BS: Waiting for protests... (Gaza)

Subject: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 05:19 PM

If Israeli rockets had done this, there would be loud screams of protest: I hear a lot of silence....





Palestinian rocket misfires, kills 2 girls in Gaza
   
By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer Ibrahim Barzak,

Associated Press Writer – GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – A crude rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell short of its target in Israel on Friday, striking a house in the northern Gaza Strip and killing two schoolgirls.

The attack came as Israel sent mixed signals over its plans to respond to continuing Palestinian rocket fire. Israeli defense officials say politicians have approved a large-scale incursion into the territory once rainy conditions clear. But at the same time, Israel appeared receptive to international pressure against an invasion, opening the Gaza border Friday to allow in deliveries of humanitarian aid.

None of Gaza's militant factions claimed responsibility for the deadly attack on the house in Beit Lahiya. Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moiaya Hassanain said the two victims, ages 5 and 12, were cousins. Three other children were wounded, he said.

The girls were the first Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by militants since their truce with Israel began collapsing six weeks ago. Family members and medics said they were killed by rocket fire.

Israel's crossings with Gaza have been largely clamped tight since Islamic Hamas militants seized control of the coastal strip in June 2007, with only the barest essentials allowed in since a June 19 truce with Gaza gunmen began unraveling six weeks ago.

On Thursday, however, Israel's Defense Ministry said it agreed to open its cargo crossings into Gaza to avoid a humanitarian crisis there. Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the decision followed consultations with defense officials and calls from the international community, suggesting Israel might be open to international pressure to resume the truce.

A total of 106 trucks carried medicine, fuel, cooking gas and other vital goods into Gaza, including a small donation from Egypt, the military said.

Cabinet Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said the humanitarian shipment was meant to be a message to the people of Gaza that they were not Israel's enemy.

"We are sending them a message that the Hamas leadership has turned them into a punching bag for everyone," he told Israel Radio. "It is a leadership that has turned school yards into rocket-launching pads. This a leadership that does not care that the blood of its people will run in the streets."

Ben-Eliezer echoed the message Prime Minister Ehud Olmert tried to deliver a day earlier in an interview with the Arabic language Al-Arabiya TV station: that Gaza's Islamic Hamas militant rulers were to blame for the suffering in Gaza, home to 1.4 million Palestinians.

But, as with similar cases involving unintended civilian casualties in the past, there were no immediate signs of backlash against the militants after the girls' death.

The militants kept up their fire on Israeli border areas despite Israel's agreement to open its crossings Friday. In all, 13 rockets and mortars were fired toward Israel by Friday evening, the military said. One home was struck but no injuries were reported.

Israel had originally agreed to open the cargo crossings with Gaza on Wednesday, but shut the passages after militants began pounding southern Israel with rockets and mortars.

Pressure has been mounting in Israel for the military to crush Gaza militants, and Israeli leaders have been voicing strong threats in recent days. But on Friday, military officials said the army was planning a routine rotation of its troops along the Gaza border in the coming week. That, coupled with winter weather, made an imminent operation seem unlikely, they said.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not permitted to discuss military strategy publicly.

Israel left Gaza in 2005 after a 38-year occupation and has been reluctant to press ahead with a campaign likely to exact heavy casualties on both sides. Past incursions have not halted the barrages, and officials fear anything short of a reoccupation of Gaza would fail to achieve the desired results.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 05:33 PM

Well, yeah, that's a purdy messed up deal... Just more fruits of Bush's failed Isreali/Paletianian policies...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 05:46 PM

Yeah...I got a 'protest'. Prefacing a post with another '...it sure would have been different IF someone else had done that...' is always bad form.

Oh...and yes, anyone who fire rockets at ANY civilian targets is to be condemned.

(I watch the news..I never heard about it, so I couldn't have protested.. ....the networks haven't tried too hard during the holidays to follow things..)

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Dec 08 - 05:52 PM

Anyone who fires rockets, or drops bombs, or fires shells from tanks, or carries out "surgical air strikes", and civilians get butchered...

There's a lot of it about.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 01:32 AM

First time I heard about it was just now when I looked at this thread. If the rocket fire came from Gaza (no one is taking credit, so I don't think we can say for sure that it did), and if the people who were responsible were targeting civilians in Israel, then I condemn their actions. If, however, they were targeting Israeli military, then it was a very unfortunate accident in a legitimate campaign for Gazans' freedom and liberty, and I don't condemn it, although it saddens me to learn about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 04:25 AM

The incident (I think the same one) was reported briefly by a couple of my usual sources, but is no longer visible.

An extended search finds the only thing likely to be the incident cited:

Palestinian rocket kills 2 Gaza girls: medics
Reuters
updated 8:09 a.m. CT, Fri., Dec. 26, 2008

GAZA - A rocket apparently fired by Palestinians on Friday struck a house in the Gaza Strip, killing two Palestinian sisters aged five and 13, Palestinian medics said.

Hamas police said they were investigating the cause of the blast in Beit Lahiya village in northern Gaza, which medics said seemed to be due to a rocket aimed at Israel that had misfired.

Gaza militants frequently fire rockets at Israel from the same area.
The incident came amid rising tensions with Israel, with officials threatening stepped-up military action against Gaza militants to stop rocket shootings from the coastal territory.

Copyright 2008 Reuters.

[end quote]

A currently current article on the general subject of the conflict gives (if one reads the whole article) some context for the state of conflict, and in that context the incident cited is pretty much "business as usual" and not really merit-worthy for the international press:

Israel reopens Gaza border

Hamas rocket, mortar fire continues; Egypt plays mediator role

The Associated Press
updated 8:24 a.m. CT, Fri., Dec. 26, 2008

JERUSALEM - Israel reopened its border with Gaza on Friday to allow deliveries of humanitarian aid, despite continued rocket and mortar fire from the coastal strip and growing expectations of a large-scale Israeli military campaign against Palestinian militants.
The military said approximately 90 trucks would deliver medicine, fuel, cooking gas and other vital goods into Gaza. The shipment includes a large donation of goods from Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's wife as well as more than 150,000 gallons of fuel and 200 tons of natural gas, the military said.
Israel's Defense Ministry said it agreed to open its cargo crossings into Gaza to avoid a humanitarian crisis there. Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the decision came after consultations with defense officials as well as calls from the international community. Israel controls Gaza's cargo crossings, which are used to deliver food, fuel and other goods into the territory.
Cabinet Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer said the humanitarian shipment was meant to be a message to the people of Gaza that they were not Israel's enemy.

"We are sending them a message that the Hamas leadership has turned them into a punching bag for everyone," he told Israel Radio. "It is a leadership that has turned school yards in rocket launching pads.
This a leadership that does not care that the blood of its people will run in the streets."

[end quote]

The context needed relative to this incident is actually further down in the article, but it's too lengthy to quote entire here. Rocket launches of the kind believed to have caused the incident cited are almost daily happenings. Neither side in this conflict has rockets sufficiently accurate to expect to hit "only" militarily significant targets, so it's essentially terrorism expected to harm mostly civilians, with only a vague pretense of being military action - or so it appears from here.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 07:07 AM

Israeli air strikes on Hamas Police stations this morning in Gaza, in retailiation for rocket attacks.
Happy New Year? Will it never end?

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: polaitaly
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:09 AM

Israel air strikes on Gaza. There are two hundreds people dead yet.
Israel says "it's just the beginning".

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: gnu
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:12 AM

So much for "mixed signals". So sad... so very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:27 AM

It needs to be said that there are groups that **WANT** the violence to continue, and who will use any method to provoke the other side. (same as the India/Pakistan conflicts)

This is true of a few from BOTH sides. It takes very little to assure that it will never cease.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:58 AM

Fire rockets at civilian targets? Wouldn't that imply intention?
Taking credit? Does one take credit for killing children?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 12:25 PM

If they were randomly shooting them into Israel, we can deduce their intent to hit civilians. If they were aiming them specifically at Israeli military targets, then we can deduce their intent to hit military targets. And yes, some people do take credit for killing children (as well as adult non-combatants). Although some people might prefer to say that no one is taking responsibility. Either way, no one has admitted to firing that rocket.

For my own part, it's not possible for me to know who did it or what they were targeting. I can only say under what circumstances I would condemn the act.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 12:57 PM

Once again today it is demonstrated how terrible are the consequences when terrorists really are in control of weapons of mass destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 06:56 PM

Today shows clearly that neither 'side' is blameless or innocent....it makes little difference exactly who started it THIS time - the civilians are just as dead...the 1st rocket was stupid and the overdone response was stupid. It has been like this since 1947.

"False are the bickering reigns-
Of Honor, of Homeland, of War"

   -Bob Beers "The Seasons of Peace"

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 07:41 PM

When I was in college there was a big debate on campus about some guy who had offended someone on some minor level but the guy went ballistic which triggered a major reaction from the other, etc. I don't recall much now about any of it except the Dean found the one student had "over-reacted" and the other had an "over-reaction to the over-reaction."

At the time many of us laughed at the phrasing and found it "stupid." As the years have passed I find it seems to be the norm of world diplomacy, especially in the flashpoint areas like the middle east. The politico threads here are more like that all the time too.........take this thread for instance from the very first post. The reaction here is pretty mild but still there and building.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 08:08 PM

All atrocities in this kind of situation are seen by those carrying them out as justified reactions to previous atrocities by the pother side.

If the idea on either side is that reprisals can somehow stop the cycle of violence, that is demonstrably crazy.

However, if the aim on each side is to provoke counter atrocities and keep the cycle of violence going, it all makes perfect sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 08:55 PM

Edmonton Journal reported a few (maybe yesterday) days back that the cease-fire that had lasted for 6 months was ended by Hamas, after which they started the same old same-o. They rocket and mortar attacked Israel. Olmert said that either Hamas could stop the attacks on CIVILIAN TARGETS or else there would be consequences. These are them I guess, because the rocket attacks continued and the Israelis are going to wage war.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 09:11 PM

This is what you see when the US turns its back on the Isreali/Palistanian conflict.... Every president going back forever was engaged... Bush said, "Let 'um fight it out"... Then after 7 years Bush said, "Geeze, that was dumb... Condi... Get over there..."

This can all be laid at the feet of George Bush who came into office and thought that everything that administrations before him were wrong... That was stupid... This isn't an easy problem top solve and will take US involvement no matter what Bush spent 7 years thinking...

It's almost like starting over... Hillary is gonna be one busy lady over the next 4 years cleaning up after the neocons and Bush...

But one thing is for sure, for anyone who thinks that starving Hamas out is sorely mistaken if this is their long range plan for the Middle-east... Ain't gonna do jack... Just make more desperate folks willing to launch rockets... Poverty isn't the greatest motivator toward peace....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 27 Dec 08 - 11:19 PM

The cease-fire was brokered by Egypt, fyi.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 10:55 AM

We can talk until we are blue in the face, we can have as many Kissingers, Blairs, Rices, Obamas et al, we can call upon the U.N. for ever and a day, we can pray to whichever Almighty we believe in, we can pull every stroke known to man but I fear they will fall on stony ground as they have done ever since the mid 1900`s. It is only when at least 3000 miles exist between the borders of the Arab nations(predominantly Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria) and Israel will there be the remotest chance of a lasting peace. How we can achieve this is a question the whole world must address before "Old Nuke" raises his head again.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 01:47 PM

The US has never turned its back on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Not even during the Bush administration. The US has always supported the Israeli side of the conflict with weapons and with many billions of dollars of US taxpayer money. If the US were to well and truly ignore the conflict, it might actually have a chance of coming to some kind of resolution.

It's simply not possible for the US to arm Israel to the teeth and prop up its economy with US taxpayer dollars and expect US emissaries to be able to broker a solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 02:39 PM

I have on occasions been accused by other members of being "simplistic" in my appraisal of President Elect Mr Obama.

This from Mr Obama in todays Sunday Times....."If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm goint to do everything in my power to stop that, and I would expect the Israelis to do the same thing".....That seems to me a very simplistic statement and shows little hope of CHANGE in America's Middle East policy.

Israelis have been further encouraged by Mr Obama's key appointments, from his vice presidential running mate Joe Biden, long a prominent supporter of Israel, to his choice of rahm Emanuel, a leading Jewish congressman as his White House chief of staff.

Carol is correct, the US always has and always will support the Israelis in their subjugation of the Palestinian people.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 02:52 PM

I am standing by my statement that Bush turned his back on the Isreali/Palestinian conflict... Yes, he has been supportive of Isreali but hasn't done jack in regards to either the Palestians or the conflict other than to try starve Hammas out... That has intensified the conflict... Not lessened it...

It's time to dust off the "Saudi Proposal" which would have provided a framework for Isreal's security while also providing for a Palestinian state and the resources to make that state healthy...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: michaelr
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 03:49 PM

Condi Rice said today that "Bush has laid the groundwork for a Palestinian state".

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 05:50 PM

The US can't very well take any other position. When your whole goddamn country is land stolen by genocidal violence you can't risk opening the whole can of worms by condemning somebody else for doing the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 06:41 PM

"...your whole goddamn country is land stolen by genocidal violence..."

Whoa. No cause for complacency. If only because it is so much older, Britain has a MUCH worse record.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: heric
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 07:33 PM

The Israeli government sees it just as simplistically. Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said that "[T]he American government would not have waited one day before they would have responded if San Diego had been hit from Tijuana with thousands of rockets."

I don't doubt the prediction but the entire analogy makes me laugh for some reason - Just glad to have Mexico as a neighbor, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: bobad
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 07:38 PM

You would be less inclined to laugh if you were living in Netivot, Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: heric
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 07:44 PM

Oh, sorry. I had a disclaimer about the subject itself not being funny, but deleted it accidentally when shortening the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 08:49 PM

Yeah, Tijuana is a real threat... I hear the TLO (Tijuana Liberation Organization) is plotting against the US because the venders at the border crossing in SanDiego say that the US tourists just aren't buying enough Mexican blankets this year...

I say, "Nuke them blanket peddlers"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 09:13 PM

"...your whole goddamn country is land stolen by genocidal violence..."

Whoa. No cause for complacency. If only because it is so much older, Britain has a MUCH worse record

Fuck that. I may live here but I owe its government no allegiance whatever.

Yeah, the British started expropriations in North America before the US existed. The US proceeded to steal several times as much land as the colonials had done, with far worse atrocities. They had the historic opportunity to make some sort of peace with the Native Americans, given that the situation they were in was not of their making, and maybe create a state like Jesuit Paraguay. Instead they chose continuing genocide while blabbering to the world about "liberty".

Obviously the UK regime is in no hurry to denounce the Zionists as the murdering, thieving filth they are, given their own record in India, Africa, Australasia, the Caribbean and the Far East. The fact that they won't say it doesn't make the Zionists any less murdering, thieving filth.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 09:31 PM

"And here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price
You have to pay to get out of
Going through these things twice."

Gospel of Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 08 - 11:26 PM

"It is only when at least 3000 miles exist between the borders of the Arab nations(predominantly Palestine, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Syria) and Israel will there be the remotest chance of a lasting peace."

You mean shift Israel across the Atlantic and give them a bit of what is now the United States? It's a bit late for that, even if the Israelis were willing - and I suspect the inhabitants of whichever bit of the United States was chosen would object pretty strenuously to being told to get out to make room for the settlers. It'd just be the same conflict all over again, but with Americans instead of Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 12:28 AM

We already did that, with 46% of the world's Jewish population in US and Canada (compared with Israel's 37%, and Europe's 15%), and there's no objection and no problem at all. You guys in the rest of the world need to lighten up and start getting along with your neighbors.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 01:47 AM

It would be a different situation than just allowing the Jews in Israel to immigrate to the US. The question revolves around the concept of a Jewish state, which apparently requires that Jews be in the majority. That means that a lot of people who are not Jews would need to be cleared out (as happened to the Palestinians), and people who weren't Jewish wouldn't be allowed to move there from elsewhere if doing so would threaten the Jewish majority.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: heatherblether
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 02:24 AM

Gaza has been half starved and blockaded by Israel for several years .Israel has been waging economic war against its civilian population in a totally illegal way. This blockade has meant that essential medical supplies have been stopped,the power stations have been destroyed and movement in and out of Gaza halted.Hundreds of Palestinian children in Gaza have been killed in the past few years by the Israeli military and thousands more maimed or terrorised. Gideon Levy,an Israeli writer with the Israeli Haaretz newspaper, has described the military actions of Israel as that of the neighbourhood bully.How right he is.
Ifor

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 04:19 AM

..a pre-meditatated massacre, as evidenced in this Haaretz article:

Disinformation, secrecy and lies: How the Gaza offensive came about

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 06:27 AM

You see? There are elements of truth from BOTH sides of this stupidity! Freda's article indicates that Israel 'may' have instigated part of the situation, knowing the probable outcome, while Hamas may have intentionally provoked the attacks, but misjudged the degree of response.
It is impossible for us to sit here and be sure exactly what was in whose minds and what they expect to gain.

    I doubt Israel wants land anywhere else in the world....or that the Palestinians will ever just shrug and accept Israel's presence in the region.

   What we have is a sense of 'righteousness' from ALL parties, driven by first: religious beliefs about a little piece of elevated land, and then by memories of whatever handy recent memories of injury done to them...no matter WHO did what first.


"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:22 AM

A good army makes plans for future contingencies, and then lets the politicians make the decisions. I see nothing in the Haaretz article other than prior planning for a reengagement, and I don't know of a single thing, unfortunately, in the 70-plus year history of this conflict that would suggest that there wouldn't be one. There is also nothing in the 60-year history of the Israeli military that would indicate that any response to provocation, inevitable or not, wouldn't be massive and, at least in the eyes of some people, excessive.

BTW, CarolC, the rockets used by the Palestinians are technically known as Free Rockets Over Ground (FROGs). They are only slightly more sophisticated than roman candles, and are generally fired propped on a wooden or metal tripod - visualize the thing you hang a pot over a campfire on. They are aimed by setting direction and elevation (angle of fire, which determines the distance) and are highly inaccurate even if aimed with care. They are only useful against area targets - something a kilometer on a side, for example, or as a terror weapon, where the exact point of detonation is not particularly important.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:32 AM

I see this as an over-reaction by Isreal in aadvance of the incoming Obama administration which will most certainly be more engaged than at any time in the last 8 years...

And, no, I do not condone rockets fired at anyone but I believe that had the US stayed engaged, rather than send the Bush message to Isreal that anything goes that we would be alot further down the road...

Ya'll Google up "Saudi Ppoposal"... That frameowrk would have worked and can still work... Bush saiod it was "interesting" but failed to get on board in endorseing this plan which would have put the Arab nations on the hot seat to insure Isreal's security...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:37 AM

As I said after the UN failed to enforce the ceasefire terms on anyone but Israel re Lebenon 2007, the international community has thrown away any chance to solve this problem: Israel would be foolish to trust ANY promises that the UN would do anything.


Thus, the actions ( lack of, actually) of the UN and others after September of 2007 have led directly to there being nothing that they can do.

As for fault,

Who unilaterally terminated the cease fire?

Who (continued to) target the civilian population with area mass bombardment weapons, illegal under tha Geneva conventions?

Who now protests the targeting of their military and givernmental superstructure, the legitimate targets in a war?




"and if the people who were responsible were targeting civilians in Israel, then I condemn their actions. If, however, they were targeting Israeli military, then it was a very unfortunate accident in a legitimate campaign for Gazans' freedom and liberty, and I don't condemn it, although it saddens me to learn about it. "

"If they were randomly shooting them into Israel, we can deduce their intent to hit civilians. If they were aiming them specifically at Israeli military targets, then we can deduce their intent to hit military targets."

CarolC


I agree with you on this. And it is obvious that the Hamas government is randomly shooting at Israeli civilians, and the Israelis are targeting Hamas military and goverment targets.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:51 AM

"the Israelis are targeting Hamas military and goverment targets."

Most of those targetted and killed by this attack have been civilians (including police). Targetting civilians is a war crime, and is an act of terrorism, whether the people doing it are Hamas, Al Qaeda, or the Israeli government.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: bobad
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 08:57 AM

"Most of those targetted and killed by this attack have been civilians"

Source please.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:10 AM

"Most"??????

The numbers I see are- over 300 killed, 51 of which are civilians.


"Meanwhile, Gazans were sent messages on their cellphones by the Israeli military warning them to stay away from "terrorists" and refrain from carrying weapons. Many Palestinians stayed off the streets of Gaza City save for funeral processions.'

If Hamas chooses to put military targets in civilian homes, schools, and mosques( in violation of the Geneva Conventions) HAMAS is responsible.

And what did Hamas do to warn the Israeli civilians they targeted with their rockets over the last 8 years?


........

Israel's government, which is currently in a reelection campaign, wants to bring to an end the eight years of Hamas rockets landing in southern Israel.

"There's the question of Iran," says Meir Javedanfar, the coauthor of a book on Iran's nuclear program. "If Israel can't defend itself against a small group like Hamas, then it will look weak to the region and embolden the right wingers in Iran to increase support for Hamas."

In the southern Israel town of Sderot, shell shocked from eight years of attacks, local Israelis say they feel a sense of relief and defiantly refused Sunday to take cover in shelters at the sound of rocket alerts. "Today is a day of celebration in Sderot," says Sasson Sara, a local shop owner. "Today I feel that we finally started to deal with terror."

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:11 AM

Out of OVER 300 Israeli strikes. Looks like they are taking extraordinary means to AVOID killing people.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:34 AM

"Most of those targetted and killed by this attack have been civilians"

"Source please."

Every report indicates that most of those killed have been police. In other words, as would be the case in New York or London or Tel Aviv, civilians, in the same way that firefighters are. Targetting them is an act of terrorism.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 09:43 AM

"Looks like they are taking extraordinary means to AVOID killing people. "

"extraordinary means" would be be to leave the planes on the ground.



You KNOW there are elements in Hamas who want to provoke Israel...for whatever mis-guided reason, else they would NOT fire those crude, random rockets, knowing they are out-gunned are that people WILL suffer.

My 'suspicions' are that they hope to get aid and all-out war from the entire Arabic Middle-East....but that's only a guess. I also am 'guessing' that they want to accomplish this before Bush leaves office.

My OPINION is that they are going to suffer for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:02 AM

"The numbers I see are- over 300 killed, 51 of which are civilians."

Oh, that's alright then.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:08 AM

fascinating... an article in TimesOnline seems to have read my mind. (or I am just cleverer than I thought).

THEY agree that Hamas has precipitated all this with help from Syria & Iran and hoping to get more help from the region....and that Israel wants to strike heavily BEFORE Obama takes office.

Ah well, I don't think I am all that clever....seems pretty obvious, though just as stupid on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for protests...
From: GUEST,beardedbrucew
Date: 29 Dec 08 - 10:12 AM

And it was OK when it was just Jews being targeted with antio-personneal rockets... Nobody had a word of protest then.

Hamas declared the ceasefire over, NOT Israel. They are getting what they deserve. Israel waited three days, and the rockets continued at the increased rate.

Should I be living next to you and throwing bombs over the fence, trying to hit your family, and the police refused to stop me, what the hell would YOU do?????







.........
Most of those killed since Saturday were members of Hamas security forces, though the precise numbers remain unclear. A Hamas police spokesman, Ehab Ghussen, said 180 members of the Hamas security forces were among the dead, and the U.N. agency in charge of Palestinian refugees said at least 51 of the dead were civilians. A rise in civilian casualties could intensify international pressure on Israel to abort the offensive.

Israel's intense bombings — more than 300 airstrikes since midday Saturday — reduced dozens of buildings to rubble. The military said naval vessels also bombarded targets from the sea.