Traditional singer definition

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:23 PM

Personally I don't think the singer's status in either their own community or the 'folk' community makes any difference to whether we call them 'traditional singers' or not.

The great Arthur Howard, whose large repertoires are still in evidence in the communities where he sang in the Pennines to the west of Sheffield, had at least 4 distinct repertoires for different occasions, hunt suppers, folk scene, shepherds' meets, family dos, etc.

On the other hand another great singer from the same area who was much shyer and usually only sang for his family and collectors was Frank Hinchliffe. He had a relatively small repertoire.

I don't know of anyone who doesn't treat the memories of both singers with great affection and respect. In my opinion they are both equally 'traditional singers'.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:31 PM

Here's a problem. I learned an old blues from my step-father. I recorded it. I have not heard it sung anywhere else ever. In this way, I am a traditional singer because it was passed down to me through my family. I even sing it in the style in which it was taught to me. I learned it as a young child.

The folk songs I have learned in a way that would classify me as a revivalist, not a traditionalist. Could I be both?

When Doc Watson records "Over The Rainbow" is he still a traditional singer? I think that
because of his background he is. But if he sings and records Harold Arlen/Yip Harburg is he a kind of "revivalist" singer too?

I'd say, here, Doc was both. A traditional singer and a non-traditional singer.

Or when he sings a non-traditional song, he is a non-trad singer and vice versa.

The whole point about defining what is a traditional singer is this, honoring the tradition or culture and the people who came from where the song was originally done. It's not about splitting hairs over definitions but an attempt to understand and elevate the folksong tradition by acknowledging the sources for the songs.

Lonnie Donegan, for example, was not Leadbelly, who reflected a given tradition of the isolation of the African-American singers on chain gangs..

One could argue about Burl Ives, however. Or Josh White. They had traditional roots.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 03:47 PM

"Fred Jordan was both, those songs he learned from his family....."
Sorry again Cap'n
If a traditional singer who also learned songs from the revival, learned blues from a record, music hall songs from Harry Champion records, and Beatles songs from...... would that make him/her a traditional/revival/blues/music hall/pop singer?
The term 'traditional' refers to his/her position in relation to the singing tradition, everything else is extra.
As Hilary pointed out, no singer, or very few, confined their singing to one type of song.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 04:30 PM

I disagree,jim,sowe will have to agree to differ

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 05:05 PM

The performers (in Britain anyway) who managed to straddle both their own communities and the revival community are so few and far between I think we can afford them special status for this tremendous achievement. Of course it is possible to be part of two (or more) communities at once. Surely this is undeniable. Fred is possibly the best example for England. Some of them even went as far as to be singer-songwriters as someone has already mentioned. I can't see any problem with this. It doesn't diminish their status as 'traditional singers'. As far as I'm concerned it enhances it.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 05:47 PM

Willie Scott[shepherds life]Bob Roberts[oily rigs]were traditional singers who also wrote.
FredJordan[imo] was a consummate performer

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Seonaid
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 06:10 PM

For no reason at all, I just thought of the deifnition of "folk song" that's used by Garrison Keillor:
A song you learned from somebody else, and that you remember the words to mostly.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 25 Aug 10 - 09:56 PM

1. Singing is done by the individual as part of the lifeway and is not done for money or for hire or out of any sense of obligation.

2. singing is done by the individual in informal spaces and is not scheduled.

I think that the music sung does not matter.

Folk music however is different as it relates to song history and evolution.

Learning to play or sing has no bearing. Doesn't matter how one learns the important dimension is that you do it as a lifeway, it is your tradition. Not even a hobby as hobby is something extra. Performnce also extends too far. You are traditional when you do it whenever.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:52 AM

Willie Scott[shepherds life]Bob Roberts[oily rigs]were traditional singers who also wrote.

Is it entirely inconceivable for Traditional Singers to write? I'd argue the creative urge has much to do with what a Traditional Singer does and can do with respect of the craft of creativity - see my earlier post regarding improvisation. How this intersects with The Revival is a more complex matter altogether - one thinks of how Ry Cooder's interest in the old musicians of the Beuna Vista Social Club gave them a second-life & exposure that would have been inconceivable otherwise. Where would I be without my Ruben Gonzales CDs?

Otherwise - always nice to see a mention of Bob Roberts, whose sci-fi horror story The Oily Rig is almost Zappa-esque in its humanising of The Devil. Less well known are several other songs such as Race of Long Ago and The Wheeling Gull which feature on his LP Breeze for a Bargeman (1981)- a title he would also use for his book of the same year which, somewhat paradoxically, has nothing to do with the record & only touches on folk song in passing.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 04:01 AM

Suibhne - just a small point of accuracy, from an old, unrepentant pedant: I do believe that it was the interest of a young Cuban trumpeter in the island's history which was the moving force behind locating and bringing together the old musicians who became the Buena Vista Social Club. Ry Cooder, a friend of the trumpeter, was then invited to go to Cuba and produce the album - he confirms this story himself. But, yes - without his interest and his name and presence as producer and occasional musician on the album - it might not have reached the huge audience that it did. I saw them myself in Brighton (RC was not there) and they were magnificent, with Gonzales stealing the show!

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 04:25 AM

I envy you that, Will - I missed them on (I think) two occasions owing to more pressing engagements. Such is life - Jordi Savall & Hesperion XXI were playing in Edinburgh this week too, but alas! Still, I take heart that Jordi has just released a second volume of Celtic Viol, the first volume of which I can heartily recommend to anyone with an interest in fiddles & the roots of traditional Irish & Scottish music.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 04:34 AM

My interpretation of a traditional singer, as I have explained previously, is based on the context in which he developed his music. That's not to say that all his songs must come from the same context, that, or they must all be traditional songs, or that he can't create his own.

By my understanding, Fred Jordan was a traditional singer because of the context in which he learned to sing and acquired many of his songs. It makes no difference whether he learned some songs from other singers in the same context or from Martin Carthy. It makes no difference whether he subsequently performed in the folk revival - that was not his original context, and it was not that which formed his singing (although it may have influenced it, if only by exposing him to new material).

On the other hand, my own context is that of the folk revival. I am not and never will be a traditional singer, although I sing traditional songs, and it makes no difference whether I learned a song from Martin Carthy or Fred Jordan.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 05:06 AM

SA - many thanks for the Jordi Savall link - excellent!

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 06:49 AM

Yeah - he's quite something. I'm a bit of a Savall completist and am in constant awe how he can run the world's most commercially & artistically successful Early Music Ensemble and record label (Alia Vox) without compromising one jot on musical or philosphical integrity. And the quality of product is seldom anything less than exquisite!

Otherwise...

Just looked up Bob Roberts on wiki which is worth a read in light of his other lives besides being a traditional folk singer. Maybe I even saw him on Jackanory back in 1966 - I would have been four or five, a period of my life I don't remember too clearly apart from getting lost one rainy day in Sunderland. Like Seamus Ennis he lived in various worlds, as do we all of course - hell, since when was life ever so simple as to be straightforward? Bob Roberts's various books are available from Seafarer boks Here.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 06:56 AM

The danger with long threads is that we don't read the early stuff and people who have posted early on get cheesed off when the find themselves repeating valid points again.

Within this thead are definitions of 'Traditional singer', 'Traditional song' and probably 'Traditional/context that most of us can agree on. The overlap but not entirely - hence the ongoing discussion.

Dare I suggest that one overarching feature is people singing songs to each other in small acoustic spaces because they simply like singing and listening to the songs?

Those of us doing this now have a massive collection of songs collected over a hundred years ago and another collection created between about 1960 and today. All we do is to do it.

Cheers

L in C#

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:04 AM

Howar I completely disagree with you.
Fred Jordan was both,as soon as he was not singing songs he learned from his family ,he was a revival singer ,the definition of a traditional singer is songs learned orally form his family or local community, so when he sang fields of athenry, he became a revival singer.
in the same fashion a traditional singer can also be a singer songwriter[WillieScott], that is why these labels are ridiculous.
here is aculinary comparison: Rice, It can be a dessert rice pudding, or a main course; curry.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:33 AM

"so when he sang fields of athenry, he became a revival singer."
Walter Pardon, Harry Cox, Sam Larner, Jeannie Robertson, The Stewarts, Charlie Wills... and a hundred more you could probably name, all performed in folk clubs and festivals, and all sang non-traditional songs at one time or another, some of them learned songs they had heard from revival singers - were they all revival singers?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Howard Jones
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 08:35 AM

Dick, the problem, and the point of this thread, is that there isn't a definition of a traditional singer. You are using one definition, I am using another - within our respective definitions, we are both right.

The difficulty I see in your definition is that singers always acquired new songs from outside their local community, and especially from travellers. That's how songs and tunes got passed around. To limit "traditional" singers only to songs from their family and community is too restrictive - on those grounds I doubt many would qualify, and most of those only because the tradition around them was dying out.

Whether Fred Jordan learned a song from his family, from another traditional singer, or from the revival, his approach to them was the same and it was one which was formed from his roots in the tradition.

Your rice analogy is interesting. However they are different because they are prepared differently. Rice pudding served with curry is still rice pudding.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Steve T
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM

On the matter of whether one can be both a traditional and a revival singer I find myself in agreement with Mr. Jones and Mr. Carroll in believing that the "traditional" describes the provenance of the singer rather than both their provenance and their activity at a given time. Once someone has earned the right to be called a traditional singer they should not be deprived of that accolade when they sing something that they learned from outside their own culture any more than an artist should cease to be called an artist when they are washing up the dishes.

To throw another (non-culinary) analogy back into the melting pot: an omnibus is not reclassified as a car when it is only carrying a driver and an aeroplane does not become an omnibus when taxiing its passengers along the runway.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 05:07 PM

no, if Fred had decided to take part in a local amateur Gilbert and Sullivan, or alternatively taken part in a rock and roll night and sang Rock around the clock , while he was singing either G and S, OR ROCK AND ROLL he would not have been a traditional singer.
a traditional singer is only a traditional singer wnen he is singning traditional material he learned orally, once he starts singing Rock and Roll or Jazz, he becomes a Rock Roll singer Jazz singer or LightOpera singer.
lets take Rev Gary Davis he is described as a blues and gospel singer, so he was only a gospel singer when he was singing gospel music, he was a blues singer when he sang blues[ he could not be a gospel singer when he was singing blues cos he wasnt singing gospel music.
so logically if FredJordan sang Rock Around the Clock , He was singing Rock and Roll, so he is a Rock and Roll singer.
he cannot be a traditional singer and a rock and roll singer at the same time

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 12:45 AM

Why not, Dick? I can be a retired senior teacher, a theatre critic, a former folk-music critic, a folksinger, a former goalkeeper for my school's 1st XI, a former Territorial Army officer... all at the same time. I bet you can be lots of things at once too. Who can't. The fact that one might be concentrating on one of these at any particular moment doesn't make the others vanish into the ewigkeit, surely? So Fred Jordan taking time off to sing other sorts of music from time to time didn't stop him being a traditional singer also.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 02:43 AM

The logical (?) conclusion to some of this must be: Does a 'Traditional Singer' stop being one the second he stops singing a 'Traditional Song'? Between verses, after the clapping, when eating a pie, whilst being asleep?

Dare I suggest that one overarching feature is people singing songs to each other in small acoustic spaces because they simply like singing and listening to the songs?

Those of us doing this now have a massive collection of songs collected over a hundred years ago and another collection created between about 1960 and today. All we do is to do it.

Cheers

L in C#

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 03:00 AM

"he cannot be a traditional singer and a rock and roll singer at the same time"
So when walter Pardon sang 'When The Fields Are White with Daisies' he stopped being a traitional singer?
Don't be silly Dick.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 07:42 AM

it is also to do with the style of songs the singer is singing ,a jazz singer is a jazz singer because he sings jazz songs in a jazz manner?style.
a traditional singer is a traditional singer partly because he sings traditional songs , if he had learned his songs orally from his family and they had not been traditional songs he could not be a traditional singer, supposing he had learned country and western composed songs, from his family orally that would not make him a traditional singer

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 08:04 AM

"it is also to do with the style of songs the singer is singing"
Nope - it has very little to do with style - the tradition is about the place the songs occupy in the culture of the communities they served, and, when the tradition was alive, in the conciousness of the singer.
If blues, jazz, rock, whatever had held the same significance they would have become part of the tradition.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 12:14 PM

a Traditional singer has to sing Traditional songs.., What differentiates a traditional singer from a singer of traditional songs, is that he learned them orally from his family or local community.
if a traditional singer, decides to take up another style[lets say Jazz]all the time he is performing with a jazz band, he has become a jazz singer, the songs that he is now singing are not songs he learned orally from his family, he is singing in a totally different style, possibly improvising with his voice , if we knew nothing of his background, we would define him as a jazz singer, and that is exactly what he is.
when he goes back to singing[those songs he learned orally] tradtiional songs in a different situation, he becomes a traditional singer again.   
this is why FredJordan was both a revivalist and a traditional singer, he was only a traditional singer all the time he was singing the songs he learned orally from his family.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Goose Gander
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:25 PM

Frank Proffitt was a traditional singer and musician. He sang and performed songs learned from friends and family as well as commercially-derived material. He did not cease to be a traditional singer when he sang radio ditties.

Superman was still Superman, even when he was dressed as 'Clark Kent'.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 27 Aug 10 - 01:37 PM

Steven Gerrard is still a footballer when he is sitting at home with his family watching telly. Nobody is anything ONLY when he is doing it.

~~Michael~

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:49 AM

Here's a couple of recent examples of the slipperiness of the word tradition(al), taken from an article on the Eliza/Norma CD "Gift" in the current issue of Properganda.

"Eliza resists the folk label, preferring to describe herself as a traditional singer. By which she means she is less concerned with a song's provenance than its quality, and that she'll sing whatever takes her fancy. 'All the real traditional singers did that,' she insists.

And later in the piece: "The Waterson family, like the Coppers, have their full-on ensemble and harmony singing tradition."

So: is Eliza Carthy a traditional singer when she's singing Amen Corner covers, or her own songs, or at any time at all? (Such as when she's singing songs she learned from her family.)

And do the Watersons "have" a "tradition"?

Who's first?

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 08:55 AM

quite. which proves that definitions such as traditional singer are not very important
ELIZA CARTHY IS IN MY OPINION A REVIVAL SINGER ,BUT WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS THAT SHE IS GOOD

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: r.padgett
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 09:08 AM

Well lots of interesting stuff

Eliza Carthy is a "traditionalist singer" and I believe could never be a traditional singer, as such

She could be described as a "revival" singer too from a fine family of revivalist singers

She sings many "traditional songs" from source singers and no doubt from collected printed book sources from collectors of songs

[Back from Whitby ff now!!]

Ray

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 10:35 AM

"ELIZA CARTHY IS IN MY OPINION A REVIVAL SINGER ,BUT WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS THAT SHE IS GOOD "
Don't shout Cap'n - we can hear you, even if some of us might not agree with you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:10 PM

Apolgies,Jim, caps lock

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,johnp
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:40 PM

The following http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_music, briefly summarises some of the characteristics of traditional music. Although Wikipedia needs to be treated with caution I believe it makes some good points relevant to this thread and provides useful references.
With reference to slippery definitions there is the euphemistic use of "traditional" which seems, from experience, to relate to old songs sung out of tune; particularly long ballads
johnp

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 02:47 PM

"quite. which proves that definitions such as traditional singer are not very important" – GSS

So why so much debate on who is and who isn't? And does Eliza Carthy's comment prove anything at all, other than that she has a much broader concept of "traditional singer" than most of the correspondents here? Eliza has spoken, so there's no longer any argument...

"ELIZA CARTHY IS IN MY OPINION A REVIVAL SINGER ,BUT WHAT REALLY MATTERS IS THAT SHE IS GOOD" – GSS

Surely that's a separate issue entirely?

Bit of biography here. I was born and grew up in rural Northumberland, and, like almost everybody around me, had a nodding acquaintance with Tyneside songs of the Blaydon Races, Cushie Butterfield sort. My mother sang Dance To Yer Daddy to me as an infant. Does that make me a traditional carrier of these songs? And if not, why not? I'm prepared to be disappointed...

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 03:07 PM

"My mother sang Dance To Yer Daddy"
If she'd sung 'Your Tiny Hand is Frozen' to you, would that make you an opera singer?
"By which she means she is less concerned with a song's provenance than its quality"
This is a sweeping generalisation which depends on which singer or musician you ask. The older musicians and singers around here used to make a point of telling you which songs, tunes, ways of playing/singing were or were not 'traditional. Walter Pardon proudly and often publicly declared which of his songs were 'folk', and went into long explanations on the difference between them and the music hall, Victorian, 1920s pop songs.
Suggest you read what he had to say in articals 'The Other Songs' and my reply on the Musical Traditions site archive.
In the end it has nothing whatever to do with the definition of a traditional singer.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 04:15 PM

"My mother sang Dance To Yer Daddy"
If she'd sung 'Your Tiny Hand is Frozen' to you, would that make you an opera singer?
...
She probably did. But an opera singer, alas no. But I'm talking about traditional songs, transmitted orally in a traditional milieu of family and community as part of its cultural apparatus. I've known the first verse and chorus of Blaydon Races all my life. I learned the other five verses last year, to sing in folk clubs. So can I be a traditional singer and a revival singer in the course of singing a single song?

Any tips on how to be an opera singer?

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 04:46 PM

"Any tips on how to be an opera singer? "
Probably about ten years training - then sing in an opera - sort of like being a tradional singer -a couple of generations training in a living tradition - then singing as part of one.
And Walter Pardon's conclusion - doesn't count huh?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 05:49 PM

raymond,
Like you, as mentioned above, I have a whole family repertoire of songs on my mother's side to go at, and indeed I sing many of them. One of them is a lullaby I learned in the cradle and passed on to my own children. What is certain however is if I hadn't become interested in traditional song both as a performer and a researcher those songs would have become a dim and distant memory.

I prefer to think of 'traditional singer' as a relative term lacking hard and fast boundaries of meaning. If we were both being really picky we could claim to be traditional singers in a very small way, which is vastly overshadowed by the fact that all of the people here talking about this are very much revival performers.

Yes Fred was part of the 'tradition' and a revival singer, but Id pretty much guarantee which of the two nearly all of us here would use to describe him, so no contest. The fact that most of the people whose names are known to all of us as 'traditional singers' also performed in the revival and had songs from other sources, holds little relevance here.

Some of these analogies are pretty inane and irrelevant (IMHO). If you are going to use an analogy please make sure it's appropriate and at least similar in some way to what we are discussing.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:30 PM

Apologies for any inanity or irrelevance, Steve. I'm just trying to follow the reasoning used by some of the posters on this thread, and relate it to my own experience, since it's sitting there handily.

Jim – I'm not making any claims to being a traditional singer. I'm not even claiming to be a singer. But if my mother got Dance To Yer Daddy from her mother, would that tot up to two generations in a living tradition? As for "training" in that tradition, what exactly does that involve? Who trained Fred Jordan?

Just trying to catch up...

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Aug 10 - 06:56 PM

raymond,
I wasn't criticising you specifically over the analogies. I should have made it clearer that that paragraph was addressed generally to the thread. These practically meaningless analogies are thrown in with very little thought and relevance. I'm referring to those apples and elephants and rice puddings that keep being thrown in. The references to Superman and Stephen Gerrard are of course reasonable analogies.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 05:26 AM

further thoughts after reflection on Steve's and Jim's points...

Steve: I have a whole family repertoire of songs on my mother's side to go at, and indeed I sing many of them. One of them is a lullaby I learned in the cradle and passed on to my own children. What is certain however is if I hadn't become interested in traditional song both as a performer and a researcher those songs would have become a dim and distant memory.

Me: Depends on the company you keep, perhaps. My childhood contemporaries have, I'm almost certain, little interest in "folk music" as we understand it here, but the (relatively small) number of local songs they absorbed in their formative years are not dim and distant memories. They're the songs they sing down the pub and on the terraces, and maybe even sing to their bairns. Perhaps that also answers Jim's point about "singing as a part of (a living tradition)" — these songs have an informal social function: they're not rendered as performances to a studious audience. If that isn't a "living tradition", what is it exactly?

Where I come from, analogy is something you get from food additives...

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 05:57 AM

Raymond
I have no doubt that there are hundreds of thousands of families all over Britain who could make similar claims to your own, some performing folk songs, or light or grand opera, Barry Manilow, Louis Armstrong, Beatles, Harry Champion, Gracie Fields songs......... - are they all 'traditional' - by your description they were all 'traditionally received?
If so, we may as well throw in the towel and retreat to our own individual parlours, because we can not offer audiences to the clubs anything cohesively identifiable as 'traditional'.
I, along with thousands more, arrived on the scene because I was attracted by a certain type of music. I became more deeply involved when I discovered that this music had certain characteristics and had arrived here through a certain process, which was, nearly 50 years ago, all but dead. I spent thirty odd years recording people who were, by then, little more than 'rememberers' of that tradition, the act of singing within their communities having died out, mainly in their youth.
I suggest that your family tradition has little to do with the folk song tradition that brought us all together back in the fifties.
Where did Fred Jordan get his 'training'? Where Harry Cox and Sam Larner and Phil Tanner and Tom Lenihan et al got theirs, from the same place they got their songs.
Jim Carroll

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 06:46 AM

Jim –

But I'm not talking about light opera, or Gracie Fields, or The Beatles, or about any family tradition of my own. I'm taking about a body of identifiable local songs, mostly minted in the 19th century by known authors and mostly fixed in their form but nonetheless admitting of small variations generated by oral transmission. People in Northumberland (even those not related to me) feel they own these songs and have a connection with them that they don't feel about the Gracie Fields and Lennon & McCartney songbooks. They sing them informally without, in the main, any "training". These also happen to be songs that were sung in folk clubs in the Fifties and are sung in folk clubs to this day. How, then, do they differ from "the folk song tradition that brought us all together in the Fifties"?

Okay, if it ain't in your view a pukka tradition I'm not going to pout about it. But I'm still confused as to why you don't think it is, other than that it isn't the "certain type of music" that you feel attracted to.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:02 AM

"Okay, if it ain't in your view a pukka tradition I'm not going to pout about it. But I'm still confused as to why you don't think it is, other than that it isn't the "certain type of music" that you feel attracted to."
Basically the living tradition we have researched, documented, made available in books, albums, clubs etc. is the national, regional, occupational one that has a cultural significance for a wider group than that of the family.
If you narrow it down to families you have to include in your definition "light or grand opera, Barry Manilow, Louis Armstrong, Beatles, Harry Champion, Gracie Fields songs..", otherwise, why should your family repertoire be any more significant than those who don't sing folk songs?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:52 AM

Reading between the points scoring, the nit-picking and the insults, there have been many good points made here. However, to the main questions raised here there is probably no chance of getting an agreed definition and there never will be.

I remember - decades ago - a very late night at our house when Bert Lloyd was staying with us after he had performed at our folk club and I was trying to draw him out on a definition of what constituted the tradition in song and singer. He sighed and said, "Look out of the window.... we can both agree that it is the night. At breakfast tomorrow, we can both agree that it is the day. But don't ask us to agree on the exact point where one becomes the other because we never will. Just listen to as much of it as you can and then use your instincts."

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:07 AM

I recall interviewing Fred Jordan, and as it was a radio interview, I asked him to sing a song that expressed his act...

He proceeded to sing his version of "Grandfather's Clock" which without an audience to appreciate his pregnant pauses was not exactly what I wanted.

"Reedcutter's Daughter?" I asked.

"Ask Tom Brown to sing that for you."   He said.

"But Tom learned it from you!" I said. (Tom and Bertha Brown were old friends, I know where he got his songs from!)

"Ah, but in the tradition, he learned it at his mother's knee." Said Fred.

Neither gentleman is around now, but I reckon they would have enjoyed this debate. Further, I reckon they both appreciated an audience, so tradition, traditionalist, call them medieval punk if you like, so long as they had a pint and people who thought them something special.

We all play to crowds, even old men......

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: raymond greenoaken
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM

JC: If you narrow it down to families you have to include in your definition "light or grand opera, Barry Manilow, Louis Armstrong, Beatles, Harry Champion, Gracie Fields songs..", otherwise, why should your family repertoire be any more significant than those who don't sing folk songs?

Me: Look again, Jim. While you were out making the tea I widened the discussion to focus on the distinct regional repertoire of Tyneside and Northumberland. As to whether my own family repertoire was typical of the regional pattern I described, I really couldn't say. I only learned one song off me mam, after all. So leave me out of it and consider the big picture. Here's my question again (I hope you're allowed to quote yourself on Mudcat...):

I'm taking about a body of identifiable local songs, mostly minted in the 19th century by known authors and mostly fixed in their form but nonetheless admitting of small variations generated by oral transmission. People in Northumberland (even those not related to me) feel they own these songs and have a connection with them that they don't feel about the Gracie Fields and Lennon & McCartney songbooks. They sing them informally without, in the main, any "training". These also happen to be songs that were sung in folk clubs in the Fifties and are sung in folk clubs to this day. How, then, do they differ from "the folk song tradition that brought us all together in the Fifties"?

Also, I'd really like some more light shed on the concept of"training". Can you oblige?

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:55 PM

Vic,
An excellent analogy from the old master. I don't agree with Bert on everything he wrote or said, but I'm 100% with him on this one.

raymond,
Jim is not all that knowledgeable on local traditions in the north. Of course the Geordie tradition of songs and singing is just as valid as say The East Anglian traditions or the Bothy Songs. The facts that most of them have known authors and they largely come from an urban environment are irrelevant to this discussion.

Yes, these songs were made widely known on the folk scene by the H L Ranters and others, but then, and probably even now to a lesser extent, were being sung in the pubs and w m clubs of the NE.

Subject: RE: Traditional singer definition
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 03:11 PM

"Jim is not all that knowledgeable on local traditions in the north"
Don't know why you should say that Steve - have been known to sing from my own tradition, You'll Never Walk Alone' and 'Ferry Cross The Mersey' with the best of them.
Seriously, it depends on what you mean by "local traditions in the north" - virtually all (a tiny handful of exceptions) of them were long gone by the time I became involved and I'm not aware of very much in the way of in depth work carried out on them when they were thriving.
More later
Jim Carroll