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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 18 Jun 08 - 04:36 PM Re CCEs 'not for profit' status: While having a sort-out of old magazines and books I came across an article in Phoenix Magazine, Dec 6th 2002, by 'Goldhawk' under the general heading of 'Pillars of Society' which deals with, among other things, CCEs financial status. This is an extract: "Patricia Quinn et al viewed this a way for CCE to get on the arts funding gravy train to complement its income from the, which is supposed to be ring-fenced for promoting the Irish language. This year CCE got €500,000 from this source (Department of Gaeltacht) and, indeed, Ó Murchú has proved very effective at tapping the public purse and is a consistent recipient of Cultural Relations Committee funding for US events. Also, Brú Ború in Cashel -one of a number of Comhaltas centres around the country - managed to land no less than €1.5 million from Bord Fáilte to build an underground theatre. There was a further €650,000 from the Department of Arts last year for this project which was officially opened by Síle Dev........ Comhaltas regularly claims to have 400 branches even if some of these are very small indeed. Nevertheless, the organisation is a very successful one and although the accounts are not published, Goldhawk can reveal that there were accumulated profits of €1.5 million at the end of last year. "Wages, pension, travel and subsistence" amounted to €550,000 (including a top-up sum for pensions). The biggest single element here would be Ó Murchú's salary although the senator refused to elucidate Goldhawk on the amount he takes out of his organisation every year...... Ó Murchú's ability to use the Seanad to push the interests of CCE was never clearer than with the passage of the Copyright Bill in 1999 which was initially opposed by the senator despite the fact that the Government was pushing it through. In this case, he put Comhaltas before FF but in a most Machiavellian manner, managed to end up onside at the end of the day after tying up a very unusual deal with the Irish Music Rights Organisation (IMRO) whereby CCE was issued a blanket licence "to cover all official Comhaltas functions". The Letter of Agreement also stated that IMRO would fund CCE to the tune of €63,500 annually and also provided for an annual €32,000 subvention for the Brú Ború venue run by Ó Murchú's wife, Una. No other CCE centre was mentioned. In return, CCE agreed "to support IMRO's submission to the Department of Enterprise, Trade & Employment in relation to the proposed Copyright Bill". In other words, Ó Murchú did a U-turn on his stance on the Bill but only when he protected CCE from the clutches of IMRO. Clearly, other traditional music bodies - outsiders in his eyes - could fend for themselves." I also found a publication called 'Comhaltas 1968, which carried an article entitled 'A Library of Traditional Music'. The article states that CCE had just received a grant towards the establishment of such a library. Can anybody tell me if a library or archive exists, as if so, where they are housed? If there are such facilities, how are they indexed and how can they be accessed? In addition to all this, of course, are the collosal grants awarded to the organisation last year for capital projects. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 18 Jun 08 - 05:36 PM good post, Jim. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 18 Jun 08 - 07:31 PM Just to clarify my own position, I'm not really defending Comhaltas. It's just that each new development in the story, such as Labhras refusing mediation, is trumpeted on this list as fresh evidence of wrongdoing, when it actually proves nothing either way. And weird innuendoes are made about comhaltas's "not-for-profit" status involving what is really a question of budgets, not of profiteering. For the record, there is no legal or broadly-accepted distinction between a nonprofit organization and a not-for-profit one. In general, these are two terms for the same thing...some people prefer one term and some the other. It is perfectly acceptable and even desirable for a non-profit or not-for-profit to accumulate funds to carry over from year to year, thus technically operating at a profit. If they don't do this, they become extremely vulnerable at the turn of the fiscal year if a grant or other revenue stream falls through. One organization I used to work for had to lay everyone off and re-hire them two months later! Jim, getting millions of government euros doesn't constitute profit, nor is it "stretching" the not-for-profit distinction. If the organization spends that money to meet its goals, and even if it invests money to spend on its goals next year (thus operating at a profit for a given year), it generally doesn't break the rules. Nor is paying the staff of an organization a salary considered profit. The distinction (if anyone is interested) is that the money brought in by a not-for-profit organization cannot be distributed among shareholders, owners or officers. It is held by the corporation and must be spent in the advancement the corporation's goals. Staff members may earn set salaries, but they may not share in profits, as in a for-profit company. This allows an organization like Comhaltas to accumulate money for several years before starting a project like the Clasac centre. Once again, it is possible to make assumptions based on the name "not-for-profit," and try to make the perfectly routine operation of such an organization sound sinister. It's possible to make it sound like an organization is profiteering because it receives "millions" in grants. But the figures quoted above are really not a huge amount of money in the arts world, and they're small in overall government budgets. They seem big for trad arts, certainly, but there are organizations doing classical music with a far greater budget. As for Jim's suggestion that I didn't mention "music" enough in my last post, in fact what I spoke of were "arts," and I mentioned that this was about "arts" management and "arts" centres and "arts" organizations many times in my post. Although comhaltas's name mentions musicians, it is devoted not only to music but to dance and language arts as well. It is a classic arts organization, shares similar goals with other arts organizations, and is governed by the same rules that govern others. Those rules allow it to accumulate money for multi-year projects, pay staff, and top up pension plans without violating its not-for-profit status. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 19 Jun 08 - 01:53 AM "They seem big for trad arts, certainly, but there are organizations doing classical music with a far greater budget". What on earth are you trying to prove Nerd? - we are talking about traditional music - you know - the one that receives virtually not a penny in the UK. We are also talking about an organisation which has a hand permanently in the public purse, thanks to the position and influence of a leader who is happy to exploit that position to guarantee it remains there. It should be remembered that the figures quoted in the article are now 16 years old and will now much exceed that, thanks to 'The Action of The Tiger' - but none of us are privy to that information. We wouldn't be having this discussion if C.C.E. published its accounts, or is that another of your items 'not wanted on voyage? Perhaps you can tell us - are charities not required to keep books and publish accounts? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 19 Jun 08 - 03:39 PM Jim, I'll just drop this angle after this post, as I sense you are misunderstanding me. You keep making insinuations, and I keep trying to rein them in, pointing out that there isn't really any evidence of anything illegal. I just wish you'd stop because insinuating financial wrongdoing on this list isn't productive and only fans the flames. Also, in the end, we can bloviate endlessly here about whether comhaltas has broken any rules or laws. It won't change either the facts of the case or the outcome. As to your questions, "are charities [in Ireland] not required to keep books and publish accounts," I don't know. Do you? If you do, why not tell us which laws you think they are breaking, instead of dealing in innuendos? I do know the laws in the US. Here, if they got this much money, they would be required to commission an audit and submit the report to the Federal Government. (Additional state requirements depend on the individual State.) In the US, there is also a public disclosure requirement, but the law only requires that the information be available on a paper form called a Form 990 during business hours to anyone who turns up at the head office. The same may well be true in Ireland, in which case you'd have to go to the head office to get this information. When I said that many other arts organizations outside the trad arts realm have a larger budget, I wasn't trying to change the subject. I was pointing out that your insinuation that a large budget must mean that Comhaltas is violating its not-for-profit status is pretty nonsensical, because other non-profits have way more money and aren't in violation of any laws. Finally, the issue you describe very well here: "It is also an organisation which has a hand permanently in the public purse, thanks to the position and influence of a leader who is happy to exploit that position to guarantee it remains there..." is one that will be familiar to many who have worked in such organizations. Labhras's personality is a two-edged sword, because, make no mistake, that is often exactly the type of personality you NEED running such an organization to ensure it gets its share of funding. It cannot have been a bad thing for Irish traditional music to have had such a driving force running comhaltas. His hand in the public purse, for the most part, has helped the music thrive. Think of it this way: on the one hand you lament that in the UK traditional music gets no funding. On the other you lambaste Labhras for muscling up to the public purse in Ireland and wresting away money for traditional music. There is a bit of a disconnect here, in the sense that if there were a Labhras-like figure in the UK, the funding situation for traditional music might be better. Sadly, the other side of Labhras's personality type is that when it comes in conflict with others in the organization, the results can be ugly, as in this case. So we can agree on the unpleasant aspects of his character. But that's often the package: a strong leader who will succeed externally in raising the profile of their chosen art form, also has a hard time playing well with others within his own organization. (Cecil Sharp was a classic example of this as well.) This pattern is not a coincidence; it's a common personality type. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 20 Jun 08 - 03:28 PM "there isn't really any evidence of anything illegal." Neither is there evidence to the contrary - CCE is such a closed shop that even Labhras' closest collegues have been unable to find out how much he or his wife earns (see Breandán's earlier posting) - I don't know any politicians with that privilege. I asked if CCE have a library - and received no reply. If they have, where is it housed and what access is there to it; if they haven't - did they return the grant they received to establish one? It is inconceivable that a music organisation can exist for over half a century without either a library or sound archive, yet I have been unable to discover the existence of either. "Are charities [in Ireland] not required to keep books and publish accounts," I don't know - they certainly are in the UK. If they aren't in Ireland, how else are we to know that the large sums of public money aren't being misused or misappropriated? "Labhras's personality is a two-edged sword," I am not interested in Labhras's personality (though I was interested to note that you appear to be familiar with it). I am interested in the fact that he appears to be answerable to no-one. "His hand in the public purse, for the most part, has helped the music thrive." That is not the case. Twenty odd years ago Irish music could have disappeared without the existence of CCE. Now it is surviving very well without - some would say, in spite of it. Don't take my word for it - read Labhras's Oireachtais report on Irish music, which was even unacceptable to his political collegues and had to be shelved. I'll happily supply you with some of the many protests that greeted its publication. Beandán Breathnach put it beautifully when he described Comhaltas as "an organisation with a great future behind it". "if there were a Labhras-like figure in the UK, the funding situation for traditional music might be better." This appears to assume that the money received is being spent wisely - while some of us believe it isn't - the extreme secrecy surrounding CCEs finances make it impossible to discover whether our suspicions are correct or not. The point of this thread is that Labhras is answerable to nobody, CCE membership, the taxpayer, his own committee. He is a political appointee for life, should wish to be. The situation appears to exist that if he wakes up tomorrow morning, spills his coffee, burns his toast and stubs his toe - he can expel a couple of branches to make himself feel better. The sad thing is that many rank and file members will support his doing so. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Nerd Date: 20 Jun 08 - 06:42 PM As I said, I will drop this now. Rant away, Jim! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Observer Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:23 PM Thanks Nerd for your rational posts which went a long way to shedding some light on this interminable and tiresome debate. I think Jim showed his true colours with his statement in an earlier post "we are talking about traditional music - you know - the one that receives virtually not a penny in the UK." - maybe he'd prefer we return to the old days of "give Paddy a pint and he'll play all night" where the Irish Arts Council paid out 0.9% of their funds to traditional music and the other 99.1% to the so called higher arts. Fair play to Comhaltas and Labhrás if they can get funds for new and improved traditional arts centres and to hell with the begrudgers! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 20 Jun 08 - 08:45 PM Many people who read this thread and many thousands more who dont, work very hard to promote Irish Traditional Music and song. Many organise and run small festivals, both within and outside of the Comhaltas organisation. Organisers can apply for funding from various organisations, Local Authority Arts department, The Arts Council, Fáilte Ireland, etc. When they apply, or enquire about these grants they will be informed of the criteria by which they will be eligible. In most cases the rules and requirements will be freely available and accessable. They will make an application, outlining in detail the plans for the event, budget, organisers, and many other details. Does this sound familiar so far?? If the application is successful, you will be informed of how the grant will be paid, ie half before and the remainder after the event, ON PRODUCTION OF FULL ACCOUNTS AND A DETAILED REPORT. The funding bodies publish lists of successfull applicants All very hard work you'll agree, but fair - very fair. You make your pitch and if it is deserving and if the money is there you will get grant aid. Among its other duties, the newly established Meitheal regional organisations are tasked with distributing C.C.E. within the organisation. Is the Meitheal organisation elected by the members? No. Do they publish guidelines for who can apply? No. Do they publish the application criteria? No. Is there an application form? No. How is the grant paid out and when? Well we dont know. Do Metheal insist on a detailed set of income and expenditure accounts? Dont know? Do C.C.E. publish a list of successfull applicants? No. See what i'm getting to? There is no accountability. The money is a personal slush fund to be distributed as the old guard desires. Any branch who don't toe the line or dare to criticise the Old Guard, will simply be ignored re funding. Oh and dont forget to invite the old guard to the launch banquet also or else!! And remember folks this is YOUR money. Your hard earned taxes. Before a hundred of you jump down my throat, I am not saying that the branches or the event organisers don't deserve their funds. I am saying that if the systems, checks and balances are not there then it will be corrupt. It has to be by human nature. I hope that someone reading this will bring this situation to the attention of the relevant government department, or perhaps someone from Comhaltas HQ can enlighten us further |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jun 08 - 04:02 AM Nameless Observer "give Paddy a pint and he'll play all night" No, I do not want to return anywhere; I want to see that what is happening now to Irish music will continue to happen, and the only way to ensure that is even-handedness and openness as far as national funding is concerned. Ireland now has a National Music Archive which is the envy of the world; the Irish Folklore Department houses one of the finest collections of music and song in Europe, if not the world; regional archives and music centres are beginning to appear; music and singing schools and festivals are springing up like mushrooms. Arguably the most influential event in the teaching of Irish music, The Willie Clancy Summer School (the formation of which Labhras turned down the invitation to participate in because the organisers refused to include competitions) is celebrating its 37th year next month. All this, and much more is happening without Comhaltas, yet they remain the recipient of the largest (by far) amount of public money and they continue to hold the support of the politicians. When Minister Éamon O'Quiv promised financial support to The Michael Coleman Centre in Sligo, then had a change of heart and insisted that the money be handed to CCE, Labhras had no hesitation in taking over the centre. His report to Oireachtais, his opposition to the Arts Council policy which followed and the dirty deal with IMRO was totally about money and the control of public funding. Sligo and Clontarf appears to have been about the acquisition of property. The question of the ownership of Bru Boru has yet to hit the fan. In all this Comhaltas still continues to play an invaluable role; its real strength and contribution to Irish music lies, and has always lain with its branches and in the work of its teachers, yet it is precisely these people who are being treated with contempt by the leadership. Ireland appears to be heading for an economic downturn. If this is the case, we know from experience that in such circumstances it is always the arts that are first to suffer, and the traditional arts will be invariable in the front line of any cuts. I understand from a friend on this thread that this is already beginning to happen and that her own work is being curtailed by the developing situation. If we have anything less than even-handedness, all the work done by the people who set up ITMA, WCSS, The Coleman, Padraig Okeefe, Seamus Ennis Centres..... etc, will have been undone - that will guarantee us a return to the Dark Ages of Irish Music. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Gulliver Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:05 PM Jim, that post has me confused. First you mention things like the Traditional Music Archive, Folklore Department, etc (all of which cost money to set up and run). Then you say that CCE "remain the recipient of the largest (by far) amount of public money". Didn't the recent renovation of the Cork School of Music cost over €60 million? And the Arts Council must be getting around €100 million per year from the Department of Arts, Heritage and Sport. And isn't the Arts Council (which in their 2004 Report on the Traditional Arts went against the wishes of the CCE) responsible for doling out that money to the many applicants around the country, including to the CCE? In that same report the Arts Council admitted that they donated €37,000 to the Willy Clancy school, but nothing to the much larger Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann. Also, around that time, about 17 branches of CCE applied to the Arts Council for grants, and only 4 were granted (for a total of less than €7,000!). Then you say you want the traditional arts to be funded and successful, and yet you seem to condemn Labhrás and CCE for working their butts off to do just that. Don |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 21 Jun 08 - 12:54 PM Fair comment Gulliver. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,PJ Date: 21 Jun 08 - 01:47 PM "Labhrás and CCE for working their butts off" ? And the people of Clontarf didn't? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST Date: 21 Jun 08 - 01:50 PM Don, Long term - CCE is the recipient of largest grant money for Traditional music - have a look at the millions that were awarded to them last year for capital projects. Nobody objects to them getting as much money as they need, but not at the expense of other activities. I think you will find that O'Murchu's report is aimed at getting it at the cost of other organisations - if you haven't, please read it, and will happily send you the full article from Phoenix. The report was followed up by loud and long protests by O'Murch at the Arts Council Initiative 2005-2008; Mrs Labhras is a board member. If you haven't read CCEs protests against the Initiative - again, please do - much of them appeared in the pages of Treor. Of course CCE should get a slice of the cake; but they appear to want the whole bakery! The report was shelved because of the protests at O'Murchú's failure to include activities other than CCE's. If the Irish economy does take a swan-dive and money for the arts is cut, the survival of all other projects will depend totally on the co-operation of all interested bodies. Comhaltas is notorious for refusing to work with anybody who won't allow them to call the tune. Given the influence that O'Murchú has politically, this does not auger well for Traditional music. Cap'n You're beginning to sound like a nodding dog (if a nodding dog can sound) - have you no ideas of your own? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 21 Jun 08 - 03:53 PM Can I clear something up before this polarises into a slanging match. My first introduction to Irish music was hearing Felix Doran play at a Comhaltas concert in Manchester sometime in the mid-sixties - I was hooked from then on. When we started collecting her in Clare, the first musicians we met and recorded were not only CCE members, but founder members; Junior Crehan, Sean Reid, J.C. Talty... all neighbours and friends of Willie Clancy (also a key figure in CCE), who we never got to meet. Some of our the musicians we count(ed) among our oldest friends were members; without their friendship and generosity we would never have recorded the music and information that we did. Any antipathy I feel towards Comhaltas is reserved exclusively for the leadership and its behaviour towards its rank-and-file members and other people working in the field of traditional music. I believe both have been served badly by Monkstown and the present situation at Clontarf is symptomatic of the disregard in which they are held. Already this discussion is beginning to appear to be a for-against one, which is not how I feel about the organisation in general. While I have some reservations about how CCE works, which I have aired on this forum in the past, they in no way reduce the respect I have for the many members who I know and count as my friends. If this discussion is going to expand beyond the 'Clontarf' issue, I would much rather it did so off-line where I will be more than happy to air my views, supply any information I have and receive any anybody might care to give me. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Cluain Tarbh Date: 29 Jun 08 - 08:29 AM A word of thanks! Once again we got marvellous support from the Traditional Music Community - artist and punter alike - at our fundraiser in the Cobblestone on June 12th last. A packed house was treated to a veritable feast of music and song. Thanks so much to everybody for coming out to support us once again! Especially Thanks to all the artists who gave so generously of their time and talent. * Mick (Accordion) O Connor and Brian Kelly * Máire Breathnach * Niamh Parsons and Siobhan Moore * Alan Doherty and Mick Broderick * Pat Good and Liam kennedy * Mary Nugent and Frank Walsh * Jesse Smith and John Blake Thanks to our MC on the night - Aoife Mullen and to Derek Duff on sound. Thanks also to Anne, Rosie and Julie who put so much work into organising the event. Lastly thanks to the Cobblestone for hosting the night. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:47 AM The very best of luck to all participants in the Leinster Fleadh this weekend (, particularly those from the Reel Clontarf. It doesn't matter who's name is on the door of the practise room, or if you are not listed as part of a Clontarf group/band on the programme. You are all the greatest! Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Guest - Micheál Date: 11 Jul 08 - 06:59 PM When is the dissolution of the Clontarf branch going to be lifted? Everything has gone very quiet lately.... Does that mean that talks are going on to lift that undemocratic, unfair and unwarranted dissolution? Hopefully so as traditional music, in Dublin and nationally, need a fantastic branch like Clontarf. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 12 Jul 08 - 07:26 PM Well done to all the musicians who played in the junior competitions today in the Leinster fleadh esp the children from the Clontarf Branch, the were called 'DN' in the programme could someone from HQ please explain this. Delighted to see this bureaucracy hasn't interfered with the standard of music being played at grassroots level. There were quite a number of clontarf [DN] winners today.They are to be applauded and encouraged. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 14 Jul 08 - 04:21 AM Very sound performance from all Clontarf musicians. I strongly object to the Fleadh organisers refusing to allow our branch have a name. Apparently we are no longer allowed use the name Cluain Tarbh in any shape or form. I find this strategy most insulting and devisive, "divide and conquer" is probably the thinking behind it. Our individual musicians, duets, trios etc are all entered without a club name, but under their home addresses. Our ceili bands and grupai ceoil are listed as Ceili Band, or Groupa Ceoil DN (for Dublin North, I think). Although it doesn't stop our success, the "no name" policy of cce hq manages to mask and cover up our club. We are still 400 people, still united, still great musicians, still well meaning and decent people. Stop treating us like crap Labhras. We are not going away. Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 14 Jul 08 - 09:58 AM No longer allowed to use the name of the district where you are based, in any way, shape or form? Even if you're a private, independent organisation? Surely that can be legally challenged. And if you do call yourself "Clontarf" something (whether in Irish or English) what are they going to do about it? Sue you? Get a lawyer's opinion. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 15 Jul 08 - 04:56 AM Thanks Bonnie, that sounds like a good plan. will definitely check it out. Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: oggie Date: 15 Jul 08 - 05:36 AM Except for Tax purposes there is currently no formal Charity registration in Ireland and nothing like the regulation that occurs in England. Plans to change this went out to consultation in 2006 but as of now there has been no new legislation. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 21 Aug 08 - 06:52 AM The newly formed branch of Comhaltas are starting classes in the Clasac building in September. Their advertisements in the all ireland fleadh programme and in the Northside News look very optimistic. Just to let anyone reading this know, the REEL CLONTARF (now known as Ceoltoiri Cluain Tarbh) are continuing our lessons and our club as normal, enrolment in Marino College on 6th September 9 - 11.30 a.m. We will have the same teachers, same pupils, same bands and groups, same socials, trips, activities, competitions and most importantly, the same democratically elected committee. As a member of the club and parent of children in the club, I'd like to sincerely thank our committee for persevering through the difficult times of the dissolution and through all the slings and arrows since March. To our officers, Maurice, Diarmaid and Cormac, and to the whole committee, and a special thanks to Ms Motivator, Anne Conway - you have played a blinder, thank you all. Best of luck to all our musicians at the Tullamore Fleadh. See you all back in action on the 6th September Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 21 Aug 08 - 10:46 AM Best of luck indeed to the Reel Clontarf branch and their competitors at Fleadh Cheoil na hÉireann in Tullamore. I cannot understand how Comhaltas and the so called "Official Branch" would have the nect to start classes in Clasach I do notice that Cluain Tarbh Comhaltas is listed as a location on the Comhaltas website and that you are giving classes in Marino College |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:10 PM Heartning to see so many young musicians from the dissolved clontarf branch of cce attend the scoil éigse and represent Leinster in the All Ireland competitions.Nice to have them announced in the grupa ceol as 'Clontarf'and not the ridiculous Dn3! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Effsee Date: 26 Aug 08 - 10:25 PM "ridiculous Dn3! "...erm, please explain? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 27 Aug 08 - 08:04 PM Any participants in this years fleadh cheoil na hEireann from the dissolved clontarf branch of cce,either solo musicians,duets,trios,ceili bands or grúpaí ceoil were not entered in the official programme as coming from clontarf but from 'Dn3 Áth Cliath'.What was even more ridiculous was that this is what was read out to introduce the competitors. However one of the officials did identify the music group as being from Clontarf Dublin,much to the ammusement of the people in the audience from Dublin. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Effsee Date: 27 Aug 08 - 10:25 PM Thanks for that Guest, but can you explain what 'Dn3 Áth Cliath' means for us monoglots please? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Rowan Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:06 AM Not being a member but having read all the posts I think I have gained an understanding of the publicly-available info. From a lifetime of involvement (at all levels) with voluntary organisations it seems all too familiar. From an Oz perspective (which means I'm ignorant of specifically Irish legislative details that might nullify my comments) it seems the following could be explored. 1 Getting the locals of Clontarf (meaning Reel Clontarf, now known as Ceoltoiri Cluain Tarbh) back into a situation where they have some proportionate management of the facility they helped establish seems to be a local priority. Surely the Dublin City Councillors (the Local Government controlling the land on which the CLASAC is sited) can be lobbied/pressured/convinced politically into changing the details of "to whom" it is leased, so that the locals can be the major partners in running it. From the info above it seems the CCT have a lot of people with a lot of abilities who could cover a major part of its future activities; if Monkton/Comhaltas/HQ were "needed" to run particular aspects they could be invited to be (probably 'minority') members of the Board of Management, with Clontarf (CCT) members a similar minority and the Dublin CC administration represented with "balance of power" numbers. From the posts above I gather that the Senator (how come an elected parliamentary represented can have a paid outside job, let alone avoid accusations of "conflict of interest"? -sorry, I'm living in Oz) has a reputation and history of refusing CCE participation in entities it can't control. If he won't come to the party I'm sure other cultural institutions would be lining up to join in and provide the locals with the required expertise and functions. 2 Getting CCE to be more "accountable" in the way many have recommended. I'm aware that many institutions we think of as "public" are in fact private (and, indeed, multinational) corporations; the ICRC has already been mentioned but Greenpeace is another example of the genre. Several prongs need to be employed, probably at the same time. 2a Political pressure could be applied to have the Parliament (Dail?) legislate that institutions that are not part of govt but are recipients of govt funds conform to a series of model "rules". It might be a stretch to insist (of a "private" organisation) that its constitution meets the requirements of a minimal model, but that has been applied to similar organisations in most states in Oz for the last quarter century. Such "rules" could, however, require an organisation to publish (or make available to all members, as well as the govt) its Annual Accounts, AGM Minutes, procedures and records of Equity, EEO, Grievance Mediation, Disciplinary rules, activities and determinations. 2b Changing the particular representation of the grass-roots membership when there are four layers of I hope these suggestions are useful. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Aug 08 - 11:53 AM Indeed they were; thanks Rowan - always said we should never have got rid of the Colonies. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:08 PM Effsee, Dn3 was conjured up by whoever compiled the Dublin fleadh programme in order to not give members from clontarf any status, nobody seems to know what it stands for but it continued through the Leinster and All Ireland programmes. I suppose someone in CCE HQ does! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Effsee Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:41 PM OK. Thanks Guest, on pondering I thought it might be something like a postcode or similar. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Gulliver Date: 29 Aug 08 - 08:57 AM What Guest wrote about nobody knowing what Dn3 is, is nonsense. Dublin 3 is the Dublin postal code for Clontarf. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Barry Finn Date: 29 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM "Dn3" Couldn't they have done better than that? Please! There doesn't seem to be any talk or reasoning on the part of HQ to take any steps forward in mending bridges. After all it is there responsibility, "seeing as they took charge", to see that deep wounds get tended to & to make the healing process as fast & as easy as possible. Being a member from the Boston (US) branch, we don't hear much except what we read, maybe I'm way off but are there any steps at all in seeing that the "new" branch is brought into the fold with at least the respect of the "proded son"> Barry |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:07 PM Gulliver,'Dn.3,Áth Cliath'does not make sense or read well. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Effsee Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:22 PM Jaysus! How maMY Guests have we got here? I say again:- Thanks for that Guest, but can you explain what 'Dn3 Áth Cliath' means for us monoglots please? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Effsee Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:40 PM Oops,capslock frenzy! How many Guests? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Nerd Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:17 AM Effsee, It means "Dublin DN3," equivalent to (say) "New York, NY 10010" or "London NW5" |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Nerd Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:27 AM Map of Dublin Post Codes Clontarf is there in 3. According to Gulliver, this is what Dn3 means. What our GUEST is pointing out, I think, is that that isn't how one would actually address a letter--which would, among other things, go to D3, not Dn3. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Gulliver Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:19 PM Nerd, I did not say what Dn3 means. I said: "Dublin 3 is the Dublin postal code for Clontarf." |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Effsee Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:45 PM So what does "Áth Cliath'" mean? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Gulliver Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:07 PM Áth Cliath is the Irish name for Dublin. It's immaterial to me what names are used in the Fleadh--I've nothing to do with it--I simply tried to explain what "Guest" chose to ignore. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:35 AM If you live in Clontarf why could this address not be used? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 05 Sep 08 - 04:33 AM CLONTARF is the "brand" name by which our club is recognised. Only some of the members of the club actually live in Clontarf. However, everyone lives close by in the surrounding parishes. (I'm not aware that anyone in the newly formed CCE Cluain Tarbh actually lives in Clontarf). We are now "Ceoltóirí Chluain Tarbh" (Clontarf musicians). This is our new ID. The silly issue over not being "allowed" use our own name will only arise when it comes to competition season again next Spring. Unfortunately the newly formed branch are called by the name we've been recognised by for 40 years, Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Éireann Cluain Tarbh. They will obviously benefit from mistaken identity, as their adverts and the Comhaltas website will refer all enquiries for music lessons in our area to the newly formed branch, without any explanations. It FEELS LIKE identity theft. Ceoltóirí Chluain Tarbh, (the Reel Clontarf) have registration for the new term tomorrow (Saturday 6th September) between 9 and 11.30 in Marino VEC, Fairview as always. Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Nerd Date: 06 Sep 08 - 02:40 AM Gulliver, first you wrote: What Guest wrote about nobody knowing what Dn3 is, is nonsense. Dublin 3 is the Dublin postal code for Clontarf. Then you said you did NOT try to say what Dn3 means. This splits the hair mighty fine. Riddle me this, then: how was the fact that Dublin 3 is the postal code for Clontarf, relevant to the moniker "Dn3," if you're NOT trying to say that Dn3 means Dublin 3? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 06 Sep 08 - 04:37 AM Dn3 may be logical, but its meaning is not immediately obvious. In the rest of the Republic we don't use post codes at all, and I don't believe most people would see Dn3 and straightaway think, Ah...Dublin. Every letter I've ever seen or written to the capital, or address advertised, will just say "Dublin 1" (or whichever) - that is, when they bother with a number at all. The abbreviation is not in common usage even locally. If you include the district name (Clontarf, Ranelagh, Rathfarnham etc) you really don't need a number as well. (This is bound to change as the housing explodes outwards, but the old long-established areas of the city are well recognised.) If you write "Dn" even a lot of people here won't understand what you're talking about. We just call it Dublin. And though the Irish name for the city may be known here, probably a lot of visitors from Britain and America and elsewhere will not make the connection because there's no obvious association between the words (as there is with, say, Cork = Corcaigh). I think the point Eileen is trying to make is that head office is trying to do everything they can to obscure their identity. This is certainly an effective way to do it. "Dn3" is largely meaningless if you don't automatically think Post Code - which people here don't, because outside the capital we don't have them. And how on earth do you SAY it? That would lose everyone. Which I suspect is the whole point. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 06 Sep 08 - 05:24 AM Just for interest, I've looked through my address book - built up over the past 30 years and consisting of info given to me by the people who live there - and in every case (when they use a number at all) they have written the district name, then the city, then a number by itself.* Both "D" and "Dn" are redundant, and there is no use of it anywhere in the addresses people have given me. I also see that some names have the same postal number, which means that the names are more area-specific. If you Google "Clontarf Dublin 3" you get a million hits. Google Dn3 and you get Doncaster (UK). Google "Clontarf Dn3" even searching only the Irish pages and you get zilch. What's that tell you? * Donnybrook/Ballsbridge Dublin 4 Rathmines/Ranelagh/Terenure/Rathgar Dublin 6 Drumcondra Dublin 9 Ballyfermot Dublin 10 Baldoyle Dublin 13 Mulhuddart Dublin 15 Rathfarnham/Dundrum Dublin 16 Stepaside Dublin 18 |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Leadfingers Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM This certainly seems like a thread to keep out of, but I cant resist- |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Leadfingers Date: 06 Sep 08 - 12:55 PM 500 !!! |
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