BS: Rory Bremner

Subject: BS: Rory Bremner
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 03:50 PM

In his show on BBC TV last night, UK comedian Rory Bremner went further than any other entertainer, indicting Prime Minister Blair as guilty of the mutilation of Iraqi children in the illegal Iraq War.
His words, spoken by John Fortune were.   "Blair is responsible for the armless Iraqi children lying in ruined hospitals.   He is a unprincipled murderous bastard"

I'm sure many here will agree with his sentiments, but does our so called "democracy" not make us all complicite in these dreadful crimes?

Its all to easy to forget that we elected these murderous bastards to keep our phony free society operating.
If we are big enough fools to believe the lies we are fed by the politicians, we must bear some responsibility for the results of their actions.

At long last ,I feel that there is a strong current running in the country against Govt lies. People seem to be realising that the UK is indeed just like the USA, with no real choice, just three stooges trying to sell us a discredited system, which is the cause of war , starvation , poverty,envy ,greed and child murder.


Dont vote on May 5!! Strike a blow for Freedom.
Gleneagles Hotel, July 2005.......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 04:10 PM

Do vote on May 5. Never forget what the alternative is. We will not get the Labour government of our dreams unless we take part in the workings of the party. How many people can be bothered to do all that work?
Blair did exactly what any other British Prime Minister would have done in the Iraq War - exactly what the Penatagon required. It would have been exactly the same story under Michael Howard, Neil Kinnock or even the late John Smith.
If Britain wishes to regain sovereignty over its armed forces and have an independent foreign policy, there will need to be a major debate to change the minds of the British people. There will also be a very high price to pay for uncoupling it from US requirements. As Big Mick pointed out some time ago, that is our fault, not the US's. Bear also in mind, that because of the very high price, the Conservative Party will start the debate with the uper hand.
The war in Iraq stinks and has been an utter catastrophe. Joining in it, is part of the price of not having an independent foreign policy. I would like us to have one too. Believe me, it won't come cheap. There is a political reality involved too and Blair is not alone to blame for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM

Alanabit...I cant agree.
The Tories would never have been able to drag us into Iraq.
The strength of feeling against the war was so stong, that even that most adept of liars Tony Blair just scraped it, assisted by the rest of his arse -licking cabinet!!
The only one of the administration to come out of the Iraq debachle with any credit was Robin Cook, who shamed the whole gang with his brilliant resignation speech.

The Labour party are now bringing out policies that the Tories can only dream about, attacks on human rights and right wing legislation that will in the future be used against those they claim to represent...the poor and those who protest injustice.

Dont vote!! Help to crush the system...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 05:35 PM

Ake, if Fortune said the words, what makes you think Bremner wrote them? (I assume you're talking about "Bremner, Bird and Fortune," which is on Channel 4, not BBC1.)

Alabit said: "We will not get the Labour government of our dreams unless we take part in the workings of the party." I wonder how he's going to do that. When was the last time his constituency Labour Party got a resolution on to the conference agenda? In fact when was the last time his CLP submitted a resolution at all, or even had a political debate? If it was recently, I hope he will say which CLP it is, because I understood politics had been banished from Labour Party meetings.

Blair adviser Philip Gould it was who first identified the need, about 10 years ago, to remove democracy from the workings of the Labour Party. Blair took that advice very much to heart and has made excellent progress, thanks to all manner of sharp practices.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 06:27 PM

Anything is better than the Conservatives. Use your vote. It's one of our few weapons.Nothing is perfect, but when given a choice of burning to death, drowning or dying in your sleep, you realise you have choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:08 PM

Your vote is not a weapon. It's a matchstick to weild against a samurai sword. A turd to hurl at a cannon.

When you think you're voting for preace & freedom (if you get that option) you are standing against the entire weight of the corporate media machine to whom peace & freedom is an inconvenience and who control your "democratically elected representatives" with insidious slander & propaganda.

"Your vote is important" - This is a fallacy in the modern world of huge populations manipulated by the media. It may have been true in ancient Athens, or maybe not even then, but it is certainly not true today. You have no choice. You vote counts for nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:10 PM

Having said that, I always vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 07:52 PM

As usual, inspiring stuff from John.
This time John,"Just say NO"

Hi Peter,good to hear from you . Your right about title and channel,but I took it for granted that Bremner had written the piece spoken by Fortune.
It seemed important that an established performer was using such emotive language.
As Jones the butcher in Dads Army used to say.."They dont like it up 'em you know....the cold steel"

Guest..If our democracy is reduced to the least worst option, then we really are wasting our vote,and which particular branch of the conservatives are you referring to anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,Blair=Judas / Howard=Satan
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:15 PM

"Guest..If our democracy is reduced to the least worst option, then we really are wasting our vote,and which particular branch of the conservatives are you referring to anyway"

... yes it sounds very clever...

..now back to the real world.. please climb down from your smug self satisfied lofty tower

and try to take some responsibility for protecting the quality of life of those in society less fortunate than yourself..

please use your vote constructively and wisely / strategically

to keep Howards evil bastard Tories out..

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: John O'L
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:23 PM

We tried that, in Australia and in the US, but they got back in.

What now?

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,J
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 11:47 PM

Rory Bremner and pals are irrelevant they change with the wind and take their lead from whichever tabloid happens, over the years, to point the way to a good laugh.That's what comedians do.


J

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Piers
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:36 AM

Hi Ake, I'd been wondering what your position on the election would be. I agree that if turnout fell below 50% it would create an interesting situation; would the result be seen as legitimate? But in the aftermath, there is only a minority of people who have any ideas about how an alternative system could work. For me the real political work is spreading ideas, and the elections are just a means of indicating when the majority is ready to take control and organise everything democratically not just who administers the state.

I'll be casting a write-in vote, something along the lines of 'world socialism, anything less would spoil my ballot paper' which has the same political effect as not voting, but means I get a trip out, I don't end up voting for something I don't want (and getting it) - as the strategic voters will - and in some small way the democratic route for change is kept valid if people are using it.

Piers

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 04:06 AM

We've got the Tories in now. The big difference between Thatcher 1985 and Bliar 2005 is that there was an opposition then. They were constrained in how far they could go- and god knows that was far enough. But the only opposition now is from the right- which is why New Labour trends that way continuously.

So Tories in power, Labour opposition sounds a better bet that Tories in power, Tory opposition.

What we REALLY need is a weak government of any party.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,Blair=Judas / Howard=Satan
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:34 AM

interesting comment GUEST,Paul Burke..

sounds a better bet..

but ultimately would not be
for the likes of my family
suffering long term asset-stripping tory ravaged local community services..


Piers.. still proposing the same ego wanking self centred pseudo political
tory helping bollocks as usual

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: alanabit
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:45 AM

So who should run the country Paul? Should it be the bankers, the armed forces or an angry mob? Do you realise how long any democratic government can stay in power after inflation has exceeded 30%? A weak government is the stuff of nightmares. Amnesty International has identified the absence of state authority as the major cause of current human rights violations throughout the world.
I have no doubt at all that many of the current policies being advocated (and practised) by the Labour Party, would have been dismissed as the rantings of right wing lunatics by Ted Heath thirty five years ago. It is a very dangerous illusion to imagine that things could not possibly get worse though. When you are confronted by two evils, it is always your duty to choose the lesser in the short term and in the long term try to improve the situation. The US is currently finding out just how far the pendulum can swing to the right. Do you really want Britain to go the same way?

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Piers
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:49 AM

Yeah sorry, I'll just sink back and rely on the old Labour for workers, Tories for the bosses notion, rather actually looking at what the politicians actually do and don't do.

I waited for the land of milk and honey back in 1997, but things just got worse instead - the same old jobs losses, pressure at work, unaffordable housing, transport chaos, kids sleeping on the streets, collapsing health service, wars, ecological destruction, countless millions starving while farmers are paid to let food rot. What has the 'social justice' party done about it? - nuffink, they can't - the system runs them rather than the other way around.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 08:59 AM

"It is a very dangerous illusion to imagine that things could not possibly get worse though"

..dangerous delusions in your case Piers..????

wake up.. grow up.. and take some responsibility for others less fortunate


and vote


to keep the tories out



"What has the 'social justice' party done about it? - nuffink, they can't - the system runs them rather than the other way around."

so you think your life will be better

under a Howard Tory government !!!!!!????

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:04 AM

Hey, don't you all have any Green Party candidates? I thought they were everywhere...

If not, get some. And vote for them even if they can't win. That's better than voting for either Labor or Conservatives both of whom would not stand up to our King George (Bush)...

Jus my opinion...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Piers
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:13 AM

It will be much the same - Labour, Liberal or Tory, same old futile story - there is nothing between them - they are all just sections of the Capitalist Party, they do what's in the interest of capitalism. But capitalism will never work in the interest of the majority. All the trends toward decreasing civil liberty, increasing state power, increasing inequality have continued under the Labour as they did under the Tories - it makes no difference.

Guest - you are obviously a Labour MP as there is no other reason that you could so irrationally maintain this self-important attitude toward this issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,Blair=Judas / Howard=Satan
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:32 AM

yeah Piers.. and how much are your tory paymasters

sponsoring you to peddle such immature divisive twaddle..!!??


..would'nt be the 1st [ or last time]

tories exploit their age old strategy of 'divide and rule'

to slime back into power

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,Lillian Devine
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:21 AM

Whenever I feel like voting anti-Labour, I just think back to the 1990's and the way Thatcher systematically destroyed the Unions, employment and the Public Services.

Lily

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Piers
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:43 AM

Thanks guest, I think I'd rather assist an anti-working class, anti-environment and anti-social party by not for voting for it than I would by voting for one as you are insisting.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,*Laura*
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:23 PM

Completely irrelevent but my mum used to have a flat in the same building as Rory Bremner at university.
She said he was an arrogant bastard.
Very funny though :0)

xLx

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,Blair=Judas / Howard=Satan
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:25 PM

piers..

the tories now stand a very real opportunity
to defeat the slender majority of my local MP


...a Liberal [ but still much more preferable than a tory devil ]


his majority is less than a few hundred..


if the tories win by 2 or 3 votes


because of the irresponsible precious anarcho-hippy utopian pricks like you
who refuse to vote against them......







to consider the real world

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:27 PM

errrrmmm... 'now lets consider the real world..

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Piers
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 03:59 PM

But the premise that Blair is Judas, Howard is Satan and your liberal candidate is mildly less evil doesn't stand up - you can supply all the religious imagery you want but what exactly is the difference between the Tories and Labour? They are now both faced with the same position when in power, they are reliant on the rich for party funding and to borrow money off of. They are always under pressure to cut back on expenditure (taxation, the burden of which falls primarily on the rich, as well as borrowing) that doesn't aid the expansion of capital (e.g. benefits) or divert money to expenditure which aid capital expansion (war, employment training, business grants, id cards) it's the only way a state can operate.

It's been going on for years and years and it is high time we stopped bickering about which is a lesser evil and get productive about building something that it is actually good.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 06:57 PM

yes Piers, but May is election month and Paradise won't arrive in time. Therefore a decision must be made one way or the other, and the lesser of 2 evils is what it always will be, as it always has been. Life can never be perfect, only better than. And anything is better than the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 03:55 AM

Don't vote!!!! then you have absolutely no say whatsoever. I'm sorry I'm a little bemused how does this help??

I say vote and lobby your MP and lobby the minister of state and lobby the prime minister. I say vote and then make the people you vote for accountable by lobbying as many people as you can.
One voice in the wilderness can be heard when supported by many more.

Please vote! Please lobby!


Ob

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:28 AM

It's an easy choice;-

If you are not interested in a fair society vote Selfservative.

If you want an (albeit flawed) fair society don't vote Selfservative

Tally Ho!

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Piers
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:35 AM

"anything is better than the Tories" - I believed it before '97, now it cannot be substantiated. Doesn't anybody read the news anymore!

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:55 AM

I get the feeling from his postings that Piers is still quite young, therefore has not shared the same experiences that most of the other posters here have.

I remember the first time that the unemploymment figures went over 1 million. I was a part of those statistics for at least a year, more if you count the various 'training' schemes I was sent on that did nothing to give me a trade or a permanent job, but did take a lot of zeros off the number of those claiming benefits. I remember clearly what Thatcherism did to the social structure of Britain, and how her government decimated the Unions to the point where they were almost pointless. Her policies gave me and thousands of others in my agegroup, an unsettled and image-led adolescence, set unrealistic goals and emasculated the organisations that fought for the 'little person'. Her successor John Major did little more than provide a figurehead (or role model) for the cabinet to continue their creaming and sleazy behaviour. Experiences like that can change a persons viewpoint.

I'm not saying that the last 5 years have been all sweetness, light and fairy cakes, but it comes to the point where any alternative has to be better than what you have.

As for not voting - one of the adverts on UK TV shows clearly that if you don't vote, if you don't 'do politics', you have no right to complain about the way the world treats you.

If you think the Government sucks, do something about it. Become a Union Rep, take an interest in your local government issues, use your democratic right, the right that people died to win, to vote.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:00 AM

has anyone heard Mark Steel's hilarious bit on Blair as a Leveller?

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Stu
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 05:09 AM

Anyone who suffered the indignities forced on the unemployed during the Thatcher era will understand the horror felt by many people when confronted with the thought of another Conservative government.

I was a Young Conservative (I actually patted Thatcher on the back at a rally in Wembley) in the early eighties and saw the workings of the Senior Association from the inside, and the attitude of the grass roots Conservative Party shocked me so much I left on political grounds (possibly the only Young Conservative to - I originally went for social reasons and the whole Conservative philosophy didn't sit well with me).

At the same time I was on a YOP scheme, which was basically slave labour for the under eighteens, and the lack of understanding amongst Conservative supporters for people who were unemployed or on these government schemes was astounding. As for what happened with the Miners etc - let's not go there.

Just remember that as a Home Secretary Michael Howard was evasive, ineffective, obsfucating and unable to take any resposibility for his mistakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 06:10 AM

Ah Stig... A fellow YOP sufferer... did you get a proper job out of yours? I've never met anyone yet who did.. and I worked for an Employment Training Manager!

For those who don't know or have blotted from their minds - YOP was the Youth Opportunities Programme. 16-18yr olds were given 6 months in a job placement for £25 per week. The idea was that you had 6 months work experience with a 'real' employer who taught you the basics of the job and hopefully got a proper job at the end of it. It was not popular (£25 per week just covered my rent) and many employers saw it as a cheap way to get labour - they didn't pay anything. It was succeeded by other schemes, Employment Training and so on... all the same scheme with just the name changed.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 06:35 AM

I do think there is a danger when we interpret politics through the utterances of comedians and tabloids-people should judge their politics by their own feelings if they are not able to access information by other means. Do they feel safe on the street at night-not what is written in the newspaper. Do they receive good service from the NHS, schools, dentists, council and not what is written about in the newspaper, do they worry about immigration in their area, and not what is written about in the newspaper-in fact if we worried less about the big picture which is often biased and ill reported and guaranteed to strike fear and loathing in us all-and based our judgement on how we feel and what our own experience is, then every individual politician would be held to account, regardless of which party they are for.   Forget the hype and spin and see with your own eyes and make local politicians accountable to how they will look after you. the big global picture isn't going to be changed by any party in the long term.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Piers
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 06:52 AM

I get the feeling from his postings that Piers is still quite young, therefore has not shared the same experiences that most of the other posters here have. Ooh, fighting talk.

The thing is you assume that all the shit that happended with the Tories in power (some of it, like the recession - hence unemployment, they can't have done anything about) wouldn't of happened with Labour in power, I think it would of happened anyway. And if Labour are against all of those things, why haven't they repealed that anti-union acts, CJB etc, etc?

If anybody was put in charge of a large organisation that needed to borrow money and tread the fine line of taxation and not wanting to be usurped at the next oppotunity or having every investor take their money out of the country, they would have to play the game. BTW, you should trying getting unemployment benefit now.

I'm quite confident in my refusal to vote for something I don't want, and I hope that others who realise the futility of voting for the capitalist party again would do the same and not worry too much about the smokescreen of the democratic decision about who adminsters the state that obscures the fact that power over our lives and over our environment is concentrated in that hands of an unelected few.

Anyway, you can rest assured that it would take something bloody spectacular to unseat the Tories out of my constituency, they have historically had a massive majority and the opposition candidates seemed resigned to the fact that they are on the suicide crawl until they get offered a better seat. And we should be discussing Rory Bremner . . . sorry Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:34 AM

"Piers"....   hmmmmm.. sounds like a Public Schoolboy name..??????


public school boy anarchist lefty.. ha !!!!!


.. course you might not be..

you might even be a product of a no hope council estate
blighted forever by the greed and vindictiveness of Thatcher era tory bastards..

lets put it this way..


despite popular [tory press generated]opinion
new labour do at least try to acheive whatever they can
thats positive and progressive for people like my family and community
within the constrictions of wading through the murky quagmire of capitalism and global evil capitalist empire..


the tories are owners, direcors and hired thugs and agents
of said evil corrupt capialist empire
and delight in the corrupt spoils of their power and ownership..

whilst gloating at their success and despising the victims of capitalism..

New labour is flawed but well meaning

tories are cunts..

simple really when you think about it..

but blindingly obvious when you've endured 30 odd years of it
and you're family elders remember the great depression and its consequences

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,Rory Bremner
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:52 AM

"Piers"..


is almost an anagram of "prick"..



then again..


.. P iss I gnorant E scapist R evolutionary S tudent ...


and for the more errudit amongst us..


.. P rivilaged I nadequately E ducated R idiculous S tudent ...


hmmm.. could do better with the "I and E" if I could be bothered



yep.. this is a fun game

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Piers
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:35 PM

Oh man, you are almost as funny as Rory Bremner! Come up with something concrete not just wishful thinking.

Have a look at http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ and look up the register of members interests, the vast majority of both main parties are, in fact, professional politicians these days.

The booms and slumps - the great depression - of the market system have nothing to do with any government intervention or lack of it.

The Labour Party might mean well, but they don't do well, they do just what the tories did and would do again. But if they mean well than that makes it alright does it? How can you be satisfied with this non-choice? Socialism is the only solution - so stop taking the piss and let's have a discussion about that instead, rather discussing who's the least worst scumbag to run capitalism based on prejudice rather than fact.

P.S. I notice unemployment has gone up again today: ~£1.4million - the social justice party in action?.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:14 PM

Game ,set, and match to Piers.
Without resorting to personal abuse.

Its a funny thing, but those of us who can see beyond the ends of our noses politically....see beyond the phony labour, tory ,Liberal con, are always able to post in a rational and restrained manner, despite being labelled dreamers, idealists and "loony lefties"..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:26 PM

This thread has been very interesting so far, but I had really intended to explore the complicity of the voting public in the atrocities committed against the civilian population of Iraq in what is now generaly perceived as an illegal war.
No one so far has addressed this point.

With the election coming up, should we not be thinking seriously about what our vote really means, not just what may put a few more pennies in our pockets.

Piers is right, the enemy is Capitalism, not the Tories ,Liberals or even new Labour.
As Piers says we need to start exchanging ideas....Not insults!!

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 03:11 PM

Akenaton and Piers: As it happens, I share your outrage at the war in Iraq. I believe it is illegal, immoral and a huge waste of life, resources and prestige. Where I differ from you, is that I do not see the forthcoming election as a referendum on the war or indeed as a one issue dilemma.
A point which I made earlier on, which no one has taken up, is that at the current time the UK foreign policy appears to be dictated by US requirements. I also agree with Big Mick's assertion (elsewhere) that this is our own fault. I feel that unless this issue is addressed adequately, there will be more disasters like Iraq lurking in wait for us.
What worries me, is that you appear willing to "throw" an election, when the root cause of the issue, which you care about so passionately, is not even on the agenda. If I lived in Britain, I would want to see a Labour government in power. Then I would want to force or shame it into becoming a real Labour government - and that would involve forcing the question of a real foreign policy onto the agenda. The winners of political indifference will always be those who are hungry for power for the sake of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: akenaton
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 04:25 PM

Alanabit...I can assure you that political indifference does not figure in my agenda, having been involved in protests most of my life.

It is not only the issue of Iraq which worries me about Blairs government, but also the right wing "security" legislation which I commented on earlier and which I know will be used to stop future protest.

Blair and his gang have proved themselves just as pro-Capitalist as the Conservatives, and certainly dont deserve endorsement from anyone on the left.

The only way forward for politically active Socialists, is to ignore the electoral con, and involve themselves in protest and direct action whenever possible.
You are naive indeed if you think any New Labour administration can still be influenced by pressure from the "grass roots".
They're much too well organised nowadays!!

I make the point again, that if we vote for an administration which goes to war illegally and uses the courts to crush protest by the people whom its meant to represent, we all must share responsibility.
We cant just shrug our shoulders and change the leader.

That wont help the limbless children....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,Mappa Mundi
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:46 AM

Tories are the most active warmongers known to humankind. Attilla the Thatcher proved that, as did the Tories at the beginning and during the war(s).

The war in Iraq is nothing compared to the deaths and distress worldwide caused by rampant UNFETTERED capitalism - OK Blair had/has to bow and scrape to Mondeo man and other "middle England" nimby marginals to gain/stay in control - BECAUSE, that is the status quo, rightly or wrongly termed "progress". Your "ideal" socialist society CANNOT any longer exist,it's gone, dead, been superceded. SO, he's trying to put things "about" right and "about" equitable to all - any more than "about" is patently impossible - I sincerely believe that - but you can't put things right in 2,3 or even 10 terms of office. Thatcher made sure of that - Blair inherited the last tory government's trail of almost complete social destruction - Labour are/haveto walk/ing the unpleasant tightrope between the greedy and the needy - with metered bias towards society and the needy - hoping to give the pathologically greedy and selfish quasi tory dupes their share, whilst at the same time not allowing them carte blanch to once again rip the fabric of society as they will, and if re-elected - certainly would.

I'll get me coat...

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,capitalism a gogo
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:01 PM

could somebody please explain/I> to piers and akenation

the difference between [and relative merits of]

a theoretical critique of socio-economic goals

.. and pragmatic political realism..



sorry got to pop out to the shops right now
to return some mis-advertised overpriced faulty luxury lifestyle goods ..

.. just joking..

really i need to go to tescos to look for edible cheap 'end of sell by date' food for my family for the weekend...

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:10 PM

Akenaton, why note vote SSP?

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Piers
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:16 PM

A gogo, perhaps you should explain the difference between a theoretical critique of socio-economic goals ... and pragmatic political realism. yourself.

The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it.Marx

In practice - reality - pragmatic, expedient or reactionary politics are not taking society down a road I want to be on.

Alanabit, the Labour Party have never been a socialist party, so I would never have supported them, even when they were a 'proper labour party'. The party was formed from various organisations that represented the labour movement and whilst the 'grassroots' of the labour party has contained many of a quite deep red persuasion. Many far-leftists are coming up with all kinds of fantastic strategies for reducing labours majority with the idea that a labour party in power will mean that it will be easier to lobby for a move back to the left. There are problems in this, the weakened labour movement are contributing less to the Labour Party and rich individuals are contributing more - they cannot really help but follow the money - and   the wily new labourites have changed the structure of the labour party and the parlimentary labour party is much less tied to the actual labour party, I'm told.

There is a campaign to get rid of Blair and 'reclaim' the labour party (http://www.backingblair.co.uk (watch the videos they are v funny))

As for complicity in the latest war, I suppose as there was no referendum or election between the idea of a war being widely publicised and the act of war itself there was no opportunity for direct democratic decision making (even if you could accept that electing a representative can be about one issue) so you are limited to taking direct action (if you don't mind getting truncheoned or worse), going on marches, faxyourMPdotcomming and publically declaring your opposition to the war in an attempt to build a critical mass that would make the Downing Street elite reconsider for their own self-preservation. Looking back at the Iraq threads Ake, and other 'catters, did a stirling job, as so I think they should not feel at all complicit in the war.

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.Orwell

PS Have you seen that film called 'Complicity' starring Johnny Lee Miller and Keeley Hawes - I liked it, but I'm not sure many folk are aware of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:40 PM

Piers... As i haven't voted since New Labour reared its ugly head. I personally dont feel complicit in the attack on Iraq, and the subsequent maiming of children and civilians.
However, the conduct of this government, supposedly representing left of centre voters, should make people think carefully before marking the box.


At election time, all the Capitalist parties present taxation and the penny in our pocket as the major issue, appealing as always to the lowest common denominator, human avarice.

Those of us who feel the need to endorse these slimy creatures, should try to see beyond the pieces of silver and think how their policies might impact on innocents both here and abroad.
Failure to do so, is in my opionion as much a crime as those committed by Bush or Blair.

The Uk electoral system, is fast becomming a carbon copy of the American one, a phony war with only one winner..Capitalism.

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: GUEST,John Wilson
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:12 PM

What is needed now is violent revolution as the answer to all our ills.

Followed by the rule of a benevolent dictator.

Then all democratic parties can be declared illegal.

Solves everything, OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Rory Bremner
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:14 PM

I hope you're being sarcastic...