) - maybe you should send Wiki a new tape measure!!

By the way Jim the 155 km of wall you refer to as the Berlin Wall was only one part of the 900 mile wall that was built to imprison the population of the DDR.

By the way Jim the one thing you didn't mention whilst on your travels. Did you ever have to sit on the floor of a train because of the countless thousands of oppressed people fleeing from the "west" to that "Workers Paradise" that was the DDR? The most under reported mass immigration in history.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:07 AM

Once again, you are putting up unqualified opinions without putting them into context.
America put Cuba under a state of Siege for fifty years, during that period, the U.S. was waging a war on a Third World peasant country which brought about between 1,450,000, and 3,595,000 deaths
Why moralise about one and ignore the other - America was involved in both?
Whatever did and didn't happen in Cuba was caused by the circumstances imposed on it from outside, not from internal tyranny.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:24 AM

"900 mile wall that was built to imprison the population of the DDR."
All natioional borders are prisons in that case.#
Keith taked about the wall which was, as I said, 96 miles long, he said it was to imprison the whole of eastern Europe - you appear to have adjusted that to the population of the D.D.R. - both are fantaised crap, of course.
Don't know where the "Workers Paradise" earned its quotation marks - not from me.
More made up Teribus crap.
"The most under reported mass immigration in history."
I would have though the estimated 7.2 million Palestinian refugees merited that title, by far.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:30 AM

THESE ARE THE ACTUAL RATHER THAN THE MADE UP FIGURES
Not unreported at all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 10:31 AM

America put Cuba under a state of Siege for fifty years

Again, no matter how often you keep repeating it there was no siege. You are just lying to justify totalitarian oppression.

Whatever did and didn't happen in Cuba was caused by the circumstances imposed on it from outside, not from internal tyranny.

Again I quote from Solidarity: (an independent socialist organization dedicated to forming a broad regrouping of the U.S. left.)

"despite the strenuous efforts of the U.S. government, Cuba has not been isolated from most of the rest of the globe. The main causes of Cuba's poverty must surely be domestic."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 11:07 AM

Jim Carroll- re your link to:

"What "documented evidence?"
THIS DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE
Jim Carroll"

How that brought me back to the 'good' ol' days of The Cold War. Indeed, we are in the territory of "The God That Failed", and "Darkness at Noon" and of course, the still valid "1984".

The Gowan piece, to which you link, is a screed justifying the "Dictatorship OVER the Proletariat" that was Communist Eastern Europe. It seeks to humanize and justify the Eastern German nation-state that existed from Post-War to 1989.

The elephant in the room unseen was, of course, terror. The Stalinist imposition of imposed thought patterns under threat of death of oneself, one's loved ones, or both. From Stalin's point of view, it was simply survival. This is the case of ultimate equivalency: Stalin's survival as important as Roosevelt's for instance. It is understandable- from Stalin's point of view. It led to the killing of millions of people across the U.S.S.R. and Eastern Europe, and the sending of other millions to the Gulags and various institutions, including of course, in a less lethal environment, in the 70s, mental institutions because if you were loco enough to oppose the state, certainly you must be mentally challenged.

Unfortunately for those who accept Gowan's article as anything other than a self-justifying screed, I remember Communism and Communists. They were not unlike the racists of the Nazis in that they set up a self-justifying philosophy that supplanted reality by using their own version of Orwellian Newspeak. I'll never forget one professor at my university explaining to me that the failures of the U.S.S.R. were not due to Communism being imperfect, but that the Russians trying to implement it were.

Jim Carroll you have been right about one thing, this is become a cold war back-and-forth. Whatever language you choose to indulge in, you have swallowed the principle of equivalency which I reject. There is no need for name calling. This is our point of difference. I think this applies to our difference in the Middle East as well. We are using a different set of basic standards and, like the impossibility of squaring the circle using nothing but a straight-edge and a compass, we will not be able to agree.

Thank you for populating your threads with enough clarity and references to make this clear to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 11:38 AM

Then why not simply dismantle the points he raises
It really doesnt get more complicated than that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 12:15 PM

Nothing on Wiki is authenticated - that is the nature of Wiki - it is based on opinions,

Wrong Jim. The little blue numbers relate to the source of the information.
Every fact given there has a source provided.

By the way Keith -
"The 900 mile wall across Germany"
The Berlin Wall was 155 km (96 mi) - maybe you should send Wiki a new tape measure!!

Wrong again Jim.
The wall around Berlin was indeed 96 miles, and the wall across the whole of Germany was another 866 miles.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 12:22 PM

Jim, your link "This documented evidence" is no such thing.
It is just an opinion piece by someone called Stephen Gowans, and it contradicts nothing factual I posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 12:36 PM

Not now Keith, I'll play with you later.
This gets more and more stupid
All this dates back to 1917 - nothing to do with repressing or enlsaving people - why the **** should it have?
You have two political systems in conflict - one based on profit and acquisition, the other put in to motion to end that system.
New Communism was considered an enemy of world capitalism and from the Russian Revolution onward every effort was made to crush it, even to the extent of welcoming the rise of German Fascism as "A BULWARK AGAINST BOLSHEVISM "
A PRAGMATIC approach was adopted by the West as it had its uses.
Castro brought Bolshevism to the doorstep of the U.S. - the U.S. was the forst to accept him, but dropped him as soon as they found he was not prepared to be another puppet.
From day one of the Cuban Revolution, America was the aggressor - in it's own interests, as little to do with the freedom of the Cuban people as was the support the U.S. gave to despots throughout Souuth and Latin America - Haiti's Doc Duvalier was one of America's favorite despots.
Try dealing with those facts instead of Cold War sterotyping
"and the wall across the whole of Germany was another 866 miles."
There was no other "wall" Keith
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 12:39 PM

"Pragmatic approach to the Berlin Wall" of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:00 PM

Somementioned the shortage of soap in Cuba earlier

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:02 PM

Whoops - again!
Someone mentioned the shortahe of soap in Cuba earlier
TRY THIS FOR "SHORTAGE"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:21 PM

An interesting statistic.
U.S. citizens below poverty line -14.5% (no blockade)
Cuban citizens below poverty line - 1.5% (50 year blockade)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:34 PM

(50 year blockade)

Bullshit - no such thing - more Carroll Made Up Shit®

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:37 PM

50 YEAR BLOCKADE
NO BLOCKADE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:50 PM

Like I said no blockade just more Carroll Made Up Shit®

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 01:52 PM

Again I quote from Solidarity: (an independent socialist organization dedicated to forming a broad regrouping of the U.S. left.)

"despite the strenuous efforts of the U.S. government, Cuba has not been isolated from most of the rest of the globe. The main causes of Cuba's poverty must surely be domestic."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 02:22 PM

Opinions are like arseholes, Bubo.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 02:57 PM

"The negative impact of the embargo is pervasive
in the social, economic and environmental
dimensions of human development in Cuba,
severely affecting the most vulnerable socioeconomic
groups of the Cuban population."
Office of the Resident Co-ordinator of the United Nations system for operational activities for development, July 2008.29
United Nations
AMNESTY REPORT
ILLEGALITY of BLOCKADE "

ERADICATION of POVERTY in CUBA
POVERTY GAP in U.S.
"Like I said no blockade just more Carroll Made Up Shit®"
Tell it to the United Nations and Amnesty
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:45 PM

I have had enough of this shit.

The Batista regime sold the people of Cuba to the Mafia or left them to starve on the streets. It oppressed, imprisoned, executed, and otherwise dispossessed and killed to a greater extent than the Castro regime. Remember the "10 to 1" order that Batista gave? If your measure of legitimacy is simply the alleged "oppression" the Castro regime was at least no worse and probably better than the Batista regime.

The people who fled Cuba were those who had, prior to the successful and popularly supported Cuban rebellion, oppressed the ordinary Cuban. Many went straight back into US mafia organisations or clones thereof. As Castro said - those he executed were the criminals who deserved execution.

On the other hand, Castro gave Cuba freedom from starvation, freedom from homelessness, freedom from illiteracy, and health. A damned good deal for Cuba. And a similar revolution would be a damned good deal for the USA and the UK, where the oligolists conspire to starve and exterminate the less advantaged.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 03:45 PM

*oligopolists*. Where is the that "edit" button?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:09 PM

So one gangster replaced another gangster and became a whore to the Soviet Union gangsters instead of the US gangsters.....whoop de effin' doo.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Dec 16 - 04:13 PM

You are clueless and out of your depth, bobad.