Do you think I could be a professional?

Subject: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: themoment
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:13 AM

Could I make a career of my music? All opinions welcome!

Go to http://www.youtube.com/user/colinjohnrudd

Just if you've nothing better to do on a rainy afternoon of course.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: pavane
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:31 AM

Sorry, can't access yutube from here.

But remember:

However bad you are, there is someone worse who has made a fortune (Names withheld to protect the guilty)

However good you are, there is someone better who hasn't made a penny.

So who can tell?

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 04:05 AM

Here?

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 04:15 AM

I've merely dipped into a couple of songs. They all seemed very nicely done. A lot about "Lord of the Rings". I have been told that it is easier to make a living in "Filk" than in folk or contemporary snigger-snogwriter.

If you can track down Lawrence Dean from Faversham club he may be able to tell you more about how to get revenues from SF-related song: he has at least one nice song about Gormenghast on his list.

It is very very hard indeed to make even the barest living from the wide genre of acoustic music and regrettably stuff like Bedingfield and Blount seems to be the most marketable.

A nuber of people I have known manage(d) by having a fixed income eg a small pension from an early retirement and "topping up" with a gig or two a week. Folk club gigs tend not to pay over £100, and the petrol to get there costs.

If you know a recording studio prepared to take a punt (they invest the studio time and take a share of revenues) it might be worth cutting down the number of your vids on YouTube and promoting CDs to be sold from a website to see what take up there might be. With the increasing number of hime studios it might be a possible route to explore.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 04:52 AM

Sure!

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 06:29 AM

It's very hard to make any kind of judgement from looking at the material on YouTube, because so much depends on how you relate to an audience, how you would structure a concert set and what kind of venues you're thinking of approaching. All you can do is get yourself out there, get as many gigs as you can in the diary and then see if you can afford to give up the day job.
Oh - and be very careful with any Tolkien-related material in a commercial way because the Tolkien estate doesn't look favourably on any use of material that might be construed as breech of copyright! If it's entirely your composition you'll probably be OK, but if you're quoting from text you probably won't be. I tried to get permission to record my musical setting of one of his poems and met a total blank wall, hence my comment!

Anne

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 06:58 AM

Colin, I second Pavane's comment above. I know one or two truly awesome songwriters, greater talents than myself, who in many years of performing have scarcely made a dime or received the slightest bit of recognition. Conversely, I can think of few acts I've seen who really shouldn't be gigging at all IMO. Generally, though I certainly wouldn't say talent wasn't a factor in success; there are other variables like who you know, one's willingness to hob-nob with "the great and the good" (quote marks entirely intentional!), and of course sheer luck or the lack thereof at play too.

For what it's worth, I like your guitar work and melodic style, and I'd say you were in with a shot...BUT there are lots of talented performers around chasing a finite number of bookings, and that's something you need to weigh up. The very best of luck to you, anyway- I'd be glad to listen again.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: kendall
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 07:35 AM

I think you are very good.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: redsnapper
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 08:58 AM

Had a listen and liked your stuff a lot. I would say you definitely have the potential to be a "professional" although in the "folk" world this may not add up to anything very lucrative.

Good luck!

RS

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 09:16 AM

Ought to add, BTW, that if you're in the business of promoting your music on public forums like this; if you stick around any length of time you will almost certainly have your efforts trashed by some of our resident Neanderthals. For me, that's something anybody who puts themselves forward leaves themselves open to, but just saying, make sure you keep a thick skin about you and, if it happens, keep your temper. MOST folk here are supportive and open to new music, but there'll always be a few idiots out to foul up the atmosphere for the rest of us. As the saying goes, those that can, do...etc.

Credit to you for having the balls to put yourself out there, anyway.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 09:23 AM

It is entirely up to you, whether you can "be" "a professional." Find a few whose track record is good, and learn how they conducted themselves along the learning curve, and what it is that makes them "professional." Ask someone in your local area to mentor you, or go where there are enough pro performers that you can find a mentor.

The music is "merely" part of the product. To do this you ned to know what the rest of the product is, how to deliver it, and how to be a business person managing it all. In the end, it's more about how you handle yourself in the music envorinment-- on stage and off stage-- that will make the difference. In the long run, it's less about the ability to play and sing well.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: John Hardly
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 09:23 AM

If by "professional" you mean "play for money", then, yes, I suppose. Probably not as a sole means of income, but you could find a few restaurant/bars that might pay you a couple of bucks a week to play.

Just off of the top of my head I can think of five guys who play and sing at least as well as you, but have no delusions of being "professionsl".

The trouble with being a "Mr. Tanner" is that for every one person honest enough to save you the potential embarrasment, you can find 10 people who will tell you what you want to hear.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 09:37 AM

> if you stick around any length of time you will almost certainly have your efforts trashed by some of our resident Neanderthals

Getting trashed in an internet thing, not a Mudcat thing. It can and does happen anywhere that an artist grants open (and often anonymous) access. Haven't you seen some of the other forums out there? People get trashed, quite unjustly, on YouTube too.

Anyway, Moment, I certainly think you're good enough to be a professional - but as has already been pointed out, being good enough isn't the whole issue. If by "a career" you mean earning your full, entire living from performing, you will need to be prepared to scuffle with a very low income but the same bills & expenses as everyone else has; and living away from home a lot of the time (which takes its toll on families & relationships) because you do have to go where the work is - costly in time as well as money. It may be a different ball game if you live with someone whose salary helps keep things afloat and who doesn't mind the continual absences.

Also there's the famously unfair dichotomy between talent and success: having one doesn't necessarily mean the other follows. But as far as talent goes, yes. You've got a particularly nice touch with song lyrics - words that "sing" well and flow like natural speech but which pack a punch - and also a lovely guitar style. Best of luck to you.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 09:56 AM

Well, I did say "internet forums like this", not mudcat specifically; but no, of course getting trashed etc. is universal on any public forum and mudcat is probably more supportive than most. I'm happy to clarify that point.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 10:03 AM

I would say you have talent. But let me give you a caution. There are a ton of folks out there with talent. The difference is desire. I know of one guy, great singer, but if he couldn't get his validation from someone telling him he was good, he didn't have the self confidence to push ahead. I think it is imperative for you to lock yourself into a room, have an honest conversation with you, and figure out if you really believe you are good enough. Then you need to have the next conversation with you, which is to figure out if you believe in your music and talent enough to get on the long road. There is a great example right here at the Mudcat. That is Jed Marum. I remember when he would talk about giving up a great job with benefits in the airline industry, to become a pro. There were times, extended times, where he had a helluva time just making ends meet. He was under incredible pressure to give it up and go back to the corporate world. But he believed in his music, found ways to keep going, and today he is making a respectable living, and doing better all the time. He believed, and he perservered in the face of daunting pressure. If you are not willing to do that, then stick with being a party player and part timer. It is not a bad way to go. But if you want to be a pro, then you need to be able to commit in the face of daunting odds.

I wish you well, and hope you chase the dream.

Mick

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 10:06 AM

There's no-one stopping you.
If you can get gigs and earn enough to live on, you're professional!
You'll never know 'til you try.

I've made a living, paid a mortgage and raised children for about 11 years now but I wouldn't say that I was good - just average.

Are you any good? That's a totally different question.
There are a lot of really great singers doing it part-time.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: gnu
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 10:09 AM

Darn good.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 10:19 AM

CJR: Go for it.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 10:20 AM

Mick Bracken is more than good, that's for sure.

The other Mick

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 10:42 AM

I like your stuff. One of my best friends was a person who tried most of his life but could never cut free of the day job despite immense talent. However he made a good suplimentary income at it. You don't say if you perform in public part time, but if not do so. If you already do and want to go full time Big Mick has good advice. If it's a compelling dream you will probably always regret not giving it a shot but only you can decide. Best of luck!

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 10:51 AM

yep, Sandy, this is it. I hope you understand that I am not trying to discourage you, but to simply put a point on this that you need to consider. I think it is important, as Mick Bracken points out, for you to understand what you mean by "professional". If what you mean is that this is your main career and main source of income, that is one thing. If by "professional" you simply mean getting paid for performing, that is another. It is clear you are talented enough to perform for a fee, and do fine. It is clear that you are talented enough to give folks an enjoyable performance. But the drive to take the music to different places is another.

Mick

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Henrik W.
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 10:57 AM

I remember Ian McCalman (of The McCalmans) giving this advice to young hopeful musicians:

"The time to go professional is when you play so many gigs that you have to give up your daytime job."

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 10:58 AM

dunno. the line about mutual masturbation won't go down well in the folk world.

As Woody Allen said, do you mind - you're talking about my hobby.

Also I think quite a lot of folkies like looking at the pretty lady with the long black hair. Big tits seem to go well also.

Still - its earnest and nicely presented and it tells a story. It has a certain atmosphere to it. You never know - it could be you!

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 11:03 AM

Mick you're too kind.

Mick!

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 11:04 AM

I remember Ian McCalman (of The McCalmans) giving this advice to young hopeful musicians:

"The time to go professional is when you play so many gigs that you have to give up your daytime job."

Or when you start collecting Social Security - or the equivalent in your country. That may be the coward's way out, but it makes sense at my age.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Brakn
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 11:12 AM

Also one thing to be remembered is that going full time can be stressful and precarius.

There's no holiday pay and there's no sick pay.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 11:15 AM

And don't underestimate the amount of time you'll need to spend hustling - sending out endless PR shots, phone calls, chasing gigs, doing all the boring hassle-work (not to mention a lot of running around) which is a million miles away from what your artistic self longs to do. But it's a very competitive world out there, and you'll have to use up a lot of your energy and resources just selling yourself. It can feel sort of demeaning sometimes, too, if someone has the power to grant something that you and 50/500/5000 others want, e.g. one gig. Artists are often put in the position of having to please and be nice to people they don't respect, just for the sake of getting something from them (without which, no career). This is mentally unhealthy and doesn't do wonders for your self-image, so you need a strong one before you start out.

[A moment later] I've just re-read this in the edit box. Can you believe instead of PR-shots I originally typed "PR-snots". Typos speak Freudian volumes sometimes...

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 11:23 AM

****ROARING WITH LAUGHTER****

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 11:27 AM

And don't underestimate the amount of time you'll need to spend hustling - sending out endless PR shots, phone calls, chasing gigs, doing all the boring hassle-work (not to mention a lot of running around) which is a million miles away from what your artistic self longs to do. But it's a very competitive world out there, and you'll have to use up a lot of your energy and resources just selling yourself.

But that's what you have a gurrll in the trio for!!

(Don't anyone let my wife see this...)

Peter

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 11:51 AM

Your voice and guitar style both have what it takes - no problem there. The other ingredients are what make the package truly marketable - personality, stage craft, timing, eye-balling the audience etc.. plus the determination and desire to put up with all the crap that goes with the job, and still come smiling through.

Good luck mate - let us know how you get on

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Gene Burton
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 12:17 PM

"Artists are often put in the position of having to please and be nice to people they don't respect, just for the sake of getting something from them (without which, no career)."

Quite! This is probably the biggest single reason why I don't actively pursue full time pro (as opposed to semi-pro) status. If you have to spend too long holding your nose, it can start to bleed...

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Banjiman
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 12:28 PM

"Artists are often put in the position of having to please and be nice to people they don't respect, just for the sake of getting something from them (without which, no career)."

So it's just like any other job then!

Paul

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: GUEST,rock chick
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 12:39 PM

Great stuff, It really good to hear someone with talent, rather than those who think they have talent BUT dont. Keep at it.

rc

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 01:08 PM

If you try and fail,It should not be a reason for giving up music,you may fail not because you are untalented,but for many other reasons.
I havent listened to your music,so my advice would be the same as I would give to anyone else.
try and see how it goes,also try and develop other sidelines,perhaps playing guitar in a ceilidh band,or teaching your instrument,so that you heve some other regular income,that is compatible with your solo gigs.
when I first turned professional in 1976 ,I played regularly in ceilidh bands,if I had no gigs for a week, I had band gigs.
another line to think about is calling for dancing,or even dealing in musical instruments,to supplement lean times,while your solo career is getting established.
becoming an established artist always takes time.
If you live in England Geographical location is important,it is much more difficult living in Cornwall,or Caithness,than Nottingham.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: themoment
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:04 PM

Well thank you for the comments.....certainly given me things to think about.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj84BIzfMpQ

                                  Love Col

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Bee
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:17 PM

Artists in any field have to take a great leap of faith in the pursuit of plying their trade for a living.

It's the great failure in my life that I didn't leap when I should have, out of fear. I can't say I'm worse off for it, and there's still a little time to be more than a part timer, but the window of opportunity is narrowing fast.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 03:43 PM

Colin,

the short answer is of course "yes, you could". I am sure you realise yourself that you start with a number of handicaps: Unknown, older than 30 (and then some, eh? :-)), singer-songwriter (when everyone is into covers, caraoke and tribute acts), and worse than that, your lyrics show that you have a conscience and you care (when it is Lurve that sells and not social issues).

Against that you are armed only with talent, decent guitar playing, an ear for a good chord change, a very nice turn of phrase and magnetically honest delivery. The odds will be stacked against you all the way. How much of a professional you'll become will depend on how many corners you are prepared to cut, how many soul-destroying gigs you are prepared to take on for the sake of the daily bread, and of course on the height of your expectations and living standards, certainly in the short term.

But all of the above are not the point. I spent most of "Norah Jones Blues" peering through your glasses (and mine) and into your eyes. I think I saw something there that I recognised. If I am right therefore, the real question is:

Can you afford not to try? Before it's too late?

Always willing to chat, if you want. Google me and you can email me from my website. My heart goes out to you.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 04:03 PM

In her late teens, my daughter had ideas of becoming an actress. She didn't succeed not because she lacked talent but because she didn't want it enough and was not prepared to go through the slog that would take her there.

So my question is do you want to succeed enough? I am sure being older than she was then, you have the life experience to know what you will have to do, but do you want to do it enough?

As an aside, my daughter now teaches adults with special needs, is good at it and enjoys it and I am sure her degree in drama has proved valuable in what she eventually did.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 05:29 PM

Why? It's much more FUN as an amature.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Feb 08 - 08:33 PM

well the reasons for going pro are:-

1) you get sharper as a performer - more depends on it
2) you get the best equipment - you can't afford not to
3) you are no longer in that back seat with Karl Malden - I coulda bin a contender. You find out whether you could or you couldn't. One of the great mysteries of your life solved.
4) you start paying attention to what works - rather than bullshit about is real folk music/art or whatever your hangup about music is
5) because of this last one, you get an insight into the lives and works of the great artists which is totally denied the civilians. You get to understand the calls they make, the basic shrewdness of most pro musicians.
6) at meetings of musicians (infrequent as it tends to be a solitary occupation) you have war stories to tell. stand amazed as the greats have even gorier tales than you have!


There are probably more, but its half past one a.m.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 12:14 AM

To go follow a little bit different train of thought--what does the
question, "Could I make a career of my music?" mean? Do you mean as a composer/songwriter? Do you mean as a recording artist? Do you mean as a performer?

And, of course, what do you mean by a career? Do you simply want to earn money from what you do? Do you want to support yourself(and family, if any), exclusive of any other work or income? You you want to achieve what would regarded as success in the music/entertainment industry?

The answers will vary based on how you choose to define the question. The real truth though, is that the answer to this question will not come from any of us--it will come from you--

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: themoment
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 02:21 AM

I guess my conundrum has always been whether it's right to sell ideas about honesty and change so maybe I should just get in my little corner and fade away quietly eh?
It's hard not to want something materially more comfortable out of life but most of the world is in the same boat. Thanks for the time, all who gave it.
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVRYUh9yWUU
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhuV5uKKx5I

I mean with contradictions like these two songs what can I do...I'm too old and ugly for the "romantic" performance and too left of centre for the mainstream audience. Come to that, I'm too Buddhistic for the lefties.....help!

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Melissa
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 02:29 AM

Honesty and Change seem like noble enough ideas to sell.

If you want to try it, why not? You'll get scuffed, bruised and dented..and may end up with something you want. Or, you may end up with the simple satisfaction of knowing for certain that it wasn't what you wanted after all.
If you give it a shot, you won't have to spend the rest of your life cranky about letting the possibility slide past.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 03:11 AM

Actually, WLD, the best instruments are usually owned by computer programmers or venture capitalists who sing a bit on the side. A fortune to us is chump change to them.

And "what works" is the philosophy that gave us Take That and Girls Aloud and (shudder) Atomic Kitten and the Sugarbabes and, even worse, the Pussycat Dolls.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 03:53 AM

I could not afford decent equipment until I stopped doing it full time. On the other hand, I will freely admit that I have never met the musician, who was so rich, that he could afford to use cheap equipment. I would also recommend a decent bus, fitted out to your own needs, which you can comfortably sleep in. You will not want to sleep in it every night, or even most nights. However, if you are living in Sussex and your Tuesday night gig is in Darlington and your Thursday night gig is in Barrow in Furness, you will be surprised how much money Wednesday is going to burn up.
As a singer songwriter, you will not be interesting for managers, agents etc until you reach a level at which your fees are so high, that their percentage is also a considerable sum. In practice, most of the work of staying in business as a musician is desk work. That means phone calls, faxes, e-mails and visits. If you can make appointments to see people do. Make sure that they play your demo in front of you. Then you have over a fifty per cent chance of getting a gig. Most places that you leave a demo or send a demo to will forget all about it. Before you waste your money on postage and packaging, it is usually best to have some proof of interest. For instance, I will not send a demo to anyone who does not reply to an e-mail.
What you can probably do is to carve out a small niche for yourself by building up a base of gigs where people come out especially to see you. Then you won't have to play "Take Me Home Country Roads" at every gig and you will sell more of your merchandise.
Making good recordings is cheaper than it has ever been, so you do not need to put yourself into debt with a record company. In any event they would be unlikely to take you and even unlikelier to give you any real help if they did. I am going to risk sparking off a bun fight here by mentioning Show of Hands. However, their business model - essentially they do everything themselves and sell none of their rights - is probably a very good one for anybody, who does not expect to be filling concert halls within two years.
If you think I can offer any more useful help, please PM me.
Good luck with it.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 04:00 AM

And "what works" is the philosophy that gave us Take That and Girls Aloud and (shudder) Atomic Kitten and the Sugarbabes and, even worse, the Pussycat Dolls

And Martin Carthy and the Watersons and Bob Dylan and bruce Springsteen and Ralph McTell....you think these artists don't know what works. You think their work was arrived at in a moment of careless rapture.....

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 04:50 AM

For the first two I am pretty sure it was achieved as a matter of artistic judgment. Martin is critical now of his earlier phase of excessive guitar decoration, but it was highly regarded at the time and so "worked".

Dylan is a very good writer of polemic songs and the occasional good-time song - but possibly the worst performer I have ever seen.

Springsteen was trial and error - check out his early career. Mostly error unless you like bombast.

McTell - oh hell, you know I like folk songs, don't you!

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: alanabit
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 05:04 AM

WLD and Richard, the Pussycat Dolls and Atomic Kitten etc are really dancers rather than musicians. It's the old Fred Astaire/Gene Kelly concept of selling the records of competent singers by using dance routines. They have very little to do with the "music", which their record companies sell. They also make little money from the actual noise themselves. It's none of their business to interfere with that part of the package.
Our man here is in a completely different game. He is writing and playing his own music and trying to reap the rewards for it. I think it is possible that if he finds enough of the right places to play that he will succeed.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 05:27 AM

Oh, indeed he can succeed, Alan, otherwise I wouldn't encourage him. He will need to identify early on what "success" means for him, and focus, because he has a number of options. Success could be:

a) Becoming well-known as a performing songwriter (like KT Tunstall)
b) Ditto as a performer
c) Ditto as songwriter - where he only performs to "get the songs out", and attract "star names" to sing his songs
d)Getting his songs well known to a wide audience as quickly as possible, through the club circuit

Each of those avenues requires a different strategy.

Subject: RE: Do you think I could be a professional?
From: Melissa
Date: 23 Feb 08 - 05:34 AM

The 'publicity package' thread might be a good one for somebody Clicky Competent to link here?