No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: nager
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 12:54 AM

Who cares? Most folkies play and sing out of tune anyway!!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:40 AM

Been trying to learn a little theory got a book..
I too was laboring under the misapprehension that there was no B sharp
it make writing out some scales a bit awkward if you cant put a B sharp now and then.
Also I found that the face/ even good bras don't fit aide memoirs have caused me problems when putting the dots in..
Hopefully the errant blasphemer will read mudcat and discover the true way.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Darowyn
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:03 AM

I don't suppose Josepp has considered the idea that maybe the reported comment of the teacher actually included something like the phrase,
" In the key of C major......."
In most keys there is no B sharp. I make it two out of twenty four.
So if the teacher was teaching scales, he or she was mostly correct, and it would be particularly applicable to the usual keys that a guitar player uses.
When did you last start a tune in F sharp or E flat minor without a capo?
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:22 AM

Don Firth: at the time, not everybody and his pet chicken was trying to do it

Don, I would dearly love to have heard these chickens. Were they yokels?

Incidentally, Josepp, the person who is really qualified to teach music theory is the person who knows how to teach. No amount of knowledge, theoretical and/or practical, is of any use if the person putting it across is a poor teacher. My violin teacher - adept at both classical and traditional playing - is a wonderful teacher, capable of explaining concepts with clarity and, at the same time, always looking for the positive in one's playing.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:03 AM

But the real question is:

How is the B# in the Pythagorean Tempered Scale different from that in the Werckmeister III Temper, vs the Vallotti, vs the Kirnberger III Temper, vs the Young Temper vs the Kellner Tempered scales?

And why is there a difference between the Mean Tone Tempered E♭ scale and the Mean Tone Tempered D♯ sufficient for Korg to indicate tunings separately for each (along with each of the above) on their OT-120 Tuner?

Of course every competent music theory teacher will know the answers, and be able instantly to explain to every student.

AND ALL STUDENTS MUST KNOW ALL THE ANSWERS OR THEIR TEACHER IS CONDEMNED TO LISTEN TO ACCORDIONS (PLAYED BADLY) IN ETERNAL HELL!

John

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:11 AM

Sounds about right, John.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:18 AM

I suggest we call an Extraordinary Special Meeting to discuss all this at D♭ House.

〠♩﹟Michael ♪♭〠

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:20 AM

LOL !!!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Zen
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:22 AM

It's not about making music fun. If you have to have music made fun for you before you learn it, you're not going to make it as a musician. It involves study and it involves practice and it involves lots of both. There's no way around it. You have to take your lessons home and practice them. And if you come back and you're not playing them correctly, your teacher has to know that and he has to tell you that it's not right. He can't do that if he doesn't know how to read music. Sorry, but that's the truth.

No.... it's not the truth, it's your opinion.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: pavane
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:25 AM

I think there has not been sufficient attention given to two important facts.

First, that sheet music is for the purpose of communication between musicians, who may be separated in space or time. (As pointed out above, you don't have to read to be able to play). So the rules for a notation must be fixed.

Secondly, and mainly important for chordal instruments, the type of chord can easily be seen by the SHAPE it makes on the staff. Check, for example, a dominant 7th - it will ALWAYS look the same, however much you transpose keys - it just moves up or down on the staff. This is one of the lesser-known beauties of the notation, and makes sight-reading easier than it would otherwise be.

If you now decide to write a B# on the staff as C, then in the chord of G# as mentioned above, ITS SHAPE WILL BE CHANGED, and the chord will no longer look as it should.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:25 AM

Much of the controversy above, BTW, re the theoreticians v. what the folk would actually have known, reminds me of the story of Cecil Sharp's friend looking at one of his transcriptions and saying, "No, you must have taken this down wrong, Cecil. You surely are not trying to tell me that a simple uneducated countryman could sing faultlessly in the Dorian Mode."

~Michael~

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:32 AM

John wrote:
A proper response to the student's statement would have been the simple reply that "technically there is a C# that is the enharmonic equivalent of the second semitone above C♭ on equal-tempered instruments."

From the practical point of view, a teacher who is teaching their student to read music should at least do this, so that if/when the student encounters a B# or C flat etc. in printed music, they understand how to play it. To start with, they may not need fully to understand WHY it's printed that way.

If a teacher says there is no such note, how do they deal with music that has that note in it?

A piece in the key of C sharp major has a B sharp in the time signature, and though it's unusual, it's valid.
More commonly, a piece in C sharp minor (only four sharps in the key signature) will have B sharps as accidentals.

Same goes for E sharp for music in F# major or minor.

C flat major is possible as a key too (seven flats) and contains an F flat, and G flat (a perfectly vlid and commonly found key) contains C flat as part of the scale.

If you are not teaching playing from music, you might as well not give the notes names at all...

---

The issue of equal tempered vs. mean tone and the rest is a quite unrelated, though it does have some bearing on how notes are played. It doesn't only apply to flat/sharp/natural enharmonics either. In scales other than equal temperament, an E may be different in A major from an E in C major, for example.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: treewind
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:34 AM

Sorry, GUEST posting two up is me, not having noticed loss of cookie...
Anahata

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:35 AM

I once said to a parent, "I'll believe 10% of what happens at home if you believe 10% of what happens in class."

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:35 AM

"When I watch musicians that I respect play, they can all play straight off sheet music. That is how it should be. Anything less damages our culture"

This presupposed that music in our culture was composed and entered into the tradition via a written down form.

Sheet music can only be a snapshot of how one person has documented another persons playing, and by taking this as definitive loses everything that makes it part of the culture. How can one tell what the person who made a song or tune intended from a third party documentation.

What sheet music cannot capture are the nuances that the musician/performer adds to the notes - subtle (or not so subtle)improvisations, variations, the warmth of the tone - things that a skilled musician can do which cannot be documented.

I think it was Leonard Berstein who said that it is easy to tell the difference between a person playing or a machine. The machine is note and meter perfect and totally lacking any aesthetic value, whereby a person's imperfection is what makes music pleasing.

In my opinion, the greatest musicians are those who have the ability to interpret music - if you listen to a recording of them playing, and you know their work, you can tell who it is in an instant.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Max Johnson
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:50 AM

Please, Please...This is ANARCHY!!!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:52 AM

What's an archy?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:58 AM

nine nine nine

a cockroach who befriended a cat called mehitabel and typed her entirely lower-case letters coz he couldn't reach the shift key

dont you know from nothing

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:02 AM

a person's imperfection is what makes music pleasing

So that's why I'm so popular! :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:08 AM

You can play, and you can teach how to play, without ever referring to music notation or theory.

Misinforming people about aspects of theory, or making money out of presenting yourself as an authourity on theory when you actually don't understand it at all, is fraudulent.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:14 AM

Josepp said: The best guitarist I ever played with can't read. What has that got to do with anything??? I'm talking about someone who is being paid to teach music and is apparently teaching it wrong.

What it "has to do with anything" is that EARLIER you said:

Josepp said: When I watch musicians that I respect play, they can all play straight off sheet music. That is how it should be. Anything less damages our culture.

You made no mention of teaching music there...you quite clearly stated, in black and white, that every musician (NOT teacher) that you respect can read music and that musicians who can't damage our culture. So presumably the "best guitarist you ever played with" is someone you don't actually respect and who you believe is damaging our culture! It's there. You said it. I can't see any other way to read it?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:16 AM

Some realities are crimes. Others are recriminations.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:33 AM

I've just spent the last half hout playing ascending and descending minor scales when I should be working!!!!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:09 AM

SPB - I am very glad to hear it!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM

Let's simplify this.
The key of C major comprises the following notes:
C
C##
C####
C#####
C#######
C#########
C###########
C############ (or just C)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:32 AM

Is that a game of Lotto {or Housey-Housey}?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM

GOOD SOLDIER SCHWEIK never mentioned a harp, sorry to harp on about it, but that is one fact that is true on this thread.
I would likie to nominate kansas johns post too, excellent.I have just spent the last hour and a half painting my House ., WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN PLAYING MUSIC.
SORRY,but i am out of here this is a complete waste of time

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: s&r
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:40 AM

Is Hsharp the same as C in Germany?

Stu

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:42 AM

On a piano, yes.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:44 AM

Well, you had all better B#, that's what I say...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

Anyone remember an awful Sci Fi movie called The Gamma People?   Gamma radiation screwed up a group of people and made them like Zombies.
One of them turned out to be a genius named Hugo. He was instructing a little girl as she played piano. He was brow beating her with statements such as, "Music should be a precise configuration, not a sentimental noise."

When it comes to music theory, I feel like a clam digger at a MENSA convention.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:03 AM

LOIUS ARMSTRONGS HOARSE.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM

As a self taught guitarist with very bad Osteo Arthritic fingeers who can't physically managed certain chords, I'm amazed how many songs on chord web sites have what I consider far too many chords, yes ok if you're a serious musician or learning formally, or have healthy fingers, then of course you want to play ALL the chords. Yet most of my repertoire, much of which originally had quite complicated chords, I've found or devised much simpler chords for, and from listening to others basically sound just as good, I'm sure all the serious misicians might be horrified, but is it really neccessary to play ALL the chords given?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 09:03 AM

No, I generally sing over any stuff I can't do or don't feel necessary

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 09:11 AM

In actual fact, about 5 months after I was told that I was a saxophonist (at age 13), my band director expressed an interest in a particular piece of music and asked if I might be able to play it.

(It was a Beethoven piece.)

The only dots I could find for the piece was an arrangement for piano in A♭ minor. (signature on the score C♭ major)

When I played it for him, straight from the dots, he affirmed that it sounded fine but complained that it would be a lot of work for him to rewrite the piano part for an accompaniment for my B♭ saxophone.

So I kicked it up two semitones and played it for him in what was B♭ minor (C♯ major) for my instrument, so he'd be able to play from the original score in A♭ minor (C♭ major).

Then he looked at the sheet music and discovered he'd be playing 7 flats (while I played 7 sharps) and decided he wasn't really as interested as he thought he'd been.

I never did bother to look up whether that sheet music really was the key that Beethoven used when he wrote the piece.

John

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: treewind
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM

If you'd only gone up another semitone you'd have been in B minor (2 sharps) and the piano would have been in A minor (no key sig at all)...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Crowhugger
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:54 PM

GSS at 8:03 a.m. today: ROTFL...And for quite a few minutes! Thank you.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Crowhugger
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:05 PM

GUEST unnamed, 5:32 a.m. today said: The issue of equal tempered vs. mean tone and the rest is a quite unrelated, though it does have some bearing on how notes are played.

In musical life, music theory and proper chord spellings are important because they represent something we do. Yet when we "do" B# and C in equal temperament, there is no difference between their sounds. It's not until we "do" these notes in meantone and justly intoned scales that they sound different from each other. So I would say that the issue of which type of scale cuts directly to the heart of the question.

The a cappella ensembles in which I sing strive to interpret dots using intervals based on the physics of sound (mostly 3-limit just intonation, yet I doubt our singers know it's called that), which approach allows overtones to ring out freely. For us, the difference between B# and C surely does matter.

Just intonation sounds bright and alive next to the comparatively duller, non-ringing sound that results when our singers sometimes revert to the compromise versions of intervals known as equal temperament, which predominates in life.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

I thought this was a FOLK music forum...

I'm not one of those "opposed" to musical literacy ~ I recognize that additional knowledge is just about always a positive thing ~ but I do contend that most music (including ALL folk music, and virtually all vocal music) comes first from the heart and the imagination, and that transcription of musical creations in written form is secondary ~ it occurs afterwards.

Hell, I feel pretty sure that even orchestral arrangements are "heard" in the composer's mind before (s)he writes the "dots" down on paper.

I feel ambivalent about posting my comment, about participating in this discussion at all, because too much time and thought has already been wasted upon an utterly meaningless argument. Couldn't resist the temptation, sad to say...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:57 PM

"C Sharp on BBC radio 4"

THAT is a thread title. Notice the thread starter said C Sharp, NOT D Flat.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:58 PM

I've enjoyed all the waste and utterly meaningless arguement. Keep it coming.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: C-flat
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:01 PM

"Why, that can't be right!!!! There's no such thing as C-flat, only B!

Hmmmm. To B, or not to B.....

C-flat. (am I real?)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: mandomad
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM

Too effin' technical for me, I've never found a B~Sharp on my mandolins, or the need for one. Just play...



      mandomad

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:33 PM

Exactly so, mandomad.

I'm all for knowing all about everything. But—

One does not have to have a degree in Electrical Engineering in order to flip on a light switch.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM

Just to start a little further discussion: As an old folk musician, I once purchased a button accordion which apparently came from Germany and which I though was in F Major. After inspecting it some time after I had it, I discovered the Key was stamped on the bottom end as E#. Accompiment seemed to be fine using F Major on other instruments. Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:18 PM

I'm sure it's already been said above, but B# certainly exists and is needed - for example as the the "tee" ( as in "lah, tee, do") - in the scale of C# minor.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM

I learnt my theory as a child alongside classical piano lessons, but I've always followed the very basic rule that if a note's got a # on it, you just play the next note up. It seems to work quite satisfactorily. I don't believe any teacher would actually make the claim that B# doesn't exist, but nevertheless anyone already capable of reading a 'B' could work out how to interpret a B#, should they encounter one, without a great deal of thinking, special training or knowledge.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM

HiHo (if I may be so informal as to address you by your first name), if you can find out when the accordion was made, that could provide a clue as to what's going on. An international conference in 1939 established Standard or Concert Pitch as A=440 hertz (cycles per second). Prior to that it had been all over the map, as low as 423 and as high as 455.

I'm just guessing, but that may have something to do with it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

GSSchweik, sorry, but you did mention a harp, in your first post. A bs harp, specifically, as I said.
It tickled me, as some typo's do.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

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