BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 10:53 PM

Simple I just imagine I'am an aging brain damaged republican.
-----

Interesting! I think the same thing about some bleeding heart liberals.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:01 PM

Looks like you studied at the Gareth Williams Institute for Advanced Debating Skills (GWIADS for short)

   Nope. ;-)

They CAN also be classified as innocent civilians

   Absolutely; providing they are inocent

And I wish they would stop taking 9 posts to say it

   Unfortunely; there is so much bilge claiming to be fact; it took 9
   posts yo do it.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:05 PM

Is it OK if we rub your nose in it 2 Bears, when your theories fall flat on their face?
-----

Absolutely! If I misquote; or make mistakes in my debating; they deserve to be pointed out so not to confuse others.

Are you willing to be put through the same treatment?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:07 PM

What exactly have I claimed?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:26 PM

You sure that isn't Two Beers? Or possibly Running Mouth?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:29 PM

The published word is no respector of sobriety

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:37 PM

You sure that isn't Two Beers? Or possibly Running Mouth?

   Greg: Your comment proves that you can not debate the issues
   fairly; so you have to use insults.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 08 May 04 - 11:40 PM

"Your comment proves that you can not debate the issues ..."

Neither can you, Two_bears..... well you haven't done so yet, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 04 - 01:04 AM

It is sometimes useful to have some idea what you are talking about before you start talking. There are a number of Geneva Conventions. Among these are different ones that apply to civilians and to POWs. Two bears, since you insist that these "detainees" are not POWs, I suggest that you look at Article 6 of the civilian convention, which specifically states that Articles 3(1)(a) and (c) apply to this situation. (a) forbids cruel treatment and torture and (c) bans "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment." Both the US and Iraq are signators, BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 09 May 04 - 01:47 AM

from the Oxford English Dictionary:

Torture (2). Severe excurciating pain or suffering of body or mind; anguish, agony, torment.

Perhaps some have lost the capacity to comprehend or speak the English language?

Comprehend (2). To grasp with the mind, take in. ME. (3). To apprehend with the senses, esp. sight.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 09 May 04 - 02:46 PM

It is sometimes useful to have some idea what you are talking about before you start talking. There are a number of Geneva Conventions. Among these are different ones that apply to civilians and to POWs. Two bears, since you insist that these "detainees" are not POWs, I suggest that you look at Article 6 of the civilian convention, which specifically states that Articles 3(1)(a) and (c) apply to this situation. (a) forbids cruel treatment and torture and (c) bans "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment." Both the US and Iraq are signators, BTW.
-----

   Most of the attacks against the Iraqi civilians, and Iraqi police,
   and U.S, military; are caused by foreign fighters from Syria,
   Jordan, and assorted terrorists.

   How should they be categorized?

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 04 - 03:09 PM

"The people in that prison had ALL tried to kill U.S. Soldiers and Iraqi civilians."

That simply is not true. Clearly whatever sources you have been reading have failed to give you an accurate picture. The people in that prison are people who have been picked up for a number of reasons. Some appear to have been pulled in more or less at random, because the people whom the arresting party had gone out to get were not there when they got there, and they didn't want to return empty-handed. In some cases, after being held in terrible conditions, the people pulled in have been released without any kind of charge, let alone any kind of trial.

This isn't a matter of controversy. It has been reported in the whole range of media in this country (England), and no doubt in most countries.

.....................

Once again. All prisoners are entitled to be kept under reasonable basic conditions, and that includes adequate sleep, food, clothing and shelter. All prisoners - prisoners of war, civilians, criminals, hostages, soldiers or guards awaiting court martial, the lot.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 04 - 03:11 PM

Granted, if only for the sake of discussion, that this is correct, the Civilian Convention states the following:

Art. 3(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

In other words, once thay are placed hors de combat by detention, they are entitled to all of the protections of the convention.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,M'Grath of Altcar
Date: 09 May 04 - 03:17 PM

It's double speak. Typical of the nonsense that is being flushed out of Bush & Bliar's mouths.

   War criminals lied at Nuremburg too.

Damn their eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 May 04 - 04:00 PM

" Most of the attacks against the Iraqi civilians, and Iraqi police,
   and U.S, military; are caused by foreign fighters from Syria,
   Jordan, and assorted terrorists.

   "How should they be categorized?" --Two Bears

As human beings, and as innocent until proven guilty.

As an American, I believe these are inalienable rights, no matter what the Geneva Convention or any other set of rules says.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 09 May 04 - 04:21 PM

If they are not POWS, they are civilians and are innocent until proven guilty.

Two Bears doesn't seem to understand that subjecting human beings to degradation is unnaceptable to civilized people.

Two Bears commented: "Lots of children was abused. I sure was."

I think that Two Bears needs to realize that that this is not normal.
I'm sorry it happened to you Two Bears. It wasn't your fault. You need to get some help.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 09 May 04 - 04:47 PM

Two_bears : 09 May 04 - 02:46 PM

"assorted terrorists"

How many of them do you get for a penny?
10?

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 09 May 04 - 06:22 PM

Err Jim - What makes you think that you can debate the issues ?

Or is your ideal of a good debate one in which everybody agrees with your prejudices ?

Gareth.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 09 May 04 - 07:22 PM

Can you give me some example of these prejudices that I am supposed to have, Gareth?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 May 04 - 09:52 PM

'In Detroit, which has the biggest concentrations of Arabs outside the Middle East, neither the Free Press nor the News ran the torture photos.
USA Today, the largest U.S. general circulation daily paper, published thumbnail-size photos of 116 U.S. soldiers killed during April on its front page, and bypassed the Iraq photos entirely.'


http://www.atheistnetwork.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1853

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 09 May 04 - 10:42 PM

Well, these are pretty graphic for a family newspaper. A brief look at the Free Press's website would show that the abuse issue is being covered very well. (www.freep.com)   The on-line edition of USA Today shows pictures that my local paper wouldn't, for that very reason.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:45 AM

I'm not so sure it's good to insist on the word "torture." Torture is an emotionally-charged word. I suppose "abuse" has an emotional impact, but it's not as strong. If you portray "torture" as appalling, are you implying that "abuse" is not?

When we decry injustice, I think it is imperative that we avoid the use of emotionally-charged words. Pure logic is our best weapon in defense of justice.

I don't care what the reason - it's not humane to mistreat a prisoner for any reason, no matter how compelling your need to obtain information. The conduct of the U.S. personnel was appalling, and it makes me ashamed to be an American.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 04 - 01:07 AM

Don't forget, there have been several homicides involved. That should qualify as torture.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 10 May 04 - 01:45 AM

OK. Sadam Hussein's regime did not torture prisoners, they abused them. Chile, under Pinochet's government did not use torture, they abused their citizens. It wasn't exactly torture that took place in Argentina, it was abuse. And the Spanish Inquisition abused suspected heritics in order to obtain information from them.

I now stand disabused of my previous perceptions. You are right, the word "torture" is emotionally charged, but sometimes one needs a jolt to get real.   

Please don't be ashamed to be an American, Joe, there are those in the world that recognize the wonderful humanity of the American people too. Abuse of authority and power occurs in all countires, including my own and probably always will, as long as it is allowed to be hidden under rocks and couched in sanitized terms.

What makes the US special in some regards is that a lot of Americans have always had the courage to stick their necks out and examine their own dirty laundry in public. That it one of the things that I admire about the American people.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:25 AM

"The people in that prison had ALL tried to kill U.S. Soldiers and Iraqi civilians" (two bears)

Further to my comment to the effect that this claim just is not true -this is what General Taguba had to say in his official report. Here's a relevant quote from Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB:

"A lack of proper screening also meant that many innocent Iraqis were wrongly being detained—indefinitely, it seemed, in some cases. The Taguba study noted that more than sixty per cent of the civilian inmates at Abu Ghraib were deemed not to be a threat to society, which should have enabled them to be released. Karpinski's defense, Taguba said, was that her superior officers "routinely" rejected her recommendations regarding the release of such prisoners.

The New Yorker coverage of this is the one from which most of the rest of the media stories appear to take their starting point.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 04 - 10:39 AM

Two Bears is a great guy, and a good friend of mine, but he's a bit addled when it comes to politics...in my opinion. :-) This is the result of having grown up as a Republican, in all probability. While being tremendously liberal (meaning flexible and open-minded) about most subjects, he rails against "bleeding heart liberals" when it comes to politics. This is ironical.

People's views about reality generally get set very early in life, so if one grows up in a circumstance where "conservatives" are seen as good guys and "liberals" are seen as bad guys...well, one just keeps on seeing it that way.

So, you can expect to continue disagreeing with Two Bears on politics.

The News Media are now reporting that 70 to 90 % of the Iraqi prisoners were wrongfully arrested, in that they never posed a threat to coalition forces in the first place, nor had they made any attack on coalition forces.

The coalition doesn't have enough soldiers on the ground to properly police Iraq, its soldiers are inadequately trained and lack experience, and they have been pre-conditioned by several years of propaganda to hate Muslims. The fact that they then arrest the wrong people, imprison the wrong people, and commit atrocities on those prisoners is really almost inevitable. The particular degree and nature of their acts, however, is inexcusable...just as it was in Vietnam. They should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. They are a hostile occupying force on land that does not belong to them, and can certainly expect further resistance...until they leave.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:59 AM

It's one thing to have a different opinion about how facts should be interpreted - but it's a different thing to make a completely false statement, like the one from "Two bears" that I quoted. (""The people in that prison had ALL tried to kill U.S. Soldiers and Iraqi civilians"") I assume this was not an intentional lie, but that he hadn't checked up on the facts, as contained in that official report by General Taguba.

I am aware that some mainstream media may have printed stories that misinformed him on this important point - but what with Google and so forth, it doesn't take very long to check up on that kind of stuff, and identify more reliable sources of information.

Obviously we can't all agree. There are clearly a lot of people who share "Two bear's" view of the situation, so it's a good thing thta the Mudcat provides a space where we can explore our differences in a courteous way. But, as the saying goes "Comment is free, but facts are sacred".

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:07 PM

It was an impression he had, McGrath. That impression my have been garnered from something he read or heard somewhere else, as you suggest. Quite probably.

Yes, facts are sacred, but here's the weird thing about facts: People usually only notice the facts they are inclined to look for in the first place, and they will allow those facts, and only those, to back up their established opinions. They will fail to notice, discount, or deny other facts and say that those other facts are rumour, hearsay, fabrications, lies, misconceptions, irrelevant, beside the point, etc...

And we all do it. Except maybe Mr Spock or Data from Star Trek. :-)

Given the fact that there are always more facts available than anyone can keep track of AND that the news media are themselves prejudiced in regard to which facts they deem worthy of reporting and which should be ignored...we are all operating on only part of the facts!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 12:13 PM

Being selective about facts is one way to deceive other people and to deceive oursleves, and we all do it. But we can at least try to avoid stating as facts things which are demonstrably false.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 10 May 04 - 01:03 PM

Try Here Jim, its argument Jim, but not as we know it !

"Subject: RE: BS: Scott Ritter:Kerry also to blame for war
From: Jim McCallan - PM
Date: 15 Feb 04 - 09:18 PM

One of the better things you have to do, Gareth, obviously does not include contributing anything of moment to the conversations you embroil yourself in.

From the limited time I have been reading your drivel, I would put a mental age on you, of about 13.

I can plainly see that some of the concepts discussed in these threads go miles over your head, and you contradict yourself continually.

I hope I said that politely "

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 02:23 PM

Quoting a PM in an argument on a thread? I'm sure there's a decree against that somewhere. If not, there should be.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:09 PM

Excellent quote, Gareth.

Don't see anything about prejudice in there, though.
Just me telling you that you are not up to discussing some of the conversations in these threads; something to do with your prejudices keeping you back, I should think.

You see, it takes away from the discussion at hand, when people have to continually jump in and correct you, Gareth. Your facts are often wrong; you misquote people, and it is tedium to have to go back and keep on correcting you. It is, actually...
You don't seem to pay attention to much of the content that some people contribute to this forum, and your first line of defence always seems to consist of questioning the intelligence of your interlocutor, or as you have so inexcusably done above when you called somebody 'brain-damaged' If you spent a bit more time actually reading others' posts, and 'formulating' what you are going to say, I think I might respect you a bit better that I presently do.

You have changed your position about this war in Iraq, since I first started reading your posts. I think you know this yourself, as well.
That is good, for if there is one thing that this kind of a discussion forum is good for, it is to make people think about positions they hold, and the relevancy of them as time travels on. Hence the spake that 'you are learning'

Don't look for demons everywhere you go, and try and be a bit kinder to those who don't agree with you. The '13year old drivel' that I was referring to in that post,as you know very well was me reacting to your ridiculous (and criminal suggestion), that you would without question kill your children if you thought they would grow up to be another Saddam Hussein.

That is not the kind of thing I would even joke about, Gareth, and the printed word, on this forum, defines one.
I didn't 'know' you long when you made that remark, and I really had second thoughts about informing the people you are also as vocal in representing here; the Caerphilly Labour Party, about some of your 'final solutions'.

Where on Earth do you think you are?
This isn't a game we're playing here, Gareth, certainly not for me; a game where the person with the snappiest 'fuck off' line 'wins'

I have no doubt that behind all your hang-ups, you probably are quite politically astute.
You choose not to go that way, however.
Instead quite a lot of us have to stop our train of thought to 'wipe your arse' every once in a while, and as I said above, that can be quite tedious.

Another thing I could do, of course, is to ignore you in future. I am under no obligation to even acknowlege you on this forum, never mind respond to your "Errrr Jim's.... " Because if you can't grasp the concepts that are being thrown open for discussion, here, well then why the devil should I waste my precious time 'correcting' you?
It is not the reason I come to this forum.

To make sure you do not misunderstand me, again, please keep this quote in your notebook, Gareth:
I BELIEVE IN JUSTICE FOR ALL!

Have you got that, now?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:16 PM

Hello Kevin.
Gareth wasn't quoting a PM; I have never communicated privately with the man. (although I did have one quite sinister PM from him, after I made that post)

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:32 PM

Lets get back on track, did anyone see Blair on Channel 4 News tonight, John Snow`s line of questioning had him waffling when he was asked, did he intend to question the visiting Chinese Prime Minister on Human Rights. The answer was incomprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:52 PM

Bot a PM? I misread the post. I'm glad about that. Gareth can be a pugnacious vilain at times, but generally a fair one.

I think we sometimes build up a mental picture of people we tangle with on these threads which doesn't really match reality. And sometimes people play up to misunderstandigs like that, in a way that reinforces the misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:53 PM

Not a PM? I misread the post. I'm glad about that. Gareth can be a pugnacious villain at times, but generally a fair one.

I think we sometimes build up a mental picture of people we tangle with on these threads which doesn't really match reality. And sometimes people play up to misunderstandigs like that, in a way that reinforces the misunderstanding.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 04 - 04:17 PM

Absolutely, McGrath. I used to picture Clinton Hammond as a raving lunatic with a military crewcut, who opened cans of Budweiser with his teeth while gnawing on bones and raw, bloody meat from half-dead animals. I was agreeably surprised to find out that he is actually worse than that in real life... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 10 May 04 - 04:46 PM

Quite a tirade from Jim - One point I think I should make that "(although I did have one quite sinister PM from him, after I made that post)" and as I made it I think it is in order to quote directly "No chum, over yer head !" No what is sinister about that ?? Perhaps you could tell us all. If you took that as a threat then I appologise. I don't make threats.

I question your statement "Your facts are often wrong; you misquote people, and it is tedium to have to go back and keep on correcting you." Please elucidate !

My facts tend to be accurate - Even if unpopular in some quarters. What you are overlooking is that I tend to raise matters which some consensuses would prefer I do not.

I appreciate that you state that "I BELIEVE IN JUSTICE FOR ALL!" Perhaps you could grant that to other people.

BTW - My views on Iraq are simple. I believe that on balence the decicion to intervene was correct. I am concerned that there appears to be a lack of a coherent exit statedgy - No plan B !

I am very concerned that there appears to be a brakdown of disipline amoungst elements, and I will put it no greater or lesser than that, in the Armed Forces giving rise to acusations of torture.

I do not take the view, expressed in some quarters, of a Knee Jerk reaction that everything The US of A / Uk does is automatically bad.

Perhaps you should put that in your notebook.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:37 PM

As human beings, and as innocent until proven guilty.
----

But that was not the answer to the question asked.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:40 PM

Example:
"I appreciate that you state that "I BELIEVE IN JUSTICE FOR ALL!"
One sentence later you say:
"Perhaps you could grant that to other people."

I give up, Gareth....

I will only reply to you on a 'need to' basis from now on...

That's for the notebook, too....

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:47 PM

If they are not POWS, they are civilians and are innocent until proven guilty.
-----

   Maybe they were foreign fighters coming in from Syria, Iran, and
   Jordan.

-----
Two Bears doesn't seem to understand that subjecting human beings to degradation is unnaceptable to civilized people.
-----

   I do understand it, and I said it was shameful the way they were
   treated.

----
Two Bears commented: "Lots of children was abused. I sure was."
I think that Two Bears needs to realize that that this is not normal.
I'm sorry it happened to you Two Bears. It wasn't your fault. You need to get some help.
-----

   I know the abuse I received was not my fault.
   I do not need help.

   I understand that some of these schools run by some of the
   mosques, and turn normal healthy children into cold blooded
   killers, and instructed to blow themself up to kill the infidels.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:56 PM

"Maybe they were foreign fighters coming in from Syria, Iran, and Jordan.

Not the thieves and the 'common criminals'
They're just Iraqis, Two_bears.
You can't put everyone under the category 'enemy combatants'

You would complain if they did it to you.
Why can you not complain when they do it to the least of your bretheren?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:05 PM

Two Bears is a great guy, and a good friend of mine, but he's a bit

   Thanks for the kind words LH; my brother

addled when it comes to politics...in my opinion. :-) This is the

   Opinions vary.

People's views about reality generally get set very early in life, so if one grows up in a circumstance where "conservatives" are seen as good guys and "liberals" are seen as bad guys...well, one just keeps on seeing it that way.

   Not quite LH.

The coalition doesn't have enough soldiers on the ground to properly police Iraq, its soldiers are inadequately trained and lack

   I will agree completely. They also need real soldiers instead of
   the weekend warrior (national guard) that were trying to run that
   prison.

experience, and they have been pre-conditioned by several years of propaganda to hate Muslims. The fact that they then arrest the wrong

   That is not so. In Bosnia; the U.S army were protecting the
   muslims from the Serbs.

They should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. They are a hostile occupying force on land that does not belong to them, and can certainly expect further resistance...until they leave.

   We will NEVER agree on that.

   There were several terrorist training vases in Iraq. There were
   several Palestinian terrorist training bases, and hundreds of
   suicide belts found. In Salman Paq; there was an Al Qaeda
   terrorist base. and they even had a Boeing 727 fuselage to train
   hijackers.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:23 PM

Don't worry Jim Lad I'll be there wiping your bottom and pointing out your errors.

You stick to your truths, and i will stick to the real truths.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:34 PM

And I'll be there shitting all over you, boyo

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:48 PM

"...there was an Al Qaeda terrorist base..."

Ansar al-Islam was a group with Al Queda links, based in a part of North East Iraq in between the Kurdish autonomous area and the Iranian border. This area had been completely outside the conmtrol of the regime in Baghdad for many years. And Ansar al-Islam was very hostile to Saddam (and vice versa).

Saddam's regime was a very nasty one. But not to be confused with Al Qaeda, or with those who had attacked the USA at any time. (Though efforts were made by the US government to confuse them at part of the run-up to the war.)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 07:17 PM

Salman Pak was in the Southern No Fly Zone, and could have been taken out at any time, over a number of years

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 May 04 - 08:20 PM

Ya know. It's just so hard to feel sorry for the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:35 PM

Jim and Gareth you two stop arguing and agree to ignore each other!

Two bears : They should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. They are a hostile occupying force on land that does not belong to them, and can certainly expect further resistance...until they leave.

   We will NEVER agree on that.

I think you need to know your Hero, George Bush, Invaded for one reason, OIL! and nothing else, There were no WMD's or links to terror. And as for him wanting to stop Saddam He couldn't give a flying Fuck for the Iraqi people! They hate him and unfortunatly all Americans because of his Forign policys! Bad foregn policies is why those people flew those planes into those buildings!

If you think they did the right thing why are all those American Soldiers dieing?

George Bush hasn't attended a single soldiers Funeral because he doesn't want to be Photographed with a coffin before the election!

You need a new hero!
May I sugest Little Hawk? As far as I know he is not a mad power hungry lunitic that doesn't care who dies!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:39 PM

If it was the precious Private Jessica Lynch that was photographed Nakid all the USA would want to go in with Bombs and kill the torturing Bastards but since the tables are turned they were just playing a prank?
Whatever!

Raptor

PS 100th post HA!