BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 May 04 - 01:36 AM

I wonder if putting an arachnophobe in a confined space with a tarantula would be considered abuse or torture?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:56 AM

Another indication, from today's Guardian, that this kind of thing was a lot more widespread and authorised than they are trying to make out Now Reuters reveal three journalists abused in Iraq. (You need to register to get to this part of the paper.)

And here's a story about how the former commander of Guantanamo Bay, General Baccus was sacked because he tried to stop illegal abuse of prisoners General's sacking cleared way for Pentagon to rewrite rules.

With Gen Baccus out of the way the command of Guantanamo Bay was given to Gen Miller, who is now in command of this kind of thing in Iraq:

...Gen Miller was appointed commander. Under his watch, Guantánamo instituted a "72-point matrix for stress and duress", which the Washington Post said set out a guide for the levels of force that could be applied to detainees. These included hooding or keeping prisoners naked for more than 30 days, threatening by dogs, shackling detainees in positions designed to cause pain, and extreme temperatures.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:54 AM

The unmarked shell contained two inert chemicals meant to be mixed together when fired from a cannon. As an improvised explosive device, Kimmitt said, the weapon was "ineffective," and he said he doubted whoever had rigged it even knew it contained the potentially lethal chemicals.

Sarin is a WMD. the fact that the chemicals did not mix properly to kill hundreds or thousands does not mean it was not a WMD.


No stocks of banned weapons have turned up since the U.S. invasion.

Not yet; but Iraq was not suppoed to have ANY WMDs. So the fact that ONE has been found destroys the Iraqi claims that they did not have ANY WMDs. Iraq is about the size of California, and the troups can not dig up every square inch of the land. Hussein was gound in a 1 meter sized spider hole. weaponized Anthrax to fill a 5 pound bag of sugar would be enough to kill millions if it was released in populated cities like New York or Chicago. How many 5 pound bags of sugar could you hide in the state of California?

A Pentagon official told CNN that a single field test indicated the shell contained sarin and that a more definitive laboratory test had not been conducted. Initial field tests are often incorrect.

I am VERY well aware of false positives. I confronted false positives every day when I worked in the field of Computer Anti-Virus research.

I did not say anything the day the device was found, and the positive field test was reported.

When I wrote the message; another more accurate test HAD been performed, and CONFIRMED the device DID contain Sarin.

CNN military analyst Ken Robinson noted that more than 15,000 "false positives" for chemical weapons were registered during the first Gulf war."

That is true, and that is why I WAITED until the more accurate tests were performed that CONFIRMED Sarin.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:57 AM

Thats weapons of minor irritation!

The fact that the device did not function properly does NOT negate the fact that it WAS a WMD that was not supposed to exist.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:41 AM

Not really, if it was a half baked home made effort as appears to be the case that hardly justifies any sort of "we found WMD" hoohar. After all if a Guy in Spokane can do it with a pile of beans and a kitchen, then so can someone in Iraq with a pile of beans and a Kitchen. And it needn't be any sort of special artillery shell, any casing would suit, the cruder the better.

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:46 AM

Ah, but early on in the war, a STOCKPILE of empty shells for chemical weapons ( WMDs) was found, and all the anti-war folks said that that did not count, since there were no chemicals in them. Now we have the chemicals, and the line is that anyone could have made them.

Seems like a flaw in the logic, somehwere.

If the hardware is not the weapon, and the chemicals are not the weapon, what is?

But this thread is drifting. NOTE that the first CONVICTION of a US soldier has happened- WHERE are the fatwahs by the Islamic clergy denouncing the acts of their people????

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 19 May 04 - 03:38 PM

Ah, but early on in the war, a STOCKPILE of empty shells for chemical weapons ( WMDs) was found, and all the anti-war folks said that that did not count, since there were no chemicals in them. Now we have the chemicals, and the line is that anyone could have made them.

You are absolutely correct Bruce! the shells are NOT filled with the chemicals UNTIL they are ready to be used. The reason for this is that they could go off and kill their own people.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:56 PM

Two Bears says-

"I am VERY well aware of false positives. I confronted false positives every day when I worked in the field of Computer Anti-Virus research.

I did not say anything the day the device was found, and the positive field test was reported.

When I wrote the message; another more accurate test HAD been performed, and CONFIRMED the device DID contain Sarin."


As of today, May 19, 2004, 5:51 EST, the results of any more accurate (than the false-positive-prone) field screening of the supposedly sarin-armed IED have not been publicly reported. So, it is still to early to say it has been "confirmed".

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:49 PM

What I was trying to say is there's a flaw in the concept "Weapons of mass destruction."

According to Our Leaders (& some posters) one malfunctioning sarin shell is a WMD; carpet bombing is not.

Don't see much logic in that.

Which would cause massive destruction in your town & which minor destruction?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:28 PM

What about Depleted Uranium?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:41 PM

what about it?
Spent shell casings - the shell casing has no DP, the projectile has a core of it.

If the next Geneva Convention decides to ban DP, so be it. But for now, they are a little more effective than carpet bombing or nuclear weapons to destroy armour and fortified positions. And a lot more precise.

Depleted Uranium- the radiation level of my old watches is much higher- But I agree they may represent a long-term health risk. Not as much as enriched uranium in "devices", though.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:56 PM

Ahhhhh, The Geneva Convention.....

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:05 PM

Yes- You know, the one that prohibits putting military HQ and supplies into schools, hospitals and mosques, and using ambulances to transport military suplies and fighters?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:08 PM

The same one....

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:16 PM

"what about it?
"Spent shell casings - the shell casing has no DP, the projectile has a core of it."

Where you find a shell casing on a battlefield there is likely a projectile somewhere about. Armies seldom go to battle with empty shells.

You're nitpicking. You know perfectly well what the author of that article was talking about.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:21 PM

BUT not all shell casings have DP- we use a number of different types of ammunition, and the type is indicated by the color or banding on the projectile end.

The article was saying that there were piles of shell casings.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:21 PM

--but I hear that the Geneva Convention is "quaint" nowadays.
Please explain.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:23 PM

I can't- I did not ever say that it was "quaint"

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 19 May 04 - 08:29 PM

Well then, in your opinion, might any of those shell casings have contained projectiles with a core of depleted uranium which were then fired in battle?

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:26 PM

Thank goodness for your sanity, Clint.

I am astounded that beardedbruce (or anyone else for that matter) attempts to equate empty shell casings and one incident of sarin with stockpiles of WMD.

1. Saddam is no longer 'in charge' of Iraq. Blame those who are there to liberate and restore order. In other words, that was then and this is now. It is no longer Saddam's responsibility.

2. Anyone can make sarin.

3. Shell casings can be make to contain whatever ...

4. How many people have been killed in Iraq by weapons since the invasion of Iraq?

I mean, cmon, if my child is killed; do I really care if its from a WMD or a bullet or a bomb?

I'll say this much for Bush: he has definitely succeeded in scaring beardedbruce out of his wits.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:02 AM

On the TV yesterday, Bush talks about Israel taking more effort to protect innocent lives just after his gunships wipe out 10 members of an innocent wedding party, pot, kettle, black?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,#3
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:42 AM

40 members of an innocent wedding party

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:53 AM

42 to 45. 8 children, 10 women (from my local morning paper).

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:54 AM

dianavan:

"I am astounded that beardedbruce (or anyone else for that matter) attempts to equate empty shell casings and one incident of sarin with stockpiles of WMD."

The empty shell casings were US.
The stockpile of empty WARHEADS were Iraqi.

"1. Saddam is no longer 'in charge' of Iraq. Blame those who are there to liberate and restore order. In other words, that was then and this is now. It is no longer Saddam's responsibility."

The warheads were found during the combat phase: They are examples of the weapons that the Iraqis had avaiable.

"2. Anyone can make sarin."

True- so the empty warheads were significant.

"3. Shell casings can be make to contain whatever ..."

Yes, BUT warheads for chemical weapons are different than ones for DP or HE. Shell casings are the containers that hold the powder used to propel the warhead.

"4. How many people have been killed in Iraq by weapons since the invasion of Iraq?"

By weapons? "

"1. An instrument of offensive of defensive combat; something
   to fight with; anything used, or designed to be used, in
   destroying, defeating, or injuring an enemy, as a gun, a
   sword, etc."



"I mean, cmon, if my child is killed; do I really care if its from a WMD or a bullet or a bomb? "

Nope. So when someone threatens you with such a killing, why do you not want to take steps to protect yourself?

"I'll say this much for Bush: he has definitely succeeded in scaring beardedbruce out of his wits"

No again- it is the terrorists who have attacked us, those who support them, and those who make excuses for them that scare me out of my wits. I grew up during the Cold war- we had drills where we would hide beneath our desks at school, in case of attack. I have faced the fact that the policy of the United States, of MAD, merely means that when I would be killed, a lot of the enemy would, as well. And the whole principle was based on the idea that the other side would value their own lives. In the present situation, while we still have the same deterrence, the other side seems willing to suffer far more than the damage they inflict- this is counter-survival, but it is deadly to us.

The BEST way to force this country into a dictatorship is to have an outside threat that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be stopped, and continues regardless of what we do- this allows a would-be dictator to assume vast "temporay" powers that threaten our way of life.

The problem is, all of us seem to have different ideas of how to stop the terrorists. Some seem to think that we should give them what they ask for, some that we should kill them all. One has to look at the consequences of one's opinions if one is incorrect: If I give them what they want, and they kill me (and my children, and your children...) anyway, how much better off am I?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:12 AM

"The BEST way to force this country into a dictatorship is to have an outside threat that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be stopped, and continues regardless of what we do"

Bet a lot of Iraqi citizens feel the coalition forces already fulfill that role quite well.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:19 AM

Ok.

So it is ok for the Iraqis to feel that way, but not for me???

Either I am wrong, in which case, so are the Iraqis, or they are right , in which case so am I.

You have conceded the point to me.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:28 AM

And the last time an Iraqi bombed a wedding you were attending was?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:32 AM

see my posting to carolc about bombimgs, in the Arafat thread. The Muslims claim to be all one gorup, in attacking everything that Israel does: I claim that an attack on a children's birthday party in Israel, because they are in Israel, is an attack on me and mine.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:44 AM

Makes you as bad as they are, justify anything can't you!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:51 AM

No, it makes YOU as bad as they are, supporting the murder of ANY innocent children.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:07 AM

I deplore the bombing of a wedding as senseless, you say its justified on the grounds that something equally horrible happened in Israel. Maybe you should see about a job in one of those prisons looking after Iraqi prisoners, you might be able to do things that make you feel better and I bet you would be able to justify it.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:17 AM

beardedbruce - I can't seem to follow your argument. Maybe if you answered Clint's question, I would be able to understand your reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:28 AM

"I deplore the bombing of a wedding as senseless, you say its justified on the grounds that something equally horrible happened in Israel. "

Read my posts- I NEVER said it was justified. I said that the feelings of the Iraqis, if justified, meant that my feelings were justified.

"Bet a lot of Iraqi citizens feel the coalition forces already fulfill that role quite well. " was what I was commenting on.

"Maybe you should see about a job in one of those prisons looking after Iraqi prisoners, you might be able to do things that make you feel better and I bet you would be able to justify it. "

No, I shall leave that to you, so you can sort out the Jews and let them be abused, and let all the Muslims go, since that seems your goal.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:34 AM

sorry, dianavan- crossposted...

the question he asked was "And the last time an Iraqi bombed a wedding you were attending was? "

I have no idea where it came from


the previous posts were

Bruce : "The BEST way to force this country into a dictatorship is to have an outside threat that cannot be reasoned with, cannot be stopped, and continues regardless of what we do"

Guest : Bet a lot of Iraqi citizens feel the coalition forces already fulfill that role quite well.

Bruce : Ok.

So it is ok for the Iraqis to feel that way, but not for me???

Either I am wrong, in which case, so are the Iraqis, or they are right , in which case so am I.

You have conceded the point to me.



the first quote was from the posting to you.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:34 AM

Oh you're Jewish, that makes it all right then, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:41 AM

Guest: I am of the human race- what are you?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:57 AM

beardedbruce - I am trying to follow your logic but I am still confused. Will you please answer Clint's question,

"Well then, in your opinion, might any of those shell casings have contained projectiles with a core of depleted uranium which were then fired in battle? "

I, too, endured the air raid drills as a child. Isn't that a bit like comparing apples to oranges?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:18 AM

Yes, some of the shell casings might have- but I conceded that we had used DU projectiles.

In your opinion, might any of the individuals killing civilians be enjoying hurting innocent people?


And on which side is this more likely?


Just because you're paranoid dosen't mean they are out to get you.

The Muslim community, as a group, has been threatening to exterminate the Jews, since at least 1948 ( see their own statements) If what they say is not to be taken seriously, why should we believe it when they say they will allow us to live, as long as we go away? If they were lying in the past, would YOU trust them???

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:37 AM

The US prison guards in the photo's looked pretty happy to me, the ones leering over the corpse of their former inmate seemed to be having more fun than if it was a day out at NACAR.

So if we have to suffer or live in fear then so do they, is that your angle? I also consider myself Human and as such I try to cultivate human qualities such as compassion and understanding rather than hatred,vindictiveness and vengence.

Quote "The Muslim community, as a group, has been threatening to exterminate the Jews, since at least 1948 ( see their own statements) If what they say is not to be taken seriously, why should we believe it when they say they will allow us to live, as long as we go away? If they were lying in the past, would YOU trust them???" so your solution is what exactly? do whatever is required no matter how bloody or repugnant. Come on lets have some more of your tenuous logic please.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:20 PM

As of today, May 19, 2004, 5:51 EST, the results of any more accurate (than the false-positive-prone) field screening of the supposedly sarin-armed IED have not been publicly reported. So, it is still to early to say it has been "confirmed".

I heard a news report on WLAC 1510 AM where the Broadcaster stated categoricaly that another test HAD been performed and it confirmed Sarin before I wrote the message.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:28 PM

On the TV yesterday, Bush talks about Israel taking more effort to protect innocent lives just after his gunships wipe out 10 members of an innocent wedding party, pot, kettle, black?

1. It has been illegal for Iraqi people to shoot guns willy nilly in the air.

2. What kind of nitwit starts firing weapons in a war zone?

3. Who takes AK47s to a wedding?

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:34 PM

It is their custom, Two Bears.

Quite a lot of the problem is that we dont respect their customs
Remember what we did to the native Americans

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:34 PM

The business of the torture of people in the custody of America, and the indications that this wasn't just a bunch of sick lowlifes, but that they were doing what was expected of them by some very senior people, seems to have been successfully drifted off stage in this thread, by important stuff that would be better dealt with in a separate thread.

The latest pictures of happy smiling guards giving the thumbs up over the body of a young man who has died under interrogation ought to be on the front pages of all American papers tomorrow. I somehow suspect they won't be.

Here is one of them - and isn't it a lovely smile? No sign of any embarrassment or awkwardness. An all-American girl indeed. And then you look down the photo to why she's smiling so radiantly...

Its been stuck next to a press account of what happened when the US gunships turned up at that wedding party.

The US army spokesman really does have a great way of putting his foot in his mouth: "This operation is not something that fell out of the sky". Except that is exactly what happened - an example of what happens when, in order to minimise risks to military personnel, any effort to minimise the risk to innocent people on the ground is totally disregarded.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:56 AM

When this first started being reported most English langauge news channels that I have been able to see made reports of "torture" by these guards, however, channels like CNBC, CNN and Fox that I saw, kept mentioning something called "physical coercion". Trying to sanitise it for the home audience possibly, because Americans don't torture do they?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 May 04 - 08:30 AM

As of today, 05/21/04, 8:22 AM, there is no news report anywhere to be found that says that sarin has been confirmed. The last official quote (from Donald Rumsfeld on May 17) says that the declaration of sarin was made based on an unreliable field test. I'm not saying it absolutley won't be sarin, but it is entirely incorrect to say that sarin has been confirmed. if anyone has a link to a report stating that it has been confirmed in the laboratory, I will happily stand corrected.

Don't mean to be a pisser about this Two Bears, but this is exactly how innumerable falsehoods have snuck into our collective recollection of the Iraq invasion - something is trumpeted on page 1, then quietly retracted a week or two later on page 8 or greater (if at all). Remember the poll that showed that regular Fox News viewers believed demonstrable falsehoods at a rate something like three times the rest of the population? Let's not walk away from this little event recalling that sarin has been confirmed until (unless) it actually has.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 May 04 - 10:05 AM

It is torture. I was trained by the Australian Government to do assessments under the Convention Against Torture (CAT). It's torture.

Freda

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:05 PM

It is their custom, Two Bears.

Just because it is their custom; does not mean it is a good idea.

Quite a lot of the problem is that we dont respect their customs
Remember what we did to the native Americans

The Americans as a whole has worked VERY hard in the Muslim world to be a good neighbor. which means No tobacco, Alcohol, pron magazines, even going so far as to keep women to the base, and not allowing them to drive a car, etc.

I am not sure if the U.S. did attack the wedding party; but if I were flying a helicopter or plane, and someone was firing at me from the ground; I would return fire (whether they had intended to shoot at me or not).

This was a WAR ZONE, and I do not blame soldiers for taking steps to protecting themself.

The Iraqi people KNEW that firing a gun in that matter was ALREADY prohibited.

I am waiting until they find out what really happened.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:10 PM

Don't mean to be a pisser about this Two Bears, but this is exactly how innumerable falsehoods have snuck into our collective recollection of the Iraq invasion - something is trumpeted on page 1, then quietly retracted a week or two later on page 8 or

Then we will have to agree to disagree. The announcer I heard on WLAC 1510 AM out of Nashville, TN CLEARLY started tat a test HAD confirmed the presence of Sarin.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:31 PM

So Two bears, it bad when Native Americans were repressed and treated harshly but ok for a bunch of Arabs half way round the world. I'm sure your people weren't happy to have other peoples standards rammed down their throat at gun point, why should others have to take it.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:57 PM

It has been traditional in the Arab world to fire off guns into the air at weddings and indeed all outdoor celebrations ever since there have been guns in that part of the World. That doesn't mean it's a wise thing to do when you're in a war zone with nervous American soldiers flying around in helicopters, of course, but it's still going to happen. Occupying armies frequently shoot at the wrong people. It's generally hazardous to occupy foreign lands...both for the occupying forces and for the locals. That's one of the reasons I generally argue against invading people...specially when it's done on an extremely flimsly or a totally false pretext, as it was in the case of this war on Iraq.