BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: olddude
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 07:24 PM

i like corn bread, i don't like cream corn in a can however

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 07:33 PM

I see now........If Pete can do it then why can't you do it Conrad? Sure......you have the same rights regarding censorship so you can appeal to your target audience in ways they can sing along with! I get it!!! So let's do Pete's "Sailing Up, Sailing Down" with one of your audiences! Go ahead Man.....Go for it!!!

Blowing Up (blowing up)
Burning Down (burning down)
Blown up, Burnt down
All across the country
We're killin' Commies, Jews, and Niggers
All along the way
You can think we're white trash now
But we're proud to be the K-K-K


Lemmee know how it goes for you Conrad.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:40 PM

Most of us hate somebody or some thing.

Is there anyone who doesn't hate the cowards who put their jobs before the lives of a million men women and children?

Sorry that was the "liberal democratic" government of Great Britain!

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:42 PM

Here's a little something by Pete:

You know this language tha we speak
Is part german , latin and part greek
Celtic and arabic all in a heap,
Well amended by the people in the street
The choctaw gave us the word "okay";
"vamose" is a word from mexico way.
And all of this is a hint i suspect of what comes next.

Chorus:
I think that this whole world
Soon mama my whole wide world
Soon mama my whole world
Soon gonna be get mixed up.
Soon mama my whole world
Soon mama my whole wide world
Soon mama my whole world
Soon gonna be get mixed up.

I like polish sausage, i like spanish rice,
And pizza pie is also nice
Corn and beans from the indians here
Washed down by german beer
Marco polo traveled by camel and pony,
He brought to italy, the first macaroni
And you and i as well we're able,
We put it all on the table

(chorus)

There were no red-headed irishmen
Before the vikings landed in ireland
How many romans had dark curly hair
Before they brought slaves from africa?
No race of man is completely pure,
Nor is anyone's mind, that's for sure
The winds mix the dust of every land,
And so will woman and man.

(chorus)

This doesn't mean we will all be the same,
We'll have different faces and different names
Long live many different kinds of races
It's a difference of opinion that makes horse races
Just remember the rule about rules, brother
What could be right for one could be wrong for the other
And take a tip from la belle france: "viva la difference!"

(chorus)

Now, we wouldn't want to censor you; would you like to put in something from a different political perspective?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:47 PM

Get a grip guys.....look what Bush accomplished, without jackboots or even a moustache!
We have and will again massacre millions, if it is in our interests to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:50 PM

Waitaminute, waitaminute!!!!

As I recall, the network tried to censor Seeger. The song was "Knee Deep in the Big Muddy." The Smothers Brothers put their foot down and insisted that Seeger be allowed to sing it.

So who's trying to censor who, here, eh?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 09:18 PM

Actually Don, Pete was WAIST deep in the Big Muddy when the damn fool said to move on.

Spaw (;<))

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 09:40 PM

the question is did pete or smothers ever refuse to have a person from pro war persepctive or for that matter anti communist perspective on the same stage/programme?

Then again die either of the three ever sing a pro war song anywhere to provide a sense of balance?

I was not pro war but have a feeling that one side stole the show and the audience.

I think the story was that he was kept off the show initially but a good time later got in.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 10:21 PM

Right, Spaw! Back to the anatomy chart!

Back during WW II, I remember as a kid hearing songs like "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" (!), and a re-up of "Over There" (song from WW I) which may have seemed to be pro-war. But really they were saying, "Let's get this damned thing over with!"

But hardly "pro-war" in general. Certainly not in the same way that "The Green Fields of France" is anti-war. Many of the songs I recall hearing during WW II were like those sung by English songstress Vera Lynn:   "When the Lights Come on Again All Over the World," "The White Cliffs of Dover," and "We'll Meet Again." During the Korean "Police Action," I'm told that Teresa Brewer's "'Til I Waltz Again with You" was a great favorite of American troops in Korea.

All of these songs display a longing for the war to be over.   Most anti-war songs have more to do with the evils of war in general. Something to be avoided. Somehow, I can't really imagine a song that favors war in general. It would have to be pretty bizarre, not to mention a bit—sick.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 10:33 PM

Here's a pro-war song, Don:

"Stand Navy out to sea
Fight our battlecry
We'll never change our course, so
Vicious foe steer shy-y-y-y!
Stand Navy out to sea
Anchors away!
Sail on to victory
And sink their bones to Davy Jones! Hooray!"

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:05 PM

Her's a list Vietnam-related songs from the DT. You guys fight over 'em.

0.8909 - THE FIELDS OF VIETNAM
0.8510 - BALLAD OF THE UNKNOWN SOLDIER
0.8351 - GHOST ADVISORS
0.8347 - TALKING VIETNAM POT-LUCK BLUES
0.8169 - LAMENT
0.8169 - FEEL LIKE I'M FIXIN' TO DIE RAG
0.8169 - 9420 WOGAN TERRACE
0.7967 - PUFF THE MAGIC DRAG-ON
0.7967 - I WAS ONLY 19 (A WALK IN THE LIGHT GREEN)
0.7967 - STRAFE THE TOWN AND KILL THE PEOPLE
0.7967 - SPECIAL FORCES SONG
0.7967 - JINGLE BELLS (Vietnam)
0.7967 - FOURTEEN DAYS LEAVE
0.7967 - DON'T TAKE MY COUNTERPART AWAY
0.7967 - DASHING THROUGH THE SKY
0.7742 - THERE'S A WALL IN WASHINGTON
0.7742 - TOUCH A NAME ON THE WALL
0.7742 - ROSE OF VIETNAM
0.7742 - THE BALLAD OF JAKE AND 10-TON MOLLY
0.7742 - MAKIN' WEAPONS
0.7742 - HELLO, CAM RANH TOWER
0.7742 - CADENCE COUNT (3)
0.7742 - AFTER THE WAR
0.7742 - YOUR DAUGHTERS AND YOUR SONS
0.7742 - YELLOW ROSE OF SAIGON
0.7742 - THIS COWBOY'S HAT
0.7742 - THEY CALL ME A MACV ADVISOR
0.7742 - THE OLD MAN'S TALE
0.7742 - THE BUG-OUT BALLAD (MOVING ON)
0.7742 - THE BALLAD OF THE CO VAN MY
0.7742 - TCHEPONE
0.7742 - SORRY ABOUT THAT
0.7742 - SIX CLICKS
0.7742 - SEAN SULLIVAN
0.7742 - RED RIVER VALLEY (2)
0.7742 - NAPALM STICKS TO KIDS
0.7742 - MONTAGNARD SERGEANT
0.7742 - MACV MARCHING SONG
0.7742 - LUANG PRABANG
0.7742 - IT'S HARD TO BE HUMBLE (2)
0.7742 - GHOST ADVISORS II
0.7742 - FRIENDLY FAC AND GREEN BERET
0.7742 - FORT DIX STOCKADE
0.7742 - YOUR FLAG DECAL WON'T GET YOU INTO HEAVEN ANYMORE
0.7742 - COME AND JOIN THE AIR FORCE (2)
0.7742 - COLONEL NIGHN
0.7742 - BORN ON THE FOURTH OF JULY
0.7742 - BIG MUDDY
0.7742 - BATTLE HYMN OF LT. CALLEY
0.7742 - BALLAD OF THE GREEN BERETS
0.7742 - BALLAD OF CORDS
0.7742 - 50,000 NAMES

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:03 AM

Geeziz Conrad.....Are you really this friggin' stupid? Tell me its all an act huh? Damn............

"the question is did pete or smothers ever refuse to have a person from pro war persepctive or for that matter anti communist perspective on the same stage/programme?"

Why? Its their party ain't it? Do you think you'd be well received at a Concours D'Elegance with one of your piece of shit artcars? Just in case you think you would be, let me assure you that you would NOT!

"Then again die either of the three ever sing a pro war song anywhere to provide a sense of balance?"

Are you insane? Again numbnuts, WHY????? There is no law that makes them put on the other side.........geeziz........

"I was not pro war but have a feeling that one side stole the show and the audience."

Well duh...........do you think? Might there be some good reason for that?

Try the cornbread Conrad and shut up.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:17 AM

Cliché from the Sixties:

"What if they gave a war and nobody came?"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:03 AM

Conrad seems think the Smothers Bros. and Seeger were supposed to give equal "airtime" to the "opposition" ala political debates before an election. If they are the only ones he can think of to deride for presenting their views and, obviously, finding plenty of audiences for them, I cannot imagine what premise he would use to defend some of today's media, let alone some of the neo-nazi thugs who do have their own hate-filled songs and concerts. Does he really think they should be on stage to provide a "balance" to the likes of the iconic Seeger?

Perhaps equal time should have been given to bands which sing such "folk" music as the Grinded Nig (Texas) song "Splatterday, Nigger Day":    "Drive around in my van/We want to kill a nigger/They are in the city/Follow one into the alley/We all attack the nigger/He has seen his last day."

Take a look at Neo-Nazi Hate Music - A Guide. If you can stand it, pay particular attention to the last few paragraphs re' the politicization of their music. Do you think they would, or should, give equal time at their concerts to Seeger and others?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 07:03 AM

I would never say that any artist had to be open to the songs of other points of view only that being balanced was healthy for folk music in general over the long haul.

Why aren't there so many anti war songs?
Could it be that those writing them were not welcomed>?

Interesting, the attitude that just because my view is right and some people agree with me I can limit consideration of music to songs singing my point of view.

Folks- Music is art, songs are artworks first and political statements marginally. Why focus on only one dimension of an artwork.

Its like a painting of Christ- you may oppose the concept of Christ, you may not be a christian, you may oppose religion. Does that mean that that a picture of christ done by an old master is not beautiful.

Interesting that some on this thread would be joining those in Afghanistan out there blowing up centuries old brilliantly created statues of the Buddha.

Its easy to argue that the received view should have freedom like seeger to the smothers brothers producers. It is more difficult to extend as is required, freedom of inclusion and welcome to opposing viewpoints howerver, when we welcome everyone to the tent we are on the best path.

No you don't have to invite people you dissagree with but it would be the courageous right thing to do.

For all I know smothers, and seeger valued the music more than politics and invited and included the opposition. Anyone have statistics on this>?

Takes all voices to sing in the choir and keep music above petty political swamps.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 07:32 AM

Why aren't there so many anti war songs? What hole have you been hiding in?

Songs are artworks first and political statements marginally. You're kidding, right?

Interesting that some on this thread would be joining those in Afghanistan out there blowing up centuries old brilliantly created statues of the Buddha. Can you name one?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bettynh
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:50 AM

I remember seeing Pete on the Smothers Brothers show - he came on, started, got knee deep in the Big Muddy, and there were "technical network difficulties" as he headed to waist deep. The difficulties were "fixed" with the end of the song. The documentary did seem a bit muddled about what exactly happened.

I do not want to listen to pro-war music every time I hear anti-war music, or anti-God music every time I hear pro-God, or anti-global warming every time I hear pro-environment, or Creationist every time I hear Darwin. The need for "fair and balanced" has been run over by insanity and I'm done with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:49 AM

Please note Conrad old dick......I am not alone in wondering what your problem is, Can you not see?

Wait......Maybe I have it figured out. You are trying to show us what a grand and magnanimous spirit you are and that we are poor and cowardly fools for not embracing the entire spectrum of possibilities!!! Is that it? Did I get it right?????

Nah........I think the real problem is that you're a friggin' nutjob so out of touch that you will do anything to have your view embraced by all and have your dimbulb, warmongering, racist, and hate-filled songs heard by them.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 10:11 AM

"I would never say that any artist had to be open to the songs of other points of view only that being balanced was healthy for folk music in general over the long haul."

So you must think that people like Francis Child was being fair and balanced with his collection? Do you honestly believe that collectors of folk songs weren't filtering their work through their own moral beliefs?

Conrad brings up a point about seeing beauty in a painting of Christ by the old masters, yet at the same time he is not allowing himself to see the same beauty in a protest song.   You let the politics cloud your artistic sensibilities.

Conrad also asks the question of whether or not the Smothers Brothers denied airtime to pro-war songs. That completely misses the point. The idea of presenting opposing views is not the responsibility of the person standing on the soapbox, it is the responsibility of those who provide the soapbox to stand on.

To be honest, CBC had every right to decide what to allow on their network - the issue wasn't free speech but rather censorship.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 10:52 AM

Ron, I think you meant "CBS," at least that's the network I watched the Smothers Bros. on.:-) (Maybe it's a plot by the Canucks to take over...inculcating us all with CBC references all over the board!)

Hey, all! I shall have a tent party...ya'll come and meet those Uber Alles fellahs...I'll bet they'll just love hearing our fav. songs...maybe we can even get them to dance to Hava Nagila! That's right, everyone is welcome in this tent!

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:04 AM

No not that extreme in the area of balance approaching balance or giving the impression of overal balance would be good enough.

Yes once again smothers and seeger are in the right when they design their programming according to their interests.

Is the narrow view resulting in audience and genre branding good for folk music No.

Presenters imho - those entrusted with media power should be responsible in that they should try to open what are essentially variety programs to the widest possible range of political outlook.

Was the power of music used to exclude political points of view? Maybe dont know. Someone should study this. Seems to me hard to complain that your song can't be played but at the same time make sure that others with opposing views can not put their material on the air space you control.

Yes one can do a themed show- trouble is that in the case of smothers and often with seeger shows were presented as variety shows or open shows but none the less they projected only one point of view. Did smothers ever include pro war material or anti civil rights material? Did seeger ever share the stage with pro war or anti civil rights folks?

The public airwaves and public stages are powerful positions in society. If you are having a themed series- fine say so- "the smothers brothers free culture, anti war, show"

As for collectors yes - I am very familiar with collection self censorship. That is what this thread is in part about. Self censoring of music that is available on limited public airways and stages.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:27 AM

There seems to be some sort of tacit assumption by most of the membership who post here that Conrad is...

a Neo-Nazi
someone who hates all minorities and wants to see them destroyed
a rabid right winger, possibly a KKK member
a vicious sociopath
a hatemonger of the first water
a person undeserving of courtesy, patience or mercy
someone who ought to be made a complete outcast
a handy target for ridicule
perhaps a secret werewolf or child abuser? ;-)


I'm puzzled by this, since I don't know Conrad very well, and I have no idea why most of the oldtimers on this forum endlessly engage in what I would term "a swarming" whenever he lifts his head out of the foxhole, as it were, and dares to post here. (?)

What the hell is it all about?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:34 AM

It has become a folk tradition!

This infact is the general reaction of those who find their comfortable status quo interrupted by thought.

A good indication that discussion is on the right track.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:01 PM

"Presenters imho - those entrusted with media power should be responsible in that they should try to open what are essentially variety programs to the widest possible range of political outlook."

That is correct, sort of.   The FCC, at the time, did have regulations called the Fairness Doctrine that were supposed to mandate that broadcasters present programs on controversial subjects and provide fair and balanced coverage.   The Smothers Brothers brothers WERE an alternate political outlook at the time. There is also evidence that CBS was pressured by the White House to censor the program.   There was programming that aimed toward the right, and no one was protesting that. I recall groups like Up With People and songs from Barry Sadler getting significant airplay and television exposure.


"Is the narrow view resulting in audience and genre branding good for folk music No."

Wrong. Folk music comes out of a community. The community creates it and adopts it. It is what it is. Whaling songs, mining songs, cowboy songs, AND protest songs are a reflection of the community from which it was spawned. The FACT that the left embraced folk music and the output was adopted by the community IS a sample of the times and the community. IF we were walking around singing pro-war songs, that would be a reflection of the times and community - but it was not.

Protest songs are what they are. If you do not care for the style, you are not required to listen. Sea chanties do not interest everyone either.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM

L.H., for the love of God, this turkey is advocating that to have a nice, big, healthy folk music scene, we should welcome in a "fair" share of neo-natzi skinheads with their hate music. He's going on that the historic tendency of folk music to reflect humane values constitutes a one-sided political "agenda" that would better be balanced out from the "other side". There really is such a thing as being so "open minded" that you let your brains fall out.

"Interesting that some on this thread would be joining those in Afghanistan out there blowing up centuries old brilliantly created statues of the Buddha" Why ofcourse we would, Conrad; why shouldn't we? After all, historically, Buddhism has been largely a faith embraced by non-white people.
Conrad, you really need to get a better grade of tinfoil for your hat>

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:19 PM

Geeziz Conrad.....Are you really this friggin' stupid? Tell me its all an act huh? Damn............

"the question is did pete or smothers ever refuse to have a person from pro war persepctive or for that matter anti communist perspective on the same stage/programme?"

Spaw, Conrad, funny that you should mention this.

I am involved in a situation with an organization with Pete and at present there is a heated discussion over whether or not to hire the Barraoille Whalers for our festival. Basically it is a discussion over whether to hire people who have peformed politically incorrect acts, from which they have retired, or to exclude them from performing at the festival.

The PC's do not want them because they are controversial. It is being couched as a matter of avoiding protest and keeping ticket sales up. Those of us who support hiring them consider that many primay sources are politically incorrect but that their value as primary sources outweighs their controversiality.

The Festival Director decided to hire them.

Back to the point: Would a right wing group, such as the Tea Baggers or fundamentalist Republicans [Yes, I know that is more than a little redundant.] hire someone who does not follow their political line to perform at one of their fund raising events?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:47 PM

Yes, Frogprince, I agree that his overall point regarding folk music performances seems pretty damn silly. ;-) Granted! But so what? How big a deal can that be?

But how does this equate to Conrad himself being, as I listed before:

a Neo-Nazi
someone who hates all minorities and wants to see them destroyed
a rabid right winger, possibly a KKK member
a vicious sociopath
a hatemonger of the first water
a person undeserving of courtesy, patience or mercy
someone who ought to be made a complete outcast
a handy target for ridicule
perhaps a secret werewolf or child abuser? ;-)
In any case, clearly a veritable monster who should be attacked upon sight!

I ask simply because I am genuinely puzzled by the furious vendetta that so many of you here seem to go on the moment Conrad posts about anything at all...I mean, how can this one guy with a few oddball opinions be such a threat to our collective existence here? Why do a number of people here reserve a special form of personal vitriol for him? Why are they so concerned about Conrad on a very personal level? Why does Spaw continually stalk Conrad on this forum, apparently for the sheer joy of verbally abusing and assaulting him at every possible chance? He obviously enjoys doing it. ;-) Would someone else's enjoyment of doing the same king of thing to Spaw or to Kat or to you or to me be seen in the same way?

What is the point of this collective oldtimer gangbang/mindfuck of Conrad every time he dares to post here about anything? How can one eccentric man be made to serve as a whipping boy for all your collective fantasies of all that is politically evil?...and is that a healthy thing to engage in? Does Conrad merit this degree of negative attention?

What happened? Did he moon all of you once at the Getaway or something? Did he piss on the Mudcat Constitution? I'm puzzled, and I'd like to know.

Or is it all some kind of huge in-joke which I'm not in on because I wasn't here when it started? Man, I hope so. Otherwise, I think there are a few people here who need counseling or something.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:08 PM

This whole brewha comes out of an explicit effort by the BNP to coopt English folk music as a tool for the promotion of virilent racism. A lot of decent people over there are trying to counter that. Conrad has been taking every possible tack, over and over, to argue against their efforts: "it's unfair, it's a one-sided political agenda, it's not good for the over-all health of the folk music scene". For some "silly" reason, this constant harping has made a lot of us more than a little suspicious as to Conrad's own
"silly" stance, and whether he is a person we would want to associate with.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: frogprince
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:25 PM

A few years ago, at a public banquet, I was seated by a man who mentioned that he would like to obtain a copy of the movie "Birth of a Nation". It never occured to me to judge him, or make any assumptions about his politics, on the basis that he wanted to see that highly significant bit of movie history for himself. Then he went on to say that, while the KKK was originally founded for a good and necessary purpose, he would have to admit that it had sometimes gotten a little out of hand. Somewhere along there I began to suspect that he was a rather "silly" person.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:27 PM

Ron-

"Wrong. Folk music comes out of a community"

Yes and no.

Prior to war, civil rights, alt lifestyles issues several important dimensions of our world opened the ears if you will of a new generation.

Very complex.

Part rebellion against urbanization - anything non tech anti tech non urban would do.

Part rebellion against two generations of musical tastes that of their grandparents and of their parents.

What was the old music- commercial, crosby, sentatra....of the grand parents tin pan alley. Manufactured hits, commercialism- anything anti comercialism would do =music of the people

Perhaps going back to the ancient song hall a bit of a retro look- the days of the follow the bouncing ball (still seen in pizza chains in the 70s) desire to sing and not be sung at.

They could have turned to jazz but it was far too abstract and additionally within the fifties possibly a bit of something from the shaddows- night club, drugs, tobacco and possibly a bit on the far side of the racial divide....too alt culture

Lots of other things happened as well....but many dimensions make the receptivity for group change.

So the ears were open to a product to fit them. Folk music was that product. However those with the power of possessing the stages and media provided a product, their personal product flavored with their interests- as seger says lefty politics, civil rights. (nothing wrong with those issues or their freedom to do so) So they got the product but in a flavor manipulated by those with the power who as we have seen generally flowed politically one way.

Any folk music would have done the job. There was much in Seegers work that was popular as his political however he only had one flavor of political and so did most of those with the power of the media and the stages. So as the issues came along into the ears went the only thing that was available and out came then your community. Lefty single side single issue folks. Behold the power of folk music a phrase seeger used a few times in the documentary.

Now when the issues were resolved and the sounds of the community marketed and packaged in the great american age set market place america moved on to other issues and Under Regan heightened community and the patriotism that lasted to the first gulf war. People in this new community seeing only the one sided one issue culture in the previous generation found it branded and the brand was not of their liking so folk music wound down.

That is why at the concert of seeger related lefty music at Glen Echo the audience was predominantly over 56.

No you dont have to have balance but if you refrain from branding the entire community and genre things have more potential for growth.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:51 PM

Frogprince - I see. So how long has this brouhaha (with Conrad) been going on? It seems like a big waste of energy to me.


Conrad - You are quite correct that the folk music movement was a movement against the music of our parents (Sinatra, Big Band, Tin Pan Alley, etc), and that it contained the various other protest aspects you mention...hostility to urbanization...affection for old country ways of living...and so on...

It wasn't that folk music caused all that, but rather that folk music was tailor-made to express varous forms of restlessness and rebellion of the time, that's all, and young people were after all resisting the values of their elders. Very plainly.

I detested Sinatra, Big Band music, and Tin Pan Alley. I also detested the USA's imperial wars. I would have done so regardless of whether there was a folk music movement or not, but folk music certainly helped to bring together people who felt as I did at the time, and it strengthened those feelings in people.

It seems to have been a natural evolution of society at that time.

Now, Bob Dylan, for one, started out fully embracing the leftist radical sort of ethic of the folk music movement, and was deeply in it through the period of his first 3 albums...but he soon began to become uncomfortable with it, because he instinctively resisted the idea of becoming "the spokesman" of anyone's political agenda. So he stepped away from it beginning around 1964-5, started writing more personally oriented material, and that really upset his audience who looked upon his departure from the overtly political music as a betrayal.

They were mistaken. He didn't want to be used as other people's poster boy, that's all. And I think he had begun to feel that people who set out to "change the world" are largely caught up in their own ego enhancement and are usually fooling themselves. I would say that that is the case...in many cases....but not in all. There are some people who devote their lives to political action in a very real way, and are not fooling themselves. In other words, they're doing it for the right reasons. Most people do it just for the big rush of hearing themselves talk, in my opinion, but a few people do it because they genuinely have real compassion for humanity and are willing to put themselves on the line for others. Joan Baez is one such person, in my opinion.

Dylan's concern seems to have been primarily to express himself in a way that spontaneously made sense to him and fulfilled him. I can't argue with that. He's not a crusader, he's a writer. He often writes great material that will inspire many, and that's his job, but it's not his job to man the barricades. If you want someone to man the barricades, look to Joan Baez. She'll do it.

There's nothing unusual about the fact that modern folk music has an aging audience which is growing smaller. The same is true of Sinatra's music, Big Band music, oldtime country music, rock n' roll, and every other form of popular music we've ever seen.

It happens. Things change. Old styles fade out and new styles come along. Don't worry about it. It will cease entirely to be a problem for you and me and everyone else here on the day that each one of us dies....and the world will continue merrily on and produce new musical styles, and the same things will happen all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:58 PM

Hawk....If the question is, am I a competitive bully....yes....always have been. But I argue and disagree with pdq, Doug R, and others that I don't treat that way do I?   Know why?

None of the others are hypocrites and Conrad is the hypocrites hypocrite. Everything is OKAY! with Conrad but can't we just give each side a chance??????   Conrad came along here with a lot of good research in Irish music from the orange side and then lobbied for how wonderful it was even though he wasn't that way himself but....Then he would go on and prove he was then deny it. I know where Doug stands......I know where pdq stands.....and if I disagree as I often do, so be it. But Conrad never "means" it for himself, he just wants to point out the error of our ways......yeah, right. Someone can be the biggest racist or whatever in the world, just admit what you are....simple.

Now am I all worked up over Conrad? LOL....No, I really love it when he shows up with his latest bullshitting blather. The current one is choice!   And his last post?   Talk about gibberish.........No, he gives me some laughs but I am also not going to let him pull his "not me" routine.

RON OLESKO: If you can translate Conrad's latest, I can't wait to hear your take.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:59 PM

Songs are songs, there is nothing that I know of in any free nation to stop someone from singing or writing anything they want. Getting someone else to listen or buy or hire you to perform is another matter entirely ... Maybe the reason Pete is so revered is that he hits a spark inside most people of the concept of right and wrong ... maybe it is also his skill as a musician and his connection to the common masses, Maybe that is why he is Pete. However, anyone else is fully free to express their voice in song also ... that does not mean that a promoter who really is in it to make a living and a profit will hire them or even listen to their music ... There is no "fair" in music business nor should there be .... It is all about quality and all about skill and all about appeal and all about staying alive financially.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:04 PM

The dirty, 4 letter, "F" word in this language is not fuck.......fair is the dirty word.

A fair is a place you go to see quilts and cakes and tractors and hogs. YOu can eat grasy fried everything and watch a horse pull or a demo derby there sometimes too. If you live in the midwest you might even have a Combine Demo Derby!

Fair as a concept of equality is a cop out. It has no place in any business or even most other enterprises.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Bettynh
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:04 PM

Conrad, I have to again wonder how old you are.

The recordings of the Carter family and other early local musicians had a huge influence as well. Pete Seeger was joined by Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Doc Watson, and a flood of others who capitalized on that early music. Not to mention what happened when it influenced English musicians with skiffle. Pete's audience has always been tiny compared to Elvis's.

Audiences are self-selecting, aren't they? The Dixie Chicks' audience changed dramatically a few years ago, primarily because of "those with the power of the media and the stages." They have a huge audience now. And it's not Republican.


So I guess the real question is:



What is folk music?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: olddude
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:26 PM

when i was a kid my dad would say as soon as you figure out life isn't fair the better prepared you will be for adulthood. he was right as usual, most of the musicians on this site are better than 90% of the commercial offerings today imho   it sure isn't fair they get no recognition, but it is life

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM

The receptivity of the sounds, feelings styles of folk music was created by the environment- many many factors.

People were ready to adopt something that provided those feelings to them.

When all of the above mentioned back country inspired and foreign inspired music turned up it was therefore popular because the qualities it possessed were the qualities that the ears of the next generation looked for.

Many of those who were in possession of the stages and media flavored folk music in a particularly lefty, civil rights way (nothing wrong with those issues) they could do it because they were in power- just like every group in power can set the tone. These folks provided only one channel most of the time to a receptive population.

When the major issues developed they were in command of the ears and went full steam ahead- their concerts no different than any other political rally or propaganda event.

The question is did they lock out the opposing view because of their possession of the media and the stages and power of music?

Anything folk would have been ok for the audiences the essential qualities were there. Seeger did play stuff that was not political however whenever the songs were political they were one flavor.

Of course when the issues came up civil rights, war etc....those fed the single political line naturally followed but more importantly the entire gnere was branded.

yes issues come and go however, folk music has to find a more efficient pathway through them so that it does not have to be frequently be knocked down and revived. The way forward is balance and welcoming of all sides even if you have to work to invite them and bring them all together. If you believe your issues are correct you will not mind sharing the stage and the media.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:31 PM

Okay, Spaw, I get your drift... ;-) I can certainly see how much fun you are having every time Conrad launches a thread. Strangely enough, it doesn't seem to bother him. Maybe he enjoys the attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:34 PM

"RON OLESKO: If you can translate Conrad's latest, I can't wait to hear your take."

My take is that Conrad is using his own opinion to define "folk music" and not recognizing that the music that grew out of the folk revival is not FOLK MUSIC with capital letters, but rather a type of folk music that represents a very specific community and era. It also has commercial roots, and we could really go off on a tangent as to whether or not it is a true genre of "folk music".

I also think he is failing to recognize that the right wing music he is seeking exists in other forms and genres.

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM

You start from some extremely questionable premises then traverse across the slippery slopes of poor logic to arrive at a a laughable destination. Truly one of your best efforts there!

Here's a typical Coradism relating back to my last post:

"......and media flavored folk music in a particularly lefty, civil rights way (nothing wrong with those issues).....

I just love it when you demonstrate my points for me so quickly.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:40 PM

Thank you Ron! Well done!

And Hawk.......Hey....He LOVES the attention. And I've always been willing to give it to him!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:40 PM

But then again, as Gary Larson wrote, "Suppose they gave a war and EVERYBODY came?"

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:41 PM

I have to admit that I get a warm glow in my heart whenever I imagine John Wayne getting his ass kicked by a bunch of little Asians wearing black pajamas.... ;-) (There's nothing wrong with that, is there?)

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 02:50 PM

So as the issues came along into the ears went the only thing that was available and out came then your community. Lefty single side single issue folks. Behold the power of folk music a phrase seeger used a few times in the documentary.

Conrad, you make it sound as though we were all automatons led on by the "Pied Piper-Seeger"...no brains of our own to even discern anything different OR to have our own agendas based on our upbringing, education, and experiences.

I grew up in the late 50s-through the 60s. First and foremost what was influential in my life, music-wise, was that of my family, musicians all, which included MANY genres including cowboy, big band, classical, folk and trad., jazz, my parent's favs, i.e. Arthur Godfrey, etc. Then, when I was 8 we got a tv and I heard even more "folk" on the Andy Griffith show and others, only a bit later on the Smothers Brothers' as well as Ed Sullivan who didn't have any discernible agenda as far as I was concerned...just great variety even while he was considered, among some, as a kind of figure to poke fun at BUT had good music regardless...first to have the Beatles, etc. There were also fun variety shows which offered a...well, a variety. There was so much music, from so many different avenues, there was no chance of a brainwashing you seem to assume took over us all. Which, in my case is kind of funny as I suppose you could find a way to claim I was completely brainwashed growing up with only one tv station available and in the wild, isolated Rocky Mtn. West. Remember that old adage, "when one assumes it makes an ass of you and me."

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM

We in Scotland, are lucky to have traditional music, which is for the most part non-political in the modern sense.

Its all about love, life, sorrow and happiness.......from the time when these things meant something tangible, when people still had a little feeling left in their souls.

Nothing to do with commercialism, self promotion, or stuffing your pissy little opinions down other peoples throats

Pete Seeger, Billy Bragg, et al....they make me fuckin laugh.
Ego's on legs.....Folk music never changed anybody's political opinions, but It can make us all feel what it's like to be alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: John P
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM

I think there are more love songs than any other type. Should they always be balanced with hate songs? Should churches be asked to include satanic music in equal amounts with the hymns? Maybe we should ask every classical concert promoter to include a few country western songs in each program?

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:09 PM

We could have more capitol letter folk as the type referred to by the person from scottland above but for the manipulation of the market place and political brand that it received.

As a result of political branding folkies are perceived as lefty and when that turns a significant number of people off who are not now perceiving "flower children, lefty, druggy hippies" in a positive light not only the market suffers but folk music at large fails to achieve what it could had the brand not been put in place.

No people are not automotons however if the only political view they hear through folk music is from leftys what else are they going to do. If they wanted to stick with folk music that was their only choice. Cultivation of a wide range of folk politico alternatives would solve this problem and help maintain and develop audience.

We will only create more of a capitol letter folk when we broaden the perception of the community and genre to include diversity and that goes for all the political issues. Don't call it censoring call it diversification.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:19 PM

Sorry Conrad, you are entitled to an opinion - but that does not mean you are correct.

If the music and audience wants to change, it will.

Folk music is what it is. People accept what they want. If there is an outcry for the type of music you request, it will come. Right now, the songs deal with issues that apparently make you uncomfortable. Fortunately, the world will keep spinning.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:25 PM

Scottland.......Its up the road in Columbus, the farm that's Scott's calls Scottland where they test their grass seeds and Weed-N-Feed and the like. I had no idea they had such a tradition of music.........


Seriously Conrad.......Fess up. You were dropped on your head as a kid weren't you? Or has your brain mushed out from the CO emissions from those P.O.S. artcars that you drive?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Seeger Smothers Party- Left=right?
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 04:30 PM

Stick your cornbread and molasses!.....Bannocks n' heather honey fur right trolls!!