BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:16 PM

When people say YES to censorship, what they mean is - as long it is done to anyone but THEM...

But Bill the issue is never going to be one of having a totally uncensored forum - I think that many have accepted long ago that for many reasons this is never going to be the case here. So there is really little point in trying to make me defend things I have not said or a general position that I do not hold. What I am interested in here is how the important principle of freedom of speech can best operate in the face of those who wish to exploit and abuse this freedom and those who wish to erode or ignore it.

The practical problem is first - what is meant by censorship on our forum? From reading all of this thread, although there are many questions that will follow on - I hope you would agree that this boils down to one simple question. Should every contribution made to the forum stay on the forum?

There may be some hope from some of us, that removing 'offending' posts, or even removing entire threads that may contain one or two 'offending' posts, may act in some way to prevent future 'offending'. However, I think the issue really is - if our forum should (forever) play host to these or should they be removed?

My preference is to try and ensure that this difficult question, or at least the following who,why,what and when questions - rarely need to be answered and when they do, perhaps is answered directly by Max).

It encouragingly looks as if others are also coming to recognise that there are perhaps alternative methods to try to encourage. And that changing attitudes by this encouragement may prove to be more effective, than relying only on the single questionably effective measure of the imposition of censorship, that will always remain so counter-productive.

Joe Offer in this thread.

It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible. That "discipline of silence" doesn't seem to happen around here as often as it should.

I would like Mudcat to be a gently, friendly place where people feel comfortable - and I'm deeply embarrassed when it's not. Right now, it sees that too many people around here just want to do battle. I'm sorry, but no amount of editorial work will change the essential spirit of things here. We do what we can to put out fires; but peace has to come from the community, not from some sort of editorial enforcement.

No I go banging on - mainly because our well-meaning volunteers and their loyal supporters give no ground at all and continue to publicly bang right back. If there really is a change of emphasis - from the mantra of routine imposition of editing action and encouraging judgement of the worth of other's postings, to one of ensuring that our volunteers set a different example, on the lines indicated here (and elsewhere by Joe) - I can finally stop banging on (which would be nice).

Is there any such movement?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:40 PM

Peace, love, dove.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:42 PM

Joe Offer's idea is great.

"It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible. That 'discipline of silence' doesn't seem to happen around here as often as it should."

That's precisely what I do and when someone irrationally flames me, I tend to disregard any other post that they may have. I skip right over it as if they weren't there. Eventually I begin to find out who the reasonable people are and respond to them. This includes almost everybody on Mudcat.

I am grateful for these threads and the discussion by intelligent Mudcatters. There seems to be really not too many flames or craziness by most Mudcatters; that's why I like to stay on board.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 04:44 PM

Well I am getting movement at the moment. Must go to the Loo :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: SINSULL
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 05:02 PM

No

And I have a novel idea: Why not let Max decide???

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 06:44 PM

"Should every contribution made to the forum stay on the forum?"

No...

that was easy!

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:53 PM

That WAS just the easy bit...................

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:54 PM

Ron Davies said: ".....thereby perhaps hear from some more women on the topic, since they, understandably are not fond of such language...."

Actually Ron, you seem to be a lot more offended than many women I know who also might suggest your comment is a bit chauvinistic. Sounds like something said by a real asshole portal for the discharge of semi-digested biological waste.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:58 PM

Oh yeah......Hey Sins!!! THAT IS the obvious answer and has always been the obvious answer. However, if most of the "portals" who debate this shinola all the time would just give in to that, the thread count would drop by half as they'd have nothing to debate.(:<))

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:51 PM

Nice one Catspaw40. Hope you enjoyed that, Ron Davies.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:17 AM

Nothing like setting a good example.

And this is nothing like setting a good example.

Actually Ron, you seem to be a lot more offended than many women I know who also might suggest your comment is a bit chauvinistic. Sounds like something said by a real asshole portal for the discharge of semi-digested biological waste.

Spaw

Are you still a volunteer then - Pat?

Guest Frank said:

Joe Offer's idea is great.

>"It's still true that the very best way to deal with flames and abuse is to ignore them, to act as if offensive posts were invisible. That 'discipline of silence' doesn't seem to happen around here as often as it should."<

That's precisely what I do and when someone irrationally flames me, I tend to disregard any other post that they may have. I skip right over it as if they weren't there. Eventually I begin to find out who the reasonable people are and respond to them. This includes almost everybody on Mudcat.

Yes it is a great idea - if only this example WAS actually set and encouraged. If the 'reasonable' people were set a better example, and our volunters followed Frank's example and actually did practice what they preach and simply ignored the insults and did not respond in kind - it would finally be a start to ensure that we did not have to keep having this debate.

Joe Offer in this post:

That's what I mean, Martin. You have a lot to say that's valuable. It's the combative stuff that doesn't work here. We need a certain amount of civil behavior for this place to function as a forum of ideas. The name calling and insults distract from all that, and result in chaos instead of discussion.

I think it's safe to say that every insult posted posted on the Internet is multiplied tenfold by the recipient, who then magnifies and returns the insult. Then the whole thing stops being fun.

So far so good - then.......

That's why I deleted Martin's insults before Ron got a chance to respond and continue the cycle. It has nothing to do with obscenity or foul language or any of that prudish stuff - animosity is the problem. I'd really rather not have to waste my time deleting any of this nonsense, but the atmosphere has been downright nasty around here lately.

Sigh.....Are Catspaw's (and Joe's own) insults and personal attacks to be deleted too? I suspect not....Please get a grip.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:31 AM

Ya' know Shambles, the real issue on all of these threads that seem to be running now is once again the same one that was here 5 or 6 years ago and it is one of control. I've been through these sillyass wars umpteen times now and in the final analysis it still gets back to Max.

Poor Max. The young man has a valuable and fun website which all of us are only too happy to tell him how to run. When one of these things gets too bad and too over the top, he ends up stepping in and explaining what he'd like to see happen. Things then calm down til the next round. In all this time I have yet to see him take a stand to employ any more censorship than is absolutely the barest minimum. And he has chosen Joe and Jeff (who don't always agree) to keep it at a level he can live with. It's his choice. And through almost all of it Roger you have stated you too want no censorship. Gee, that sounds okay with Max to me.......he just also seems to know that some moderation is needed in the real world.

But then you do fight the need for the occasional clean-up and combining of threads as well as as the abusive ones since it strikes you as a slippery slope and you don't like the fact that Joe does it or Jeff does it and you don't. You refer once again to "Joe's own insults" and to be accurate, I must tell you that I have never seen one from him that amounts to a hill of beans or can actually be classed as an insult at all. And I know you will agree that I am the resident expert on insults so take my word for it, he hasn't broken the surface of the insult pond. And as to personal attacks............ah the hell with it. Typing this is a waste of time.

Joe and I have had plenty of fights and disagreements over the years but the man has a great heart and puts forth his best effort. If Max has a problem with Joe, he addresses Joe......not me, not you....Joe. You have been on this "chase" for several years and I credit you with high intelligence so I am amazed that you cannot seem to stop this harangue in the face of all evidence that it does no good for you or Mudcat to continue. If you are searching for this "utopian site" that you seem to be, this ain't it. It's damn good, but it will never satisfy you. Whatever your dream is, please go and create it. Don't leave here, you're still a member and that didn't work before for you. No, please stay, but can the diatribes. Then go out as well and set up a site that will encompass all you believe this place should and doesn't. You are free to do that and I would be very interested in the result.

I am around here so damn little anymore that I don't really know the latest group of players but I read the threads and see the same shit and a different day (or year) when it comes to telling Max what is wrong with Mudcat. If he hasn't gotten your message by now, don't you think it's probably a waste of time writing these voluminous postings in the hope that one day Max sees one and says, "By gawd Roger, that's brilliant! I never thought of that before!" Or, "You're right Shambles, Joe is an unmitigated asshole and I've been a fool all these years." ??????????

Feel free to continue writing Volume 97 in the saga, but if I were you, I think I'd invest my time in setting up my own perfection rather than trying to run someone elses.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:39 AM

i agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:14 AM

My house has a large white wall. I invite people to write some of their thoughts on this wall and to communicate with each other there. However, it also proves irresistible to vandals with spray paint tins – who write all over it with large letters, in every colour imaginable.

Now some people I know, volunteer to clean it all off. To ensure that it does not happen again, in an equally colourful manner with their own spray cans, they write in large letters pointing out that - spraying colourful paint all over this wall is not something that is to be encouraged.

These volunteers even invite (at least permit, by not cleaning off their contributions) a few trusted friends to also say the same things with their spray cans and in an equally colourful way.

Do you know what? Before long, the wall is again covered all over with colourful spray painted writing!!!!

Would you believe it, eh?

Now this has been going on for many years and there have been lots of suggestions for a different approach and for a different example to be set. But these volunteers just get out their trusted spray cans and write all over the wall to tell them, in the usual colourful way - that the wall has been entrusted to them by the owner and that they and their supporters think that 97% agree with the tried and trusted method.

In fact a number of those who I invited to contribute to my wall find that their contributions are being cleaned off, along with the spray paint or being covered over by it. And they don't feel that there is room for both them and all the spray-painting. Some of them go off and try to a wall that suits them better.

Many however do choose to remain and to watch as the wall continues to be covered with large letters in colourful spray paint and still write on the wall to suggest sensible alternatives. And that it is now possibly time to accept that although these volunteers may be having a great time with their spray cans– it may be time to set a new example.

Perhaps I should give it a try?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:38 AM

Lay off Joe. He is doing an excellent job in a situation requiring an extremely delicate balance. I suspect none of the critics would like to have his job, which comes close to a classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" conundrum. What did Lincoln say about pleasing all of the people all of the time?

Little Hawk--

Wrong. Some people (of both sexes) realize that vulgarisms are stupid, pointless, and show, as I said before, a poverty of vocabulary and intellect. Based on postings I've seen here, I am not the only one who doesn't like them. I've certainly seen others who never use them. The English language may be the richest in the world--why not use it?
The Nader thread was almost 100 long and I realized that only one woman had posted (I believe). It was a reasonable guess on my part that perhaps part of the cause was that it was descending into locker room talk, as I had seen others do. Perhaps it was a wrong guess.





Martin--


As you should be able to tell, neither the "full of" nor the "rose petals" comments really contribute that much to any discussion. How about actually addressing issues (like Nader etc.) rather than attacking anybody personally? It seems a reasonable request. Foul language and personal attacks are the last refuge of somebody who has no arguments that make sense. If the shoe fits.....


To all--

I've made my views quite clear. I am totally against all censorship on Mudcat, except self-censorship. I am free to appeal for restraint. You are obviously free to ignore me. I read and hear foul language all the time. If there is more to the argument than that I continue reading. If not I stop. It's a waste of my time and everybody else's. There is virtually no foul language in the music threads. There doesn't really have to be here either. But I will not leave the non-music threads, regardless of language or personal attacks, since I believe there are important non-musical issues to be discussed. For the record, I think George Carlin's 7 Dirty Word riff was hilarious.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:44 AM

One more thing--

It would be a fascinating exercise to see what language everybody used if everybody had to actually use his or her real name each time they posted, as I do. I bet that, as Bob Wills said, there'd be "some changes made".

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:19 AM

"Self-righteous twit" reporting for duty, sir:

I also think a lot of rugby songs are great, sing "God damn them all" in Barrett's as loudly as anybody, and can use bad language myself if I'm in the crosswalk and some idiot in a car doesn't stop. I could also probably sing "On the Good Ship Venus" if I'd re-learn the words, and I think it's a shame how sea chanteys have been watered down in performance. I also quit a group partly because the director tended to do completely bowdlerized versions of sea songs. That doesn't mean I think it's just fine how vulgar speech permeates everyday life. It doesn't have to.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:21 AM

Wesley S came up with the following [posted in the latest 'hug and prayer complaint thread]- it says more in a few lines than I can ever manage, in my long-winded way.

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others.

Kevin said:

My feeling about censorship and moderating on the Mudcat is that it's probably about right at present. That's based on the fact that, so far as I can remember, I've only once come up against a situation where I've noticed that a thread has been removed when I felt it shouldn't have been, and I don't think that's a bad record.

But I'd be uncomfortable about having significantly more tidying up, especially if were just about language as such.

Not too sure if I can see that anyone, who matters, is too worried about how uncomfortable you, I or anyone else feels on the forum.

But because you may not have noticed or not often come up against a situation where someone you know has been raped - it does not mean that the single victim does not deserve your concern, that rape generally is not a terrible crime or that the police generally have a good record of preventing rape, does it?.

But whatever you or I may come up against or feel - it is the victim's experience that matters. I think you would agree that even one rape is one rape too many - although I somehow rather doubt that you will use words that will make this agreement very clear?

As for the current level of censorship and moderation being about right. Is the level of this the issue? Indeed, how would you or I measure this level - if it were? If you have never had censorship imposed upon your contribution, you may consider that the level is just about perfect - if censorship has been imposed upon your contributions, you could be forgiven perhaps, if you thought it to be excessive, both in manner and in frequency?

The one instance you refer to where you thought a (entire) thread was wrongly removed (along with all the invited contributions of many posters) is enough to cause concern and indicate that this may be just the sign of what may be a much bigger problem? Indeed when I first came across such an event - I did not make the assumption that it was a one-off. I made a point of finding out if it was or not and established that it was not an isolated occurence at all.

Even if the one instance you noticed and referred to was just one poster - is not this victim and their feelings enough concern? When it is a entire thread, is it not even worse?

Being granted serenity is one thing - complacently ignoring the full implications of what you consider 'shouldn't happen' - is just choosing to live in a 'cloud-couckoo land'. I feel that given your concern on so many issues that you would not tolerate this in the real world - without a concerted attempt to 'get to the bottom of it' or to change it. However, I am often wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:38 AM

Well written and stated Ron. As to your last statement, anonymous posting and the like can be frustrating and perhaps you are right. Consider too that perhaps you are not. The real situation at the 'Cat really has little to do with it in most cases because the overwhelming majority of those using screen names are known to most others quite well. In my case you would easily find here at Mudcat all the details of my life from the mundane to the ridiculous.....and I do mean all!

When I joined back in '98, the place was a mix of real and screen names and I used the latter for no particular reason. I would have signed in otherwise had it been an issue. So many things happened both to me and at the 'Cat within the first year I was around that Spaw was as real to most members as my real name. Now, every member I talk to in person or on the phone calls me Spaw. At this point I'd be better off to change my real name to Spaw than the other way around.

The anonymous types that are abusive or rude or just here to troll and flame are easily recognized and easy to ignore. If this group wasn't so damn verbal, it would be simple to rid the place of them.....but we just can't shut up and do it!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:40 AM

Lay off Joe. He is doing an excellent job in a situation requiring an extremely delicate balance. I suspect none of the critics would like to have his job, which comes close to a classic "damned if you do, damned if you don't" conundrum. What did Lincoln say about pleasing all of the people all of the time

Was it Lincoln who also said: "if you can't stand the heat – get out of the kitchen"? Perhaps not.....

However, it was Jeri that said: Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"

For it is not a job. Joe is both a long-term contributor and well-intentioned volunteer, and it should be remembered no one is forcing him to place himself in the firing line and there is no shortage of those willing to replace him, should he ever decide to step down.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,Amazed
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:52 AM

Why don't you all go and get a fuckin life?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 06:57 AM

However, it was Jeri that said: Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"

Shambles,

when Jeri posted that you commented 'I shall keep this in mind' and I cited that sentence in your thread about minor lies. You've proven me right very soon.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:26 AM

As so often catspaw has said what needs to be said.

I think Shambles should get that white wall actually set up on his house, and invite us round to decorate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:28 AM

I will be asking for no volunteers for my wall. I was rather expecting some answers and a serious debate. As I have said, I am often wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:48 AM

Shambles...we have HAD that debate for several years.


You have made your point.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:50 AM

Shambles, the "wall" you gave as a metaphor is now others' metaphor for the forum Spaw suggested you go start up. The "decorating" suggested is about us participating in it so you can see what it's like to actually run a board.

I think the general sense peoole are indicating in their posts is that your metaphor has a flaw in it-- it's not your board, it's Max's. For you to hope to advise about it would require you to be his peer- a board owner yourself.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:36 AM

As I have said - I am often wrong. However me being wrong does not make everything else right. Posting simply to shooting me down will not change anything much - will it? I am at least putting something up to be shot at......

I think the general sense peoole are indicating in their posts is that your metaphor has a flaw in it-- it's not your board, it's Max's. For you to hope to advise about it would require you to be his peer- a board owner yourself.

I had thought that it was obvious that for the purposes of my story only, that I was Max. But I am often wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:50 AM

Shambles, I'd be more than happy to have Paw, Cletus, Buford,and the Reg Boys come over and clean your wall for you. They have plenty of chemicals left over from their failed porta-potty business, Crappers on Casters. Of course failing that they have also used Buford's whiz which is heavily endowed with the acids from Iron City beer. Let me know.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:00 AM

The anonymous types that are abusive or rude or just here to troll and flame are easily recognized and easy to ignore. If this group wasn't so damn verbal, it would be simple to rid the place of them.....but we just can't shut up and do it!!!

Many people have managed quite easily for many years to do what you find so difficult. They just do not seem to matter or generally to be much listened to. Look back over this thread alone and see all those who do this easily and as matter of course and simply request that this is generally encouraged. Why do you simply not listen to them? Why do you go on insisting that this is simply too difficult for you to manage?

These people do have the self restraint that you have found impossible for so long and the effect of their sacrifice is simply to allow the space for those (so damn verbal) who do find it impossible not to respond in kind - to do as they wish.....and still somehow attempt to maintain the high ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:43 AM

'However, it was Jeri that said: Keep in mind that perhaps the LAST person you want deleting stuff is somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"'

Consider that if that sounds incongruous to you, it may be your own perception that's wrong. Consider that you may have invented personalities for people that aren't very close to reality. One wonders why.

Spaw, your earlier post makes much sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 12:52 PM

What it sounds like to me matters very little. I am often wrong and the fault is obviously with me. It is strange how the fault is so often with anyone who may hold and express a different view.....

However, what it does sound like is a pretty good description of a volunteer. If these volunteers are very last people that 'you' want deleting stuff' one could wonder why they are the very people that are doing this and yes this could sound incongruous to many. But they would also probably be at fault and as wrong as I am.

Whoever these volunteers may be and however many of them there may be.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Jeri
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 01:25 PM

The 'fault' is that of whoever most misjudges reality.

However, what it does sound like is a pretty good description of a volunteer.

Why?
Especially considering "Whoever these volunteers may be and however many of them there may be." Isn't that nice...you don't know who they are and you've made up little personalities for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:19 PM

Ron Davies

Nader sucks. he's an ego maniac.

Voting for him is a vote for Bush. Except in many places you can't vote for him as he will not be on the ballot. He is in the same catagory as Homer Simpson when it comes to being on the ballot.

I really do not have any respect for anyone who offends so easily.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 02:23 PM

Of course, when you put graffiti on a wall you obscure the previous graffiti. If someone doesn't like what's up there, they don't need to try to get someone to go cleaning the wall, they can just write something over it. It's all essentially temporary, provisional.

The Mudcat doesn't work that way. Unless it gets removed, it stays there. Someone paints a swastika on the wall, its there for good and all, unless it gets formally scrubbed out by Joe and Co.
...............................

Shambles, man, you keep on repeating that version of the prayer about wanting the serenity to accept the things that we aren't able to change, even if maybe we'd like to, but you just won't apply it to yourself. This is, as you have said, a moderated forum, and the degree of moderation - which to me seems pretty light isn't going to change in either direction, it seems clear enough. Serenity, please... The state of being placid, tranquil, unperturbed, unruffled.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:15 PM

somebody who says "Ooh, let me do it...I WANNA do it!"

Sounds like a good description of a volunteer to me. My dictionary gives - make voluntary offer of one's service. But I am often wrong.

Especially considering "Whoever these volunteers may be and however many of them there may be." Isn't that nice...you don't know who they are and you've made up little personalities for them.

My statement is a simple fact. Joe, Jeff, you Jeri and Big Mick are pretty open about being known - others do not seem to be and there are unknown numbers of these volunteers. If stating that fact is considered as being not all that nice by you, it may not be considered as being nice by others. But, Jeri, I know you feel you have detected my dark secret, but I have made up no little personalities here for anyone at all, just the all the facts that are known to me.

I have no real interest in knowing who these volunteers may be nor any hope or wish to become one or to exert any control over anyone else's postings. However, I continue to be puzzled why on a forum which makes so much fuss about knowing who is saying what that, it is thought acceptable and necessary to have unkown numbers of anonymous volunteers at all. And why, given this, any speculation about their possible number (or personality) would be thought surprising.

Now you seem to think that I have evidenced that I somehow have a problem with reality. You are probably right and I am wrong, yet again. But with the secrecy that surrounds the identity of our volunteers - I am most other posters do not have much REAL information to go on - do we? However Jeri I am quite prepared to accept that the fault is all mine and I am a thoughly bad sort.

However, it could just be that I am not a thoughly bad sort and that I simply care a lot for Max's forum and wish to carry on contributing in the best way I can to making it the fine place that I think it still to be. I find it interesting that among all the judgement of the worth of others contributions, that are encouraged. And all the complaining about bithday, prayer threads etc and general disatisfaction - that I am the one seen to be moaning about the forum! I like it.

For the starting point for this thread (and poll) was concern about the activity that has resulted in two valued members (and possibly more) feeling that the forum was not a place that they wished to continue to contribute to. This is probably also down to me, but I don't really see that shooting me down, although fun, is actually making any positive contribution to trying to ensure that the forum becomes a place these people may feel they wish to return to.

It is the stage that these threads usually get to and for that reason, there never really is the meaningful debate that is so badly required.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 03:39 PM

Kevin get ALL of Wesley S's prayer right- will you please? It is important to get these things right if you are going to constantly refer to it. And yes it does apply to me too (again).

Grant our members and guests the serenity to accept the things they cannot change - the courage to change the things they can - and the wisdom to realise that this is a forum open to the public and that they have no control over the posts and ideas of others.

It is 'things they (or me) cannot change'. Not the things that we aren't able to change

Things are able to change and they do change all the time and sometimes you need a bit of courage to even make the effort to try and change them. When and only when you have made the effort - can you decide whether you can change them or not.

We may have no control over the posts of others and finally accepting this may bring some much needed serenity. But by setting the best example, we can have influence over the posts of others. As we can by setting a less positive one.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:07 PM

"things we cannot change" means precisely the same as "things we aren't able to change."

The only posts we control are our own, and setting a good example is indeed the best we can do. And there comes a time when protesting about a censorship which you see, and other people don't, becomes a bad example, and one that I'd hate to see followed by people with a different agenda. As it surely will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: MaineDog
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:25 PM

Let's have a separate quick-link to a category of anything-goes posts.
People who enjoy that sort thing should be free to indulge, so let them, as long as they are not disruptive.
Abusive threads should not be deleted, but moved into the proper place.
If you want to send me something abusive, kindly send me a link to it, so that I can decide whether to read it, and then I will know not to be offended if I choose to go into that place and read it.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:27 PM

masochists need not apply..............

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM

And there comes a time when protesting about a censorship which you see, and other people don't, becomes a bad example, and one that I'd hate to see followed by people with a different agenda. As it surely will be.

Just hold on - enough of this already - Perhaps Kevin you could provide some evidence for this bad example you claim that I am setting - this censorship that I see and which you (and others) claim not to?

If you really wish me to inflict this - I can certainly provide you with evidence for everything that that I have stated - it is not just a matter of my opinion, as I suspect you are well aware. A quick look at the HELP forum will probably suffice to everyone except perhaps those who are determined not to see.......

For a start - how about the volunteer whose action was defended when they even went so far as to post as a Guest to defend the editing action they had imposed on a 'cut and paste'? Taken without any prior consultation with Joe, Jeff or anyone else? Are you saying that I imagined this or is the attempt to be made to simply minimise this also and again? It may be possible that steps have been taken to ensure that this will not happen again but as it was so defended at the time, this seems somewhat unlikely and I have not seen any announcement that any measures or changes to prevent this have been taken. Have they, and what are they?

Badly -informed attempts to minimise what editing action is actually happening and why, are probably just as - if not even more harmful that any unfounded exagerated claims. But what would be the point of making any claim that you could not support with the evidence? What contention of mine do you doubt and what supporting evidence can you provide that the 'official line' - is what is always and only what is happening?

If someone has a less than positive agenda and a tough hide and wishes to follow my example. (God help the poor sod) - openess and the truth will always remain the best defence. Certainly a better one than having secret numbers of anonymous volunteers.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:13 PM

We don't ask JoeClones to consult with Joe/Jeff/Max before deleting obviously problematic things like Spam, Hate messages, racism, and personal attacks. That just wouldn't make sense. If it's obviously a serious problem, we ask that they delete it right away, and then consult with Joe/Jeff/Max for approval of the decision. If the decision is not approved, the message/thread is undeleted. Messages are not deleted to punish anybody - they're deleted to stop a problem before it gets out of hand, which is why immediate action is required.

The anonymous volunteer who deleted the item in question should not have posted a message to defend his action. His error was in attempting to explain the decision, not in posting anonymously. If any explanation is needed, it should be done by Max, Jeff, or Joe. They're the ones who approve editorial decisions.

And as I've said over and over again, such deletions are quite rare. I gave a detailed analysis in the Help Forum a couple of weeks ago. Of course, Martin got two or three personal attack messages deleted from this very thread - but ordinarily we don't have to edit quite so heavily.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:09 PM

99.9% of any attacks that I do are responses to attacks against me.
I don't believe those threads get deleted but are left to see a response.

I just like to hit back harder and with more impact.

Maybe not the Christian way, but I don't have that burden to worry about.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:52 PM

Martin--

Re: your post of 1 Sept 04 2:19 PM

I'm crushed.

But at least you realize about Nader.

Now perhaps you could read Rabbi Sol's excellent post of 31 Aug 04 6:36 PM on the Jihad thread, taking note of the references to George W. Bush and to the "Christian" Right, now hand in glove with Mr. Bush.

By the way, I was delighted to see your post on the "Do All Musical Acts Have To Sing?" thread. Couldn't agree more.

It's time to bury the hatchet.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:18 PM

No, problem with that.

Stay cool.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: GUEST,GROK
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:06 AM

We now have peace in our time. That's a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 02:12 AM

Joe perhaps it is just time for a little 'reality' and less 'stonewalling'. If certain aspects of your editing policy have changed, it is not weakness to state this openly.

If some things have been reviewed and changed (even a little) in the light of experience, stating this would been seen and welcomed by most as a sign that some of our comments, suggestions and concerns will at least be taken on board, even if you may not personally be in favour of them.

At the same time as imposing your judgement and editing other people's posts based on this - you also have strong views about what you like and do not like and you feel you have every right to express these. That may be acceptable to some? However, it may lead posters to believe that only comments, suggestions and concerns that comform to yours have any chance of actually happening. Prehaps a few specific questions can be answered here?

Will the routine deletion of entire threads continue because volunteers 'can't be bothered' - only to delete what they judge to be the 'offending' posts or in future will deltions always be confined only to the 'offending' contributions?

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:20 AM

Things go wrong sometimes, Shambles, and, given the number of threads and posts it'd be amazing if they didn't. Big deal. By and large this aspect of the Mudcat is managed extremely well, so far as I can see.

I have posted pretty often, and got tangled up in some fairly controversial threads, sometimes expressing opinions that some people disagree with very strongly. If there was a serious problem here about over-censorship and immoderate moderation, I think I'd definitely have run up against it - and I haven't. I've often looked at the Help forum, and the instances cited don't add up to very much, so far as I can see.

Anyway, I'm off to Wallingford Bunkfest now over the weekend, to get some music in. I think getting some music in is what we probably all need to do...

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:06 AM

Grok--

Hope you don't mean 1938. It need not be 1938.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:53 AM

>Badly -informed attempts to minimise what editing action is actually happening and why, are probably just as - if not even more harmful that any unfounded exagerated claims. But what would be the point of making any claim that you could not support with the evidence? What contention of mine do you doubt and what supporting evidence can you provide that the 'official line' - is what is always and only what is happening?<

Kevin said:
If there was a serious problem here about over-censorship and immoderate moderation, I think I'd definitely have run up against it - and I haven't. I've often looked at the Help forum, and the instances cited

It was exactly because of such ill-informed (if sincere) defensive postings that I have made a point of establishing the firm evidence that will support every claim that I have made here. For if such evidence is not supplied - the defenders (in a usually blind defence) will demand to see it or they will dismiss it as a generalisation. I have requested the evidence from you to support your claim and you have not provided any. But what exactly is your claim? Not that the firm evidence I refer to is not there - for you have already given evidence yourself here of such an instance.....!

Your unsupported claim is simply to minimise all these instances by saying they: don't add up to very much, so far as I can see.
Which to my mind is a bit like ignoring the pain of the individual victim and saying that just a little bit of rape never did anybody any harm, that rape is acceptable if you don't see much of it and shit happens!

Now that is a matter of opinion, to which you are (still just) entitled to express here. However it does not get rid of the firm evidence that I have provided that others can decide their own opinion from. It does seem to me, to be very much out of line with your caring thinking on so many other topics. Your care in this instance would seem only to for those who inflict the injustice that you accept IS happening - rather with the victim. The censor here has a choice as to whether they volunteer to place themselves in the position to be judged or criticised for imposing the censorship based on their judgement. The poster suffering the imposition - has no such choice, they just discover their contribution to have been judged and deleted.

If and when the poster's only offence is only to have the bad luck to have posted a positive contribution to an entire thread that is deleted, along with all its posts, because the volunteer did not judge that it was worth the time and effort to ensure that only the 'offending' posts were deleted - is just this one such example of "over-censorship and immoderate moderation," - just one too many????????

I would rather have many 'offensive' posting remaining on the forum (for ever for me and others to use our oen edit buttons and ignore) than accept that even one contribution invited here by Max, is deleted simply for lack of care.

I suspect that on other issues - you may agree. With all respect Kevin, is it not really up to the poster who has had editing action imposed upon them to decide whether this 'adds up to very much' and not you?

Many of the examples I referred to in the HELP forum (and elsewhere) and have followed up on, start off with a surprised poster asking where their contribution has gone, after having judgement and editing action imposed upon them. To my mind if not yours, these posters wishes do 'add up to very much'. In nearly every case - I have gotten rather tired of keep reading (after the damage has been done) that 'this or that volunteer should not have done this or that'. And that 'the correct procedure should have been this or that'.

We all screw up but we all hope that we learn from this and correct what is causing the screw-up. As I have said, I have given up long ago in expecting our forum to be free of censorship and concentrated on damage limitation, for if it is to be done - this sensitve issue has to be done right, it has to be seen to be done right, to have some clear and consistent aim and to be open to suggestion and review - if it is to be defended in any way.

We do all screw-up. It is as well to first accept that and to find out the true situation before setting out on a defence based mainly on the fact that the cock-ups you are defending were well-intended and caused by good people. I have never doubted this but I wonder why there needs to be all this secrecy.

However, If the postings of equally good people are being lost because volunteers cannot be bothered to sort out the 'offending' posts and continue to delete entire threads - I greatly fear that it won't be long before all the good people join Jerry, Art and the others. And you and I Kevin will be left here trying our best to talk to ourselves - whilst the 'vandals' carry on as before and our postings are deleted by unknown numbers of unknown volunteers, just because we were unlucky to post in the same thread as our 'vandals'.

Subject: RE: BS: Poll - Stop Flaming and Abusive posting
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 11:13 AM

We've lost a good one