BS: The Debates: Members Only

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 02:34 PM

Oddly enough, I do not think of him as Black. He's more of a tan color, as far as epidermal hue is concerned. I guess the notion of race depends on which kind of prejudice you grew up with. I grew up learning to be biased against hate-mongering, against sclerosis of the brainwave, and against those who had hardened heart-beams. The "race" I grew up with is the race of humans trying to know, or learn, or exchange ideas. The race I am prejudiced against is the race of humans who market fixed ideas, the pursuit of ignoral, and the celebration of stupidity. This is bigotry on my part, I admit, and I am working on outgrowing it, to whatever extent possible, but I find the canalization of these prejudices runs rather deep and is hard to shed just by deciding to do so.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 03:33 PM

I see him as elite and detached. But when Rezko sings, he's sure to come clean on Ron Davies.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:00 PM

If by "elite" you mean the best of the crop, I am inclined to agree. That's what the word used to mean. But he is very well grounded in the matters of the ordinary life, and is as detached as he needs to be only so far as to avoid getting sucked into the kind of kneejerk reactionary opinionation which so many less-than-thoughtful people engage in in this country. Among whom, I might add, I count you as one.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:03 PM

Hey, I didn't get a sweetheart deal on a house from Tony Rezko!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 04:39 PM

Yeah, but McCain did get lots of nice vacations and a lot of campaign finance money from Charles Keating. And Cindy got a sweetheart business deal with Keating as well.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 07:57 PM

Actually, I am voting for Barrak first becasue he is the best person for the job but also because of race...

Huh???

Yeah, I agree with Michael Moore's "Kill Whitey" chaptter in one of his books... I have been so screwed over by white people in my life that, yeah, I have become very leary of white people...

And I have spent alot of my life living with, working with and playing music with Black people and, guess what??? I find Black people to be more honest, more open and one heck of alot cooler than white people...

If that is racist then so be it...

(Yer gonna get it now, Boberdz...)

Who cares??? Hey, if race is gonna play a part in this election then some old white guys like me are gonna have to stand up and say, "Alot of White people ain't all that nice..." Case in point, just check out the rednecks that are linin' up to yell "Kill him" at Sarah Palin's rallies...

Would Black people, in general, act as poorly??? I seriously doubt it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:09 PM

There was a time when I felt that way about Native Americans, Bobert. I liked them considerably better than White people, even though I am White. ;-)

Well, I eventually realized that there's no race that is inherently better or worse than any other race, but it took me quite awhile to figure that out, I must say. A lot of my romantic illusions had to fall.

Never judge the book by its cover.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:17 PM

Ain't about better, LH... It's 'bout class and grace... Black people have shown me alot more class and grace in their struggles than anything I am seein' no by angry White rednecks...

Yeah, I undersatnd the colorblind thing but...

... that's been my experience of having been raised in the South...

Wish it weren't so but....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:23 PM

Obama is a well-spoken, intelligent, concerned leader....who just HAPPENS to be of mixed heritage and a product of several cultures...(mostly American).
   I find this to be of enormous value and relevance when I contemplate him being president and dealing not only with domestic issues, but also with countries and issues around the world! American has been represented by men of one basic color & basic heritage since its beginning, and it's time we represented this 'melting pot' by having a fine leader who IS part of that melting pot! It's a bit like choosing Jackie Robinson to be the first to break the color barrier in baseball....he was GOOD, he was intelligent, and he was willing to absorb the crap until folks got used to him.

   It will be another generation before it will be easy for folks of other cultural backgrounds and 'colors' to be commonly elected to high office with little mention OF their ethnicity or color ..or gender... but Barack Obama is the perfect breakthrough. *IF* he does well and leaves office respected as a trusted, honest and reasonably competent leader, it will be huge leap in this country's ability to gain respect in the world and acknowledge the values of ALL its citizens!

   John McCain, for all his heroic service and attempts to cope, represents the past in many ways, and he shows it in his failure to 'get' what is necessary to lead in these trying times.

I hope be be here in 4...or 8... years to refresh this thread and say "I told you so."

Whoever wins in Nov. is inheriting one HELL of a situation, and it may take several years of the BEST leader & some good luck to dig our way out of this mess....I want Obama to win, buy I don't envy him.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:39 PM

As someone in a generation younger than mine says, "racism is so 20th century".

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 08:50 PM

Well, Bobert, I will agree that there is a certain form of dignity and nobility that can be brought forth in any oppressed people when they are under the heel of oppression....and there is a certain ugly form of arrogance and sense of entitlement that can surface in some individuals of a group that's sitting pretty on the top of a social power structure.

I think we've all seen many examples of that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:01 PM

Exactly, BillD and LH... That's what we are talkin' about...

And, Alice... Yeah, those youngin's coming behind us get it alot better than alot of folks of "my generation"... And that is a good thing... I just hope that Obama will be elected because it will validate so many of "my generation's" fights...

"If I should put my hammer down
before my time has come
Yeah, if I should put my hammer down
before my time has come
Take and bury my body down
'Long Highway 61..."

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:10 PM

In today's news:

DAVENPORT, Iowa (CNN) – A minister delivering the invocation at John McCain's rally in Davenport, Iowa Saturday told the crowd non-Christian religions around the world were praying for Barack Obama to win the U.S. presidential election.

"There are millions of people around this world praying to their god—whether it's Hindu, Buddha, Allah—that his opponent wins, for a variety of reasons. And Lord, I pray that you will guard your own reputation, because they're going to think that their God is bigger than you, if that happens," said Arnold Conrad, the former pastor of Grace Evangelical Free Church in Davenport.

The remark was made before McCain arrived at the rally but the Republican nominee's campaign quickly put out a statement distancing itself from the remarks.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM

Why now.... This has been the bread and butter of the McCain campaign... Tell ya'll what, folks... Over the last month McCain nas hit everything but the lottery... I mean, he has been all over the board...

If this is the way that he intends to goveern he'll make Bush look like FDR...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 09:35 PM

This only works with folks who are hopelessly addicted in the first place!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 10:51 PM

*grin*.... You mean, Rig, that common sense is addictive? I do hope so! It's sure better than being addicted to some other things.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:21 AM

Everybody's hopelessly addicted, Rig. Only question is...to what?

Let's hope it's something constructive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 12:34 AM

Bill D, you put that beautifully. I'm glad that Barack Obama is of both races. It's just fittin', a signal to the world that we so cavalierly flouted that we are heading in a different direction.

We *know* that someday the United States of America will have a Black president (as well, in time, a woman president, a president who is a Jew, a Hindu, a Chinese, a Japanese, a Filipino - whatever. This country was made strong by its mixed cultures and common aspirations. What does it matter what private religion the nominee espouses?) So why not NOW? If not NOW, WHEN?

Barack Obama is perfect for the moment, an intelligent, thoughtful, motivational, centered and focused symbol for the times. As Bill said, I don't envy him the job and I'm sure he is aware that the next president is going to take a beating, from both sides for a long time to come. Opponents will be hovering over him like a cat waiting for a mouse to move, his supporters will be defensive, knowing that any lasting improvement will take time. Both sides will be impatient, wishing for The Fix.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:07 AM

The only question that remains to be answered is, who is he really working for?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:01 AM

The voters.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:04 AM

( ...actually, they all work for the $y$tem to one extent or another, but I think we can change that, but not if McCain gets elected)

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:05 AM

I think we all need to take a look at this video of the Palin-Biden Debate (from Saturday Night Live).
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:25 AM

Well, I thought that wagoing to be mildly witty when it started.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 05:41 AM

For those like me who do not ahve a complete handle on US political smears, there folows the link to what wakeupamerica is saying. I'm still looking for a balanced and rational assessment -

http://wwwwakeupamericans-spree.blogspot.com/2008/10/breaking-story-prosecutor-fitzgerald.html

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 09:03 AM

The WakeUp column is a study in gossip and innuendo. It cites no facts, offers no analytical thought, and seeks to instill false conclusions by implications and drab association. THis is the kind of mindlessness that the country needs to go cold turkey on, meaning walking away from a bunch of overheated turkeys. THere oughta be an MA meeting they could go to (Morons Anonymous).


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:04 AM

These sites and various other fear-mongers offer us, as Amos remarks, innuendo and suggestions couched in provocative form....

"What do we really know about Obama?"
"Why did he not rebuke Rev. Wright sooner?"
"Where do his loyalties really lie?"
...etc. into the distance

Which leads me to ask: "Do rhetorical questions actually serve to clarify anything or are they just reflections of the bias of the writer?"

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:15 AM

The trouble is that someone glued to a radio or TV is predisposed to blind inflow, and is already demonstrating a willingness to suspend analytical discrimination about what is being said.

For those voters who are not accustomed to parsing bull, or who tend to be easily led, gullible, or semi-hypnotic in their mental state, this sort of emotional rhetoric produces emotional reaction, which is used as a substitute for understanding, and becomes a basis for the KN vote (know-nothing). To justify this suboptimum behavior, they resort to spouting bits and pieces of phrases in any combination they can.



A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:19 AM

Well....he is just an Arab, isn't he? *grin*

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 10:58 AM

Well, I'd rather see Obama than McCain, even if Obama were bent, but it seems to be certain that Obama for some time had the use of a garden that he had not bought. The question in my mind became, "What was the quid pro quo". It is possible on the information to date that it was support for political appointments. Is that not so far plausible?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:52 PM

Yes, you would expect him to want at least free home-grown vegetables for such an investment.

Obama's political climb and his absence of having done anything else (politically) impresssive to date worries me. Some might call me a racist for that, but whatever.

The Republicans have given us no other choice, however. None. Democrats' turn.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 01:58 PM

It's also possible that it was in return for having his soul sold to the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 02:36 PM

That WakeUpAmerica blurt is pretty transparent:

"The rumble is"--   Rumble? To me, "rumble" clearly means "Rumor", or even "The rumor I'm trying to start."

The writer is putting into Rezko's mouth what (s)he would greatly like to hear, or what (s)he would greatly like the populace to believe.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:46 PM

The Flying Spaghetti Monster does not buy souls. He's above that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:48 PM

Well, LH, at least we agree on that!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Alice
Date: 12 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM

Now you're making me hungry for a hot bowl of pasta... it is snowing here in Montana, ya know.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:05 AM

Obama impressed me from the beginning with his call for politics of unjity, away from left/right dogmas.

I worry that, as he gets more and more popular in the polls, there may be some extremist act in America that targets him, either by physically attacking him or by creating a shocking event that intensifies the politics of fear.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:52 AM

A neighbor of mine forwarded a typical Republican slur email against Obama, with the subject line "forward this to everyone you know." I wrote back and asked her why on earth would I want to forward that nonsense, then a few hours later, I pasted the fact check information (it was an email with "quotes" from Obama books and some fabricated pro-Muslim stuff), I was very cordial, and I hit "reply to all." I knew I could dodge most of the s**t in return because my email is blocked, but some guy on that list had a post in my suspect mail this morning.

He said "this is why there's one best candidate" and had attached cartoons. I opened one randomly before I deleted the message, but it couldn't be clearer why Critical Thinking is a skill lost in America today. It portrayed various swarthy dictators alongside a tidy Fox News anchor at his desk, and said something like "name the one party Obama won't meet with." It's amazing how one statement that adds up to the idea that 'if you don't speak to your enemies you'll never be able to negotiate or understand them' can spin into this cartoon, and that more people will think the cartoon is correct than will ever hear the clear statement from Obama. And that Fox is a rational player in the national debate. Geez.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:08 AM

SRS - Do you know where the mail out originated. I mean was it official Republican business, or some other group?

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 10:11 AM

Alice:

My condolences on the Snow. Rapaire says it is all the Mormons' fault.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 01:22 PM

They get the snow, but they do seem to be resisting the McCain snow-job.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 02:50 PM

It wasn't official anything, no citations, no "facts," it was a racist attempt to scare voters. Same with the cartoon response. There are a lot of free agents in the political mix, trying to do their own little Swift Boat operations.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:19 PM

Actually, Obama did meet with Rupert Murdock a while back... It was at Mudock's request and Murdock asked Obama to appear on Fox and promised that Fox would be fair to him... Obama agreed and did appear on Fox (once)... When it became apparent that Fox had no intere3st in reporting real news and was just blasting away at him and other Dems, Obama decided once was enough...

Hey, would John McCain ever agree to appear on Keith Olberman??? I doubt it very seriously...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 05:33 PM

I say this as a white, former life-long Republican. I say this as the proud father of a Marine. I say this as just another American watching his pension evaporate along with the stock market! I speak as someone who knows it's time to forget party loyalty, ideology and pride and put the country first. I say this as someone happy to be called a fool for going out on a limb and declaring that, 1) Obama will win, and 2) he is going to be amongst the greatest of American presidents.

Obama is our last best chance. He's worth laying it all on the line for.

This is a man who in the age of greed took the high road of community service. This is the good father and husband. This is the humble servant. This is the patient teacher. This is the scholar statesman. This is the man of deep Christian faith.

Good stories about Obama abound; from his personal relationship with his Secret Service agents (he invites them into his home to watch sports, and shoots hoops with them) to the story about how, more than twenty years ago, while standing in the check-in line at an airport, Obama paid a $100 baggage surcharge for a stranger who was broke and stuck. (Obama was virtually penniless himself in those days.) Years later after he became a senator, that stranger recognized Obama's picture and wrote to him to thank him. She received a kindly note back from the senator. (The story only surfaced because the person, who lives in Norway, told a local newspaper after Obama ran for the presidency. The paper published a photograph of this lady proudly displaying Senator Obama's letter.)

Where many leaders are two-faced; publicly kindly but privately feared and/or hated by people closest to them, Obama is consistent in the way he treats people, consistently kind and personally humble. He lives by the code that those who lead must serve. He believes that. He lives it. He lived it long before he was in the public eye.

Obama puts service ahead of ideology. He also knows that to win politically you need to be tough. He can be. He has been. This is a man who does what works, rather than scoring ideological points. In other words he is the quintessential non-ideological pragmatic American. He will (thank God!) disappoint ideologues and purists of the left and the right.

Frank Schaeffer on Huffpo

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:15 PM

They wouldn't publish you on the Huffington Post if you didn't say all of those things.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:44 PM

The interesting thing about Arianna Huffington (Stassinopoulos in those days) is that when she lived in England, and became quite well known, her politics were what was counted here counted as pretty right-wing.

And I don't think there is any indication that those politics have significantly changed over the years. But in the context of the USA those rightwing politics evidently count as far left...

It's all relative.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: heric
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 06:58 PM

No, she changed drastically deliberately and overtly - after first cozying up to Newt Gingrich and the Contract On America when she arrived. She did a 180 after that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:23 PM

It happened the minute she discovered Michael was gay!

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Amos
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 07:50 PM

Actually, the Post publishes a lot of different views, Rig, so your snidity is groundless, as usual.

THe interesting thing is that you had to attack the medium.

Not surprising, I guess, but not exactly highly rational., either.


A

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM

This month's cartoons are meticulous and took at least 1 to 6 hours each.
The thing is, some yahoo can merely utter some absurdity and the responses to the tripe are off to the races for hours and days.

Visual metaphoric insights and historic symbolism don't seem to have the juice that a good ol boy moron has when engaged in abject yahooism.

I am also dissapointed that so many people find it acceptable to compare apples and oranges by entering debates over what trumps what.

does race trump money, does money trump sex, do racists trump intellectuals...

I am embarrased for the people who do not see the trump debate for the small minded fear and loathing show that it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Debates: Members Only
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Oct 08 - 09:08 PM

9 Oct 2008 1:13 PM: "it was on the radio...."

So then I suppose there are 2 questions arising from that:

1) Exactly why is the poster so stupidly gullible as to regurgitate anything he hears on the radio--rather than thinking it through? Since, as has been pointed out, "Kill him" was obviously not heckling of Gov. Palin. Too bad the poster has sworn off thinking--and not just for Lent.

And of course:

2) Why is the poster such a hypocrite?--since as has been noted, anybody truly strongly against organized religion would be strongly against McCain/ Palin.