No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 02:45 PM

josepp has been a real tit on this thread, and he started it. He's like that on many threads he visits. WHY is everyone believing he told the truth to begin with?

Sufferin' Jaysus.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:03 PM

Back in da olden timez, we called this "trolling".

This argument has been going on as long as I've been on Mudcat... as long as I've been reading music stuff on the internet.

There are the ones who like teaching and being taught vs the ones who like observing and figuring stuff out. Rules exist for people who aren't capable of learning on their own. Of course, the self-taught can miss things, and most of us use a mixture of learning techniques.

A person who isn't any good, doesn't bother trying to learn rules.
A person who's good learns rules and follows them.
A person who's GREAT learns rules and then figures out how to successfully break them.

The B# thing is a silly argument. Yes, I understand there is a difference between B# and C, and some people actually can hear it. In the end, though, this is all language. Musical notation and language used to describe music exists so we can communicate ideas. Once it stops being about communication, language is useless. Once the words mean more to someone than the thing they describe, that person has is a problem.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 03:08 PM

And remember, the teacher in the OP was teaching guitar to an adult who could get other advice easily, not theory to a child. But the OPs attitude if applied to the teaching of theory to a child, could be catastrophic - and often is.

One Who Knows From Bitter Experiece

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 06:04 PM

It all depends why you're having lessons, what you want to learn, and what the teacher is purporting to teach. Condemning an unknown and quite possibly imaginary guitar teacher for simplifying harmony to someone who may well be just wanting to learn a few chords to sing to is just silly, though it's drawn out some interesting views, which I hope was the purpose. However, everyone except the alleged teacher dangling in the noose seems to be in agreement on the existence and nature of B#, and we're not really sure about him. Different approaches to teaching and learning music yield different results, and that's what music needs, not a bunch of robots all trying to conform to the same sterilised standards. The proof of the pudding..

For interest's sake: It's been long since shown (ref. my link above) that the brain can detect far finer fluctuations of tone, pitch, tempo, etc. than any performer/the human body can consciously control.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 07:51 PM

"josepp has been a real tit on this thread"

I apologize for that remark, josepp.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 08:10 PM

If only 'twere that simple.

Forgiveness is only for the truly penitent. First, you must taste the gall and wormwood of true remorse.

A chastisement of the flesh is necessary. Personally, I find that wearing underpants with several dozen fish hooks strategically placed inside, whilst listening to the Smurfs second album helps one reach a spiritually higher plane.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 08:40 PM

Well, it's a slow day at the skunk works, so why not?

As I mentioned about 700 posts up-thread, my first guitar instruction came from my then girl friend who was teaching herself how to play the fine old 1898 George Washburn "Ladies Model" parlor guitar she had inherited from her grandmother. Claire could read vocal music fairly well and was learning songs from a 25¢ paperback book (A Treasury of Folk Songs compiled by John and Sylvia Kolb that she bought off a local drugstore paperback rack) and a copy of John and Alan Lomax's Best Loved American Folksongs (aka Folksong U. S. A.), and teaching herself guitar chords from a copy of Guckert's Chords for Guitar Without Notes or Teacher that she had picked up somewhere.

Claire taught me G, C, and D7, which was about as far as she had got at that point.

I already sang some, so I decided it might be kind of fun to learn a bit of guitar and sing a few folk songs myself (I had heard Burl Ives on the radio, the Weavers on juke boxes, and I'd seen Susan Reed in a movie about a young mountain girl singing folk songs in a New York night club). So I went down to Myer's Music on Seattle's First Avenue near the waterfront where all the pawn shops are. The fellow there sold me a little Regal plywood guitar for $9.95, a fiberboard case for $5.00, threw in a free pick, and sold me a copy of Nick Manaloff's Spanish Guitar Method, which included the "Special Handy-Dandy Nick Manoloff Chord Wheel." This latter was my introduction to music theory. A sort of circular slide-rule with which you could dial a key and it would show you the guitar chord diagrams for the three primary chords of that key, plus the secondary chords (double-dominants, etc., enabling modulation to other keys), and the relative minor chords. Very handy gadget!

Clueless as I was, I was lucky with that little guitar. The neck was true, the action was good, and the intonation was on, a real crap-shoot with a guitar in that price range. It had a tone more like an apple crate than a guitar, but at least it could be tuned accurately and it was playable.

Walt Roberson (see "Tales of Walt Robertson" thread) was a young local folk singer who had recently won a Talent U. S. A. contest, had just come out with a Folkways Record, and had a weekly television program. After Claire and I heard him sing live, I was so enthralled with the songs he sang and the way he sang them that I went bananas! I decided that I wanted to sing for people the way he did!

I kept running into Walt at The Chalet, a local University District restaurant, so I hit him up for guitar lessons. He told me he wasn't a teacher, but he'd show me what he could. I took some six months' lessons from Walt, who didn't show me anything about notes at all. He demonstrated and I tried to copy what he did. I kept picking songs off Richard Dyer-Bennet records to learn and trying to figure out what Dyer-Bennet was doing on the guitar, and eventually Walt recommended that I go to a local classical guitar teacher we had both heard of (with the oddly rural-sounding name of Joe Farmer).

Joe sold me a Martin 00-28-G classic, then set about tidying up my hand positions a bit and started me working on scales, exercises, and simple classic guitar pieces from written music. Tarrèga's Lagrima and Adelita, a little Chopin Waltz that he had transcribed for the guitar, other pieces. And he came up with some ideas for song accompaniments also. He was familiar with Richard Dyer-Bennet ("As a classic guitarist, he's no Segovia, but he's pretty good.") and he knew Ed McCurdy personally, before McCurdy started becoming well known around.

All of this was in the early 1950s. While in Denver in late 1955, I first sang for a formal audience. I had expected a couple of dozen people. I was used to singing at parties and informal song fests by then, but I walked in and found an audience of about 250. I damned near shat! But I got through it, the audience wanted encores, I felt like smiling a lot, and the following day, I decided "I'm gonna DO it!" and made plans to change my major to Music with a minor in English Literature when I returned to the University of Washington.

Y'know what? Claire never mentioned the matter. Walt never mentioned the matter. Joe never mentioned the matter. Nor did Mrs. Bianchi, the voice teacher I started taking lessons from when I was in my late teens ever mentioned the matter. It wasn't until I was studying Music Theory at the University of Washington that the matter was mentioned that on very rare and specific occasions, a C should be written as a B#. And for the same reason, an F should be written as E#. And a B should be written as a Cb and an E should be written as an Fb.

This, by the way, came up as a verbal footnote in a music calligraphy class, where we were sitting there with our blank manuscript paper, our bottles of India ink, and our quivers of calligraphy pens.

It was not until Josepp brought the matter up as a Federal case and a hanging offense did the matter intrude on my consciousness after what amounts to a pretty comprehensive musical education and a 55+ career in music as both a performer and teacher.

How are you going to adequately police the music teaching profession the way Josepp seems to want it policed when "teaching" consists of such things as a young woman teaching herself out of a chord book and her boyfriend asks, "Show me how you do that?" Or a performing musician is approached by a fan who says (again), "Show me how you do that?" Or by someone who has been a professional musician and teacher for years and hasn't yet had a reasonable occasion to teach music theory beyond the necessary basics without running the danger of bewildering the student?

Or for the same reason, a teacher who, in order to avoid confusing a student says, essentially, "Don't worry about that, it's nothing you need to concern yourself with right now."

Which, I believe, is more than likely what the teacher that Josepp is complaining about so bitterly was really saying to his student.

And what about all those hard-and-fast rules of music theory, anyway? In my first quarter of first year music theory, Professor John Verrall was laying out the rules of "voice leading" for the beginning four-part harmony exercises he wanted us to write out, one of the students began bridling at these rules and asked, "Why do we have to learn all these rules, anyway!?" Professor Verrall, in his characteristic mild-mannered way (reminded one a bit of Mr. Rogers, actually) responded, "So that when we break the rules of correct harmony, we will know why we are doing it."

Thus endeth the second sermon for this week. And it isn't even Sunday yet! Don't you feel blessed?

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, Josepp, although I'm convinced that this whole thread began as a troll on your part (say something totally over the top, then sit back and bask in the glow of the donnybrook you've precipitated by tossing that turd into the punchbowl), nonetheless, I believe that this thread has inadvertently proven quite valuable and has provoked some worthwhile discussion.

But judging from some of the others you've launched, were I you, I would check with my therapist before continuing in this vein, least you fall into the error of actually starting to believe some of the nincompoopish things you tend to assert.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: squeezyjohn
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:01 PM

Could I please be excused for having skimmed over this thread, there's a lot of noise on it - but the argument contains a very important principle for me.

I don't read music very well and certainly don't think of music in terms of notes on a stave. For equal temperament B sharp IS C but written out in a horrendously complicated fashion - that's the fact.

A tune in C is the same tune when it's in D or E and a quarter! What makes you choose that key is down to range of voice - the tuning of the instrument, or whatever. Intonation within the scale is a matter of taste or convenience - if you stay in one key then you have the luxury of choosing more perfect harmonies as notes of your scale if your chosen instrument can do that. If you need to modulate all over the shop then you're probably better sticking with equal temperament because that's more flexible if less perfect. Different keys sound different to us because of the resonances in our own heads combined with our own experience of having heard notes before.

Music theory is a very good scientific approach to explain what we understand as music in absolute terms. But following it to the letter will always detract from the music itself because music is only music and not science and you just have to make the nicest noise for yourself and anyone who can be bothered to listen to you.

Anyone here who defines music by what they read on a stave or knows from training in music theory would do well to try and distance themselves from both those things when listening to or performing music itself because it only ever gets in the way of the actual process, give it a go - music is a totally different animal when released from the captivity of theory and transcription in it's basic form.

Cheers

Squeezy

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: squeezyjohn
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:17 PM

Dick Miles wrote early in this thread: play the music enjoy it, and when you judge a teacher judge him on how good his pupils are and.... has he enthused his pupils with a love of music, not on whether he called something bs harp or c

Totally agree with this statement - music teachers sometimes overlook this absolutely essential ingredient in making children like music and it's sad to bring the innocent in to our world of dogma which easily removes the magic of music.

I think totally understanding music is a natural state we are all born with - but society is massively to blame for teaching us that we do not understand enough to be participants because of the complicated, human-imposed classical rules involved. I have yet to meet a child of under 5 who cannot sing/play by ear. But by 5 and at school they are already taught that they don't know as much as they actually know and you are fighting a losing battle with society's prejudices which I'm afraid are shaped by the classical music world who have an assumed intellectual monopoly on making anyone who can afford lessons mediocre at playing music with the vague possibility that one day they will be brilliant.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:40 PM

Pointless about young kids learning music. It's no different than a kid learning to be an Olympic gymnast--only a few are ever going to make it. The rest simply don't have what it takes. If I'm wrong, everybody in the world would be a world-class musician. It isn't that way, never has been and never will no matter what you teach them. Teach it right and those few meant for it will catch on. The rest go adios.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 02 Apr 11 - 09:54 PM

Show us the way, oh Great One, whilst we still have time to atone for our vile unspeakable ways. How shall we punish ourselves for this abomination? Lead us along the true path of enlightenment, that we may please thy exalted ear.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:27 AM

Don't make me laugh. Most of you here couldn't tune a damn guitar.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:28 AM

999: "Guest,999: "In terms of interpretation, musicians are as likely to reinterpret stuff they have heard as they are to reinterpret stuff they have read."

More as likely??....Well speak for yourself! Some of us write our own, from somewhere else. Interpret: ORIGINAL music!.."

Listen up, and stop trying to earn a reputation as an arrogant asshole--and I mean that in the nicest possible way. I was quoting Lox--read the fucking thread. I just happen to agree with him."

Originally, I thought it was Lox, but you know what?....I was speaking of 'interpreting' the music from within, Original..not a rendition of a cover tune....and I also meant that in the nicest, supporting way. I don't know what crawled up your 'thing', to interpret what I posted as arrogant....but, beauty, as well as 'ugly' is in the eye of the beholder!

And my quote, "More as likely??....Well speak for yourself! Some of us write our own, from somewhere else. Interpret: ORIGINAL music!.."
Stands....This time, re-read it, without the 'interpretation' of thinking it was 'less' than supportive, of those who create ORIGINAL music!

.....Wasn't just whistlin' Dixie!..(besides, its not original, and it would only be an 'interpretation'.....

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:43 AM

You have no way of knowing that, josepp.

But I heard you on Youtube, and at best you are a so-so guitarist and at best a mediocre singer. Your tuning was close to good--but not quite there.

Please give the "hard ass" routine a rest. No one here is impressed.

The gravity when you come into the camera view, the seriousness of your demeanor, the wrong angle of attack that your fingers take when you get above fret four--well, you would last about two stanzas on stage in a good club and then you'd have no interested audience left. I don't know who filled you with such love of yourself--perhaps the mirror that hangs behind you to the viewers' right. You are knowledgeable about music, but not really a good musician. You have arrogance and no heart. This will be my last post to this or any other of your threads until such time as you become polite. I don't come to Mudcat to meet assholes, and you are certainly one of those so far.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 01:14 AM

Who are you talking to, 999. Josepp?, or me?..I don't have a youtube video, and if you're talking to josepp, may I suggest that your 'critique' of him, is a bit on the 'arrogant asshole' side of things, wouldn't you say?

I'm thinking you might be drunk, or stoned, or something, because in other posts, you seemed a bit more coherent, and less belligerent.
Anyway, no offense taken, on this side....you offered your 'opinion', and you know what they say about opinions.......

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 04:00 AM

Scales: "I'm sure, somewhere on the 'net' you can find the patterns, and print them, to use for reference. "

Major: T T S joining Tone T T S.

Minor: T S T ...

Oh, I can't be bothered,

Peanuts anyone?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:28 AM

Don't make me laugh. Most of you here couldn't tune a damn guitar.

Josepp, I promised you in a PM that I wouldn't reveal your YouTube identity on Mudcat. I've kept that promise and will continue to do so. Neither have I commented on your videos on your YouTube channel, and I won't comment directly here. But - I will say, from what I've seen, that your quote above is, as we say over here, "a bit thick".

well, here's a little present for you:

The Love Nest

Whether you like it or approve of the music is up to you. But just ponder your quote above and remember that I'm just a small and humble member of a band of very knowledgeable, talented, experienced Mudcatters. Think of that before you write such stuff.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 07:57 AM

"You've gone from "if you can hear it you can notate it" to "you can come up with custom notation and teach your custom markings to others and then they can read it". The two aren't even close to being the same."

To me it is very much the same - but perhaps the reason for that is that I am a Jazz Guitarist - a field of expertise where such notationary evolution has already produced plenty of alredy mainstream marks and abbreviations etc.

The assumpton may I think be yours, that if you read or write notation, then you are trapped by classical terms and symbols.

In fact, even in classical music, composers have often evolved written notation to suit their ideas, just as language and the written word have evolved.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Accordians ?
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:46 AM

My Father's accordian had flats and sharps for the entire keyboard.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:30 AM

I just want to say Will - that was absolutely fabulous - breathtaking stuff! Well done! that was terrific! I loved that.

i love Bix and all his all his crowd. I'm just finishing Mezzrow's autobiography. Countme in asa member of your fan club.

(I haven't got a clue about this B sharp business. perhaps its a bit like Muslims and Christians - there are people wandering the earth who think the other lot are mistaken. That sort of thing happens. Is it really worth all this huff and puffing? If this Josepp chap thinks this and it makes him happy - does it matter? Not to me. i wonder why it matters to him - but not enough to argue with him. for all i know - he could believe all sorts of bollocks about everything. Are we going to discuss and take issue with everything in his little world? he seems to sincerely hold these views. best of luck to him)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:35 AM

Al - that's very kind of you indeed. I remember reading Mezzrow's autobiography many years ago. A friend of mine from our London band remembers waiting outside Dobell's Record shop in Charing Cross Road for a signing when Mezzrow came to England. He was the ultimate in hip - talking black slang - and very full of himself, but great fun apparently.

I always thought that Mezzrow considered himself as a kind of 2nd-line Bechet - they even looked alike - but, in the end, Bechet had the inspiration. Still, the biog is a fascinating picture of the times.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:02 AM

Will Fly: "Don't make me laugh. Most of you here couldn't tune a damn guitar."

..or get past the 'secret chord progression' of Kumbayah!!

Will, I've dug your playing, and posted as much on here several times. I'm SURE that when you pick up your ax, you've done your homework. The proof is in the listening! I just can't agree with those who seem to think it unnecessary, as if it would 'bother' them, or 'insult' their egos!

Nice playing.

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:13 AM

///The gravity when you come into the camera view, the seriousness of your demeanor, the wrong angle of attack that your fingers take when you get above fret four--well, you would last about two stanzas on stage in a good club and then you'd have no interested audience left. I don't know who filled you with such love of yourself--perhaps the mirror that hangs behind you to the viewers' right. You are knowledgeable about music, but not really a good musician. You have arrogance and no heart. This will be my last post to this or any other of your threads until such time as you become polite. I don't come to Mudcat to meet assholes, and you are certainly one of those so far.////

I almost thought you had actually seen my videos because I am mediocre at best. I've never said anything else about my own playing. But then I realize you haven't seen them because there's no mirror in the video--Will Fly will attest to that. Hell, there's no mirror in that room.

Otherwise, your criticism of me was pretty spot-on.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:33 AM

////Josepp, I promised you in a PM that I wouldn't reveal your YouTube identity on Mudcat. I've kept that promise and will continue to do so. Neither have I commented on your videos on your YouTube channel, and I won't comment directly here. But - I will say, from what I've seen, that your quote above is, as we say over here, "a bit thick".////

Relax, Will, I'm just trolling. I want to run this thread up past 400 posts and beyond. People here are like Afghans after that pastor burned that koran. Rioting and hurting each other and it's like--what the hell for? He's some dork in Florida!! Apparently my words actually matter to these people--god knows why. Half the stuff I said I didn't even mean. I am as much of a nobody as has ever existed. Hell, my knowledge of music theory isn't worth a shit. But once people started violently reacting--I couldn't resist. I know it was wrong. Maybe I've been corrupted by my newfound power.

Don't get me wrong--I mean, there's been some good stuff on here. that's why I've kept it going. Some really insightful stuff. It was better than I'd hoped for. That stuff doesn't demean Mudcat--it demonstrates it to be a place that can still have a good discussion about the things the rest of the world is too wrapped up in reality TV to think about.

I was disappointed by the "Who gives a shit about this stupid crap" crowd. I give a shit about this stupid crap. If you don't want to discuss it--leave. Don't come in here and urinate all over everybody else and walk out. Fuck you.

Sorry about encouraging all my haters to participate with all the jabs, sarcasm and mean-spiritedness that they can't seem to stop displaying on any thread I start (except when it's a subject they know nothing about--like drums) but it was necessary to keep the thread alive for the occasional gem one can dig out in between all the nasty muck. It's all about knowing how to play your audience.

Oh, well. Keep em comin, folks. Let's not set the bar too high. Let's shoot for 350 and then we'll take it from there.

PS - Yes, I admit it. I made up the incident in the OP. There was no student talking about any instructor. I wanted to get a good discussion about music and theory going that wouldn't sink to the bottom of the heap in an hour's time. It was a shot in the dark but give me credit, it worked.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:39 AM

Well, you reap what you sow...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:02 PM

Yes, but then there is some good stuff I posted for you a few posts ago, which is instructional and can be made good use of. I think Will would also agree!

See:   Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
       From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
       Date: 01 Apr 11 - 09:48 AM

However, as my dear violinist/fiddler says, "Music is a Gift, it is not to be ignored, if you have that gift, and you should study everything you can about it...But all the studying in the world cannot give you the gift, if you don't have it. Practice, practice, practice!"

GfS

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:10 PM

24 to go.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:13 PM

I think this subject interesting and I hope my posts have been food for thought at least.

Sometimes the thread becomes valuable despite the nonsense that some people deliberately write.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 12:25 PM

Well, I'm probably more guilty of nonsense than anyone else here. A lot of the stuff I said was purely to get more posts flowing and didn't reflect what I really feel or was something I really have no opinion about at all, e.g. Lennon did a disservice by not learning to read music--pure nonsense. And my remark about people here not being able to tune a guitar was a bit over the top which is why I'm coming clean now.

Yes, Lox, you posted some excellent stuff. A lot of people did. There's these gems of knowledge and experience locked up inside people who don't normally talk about it even though it might be valuable to others. So I was trying to get those people to post and some did. It was good stuff. It probably would not have gotten posted any other way. Sometimes you have to be a sqeaky wheel to get the grease flowing. Just asking how many have grease doesn't get them interested enough to answer.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PHJim
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 01:10 PM

josepp said,"But if you are going to learn, learn from someone you know is qualified. If that person doesn't have a degree in music--good luck."

This depends on your goals. If you're aspiring to be a music theory teacher or a classical musician, perhaps your teacher should have a degree. If you want to be a folk singer, country singer, singer/songwriter, pop singer, rock singer... you'll probably find people without degrees who can do a great job of teaching you. People like Happy Traum, Stephan Grossman, Rev Gary Davis, Mike Seeger, Pete Seeger... have taught many successful musicians without having musical degrees, assuming that honourary degrees don't count. Pete Wernick, an accomplished banjo teacher, has a degree, but it's not in music.

I think we should agree with josepp that if you want to learn music theory, you should learn from someone who knows music theory and that person will often have a degree; but many of the world's most successful musicians don't have degrees in music and don't need them to make wonderful music and make people happy and to teach others how to do the same.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 04:10 PM

Before I can make anyone happy with my music, I have to make myself happy with it and I just don't feel not knowing how to read and kowing my theory makes me happy. I want to be able to play anything not just one genre. I can play by ear, tabs, and sheet music. I wouldn't have minded learned from Gary Davis but I would still learn to read music. I'm not Gary Davis.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:03 PM

Thanks for being straight, Josepp - I think you'll find it's generally appreciated.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:30 PM

I think I was lucky in this.

Everyone, myself included , was crazy about the Shadows at the time. My Dad (and aged 11 - you listen to your Dad) said - these guys are okay. But they're nowt compared to fimger style guitarists. The play everything - the lead. the rhythm and the bass.

I said Wow! Who does that? And dad said - Segovia does and theres this black American called Josh White. So I listened out for these guys. And waited my chance and became a finger style guitarist.

However i soon learned that people like Lightnin Hopkins and Robert
Johnson never played four beats in a bar in their life. Neither could they achieve the fluidity of Tal Farlow, the percussive sublety of Django, travel to the surreal soundcscpe continents of Jimi hendrix.

Every one of these guys put their lives on the line and said, this is what my life is going to be about. Nothing else. Your idea that you will do everything shows that you have no idea, what it costs in personal terms to be a man like Bruce Murdoch, a man who put nerve sinew and imagination into doing just one of these things with excellence - your comments are an affront to him. You need to apologise.

You can't have it all. The subleties can't be written down. they've got to be listened for, strived for and experienced. And their use redefined by your own oevre of work.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:33 PM

Gary Davis had an overwhelming disadvantage when it came to reading music, but an acquaintance of mine once took him to a disused airfield because he'd always wanted to try riding a motorbike, which he did successfully, albeit in a straight line. That's what I call guts, and that's apparent in his playing.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 05:58 PM

Murdoch, on the other hand, ate my hamster.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 06:08 PM

"My Father's accordian had flats and sharps for the entire keyboard. "

I've seen such 'accordion keyboards', but never held one in my hand. I've even seen them with what appears to be 3 sets of keyboards stacked under each other. As far as I know, they are not 'Piano' accordions, but 'button boxes', with an unusual right side 'keyboard'.

Hey, what happened to this thread? I go off for more peanuts and everybody goes sane and respectful and well mannered!

Who found the bottle of meds?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:48 PM

Smokey, you have insulted me with that remark. OK, so I ate your hamster. BUT, she gave me permission!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 08:54 PM

.




          Bruce Murdoch ate my Hamster ...


          ... so sayeth Rupert ...



.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:04 PM

Bruce, an Englishman's hamster is his castle.

And yes Lox, I was plagiarising the civilised world's best known headline.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:09 PM

Al, thank you. I have loved your music since I first heard it four or five years ago. I was disappointed that you kinda left it. I understand why, having quit for 2 1/2 decades myself, but understanding don't mean like. You are a damned good writer, and you've never stopped being a good friend.

Bruce

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:26 PM

I can't read that whole article about the hamster sandwich because the writing's too small. Hamsters are fairly large for a sandwich, and I don't think you can buy bread big enough. Also, live hamsters generally have fur and they're slightly squirmier than the average ham slice, although a slice of a nice, ripe comes close. I don't think I believe anybody ate a live hamster sandwhich.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:35 PM

We have big bread here, Jeri, and Bruce is a hard man.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Melissa
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 09:58 PM

I have hesitated to participate in this thread but now I'm starting to like it..

Hamster Love

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 10:10 PM

Bruce, I apologise for bringing up the hamster - OK?

realhamster.com

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:00 PM

///Every one of these guys put their lives on the line and said, this is what my life is going to be about. Nothing else. Your idea that you will do everything shows that you have no idea, what it costs in personal terms to be a man like Bruce Murdoch, a man who put nerve sinew and imagination into doing just one of these things with excellence///

While I admit I have absolutely no idea who the hell Bruce Murdoch is, I will say he's probably better than me if I dedicated my whole life to one single thing. So why should I? I was a drummer for years before I ever picked up a guitar and my first guitar was a bass guitar when I was a teen. Then I joined the military and didn't play an instrument again for close to 15 years. When I got out, I bought a synth and made electronic music. I didn't start playing guitar until 2001 without a lesson or a teacher. Now I'm learning double bass. As far as I see, I can do any damned thing I weant to and nobody can stop me. Not you and not Bruce Murdoch.

////- your comments are an affront to him. You need to apologise.////

Sorry you limited yourself to one thing your whole life, Bruce. Better luck in the next one.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:04 PM

4 to go.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:23 PM

It's a good day,

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:23 PM

and I love

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:23 PM

having an opportunity to help

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Apr 11 - 11:23 PM

the handicapped,