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BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST Date: 29 Aug 04 - 08:53 AM "Yet again, GUEST 11:15 AM complained at how horrible the Mudcat is - yet the idiot won't leave" Well shucky darns boy. I forgot to put my "name" up there. Idiot? You're the idiot. You are typical of many here who simply believe they are the ones with the only valid answers. I know I have no "valid" answers - but facts speak for themselves. And if you can't speak to the facts then I would encourage you to ignore your own poll. What I posted to was facts. It's like the law. Does the law prevent law beakers? No. But the POSSIBILITY of paying a price for abherent behavior keeps those on the margins within the parameters of normal. And there are very few parameters of normal here. An example: A few years ago I got into an argument with some of the more "colorful" characters on this forum. Was told I should have been sterilized at birth. I didn't respond very well and a bunch of my Marine Brothers came over and raised cain for a day on the board. What a bunch of whining from the status quo here about that. I'll admit I most likely should not have done that. Came back and apologized for it a while back too. But of those involved in that diatribe I was the only one who apologized. The rest of the folks that were as ignorant, or worse than I, continued to be idiots and self-sanctified that they had done no wrong. Therefore no apologies for their behavior. Far as I am concerned it's no biggy anymore. But it still typifies the behavior. Compassion is a trait that is not well represented here. Once again that is my opinion only. I would not post here about personal loss, national tragedy, or anything that would be in need of folks to empathise with the situation. Some folks here would start to be there and caring - then the rest of the, let me quote you here, "idiots" would make it so miserable for the poster and the problems that they were struggling with would be better off going to KKK rally advocating for black membership. (That's an analogy for us idiots that don't speak real well) And this thread is as good an example of that trait on Mudcat as any. So as to your poll. It's a useless excuse to beat others, GUESTs included, for what doesn't fit with your idea of what should be. My name is Steve Neff, my handle is Norton1, and if you want to talk to me PM me and I'll give you my phone number. Though I doubt that a direct communication is of any more importance to you than anyone else who hides here and villifies others for what they say. Even though the poll suggests that no one wants to have their behavior monitored/modified from an external rationale. Might infringe on their ability to be assholes from time to time. And let me be clear that I am one of those that has exceeded the bondaries on occasion. No matter how well provoked by others. Made my apoloiges for that - I screw up I will apologize. Oh yeah - watch the crap now - right after I was told I should have been sterilized at birth our 19 year old son put a rifle under his chin and shot himself to death. Try holding the hand of one of your kids as the life leaks out of him. I thought of a lot of things I'd done wrong in my life. Maybe they, the villifiers, knew more than I did about the future. But I can assure you the folks involved in that little mess had nothing to do with the loss of our son. But it sure put their aversive behavior in perspective for me. So post away GUEST:Blackcatter. Pretty funny - GUEST condemns GUEST - it still does not mean a darn thing. And really good folks like Jerry, Spaw, and a few others that made the board fun and sincere appear to not agree with you in fact - but I'll bet in principle their simple good hearted nature could no longer tolerate folks of your ilk that advocate change for a nicer board and in that same thread bash others. Be well and God Bless - Steve "Norton1" Neff |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Aug 04 - 09:18 AM I assume you were being sarcastic with that "tip of the hat and thanks", M.Ted, (it can be hard to tell sometimes), and critical of those who said go easy on the censorship round here. But the point is, when there's a name on a post, and it hapens to be one of a very small numnber of posters, it's easy enough to just skip them unread. If some people choose to read them and respond to them, that's their lookout. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Blackcatter Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:04 AM dear Steve "Norton1" Neff Why do you persisit in visiting the Mudcat even though, you are clearly not happy here. Is it a streak of masochism or something? I'd really like to know. This is a question to which I've never heard an answer. Please enlighten us all. As for me posting as a guest, I only do that while I'm at work, as my boss does not want cookies on his computers. When I post as a guest, I always sign it as Blackcatter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: beardedbruce Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:11 AM Blackcatter, I think that a problem is that anyone can sign on as GUEST,Blackcatter, so noone really can be sure it is you posting. Perhaps Steve "Norton1" has an interest in folk or tradtional music, and finds the Mudcat to be of some use. Why do any of us visit here? For information, discussion, friendships, and out of masochism, I would think. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:21 AM Steve--I'm asking as a friend and a sister-- please, don't continue this here. I'd love to hear from you offthread.~Susan motormice@hotmail.com (Put MUDCAT in the subject line to pass the spam filters) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Jeri Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:22 AM Steve, if I said anything hurtful, I apologise. I think I did that already, though. What you did HURT. Getting pissed off at what people say isn't an excuse to hurt others though. Not for anybody. Compassion allows for forgiveness of the occasional times it happens though. It allows a bit of flexibility. Martin Gibson is an entirely different animal. Look at his post above and realize 2 things: 1) he doesn't know enough about the subject of the thread to discus THAT, and 2) his insults are so general they could be aimed at anybody (and usually are - they're re-used over and over.) They AREN'T PERSONAL. I'm not sure which bothers me more: people working a little to hard to offend others, or people working a little to hard to find reasons to be offended. For the life of me, I can't figure out why people would CHOOSE to get upset by somebody lobbing generic, one-size-fits-all insults at them. It's just background noise. You talk to somebody with the verbal form of Tourette's, and you learn to ignore the stuff that doesn't fit the conversation, and listen for the person's message, because the other stuff just doesn't matter. As to intentional insults, I don't think the intent matters very much. It's what you want to listen for, and what you want to talk about. Maybe one thing you should try before asking for intervention is to ignore the knot-in-your-shorts factor and just stick to the subject at hand. Just try it for a bit, and see if it works. What you're voting for is basically censoring replies, because the initial insult is a minor blip. You plan on writing these and hope that the admins clean up after you. It's not easy, avoiding that 'Submit' button sometimes, but the most sensible thing to do is not trash the joint in the first place. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: katlaughing Date: 29 Aug 04 - 11:03 AM Steve, I apologise, too, for anything which might have offended you. I reached out by email after you left, but received no reply. Now I understand why that may have been so. I am sorry for your loss and that you didn't feel you could come to Mudcat for solace. There has been plenty of compassion here, through the kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Jeri Date: 29 Aug 04 - 02:15 PM I think the compassion's still here, too. I just gets hard to find in the midst of all the bickering. You start a thread about being afraid for your daughter, and it winds up being a flame-fest on the war in general, because that's what some people may really want to discuss...or know how to discuss. It's the 'rut' they like to be in, and nobody ever challenges them for it. It seems impossible to drag discussions back from the generalities of peoples 'hot buttons' to the specific feelings of one person. People on soap-boxes are usually a lot louder and more persistent than others. I don't think human feelings matter to a bunch of people. For some of us, they do, and we're still here too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Aug 04 - 07:40 PM "...nobody ever challenges them for it." My impression is that a main problem is that people often do challenge or respond to hecklers, when it might be better just ignore to them. Pulling a thread back to a specific aspect is tricky verging on the impossible - one way would be to start a new thread, and post a link to it in the thread that has drifted off into other areas, with an explanation. And maybe supplement this with PMs to any people on the original thread who have shown they were interested in that aspect of the discussion, alerting them to the new thread (because quite likely they might have stopped reading the old one.) That's more or less the way we do things in ordinary life - if a general discussion veers off somewhere away from what you are especially concerned about, you are likely to find yourself carrying on the original conversation with a couple of people who are interested in the same aspect as you are. You wouldn't go thumping the table and calling the meeting to order, unless it was a formal meeting. And threads here aren't formal meetings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 30 Aug 04 - 02:33 AM It's like the law. Does the law prevent law beakers? No. But the POSSIBILITY of paying a price for abherent behavior keeps those on the margins within the parameters of normal. And there are very few parameters of normal here. That brings us back to the routine imposition of editing action. This one measure (over used) agaist the 'vandals' is only a punishment. For it has little effect as a deterrent to these 'vandals', for it is done with such a fuss as to bring the attention that is so craved by them and is the main reason for their postings. The clumsy, lazy and offensive deltion of entire threads, (by our volunteers) containing positive contributions as well as the less positve - is just punishing everyone for the crimes of a few. In the process, precious freedoms are gradually being eroded and folk encouraged to judge the worth of each other's contributions and to think that there is some other solution - than self moderation and simply ignoring the spoilt children's attention seeking tantrums and ploys. Perhaps had this common sense suggestion which has been made by many posters, over and over again - been encouraged by our volunteers - things would not be so bad that long- term posters, like Art and Jerry feel they have to stop posting? Perhaps the encouragement and the example of how to post positively and not respond in kind to our 'vandals', can now be set by all our volunteers as the main solution to our problems here? And the routine and reactive imposition of editing action is not now and in the future encouraged as the only measure - but only ever used sparingly as the last possible resort and the limitations and counter-productivity of this action finally accepted? Yes it would be OK if 'pains in the arse' like me did not complain every time our volunteers impose editing action - but it will reamin a fact that many do and (I hope) always will continue to strive to protect the very freedoms that are thought by some to be expendable..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Ron Davies Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:35 AM Re: the post above directed at me and Robin from courageous "Martin Gibson" (who refuses to give his own name) Don't worry about me and Robin. As I pointed out earlier, people who use absurdly stupid filthy language to attack others ("Martin Gibson", to pick a purely theoretical example), are making fools of nobody but themselves. We can handle the problem easily and defend ourselves. In fact "Martin Gibson" is a pathetic opponent in debate. We need no censorship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:56 AM We may not need to have censorship imposed upon us, but we do need to impose it on ourselves. The post referred to was posted here as an example and as most people have or would have ignored it - it could perhaps have safely just been left to be seen as an example? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Ron Davies Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:02 AM So how do you propose to impose it on "Martin Gibson?" Look, it's not by a long shot the most burning issue in the world, so "Let It Be". Let's tackle something more significant. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:30 AM So how do you propose to impose it on "Martin Gibson?" Look, it's not by a long shot the most burning issue in the world, so "Let It Be". Let's tackle something more significant. Ron - the point is that no one is imposing anything one anyone here, apart perhaps our clones, that is. Nor does anyone have to impose anything on anyone else here do they? The concept is called freedom of expression and many do consider it to be one, if not the most burning and significant issues in the world. "Imagine" - "All You Need Is Love". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,Norton1 Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:48 AM Enlighten you Blackcatter - I'm most likely not the one to attempt that but will do so at your request. 1) I've been a wandering minstrel for 30+ years. Have a large extended family of musicians, I'm not a pro, not even that good a picker, and some of the musicians are folks on this forum whom I have made music with. 2) I've a not so good memory and when I need words I can find them here. 3) I like helping people - it's what I do for a living - and have found opportunities to pay back this community with money, time, and some knowledge. 4) Because I want to. If that answers your question - awesome. If not - well I reckon life will continue in all of its magnificent beauty. As far as why I posted to this thread in the first place? Because I have often thought of the cat as one of the last free speech bastions. I don't always like what I read but I enjoy the freedome to read and post. Usually with some form of socially normative behavior pattern. Far as this thread, and your response to it, the rules were that GUEST's opinions didn't count. And you posted as GUEST:Blackcatter. I don't care which name you put behind GUEST, or the rationale for it, you're still a GUEST. Heck I could have posted this response as you. I'm sorry my IQ doesn't make me a human in your eyes. But it don't mean nothin Bro - and your calling me "idiot" makes you no better than the other flamers. I believe it is called hypocrisy. And were it I, I'd think about apologizing - but what are the odds of that happening? My last words on the subject - Thanks Susan - Be well and God Bless Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:29 PM So how do you propose to impose it on "***?" Easy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Georgiansilver Date: 30 Aug 04 - 01:35 PM Martin Gibson is not the only person on here who causes a "stir" but so many people give Martin the "credibility he deserves". He earns all the attention he gets......If you don't like it, ignore it please. Don't spend your time on here griping about what others are doing...just give opinions and ignore anything you don't like. You are capable of imposing you own censorship...you have choices. Best wishes. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Rasener Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:10 PM Which sort do you like then :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: BaldEagle2 Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:38 PM Ah - we all have choices, but the most cherished "right" we seem to give ourselves is a core belief that goes on the lines of "If I don't approve of something, then you must not do it". (Jeeze, we even have a teenage girl out here who wants to have all circuses banned on the grounds she read somewhere that a circus animal had once been mistreated: she disapproves, therefore none of us must go to a circus again. You get the drift.) On this site we appear to have two schools of thought: on one side "I disapprove of censorship, therefore you must let me say whatever I like", and on the other "I disapprove of inappropriate language, therefore you must not say anything that I deem to be inappropriate". The problem, I think, is that both sides are right. And then again, both sides are wrong. Is there no limit to what may be said under the concept of freedom of speech? Well, in law, ethics and simple peer pressure there are limits. Pedeophiles are not allowed to make recruiting speeches outside kindergartens, and neo-Nazis are not allowed to disrupt synagoge services by chanting obscenities at those attending. The rights of citizens to quiet congregation sometimes over rules the rights of others to make noise. On the other hand, to prevent honest discourse, purely on the grounds that you do not like the language being used, is extremely hard to defend. And will, in my view, inevitably lead to the worst excesses of political correctness. (I once worked on a site where the dress code actually contained the clause "On dress down days, jeans may be worn provided that they are nice". Honest. Oh boy, did the cube police there have fun and games at the expense of the rest) But sometimes the Freedom-Of-Speech brigade offer the viewpoint that "if you don't like what is being said on this site, then go somewhere else". This must be spurious - for those proponents will repeat the same theme at every other site: until the goers away have nowhere left to go to. I do not think that would be a satisfactory outcome. If that is true, then the same logic dictates that the Freedom-Of-Speech Brigade should not be given their marching orders, as well. It looks as we have a debate here that is the chat room equivalent of the abortion wars. Both sides, knowing that they are right, will go to extraordinary lengths to show that the other side is wrong. And there is no middle ground: a partial abortion would not satisfy either faction. I think that our volunteers are in the unwholesome position of being required to perform partial abortions on our threads. And neither side can be satisfied. One day, with impunity, the howling morons insult all and sundry for no apparent reason, and on another day sensible chat goes down the drain because the plug is pulled when the flames became a tad too high. Should mudchat have moderators, or should we advocate total freedom of speech regardless of what may then be said? Perhaps that should be in accord with the wishes of the majority, but again, perhaps not. How about adopting an additional pre-fix to the subject line of threads: say, "UM" for an unmoderated thread, and "MOD" for a moderated one. That way, the freethinkers could have their UM threads and scream and rant and swear to their hearts content. Those who do not want to listen could stay away, having been suitably warned. Likewise, if you go to a MOD thread, and use offensive language, then it would be no surprise to you if your contribution was to vanish sometime soon after you posted it. Just a thought. And it would introduce a requirement that the moderators could kill a single contribution to a thread - is that technically possible? But, I implore you, which ever side you place yourself, always remember: every single joke ever cracked, that was funny, had in it the power to offend someone somewhere. Don't lets make humor illegal at MudCat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Once Famous Date: 30 Aug 04 - 03:51 PM For a MOD thread, what specifically is offensive language? You know there are some nuns out there who think "damn" or "hell" is the worst thing there is. You can't do it. You can't draw the line where YOU think the line should be. Calling someone a used tampon is not swearing. True, it might offend someone, but calling someone a roll of toilet paper might also. Again, this can't work, because it is still imposing someone's definition of the world according to someone. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: BaldEagle2 Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:35 PM If it is indeed impossible to have a polite conversation because others insist on their right to be potty mouthed fascists, then you are correct Martin - those who prefer not to hear such nastiness must go away and leave this place to you and your ilk. If that is our only defence against listening to the indefensible, then so be it. Before we go, could you please defend the right of a pedeophile to orate a recruiting speech at a children's playground. Then perhaps we can see what we would be missing in your wonderful world of "a person's right to say what they want outweighs ALL other considerations". (oh - could you point us to some sites you will never visit, so that we won't upset you again. Thanks.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,Frank Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:48 PM I think a poll here is unecessary because those who indulge in flaming have forfeited their credibility as reasonable people and as a result their point-of-view is marred by their anger. They can be easilly passed over in favor of those who want to have a legitimate discussion. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Once Famous Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:25 PM Your arguement sucks, baldeagle2. Defending the right of a pedophile has nothing at all to do what goes on here. I wouldn't defend it either and I agree with you about that, so there. Now what. Every thing here with all of the "what if" spouting that goes on is purely situational and is very little but opinion. You win this week's top bullshit award for thinking otherwise. I'm going to be wherever you go, me and my "ilk." for your "ilk" there is no escape, nowhere to hide in your own little Utopia. You can run but you can't hide from the people who think different from you, the ones who are having fun, and the ones who take all of the "what if" philosophies for what they are. Mostly a crock that has little effect on anything. Guest Frank. Wrong. Credibility can change on a day to day basis and is purely situational. It plays out here daily and really has nothing to do with anger. Keep flailing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:36 PM those who prefer not to hear such nastiness must go away and leave this place to you and your ilk. Fortunately that isn't so, since there's no sound track here. All that's needed is to spot the name and skip the post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Once Famous Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:45 PM It actually works for me, too. Certain posters read like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. "What if blah, blah, blah blah" I don't read everything here. Especially posters who are presidents of their own fan club. this is your brain. This is your brain on Mudcat wannabee intellectuals. complete mush. "But what if that mush.............................. blah, blah, blah" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: BaldEagle2 Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:48 PM Martin - Calm down. You seem to be getting over-heated. Again. I promise I will never, ever call you a used tampon. Honest - you have my word on it. To do so would suggest that you have had initimate knowledge of the female body on at least two occasions (the first when you were born), that a female who had reached puberty had found you useful on a least one occasion, and it would also be a dreadful slur on all the genuine used tampons out there. And nor "a roll of toilet paper". Come on, boy, everyone but everyone has some use for a roll of toilet paper. Really. (Come to think of it, when did the right to call people names become part of the right to freedom of speech? Must have snuck in when the rest of us where looking the other way. Perhaps we can add it to it the pedeophile's right to recruit and junk this one as well.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:51 PM On this site we appear to have two schools of thought: on one side "I disapprove of censorship, therefore you must let me say whatever I like", and on the other "I disapprove of inappropriate language, therefore you must not say anything that I deem to be inappropriate". No there is another school of thought that is simply saying that they accept that they do not have any control over the postings of others. They do not wish to have this control nor for anyone else to impose it on their behalf. That they have all the editing tools they require. That whilst accepting they do not have any right over the postings of others, that their wish would be for others to respect their position. And not to respond in kind or in any way to those whose approach to this freedom is to vandalise and whose actions encourage others to believe that they should have judgement and control over the postings of others and who will in the name of this, erode these precious freedoms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: BaldEagle2 Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM Shambles, really. That your third point of view matches exactly the "No Censorship!!! Goddammit!" school of thought is merely one of semantics? I expected better of you. Never mind. Right. If a group of people really wish to have a moderated discussion, am I correct in thinking that you would deny them any means to do so? No matter how many, and for what reason? You would deny them such a forum. Because it is wrong for people to deny others the right of expression? And any code of conduct that allows "offensive" material to be removed, is such a denial. So, in this brave new world, no group shall agree a code of conduct between themselves, for it could be politically uncorrect on any stranger who barges in on them. (Am I really getting this right?) And if you arrive unannounced and unwanted, and you wish to make a recruiting pitch for pedeophiles, I not only have to let you have your say, I must leave your diatribe intact for evermore in case someone else wishes to read it? You ask of me, sir, more than you will grant unto me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:46 PM So, Martin, what do you think we should do about you? You've managed to annoy almost everyone by now, and I think you've become tedious. What is it you want? You seem to be reasonably intelligent. Wouldn't you get more pleasure out of making an intelligent contribution to the Forum? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:58 PM But getting a lot of attention... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Once Famous Date: 30 Aug 04 - 09:51 PM Well, Joe. I only think that's what it might look like on the surface. I believe I have made some intelligent contributions to the forum, have tried to be helpful with my extreme knowledge of American country music and guitars above the border. Below the border, it is truly amazing how many posts have followed mine starting off "I actually agree with Martin Gibson on____________." I do get plenty of PMs telling me they enjoy what I write and how I lay it out without pulling no punches. Many have revelled in some of the things I have said to some people. I have made some pretty interesting acquaintances here. I don't really know what you want to do about me, Joe. Is it better to come in like many regulars have obviously done as "guests" to insult my wife and family? Or that it gives them the right as "guests" to give me an anti-semetic slam? I have posted consistently as Martin Gibson. I have made some mistakes like most everyone here. I have also said some things that I would say again in a New York minute. My politics are not typical middle aged folksinger. So what? Why don't we all just talk about Barney the Dinosaur? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:16 PM That your third point of view matches exactly the "No Censorship!!! Goddammit!" school of thought is merely one of semantics? Words are all we have. Yes I may not like censorship but the reason and words I gave for this were not the ones you stated. I value the scary concept of the freedom for others to be able to say what they wish and the freedom for me to agree, disagree or to ignore it Right. If a group of people really wish to have a moderated discussion, am I correct in thinking that you would deny them any means to do so? No matter how many, and for what reason? You would deny them such a forum. Why on earth would you deduce from what I have said, that I would want to deny anybody this? If others choose or prefer to post to such a forum - what right would I have to deny them the freedom to do this? As long as I or others clearly knew this to be the case in advance - we have the freedom to join or not to join this forum. Because it is wrong for people to deny others the right of expression? And any code of conduct that allows "offensive" material to be removed, is such a denial. Wrong it may be but it less a matter of judgement and principle than one of practical reality. Who judges this and what good does this reactive measure do but to bring attention to the very material that has already done its 'damage'? So, in this brave new world, no group shall agree a code of conduct between themselves, for it could be politically uncorrect on any stranger who barges in on them. (Am I really getting this right?) No far from it. It is just such a code of conduct that the vast majority of posters here do try to follow and an example that any stranger can easily follow. Sadly the less positive example of judgement of the worth of each other's postings and requesting editing action based on that judgement being imposed, is currently being set. And if you arrive unannounced and unwanted, and you wish to make a recruiting pitch for pedeophiles, I not only have to let you have your say, I must leave your diatribe intact for evermore in case someone else wishes to read it? You ask of me, sir, more than you will grant unto me. This is a music forum which has a place that in theory practically anything can be placed there. Why anyone would wish to make recruiting pitch for pedeophiles here is unclear and I for one would not wish to see or encourage such things to be posted here. If it were, I am sure such a thread would have many posts that would make it perfectly clear what most people thought. But should it happen - as I have said, the damage has largely been done. Do you then leave it and other equally offensive material in place? Probably not but where are those arguing for this material to be given a permanent home here, when there are so many online places for it? Some could argue that there is a right to post such stuff - it would not seem right to me, to post it here. When it is clear that you are talking only of damage limitation by reactive editing action - are the risks of censorship really worth all the resulting problems? I won't post such stuff and I would not open a thread which made it clear what it contained and if I came across it, I would quickly move on. I suspect that most folk here would do the same, if it were to be left in place. However, without all the fuss and bringing shocked attention to something posted here, that we would simply ignore elsewhere online, it would fall off the bottom of the page and soon be forgotten. Perhaps that is the best way to deal with such things here? But this remains a moderated forum. I am just trying to ensure that we do not get even more and the baby does not get thrown out with the current bathwater. My point really is that imposed editing is not currently limited to just these out of place contributions that not many would argue to keep. Under the cover of this - editing action is routinely imposed upon postings that are not these obvious candidates for reactive deletion. For example, entire threads are deleted because our volunteers cannot be bothered to make a distinction between the 'offensive' posts and the rest. Censorship does over time tend to lead the censor to generally devalue all contributions. Censorship is a difficult and delicate matter. All I expect is that enough care is taken here to ensure that nothing that should not be deleted is lost. If it were up to me and it came to a stark choice between ensuring this at the expense of leaving in place the sort of offensive material you refer to - I would choose no censorship at all but would make it clear to all contributors in advance that this was the case. A lot of the trouble here comes from the fact that many have been posting for many years under the impression that there is no censorship and this is an un-moderated fourum. Sadly it is neither fish nor foul and this is not really made very clear when folk start to post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Ron Davies Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:24 PM Oh, come on, people--we can all take it--I sure can. I treat "Martin Gibson"s gems with all the respect they deserve, and no more. Between Georgiansilver 30 Aug 04 1:35 and Villan 30 Aug 04 3:10 there were several posts directed at me by "Martin Gibson". They have now been deleted but I can tell where they were, because of what Villan said. I was all ready to respond, and even though the posts are now missing, including one which called me "one of the most dangerous people on the network", due to alleged political correctness (truly absurd, since I actually was calling for no censorship, as anyone with a brain and an eye can see from my posts below). At any rate, I'm disappointed "Martin"s posts have disappeared, since he was making himself even more of a laughingstock than usual, and he sets a high standard in that regard. So without any further ado, here's my answer to the "one of the most dangerous" post, since deleted: I'm touched and honored that "Martin" has named me "one of the most dangerous people" on the forum. Gosh, I don't know what to say. I'd like to thank my parents, my teachers, everyone who helped me along the way, and not least, "Martin Gibson" (THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE), who believed in me when no one else did (SNURF, BLUBBER) for making this day possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Teresa Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:28 PM Every other forum I frequent requires membership and has moderators. There is much less abuse on these fora. Yes to requiring membership for guests. (Provided that all membership requires is a username and password.) No to everything else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:49 PM That's what I mean, Martin. You have a lot to say that's valuable. It's the combative stuff that doesn't work here. We need a certain amount of civil behavior for this place to function as a forum of ideas. The name calling and insults distract from all that, and result in chaos instead of discussion. I think it's safe to say that every insult posted posted on the Internet is multiplied tenfold by the recipient, who then magnifies and returns the insult. Then the whole thing stops being fun. That's why I deleted Martin's insults before Ron got a chance to respond and continue the cycle. It has nothing to do with obscenity or foul language or any of that prudish stuff - animosity is the problem. I'd really rather not have to waste my time deleting any of this nonsense, but the atmosphere has been downright nasty around here lately. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:37 PM Ahhh....makes me feel good....like a good scratch...on an out-of-the-way-spot....on one's back.
Keep It Up folkies....the itch continues.
Sincerely,
all other of "my boards" have learned...this continues to be fun, fun, fun until the evening is done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Ron Davies Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:14 AM Joe-- Hoping to avoid a locker room atmosphere ( since I had seen several threads deteriorate into this) and thereby perhaps hear from some more women on the topic, since they, understandably are not fond of such language), I did ask all participants on the thread I started (To Nader Supporters), to voluntarily forswear vulgar language so we could have a relatively intellectual debate on the issue. All complied except "Martin". Obviously having no power over him but the possibility of shaming him into this reasonable request, I ridiculed him (not difficult). Was my request to avoid vulgarisms not reasonable? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Joe Offer Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:01 AM Certainly, a request to avoid vulgarisms is reasonable, Ron. So is my request that we avoid mortal combat. But does anybody listen to me???? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: The Shambles Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:19 AM But does anybody listen to me???? -Joe Offer- You seem to think that they should but why should anyone listen to your views any more than they listen those of mine or of any other poster? Are we not all posting as equals? No, they may not listen to you or accept your views and judgement and there is a good reason for this. However, many do (sadly) follow the example that you set. If you post to judge the worth of others, respond in the same kind of language to the 'vandals' and feel you have the right to make personal attacks (often in return for those you feel are made against you)- other posters will follow the example you set...... If this is an example of 'don't do as I do - but do as I say' - this is hardly the most positive example to set for others to follow - is it? In fact it is a red rag to many bulls. You seem to feel that you and your volunteers are entitled to additional rights but if so, the trade-off for this is additional responsibility. Joe if you and your volunteers, set a different, more positive and consistent example, folk may follow that also. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: jacqui.c Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:52 AM I don't like to see gratuitous rudeness and aggressiveness both of which have been evident in the last few months. I find it difficult to see why, if one person doesn't agree with another's view, there should be such animosity. I'm no prude - I've done bar work in London pubs and do not get easily offended by ripe language. What does offend me is the unwarranted personal attack that has resulted from my putting my own point of view on a thread. As a very good friend of mine has said - there are no wrong opinions - and I resent anyone else using bullying tactics of any kind when they don't agree with me. This puts me off of contributing to threads, particularly when I can see that certain names are regularly coming up on that thread. I would hate to see any form of censorship and I do my best to overlook any personal attacks on me, but it does get difficult to stay quiet sometimes. I just wonder why these posters have so much difficulty in joining in a civilised debate! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:35 AM I just wonder why these posters have so much difficulty in joining in a civilised debate! I don't think it's so much that they find it difficult, I think that they just don't want to. I suspect that there are people for whom the idea that people who disagree with each other should express their differences without making personal attacks is seen as an offensive idea - hypocritical, dishonest, lacking in spontaneity, that kind of thing. If you think that way I suppose it could give rise to a wish to break things up, and a feeling that that is a righteous thing to do. In a way it's a kind of iconoclasm. The very term "civilised debate" could be like a red rag to a bull. In a china shop. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Jeri Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:42 AM They don't even 'express their differences', McGrath. I don't think they're capable of it. I don't think they understand it, or why other people argue about topics, or see them as relatively clueless when they can't. It's not something they ever learned how to do, and likely will learn. Not as long as they think the shock value scores points. Listen, the shock value, should be (one would think) nonexistant by now. Then again, I'm usually more easily bored than a lot of people. It's the attention span thing. I'd like to have the right to use vulgar language. I save it for when I'm really pissed off, just so people can tell I'm really pissed off. I try to tune out 'noise' when I'm talking to other people. Focusing on it, whether it's someone using profanity or 'trigger' words, mis-spelling things, using bad grammar or sentence syntax, distracts from the conversation. You start off in that direction, and people always follow. If people continuously respond to rudeness and profanity instead of discussing the topic of a thread, why even bother having topics? Every thread is a flame war simply waiting for the 'you're a poopie-head' trigger to herd people back onto the well-worn path. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Teresa Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:50 AM I agree, Jeri. Feeding trolls is a very dangerous thing, because they might figure out that they can eat you, too. :> I try to answer questions at face value, or simply ignore the insults. T |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Once Famous Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:15 PM so, in other words, you cannot tell someone that they are full of shit if you do not agree with them, but you can tell them that they suck rose petals, right? Or, not that Ron Davies is one of the most dangerous on this forum. How about, Ron Davies comments and attitudes are very hard for someone who is very down to earth to relate to. Insulting? Whack me with a feather! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Paco Rabanne Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM 195 (nicely) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Josh Date: 31 Aug 04 - 12:27 PM No Free speech is our democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Bill D Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:19 PM Shambles: re: "Are we not all posting as equals?" Did you ever hear the phrase "1st among equals"? The owner has decreed that this WILL be a semi-moderated forum...in order to have such, someone has to do the moderating. Joe & Jeff have been designated to oversee this process. They have some help doing part of the work, but ONLY they have the final decision about what is deleted. 97% of everyone is happy with that setup and trusts them. I think I see a hidden agenda behind those who argue for NO censorship ot editing. They would rather see any amount of obscenity, stalking, personal attacks, puerile nonsense and verbal harassment allowed than see ONE of their own posts deleted. I can't think of any country or society in the world which allows unlimited freedom of speech and press. Some overdo it for political or religious gain, but even the most liberal have limits...mostly related to preserving the peace and protecting individual rights. (Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. You can play the tuba, but not on my porch....or at 3AM. You can print/say what you wish if YOU own the site.(well, and IF you do not advocate overthrow of the govt. by force, etc.)*smile* You want to see what it really comes down to? Read this blog on free ice cream, and then contemplate what we have here at Mudcat! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Aug 04 - 01:22 PM I'm with jacqui.c in not being worried by "language" as such, which would have to be pretty extreme before I'd even notice, but rather by attitude, by the personal attacks and hostility on people whose only offence is to disagree with the attacker - and sometimes not even that, it seems to happen more or less at random. To adjust the old song "If you're not with the one you hate, then hate the one you're with". But once you've identified someone who habitually goes in for that kind of thing, it's easy enough to ignore their posts without even looking at them. No need to reward them with attention, or make a big deal about censorship. ......................................... My feeling about censorship and moderating on the Mudcat is that it's probably about right at present. That's based on the fact that, so far as I can remember, I've only once come up against a situation where I've noticed that a thread has been removed when I felt it shouldn't have been, and I don't think that's a bad record. But I'd be uncomfortable about having significantly more tidying up, especially if were just about language as such. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: M.Ted Date: 31 Aug 04 - 02:06 PM Thanks, Joe, for talking straight to "Martin", without the invective, without the hyperbole, and without the dire polemics. And thanks, "Martin", for being straight and honest in your response-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting From: Georgiansilver Date: 31 Aug 04 - 03:55 PM 200 |