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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Ceoltoiri Cluain Tarbh Date: 04 May 08 - 02:43 PM If you wish to express your disapproval of the dissolution of Cluain Tarbh CCE there is an online petition at http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/clontarf |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Ceoltoiri Cluain Tarbh Date: 04 May 08 - 03:12 PM I'll try this again so that the link will be activated: If you wish to express your disapproval of the dissolution of Cluain Tarbh CCE there is an online petition at http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/clontarf |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 04 May 08 - 03:33 PM Done. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 04 May 08 - 06:02 PM I have signed. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Barry Finn Date: 04 May 08 - 06:21 PM So have I Barry |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: magb Date: 04 May 08 - 06:49 PM me too. it's very quick & easy maggie |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,George Hendeson Date: 06 May 08 - 04:18 AM i have signed up too |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Tyrone Date: 06 May 08 - 08:35 AM Agree with Brendan. What a load of Rubbish!! These people should check their facts before placing such libellous comments on these blogs. The majority of the funding for this centre cane from Government coffers in grants given to Comhaltas and the branch raised a pittance in comparison. The sensationalist tabloid reporting of Joe Duffy is simply that! I would advise that you check your facts and stop brandishing these threads as truth. Remember there's two sides to every story. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,George Henderson Date: 06 May 08 - 10:05 AM guest, Tyrone. Not really worthy of a response but you obviously have not read the entire thread. You should note very clearly that Clontarf is not the only problem with this organiation. Have you read the report prepared in 1999? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Dublin2 Date: 06 May 08 - 10:12 AM Talking about getting facts right 'Tyrone' you're a bit far off the mark there. And if you actually knew the people involvesd you would know that it was the families directly affected that contacted Joe Duffy, not exactly 'sensationalist reporting' seeing that it is a talkshow. And who is brandishing these threads as truth? It is a discussion page and people are allowed to have their opinion, if anyone is brandishing the thread as truth it is Brendan as this is the only correspondance that CCE has or rather an employee has used to communicate with people apart from the 'woolly' answers we get in press releases. Read the article from the Irish Times from the weekend to see the wall that CCE has put up in relation to the whole affair. CCE silence only adds speculation, they have got themselves into a hole and they're making it worse by not communicating with the public in th hope that this all goes away. The funny thing about this whole mess is that Clontarf doesn't need Comhaltas. It is successful enough to survive without CCE, unlike most music promoted by CCE it is quality music, they also have the support of a huge amount of well known musicians, you only had to be at the gig in April to see that. In terms of trad music Clontarf would be far more restricted by CCE. Yes a lot of the funding came from the Government but it wasn't given to Comhaltas, it was petitioned for and received by the committee that was put in charge of getting the centre going. The committee did however have a representative of Comhaltas on it and this was to oversee affairs. That was the extent of their involvement up until last year when the whole affair of VAT and the bank loan came into play. And I wouldn't exactly call what was raised by the branch as pittance, maybe if you had gone to one of the MANY concerts that were held you would get an idea. But at least we can agree on one thing, checking facts. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Frug Date: 06 May 08 - 10:27 AM Guest Tyrone there has been a very good airing of both sides of the argument here, if you accept Brendan as some kind of rapporteur for Comhaltas. Notwithstanding this there appear to be a lot of unanswered questions which need addressing not least of all is why Comhaltas did not act sooner in the piece if things were going so badly wrong. Don't forget according to Brendans posts Comhaltas did have somebody involved with planning etc and surely they were in a position to report back on progress or problems. I'm not sure whether I subscribe to any conspiracy theory, but the initial lack of action by Comhaltas followed by their precipitate action in dissolving the branch does beg questions as to motive. There is inevitably a convoluted politic involved with community based initiatives and Government funds, made more difficult when you have some form of umbrella organisation. I know from experience of working within such a system myself the perils and pitfalls over definitions of responsibility and accountability and ability to act. Seems to me that the whole Comhaltas model needs a review to establish clearer pathways etc. Won't help the current crisis too much but may avert similar in the future. I feel only resolution to the Clontarf situation is an independent review of what happened, not necessarily to apportion blame but to identify way forward with key partners..........that includes both previous clontarf members and Comhaltas. Frank |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Dublin2 Date: 06 May 08 - 11:25 AM I agree... |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Guest North Dublin Date: 07 May 08 - 07:05 AM I have been reading comments on this site for quite a while and I must agree with Frug but what is Guest,Dublin 2 talking about getting facts right. He says that the funding was petitioned and received by the committee that was put in charge of getting the centre going. WERE NOT ALL OF THESE PEOPLE MEMBERS OF COMHALTAS WORKING ON BEHALF OF COMHALTAS ?. He says Clontarf dosent need Comhaltas but the Clontarf Branch would never have existed without Comhaltas. A lot of the Committee and members of Clontarf Comhaltas left smaller Branches around Dublin to join Clontarf Comhaltas and good look to them because their children were very successful when the competed in verious competitions and Fleadh's down the years. The Dublin Fleadh will be held this weekend and I am sure that the competitors who were members of Clontarf will do very well. I am also sure that they will be made very wellcome and by everyone who is interested in promoting and developing Traditional Music Song and Dance in the County. The members of the disolved Clontarf Branch deserve better leadership so get your act together and work within the organisation to get this mess sorted out. The members of Clontarf Comhaltas can then concentrate in the development this fine tradition of Music, Song and Dance in the local area. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Dublin2 Date: 07 May 08 - 10:34 AM North Dublin, the committee was made entirely to deal with getting the centre running and oversee affairs. When I say a member I mean employed by CCE and told by CCE to oversee affairs and let them know what was happening. Some members of the committee were members of the branch and there were people who had a background in this sort of area in organising centres and the like. There was only one person working on behalf of Comhaltas, the committee was working on behalf of getting the centre running and partly from the branch but this committee had to be a seperate entity because of the work and the amount of specialist work involved. And of course the branch wouldn't be there only for CCE, I think anyone could tell you that. I am talking about the present day. The branch is working perfectly normal without the help of CCE at the moment. It is one of the most succesful branches in Ireland with hundreds of members and many volunteers. There is also huge support from other musicians. Personally I believe that despite the amount of work CCE has done since its inception, it really needs a complete overhaul because its become rather disillusioned and idealistic and detached from the public. And the branch DOES have good leadership, how do you think it is being run at the moment. That is a story being peddled by CCE in an attempt to derail the process of trying to actually have a meeting with the Ard Comhairle which they have so far been stubborn in allowing. And its hard to work to achieve a solution 'within the organisation' when you are not in it anymore. That is why an independent mediator is being sought. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,GUEST North Dublin Date: 08 May 08 - 08:07 AM Dublin2 For a person who speaks about getting facts right, I have to take issue with you on a number of points.Every member of Comhaltas should be working on behalf of Comhaltas otherwise they should not be members of Comhaltas. The Clasac building is owned by Comhaltas and I understand that it was always expected that Clontarf Comhaltas would be very involved in running it and providing the entertainment there and I would have expected that all that wonderful talent in the wider Dublin area would also perform there.You say this committee was made(was it not democratically elected?) and had to be a seperate entity but was not the Chairman also the Chairman of the Branch and were there other branch committee members on it. If the Branch is working perfectly normal without Comhaltas why does it want to be re-instated. I want to see Clontarf Comhaltas Branch and all those wonderful people back as members of Comhaltas and working for the good of our great tradition. I would like to see Clasac open with Clontarf CCE involved but also involve other branches and members of the large Comhaltas organisation. If it is your opinion that Comhaltas needs a complete overhall because it's become rather disillusioned and idealistic and detached from the public, the time is right to show good leadership and if you are so passionate about your idea's I am sure you will get an opportunity to demonstrate them in a proper democratic setting in the future. I would love to see all this energy that is being put into defending the actions of the past re-directed to the future development of the organisation. Whilst I do not wish to go out in an argumentative vain I wish to remind you that the North Dublin Traditional Music Fraternity extends outside of Clontarf and these people have a great deal to contribute, working together for the better good of Traditional Music,Song and Dance is the way forward. I wish you all a successful and enjoyable weekend at the Dublin Fleadh. Go n-éirí ligh go léir |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: magb Date: 08 May 08 - 09:24 PM dear guest North Dublin Your issues are not very clear but.... the branch wants to be re-instated because it should have not been chucked out in the first place. And much as they might be eminently capable of paddling their own canoe, they should be able to reap the benefits as part of a large organisation that they have contributed hugely to. No organisation in receipt of public funding should be the domain of just a few people, that's illegal. All members should have 'ownership' and every right to direct the actions of the organisation. Comhaltas equals thousands of people, and I'm sure that Clontarf CCE - like most branches - has always worked on this behalf. Maggie |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,North Dublin Date: 09 May 08 - 05:24 AM Maggie I couldent agree with you more and sorry my points were not clearly made. I was responding to Dublin2 comments that Clontarf doesent need Comhaltas and that the Classac Committee was not working on behalf of Comhaltas. I was making the point that the building is and always was owned by Comhaltas which some people find hard to comprehend. I also feel it would have been better to involve other branches in the wider Dublin area from the beginning and perhaps the whole project could have been kept in check. Of course the people who have contributed hugly to the building of this centre should reap the rewards. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 09 May 08 - 07:09 AM > the people who have contributed hugely to the building of this centre should reap the rewards. Hear, hear. Imagine living in the area and seeing Clasac sitting there in all its magnificence and NOT being able to use it, after many years' worth of working towards it. For me, that's the bottom line, however hard HQ tries to justify taking it away from them. And a "reconstituted committee" is not an answer, it's just a slap in the face, whatever excuse they give for it. The people of Clontarf obviously CAN function without the resources of Comhaltas, but why should they????? How many hours of unpaid work have they and their children contributed in good faith over the years? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 12 May 08 - 04:35 AM Hello all, Just to report we (the reel branch from Clontarf) had a great weekend at the fleadh. All our bands and groups got through to the Leinsters. It was a little disconcerting to see our groups lists in the fleadh programme as "Grupa Ceoil" U12, U15, U18. Our individual competitors were listed under their home addresses. It felt wrong not to be listed as Cluain Tarbh. The practise room assigned to our members was given the name of a branch member, not the club and all of this hurt. However, the music was brilliant, and as I said the results speak for themselves. We can be cast out from the fold, but it doesn't change the quality and unity of our musicians and members who will continue to do what we do best, i.e. play music. Thanks to Kinsealy branch for all the work put in to making a great fleadh weekend. Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 12 May 08 - 07:37 AM Great to hear that Eileen and best wishes as always. The music is what matters in the end. I am just curious about something else. These are the entry fees for competitions as per Comhaltas website. Fleadh Entry Fees are ; - U-18 = €2 : O-18 = €4 - for CCÉ members, per person, per competition, in Solo Duet & Trio. All Bands are €15 each and Grúpaí €20 each. (Non - Members = €10 & €20 per person, per competition in solo, duet or trio.) Just wondering were your competitors charged the membership rate or the non membership rate!!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST Date: 12 May 08 - 07:59 AM It was interesting to discover how many committee members from the other dublin branches were so misinformed about what HQ has actually done,esp people who would'nt bother with the internet! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: dílis Date: 12 May 08 - 08:10 AM A great lot of musicians in the competitions at the Dublin fleadh were announced as being from Deetree where is this? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 12 May 08 - 09:09 AM Maybe its the posh area on the North Side. You know the one competing against D4 !!!! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 13 May 08 - 04:46 AM Hi Knight High, Re. membership of CCE. Thats a very good question. We are receiving mixed message about this. We were charged the members' fee for fleadh entry, so that must mean we are members (I know I paid my family membership fee in September 07, so unless I ceased to be a member on 14 March 08, dissolution date, I reckon I am. Thanks for your good wishes and support. I'd just like to ask all our supporters again to sign our petition on the following link: www.ipetitions.com/petition/clontarf all the best, Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 14 May 08 - 01:29 PM I received an unsigned three page missive by post today. I would like to share one of those pages here on Mudcat, as follows: COMHALTAS CONGRESS SAUTES ITS ARDSTIURTHOIR The Annual Congress of Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, meeting on the 2nd May, 2008, with delegates from all over Ireland, Britain and North America in attendance, unanimously adopted the following statement and gave the Ardstiurthoir a prolonged standing ovation: That this Congress salutes and acknowledges the outstanding leadership which Senator Labhras O Murchu, Ardstiurthoir of Comhaltas, has given to our cultural movement over the last 40 years. Through his dedication, idealism and integrity, coupled with his vision and professionalism, he has guided Comhaltas to its present world status. Comhaltas and the Irish nation owe him a huge debt of gratitude. His standing in the movement at home and abroad and his record in Seanad Eireann are testimony to the appreciation, admiration and affection which he enjoys nationally and internationally. We deplore the recent personal abuse to which Labras was subjected. We deplore the vicious anonymous letters sent to his wife Una. Neither Labhras nor the Ardcomhairle were prepared to preside over matters which would harm the good standing and credibility of Comhaltas and bring it inot disrepute. As was required of us by the Bunreacht, the Ardchomhairle unanimously took the appropriate action and dissolved the Clontarf branch of Comhaltas. Labhras enjoys the full support and confidence of the Ardchomhairle and of the general membership with 400 branches in 15 countries on 4 continents. His legacy to Comhaltas and Irish Ireland has guaranteed him an honoured place in our history. May he be with us for many years to come. Thank you, Labhras, for your friendship, leadership and inspiration and may God Bless you and Una always" I rest my case!!! Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Fiddle ruairi Date: 14 May 08 - 03:20 PM That letter reads like a Sinn Fein congress meeting talking of 'Irish Ireland' and what not. Gimme a break, such drivel! It goes to show how misinformed Comhaltas as an organisation is about the whole situation. This letter is just another level in the self promotion that is Labhras O'Murchu. Notice that there is no mention of how great the music is and how the music is held in such a high standing, only Comhaltas and Labhras because in their eyes the music didnt exist before them. I wouldn't be the first to say that Irish music isn't all CCE but for people who know nothing about the music they are going to look to them for guidance and I certainly don't want to be represented by an organisation like them. I didn't like them before this whole debacle, so don't say I don't like them because of just this. Its terrible, just look at the mostly tripe Fleadh programs that were just on. I can count on one hand the number of good pieces of music I heard, the rest was very poor and filled with the 'The fleadh is great' vox-popping. That series has just ended, and immediately afterwards The Full Set is starting again with Frankie Gavin and Martin O'Conner. Its like going from Ryanair to Singapore Airlines, or more plainly from 'Fleadh music' to 'actual Irish music that people want to hear'. Or something along those lines. I didn't think the organisation was so deluded until I read that, so now people I guess we can just forget about it. Democracy just doesn't work in the trad world I guess. The ard comhairle are basically just suits that are out of touch with the traditional world, their 'ideals' are of a bygone era and havn't evolved to the necessities of current society. Get rid of Labhras and bring in Bertie. Ha ha! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 14 May 08 - 04:27 PM Eileen This is the logical conclusion of an earlier posting which read: "Every member of Comhaltas should be working on behalf of Comhaltas otherwise they should not be members of Comhaltas". Comhaltas should be working on behalf of the music and its leadership should be answerable to its members - not the other way round, as is obviously the case here. Good luck with your petition. Jim carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Frank Date: 15 May 08 - 04:37 PM The editorial in the current edition of the Journal of Music in Ireland (JMI) is interesting. Seldom has the root of the ambivalence felt by so many in the ITM world towards Comhaltas been expressed so succinctly. The text of the editorial is below: "The reputation of Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, the organisation founded in 1951 to promote Irish traditional music, reaches far and wide. Seldom is the rise of this music over the past fifty years mentioned without paying tribute to its global network of branches which have taught hundreds of thousands of children. Despite its profile, however, for many years Comhaltas' leadership role in traditional music has been receding, overtaken by the growth of other traditional music educational organisations, independent festivals, weekends and workshops, private teaching and state initiatives. Comhaltas today is a shadow of its once pioneering self. It has been unable to develop with the pace of change in Ireland, to cultivate a culture of dynamism in its organisation which would see it thrive in the twenty-first century rather than struggle. Central to the challenges facing Comhaltas are the matters of communication, openness and transparency. In its fifty-seven-year history, few can recall a position in the organisation ever being advertised; statistics emanating from Comhaltas regarding its number of branches and classes, and its attendances, never seem to tally with the facts; the names of the members of its Ardchomhairle (Central Executive Committee) are extremely difficult to obtain; in each state initiative over the past decade that attemped to address the issue of support for the traditional arts, Comhaltas positioned itself as a negative force, frustrating progress, refusing to engage openly. Sadly, the word 'Comhaltas' in our time has become a byword for intransigence and covertness. This is unfortunate for the many branches worldwide who continue to provide a fine service to traditional music, but the absence of a culture of openness has meant disaster for the branch of Clontarf in Dublin City. Clontarf was, up until 14th March 2008, one of the largest branches of Comhaltas in the world, and was developing an ambitious new traditional-music venue for the north of Dublin called Clasac. In March, the branch was expelled by the Head Office of Comhaltas over a VAT refund and it has refused to date to engage with the branch to clarify why or to allow an appeal. To judge from the correspondences that the Clontarf branch has posted on its website (www.cluaintarbh.net), this could have been avoided if both parties had engaged in a modicum of constructive dialogue, which is what Clontarf requested. Why is that such a difficult thing to do?" |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Fiddleruairi Date: 15 May 08 - 04:58 PM I've been doing a bit of scrounging around found a good explaination of Comhaltas written by Harry Bradley on 'thesession' discussion site. The whole discussion can be accessed here http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/6697 But this the comment in question, I think its pretty accurrate enjoy! (also this was written in 2005 before the whole Cluain Tarbh debacle). Re: Comhaltas Critics The problems that most educated interested parties that I know have with CCE are loosely as follows: 1. The leadership. Larry Murphy has obtained himself life- long leadership of the organisation. This was not the way that CCE was set up, and it was certainly not the way that early enthusiasts like the great Breandan Breathnach wanted to see the thing going. Murphy has a long history of abusing his position there for political canvasing, He has dragged ITM by popular association with CCE into politically and morally murky territory by taking visible and audible stances on such contentious topics as Irish politics, abortion and music copyright. Regardless of what you think on these subjects, it is folly to drag a large and largely well meaning organisation into these areas... many probably just don't care what is said in their name of course. The late Sean Ried, that truly knowledgable,humble and humane visionary could not stomach what he seen in CCE as a growingly sectarian 'cultural' movement in the 60s. We have some very intereting letters on the subject from his collection in the NPU archive. 2. Presentation. The CCE 'talk'. Its tough, old school, nationalistic/ bordering on republican rhetoric. It is not very knowlegable when it comes to actual music but is full of glorious, nationalist aspirations for it. It is also deeply paralised in a distant past where the music MUST be saved as part of a nationalist agenda using victorian methods (ie. repetition, competition, empire building). Their identity from top level is built largely on a seige mentality that may seem superficially just when you look at how the traditional arts have been neglected by the irish governments since the Irish republic was formed... but their answer to the situation is to clam up consider themselves sole custodians of the traditions where they attemp to get control of any funding that may be going for ITM as was the case recently. Overkill in other words. At top level they are also insular, have delusions of their self worth and much of the editorial type comment they release in their rag is aggresive and paranoid. As a totaltarian organisation fishing for certain things they are also extremely manipulative, albeit in the clumsiest and most blatant ways with the worst sort of self promotion rhetoric and propeganda. 3.A few years ago Larry Murphy was appointed to create an official report on the state of ITM with a view to it being funded. Needless to say his report (which was really an infantile essay on how great CCE are) was shot down by many free thinking parties and individuals. The Irish Times letters page (among other places) became a battleground of words where people such as Nicholas Carolan of the Irish Traditional Music archive, Terry Moylan of NPU, Fintan Vallely, John Moulden and other music intelligentsia appealed for the report to be jumped on and slowly burned as the kindling that it was. Instead of realising that his 'report' was hopelessly flawed, innacurate, unfair and completely devoid of any understanding of the art forms 'on the ground' Larry instead went on the war path standing by this thing that a secondary school child would have written on a bad day claiming that he was victim of some dark, shady conspiracy against him. The truth was simply that the report was short sighted, selfish and not at all representitve of the needs of ITM. People were'nt happy with that. 4. Without going into the considerable details, there was recently a whole running battle over here when many (rightly) felt that CCE were going to recieve undue and unrepresentitive control of funding ITM due to some of their foot-in-the-door political wranglings. The attempt was to take funding of IT arts away from the general Arts Council of Ireland and ghettoise IT arts as some sort of stand alone freak. I was at the gates of the Dail to hand a petition expressing concern at this with among others, Paddy Moloney of the Cheiftains, Christy Moore, Paddy Glackin and representitives of ITMA, NPU and others. The objections from artists and intereted parties ensured that the stitch-up that we fully expected did not come about, but the situation is far from resolved in a funding sense and it will be a long push yet to secure a fair amount of support for the whole of the irish traditional arts. 5. And yes, CCE, or rather Larry Murphy or a like suit wearer signed a deal with IMRO. CCE and IMRO seemed to think that if the latter gave the former 375,000 euro then the latter could have exclusive rights to Irish music traditional arrangement royalties (trad. arr. as you see on CD sleeve notes). How they decided that CCE owned these rights to sell is still a mystery? They effectively sold Irish music! As usual they did not consult members or the rest of the ITM community on these trifling matters. Money, power and control. The problem is at the top and that is where the criticism is righly aimed by scholars and experts such as Breathnach, Vallely, Carolan and from mere minstrels such as myself. To quote Breandan Breathnach himself " CCE is an organisation with a great future behind it." Not for the first time I wish that he was alive to keep them in check, or maybe he is better off at his well deserved rest. Regards, Harry Bradley.' I think its a good explanation of the cce set up at the moment. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,aine Date: 17 May 08 - 10:00 PM CCE Conventions sound like the place to be for a wicked day out. How does one get to join. Hail to the Great leader. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Jim Carroll Date: 18 May 08 - 03:52 AM For anybody with last years copies of Trior, there is a wonderful cover photograph of your man gazing into the distance, against a background of arms raised in salute (statues of the faithful of Bru Boru). The inside cover has - I couldn't believe it - an election address on his behalf, headed 'A Sense of Place, Nation and Tradition', urging us to vote for him in the Seanad Elections. What was that about keeping politics out of the music! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST Date: 18 May 08 - 03:54 AM Whoops Treor - before we have a Pedants Revolt on our hands - I'm sure J.W. is out there somewhere! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,caitlín Date: 18 May 08 - 07:41 AM Taking advantage of an organisation dedicated to traditional music, to use it as a publicity outlet to tout for votes is beyond despicable. Especially one which accepts (relies on?) so much volunteer work, done in good faith, from its membership base. Murphy's been in power there for how long - 40 years? Since 1967? Whatever the exact figure is, it's measurable in decades. It's not good enough just to say that he was fairly elected. Fairly elected, how exactly? By whom? The public should be allowed complete freedom to examine exactly how these voting processes are carried out. Three or four decades is a long, long time for one person to be at the helm. Do the grassroots, dues-paying members get a say in this? Toner Quinn's editorial in the current Journal of Music in Ireland which Frank has already posted makes interesting reading, especially the bit that says, "In its fifty-seven-year history, few can recall a position in the organisation ever being advertised; statistics emanating from Comhaltas regarding its number of branches and classes, and its attendances, never seem to tally with the facts; the names of the members of its Ardchomhairle (Central Executive Committee) are extremely difficult to obtain." Link here: http://www.thejmi.com/article/764 The people who have the power are always in a perfect position to use that power to keep that power. Especially with all that free advertising space to use for electioneering and furthering of a personal career unrelated to music. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: The Sandman Date: 18 May 08 - 08:19 AM could it be, that he has been there too long? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: Barry Finn Date: 18 May 08 - 10:24 AM Shouldn't he be the sacrificial lamb for the betterment of the org. as a whole & to right the wrongs done in the org nanme. Let the head roll. If he were to go & a reinstatement wre to take place would that not apease all? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 18 May 08 - 10:44 AM Come off it. He's no "sacrificial lamb". He occupies the chief position. Those who run HQ are the ones who act in the org name. That means they are responsible for the actions they choose to take, and what happens as a result of those actions. The only thing that's going to "appease all" is to genuinely right the wrongs done in that org name. And there are some. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,East of Dublin Date: 27 May 08 - 10:33 AM i'm a little confused as to why the former branch members of clontarf are not playing the game. Why are they working outside of the comhaltas structure and trying to get back in? As far as i am aware none of the members (families, musicians, adults and children) of the dissolved branch have been told they cannot become members of comhaltas. So if the reported 400 members of the dissolved branch all decided to join the newly formed Craobh Cluain Tarbh branch we would have a situation where: 1. Everyone would be back in comhaltas, with voting rights, and information which is afforded to members of the organisation, and the branch given full recognition in the fleadh programmes. 2. A branch majority substantial enough to force a branch EGM and elect its own officers and committee democratically. Admittedly this would not solve the clasac issue, but it would force a continuation of the dialogue, and it would also be interesting to see if the former committee members from the dissolved branch were re-elected to their posts following the complete mess that has been made - assuming no party is completely without blame. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 27 May 08 - 11:42 AM Are you suggesting that by rejoining, branch members will have an opportunity to vote the premises back into their hands? Or is it a case of "Come in - sit down-shut up and do as you're told"? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Guest-North Dublin Date: 27 May 08 - 03:59 PM Dear Guest, East Dublin- If only it were that simple!! We thought of that - they won't let us!!! The newly formed self-appointed Craobh Chluain Tarbh committee has written this week to MOST of the families of the dissolved branch "inviting" them to join their classes in Clasac in September. However, the children of certain members of the dissolved committee have not been invited to join!!!! Certain families have obviously been hand-picked and anyone whose parent has been deemed to be questioning of HQ has been ignored deliberately. As if any member of Ceoltóirí Chluain Tarbh has any intention of being lured to this new Craobh with promises of a spanking new building - and nothing else!! When one of the dissolved committee members put it to the "Chairperson" of the self-appointed committee that all Clontarf members should be allowed go to the secret meeting in Malahide to set up a new branch, he was told they could not come as the general populace of the original Clontarf Comhaltas would vote out the new committee and revert to the original committee!! Is this not the way democracy works? Obviously not in Comhaltas circles!! There is "no playing Comhaltas at their own game" as Guest from East Dublin so elequently put it. The dissolved members are honourable people who have been treated abominably in ways reminiscint of communism.They have always acted with dignity. Clontarf branch has , at all times, begged for professional mediation to make some headway at this impasse. All requests have been either ignored or refused and the ordinary members of the dissolved branch have been at the receiving end of countless, unsigned , vitriolic, accusatory letters from Labhras addressed to each individual family. The latest several page epistle accuses members of the branch of "exploiting children in their care" . What a scandalous accusation!! The Reel Clontarf Comhaltas (now called Ceoltóirí Chluain Tarbh) is as united as ever in the face of their unjust and unwarranted treatment. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 27 May 08 - 07:06 PM Dear Guest North Dublin This is appalling behaviour. Look all you people out there, lets lobby the Ardcomhairle members to put some pressure to resolve this. Send me a PM of any Ardcomhairle members that you know and I will publish them here. Then its up to you. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 27 May 08 - 07:40 PM Some names in already: Ard-Chomairle Delegates from Munster Pádraig Ó Flannagáin (Tipperary) & Assunta Uí Chathasaigh (Cork) Ard Comhairle Delegates from Connaught Vera Barrett (Galway), Des Collis (Sligo) Seamus McCormack, (Sligo) Any more?? |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,Eileen O'Connor Date: 28 May 08 - 05:22 AM "North Dublin" has it in a nutshell there. HQ's problem is with our elected committee, and this is why they're not inviting them or their children to join the new branch. Guest, "East of Dublin", yes, I reckon the current committee of Ceoltoiri Cluain Tarbh would definitely be re-elected by the 400 members. They have weathered the storm extremely well, and if they were willing to continue at the helm the membership would be more than happy to vote our Committee in again. Eileen |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,South of Dublin Date: 28 May 08 - 06:16 PM Whatever the rights and wrongs of this situation, I can't help wondering whether the Ceoltóirí Cluain Tarbh are thinking "everyone is out of step except our Johnny". I don't recall anything coming out of the AGM, they don't seem to have any support within Ceoltas, or outside except in their own area. There doesn't seem to have been much support for the petition. It looks to me like the old Committee shot themselves in the foot and as a result got shafted, and the only thing left for Clontarfers who want anything to do with Ceoltas is to bite the bullet and accept the new committee (which, reading the above, seems to have been mostly the original committee who got things started with Clasac in the first place). |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Guest - North Dublin Date: 28 May 08 - 07:19 PM Dear Guest - South Dublin, There has been great support for the original Clontarf Comhaltas but unfortunately, due to fear, much of the support has been under the veil of secrecy. Many branches have confided in us that they share our horror at the way we have been treated but they admit that they cannot speak out openly in our defence as they are afraid that their branch will be victimised like Clontarf has been. Sad and worrying , isn't it? What AGM? That was held last Oct before any of this crisis became apparent. Since then there have been two EGM's and several information evenings when, contrary to what you allege , a lot of progress was made. The unity among the members was inspiring at those meetings. There was unanimous support for the committee and gratitude expressed for all their hard work in trying to right the terrible injustice which has been done to the membership of the original Clontarf Comhaltas. At all times , the committee and the general membership have behaved in a dignified, courteous, honourable and decent manner despite the most despicable treatment from HQ and the most abhorrent lies told and written about the branch and named individuals in it. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: knight_high Date: 28 May 08 - 07:21 PM Dear GUEST,South of Dublin How can you be serious?. If you read this thread you will see the huge level of support for Ceoltóirí Cluain Tarbh. Yes the branch got shafted alright - and illegally at that. As for Annual Congress and what came out of it. Well its worth re printing Eileen O'Connor's earlier post: COMHALTAS CONGRESS SAUTES ITS ARDSTIURTHOIR The Annual Congress of Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, meeting on the 2nd May, 2008, with delegates from all over Ireland, Britain and North America in attendance, unanimously adopted the following statement and gave the Ardstiurthoir a prolonged standing ovation: That this Congress salutes and acknowledges the outstanding leadership which Senator Labhras O Murchu, Ardstiurthoir of Comhaltas, has given to our cultural movement over the last 40 years. Through his dedication, idealism and integrity, coupled with his vision and professionalism, he has guided Comhaltas to its present world status. Comhaltas and the Irish nation owe him a huge debt of gratitude. His standing in the movement at home and abroad and his record in Seanad Eireann are testimony to the appreciation, admiration and affection which he enjoys nationally and internationally. We deplore the recent personal abuse to which Labras was subjected. We deplore the vicious anonymous letters sent to his wife Una. Neither Labhras nor the Ardcomhairle were prepared to preside over matters which would harm the good standing and credibility of Comhaltas and bring it inot disrepute. As was required of us by the Bunreacht, the Ardchomhairle unanimously took the appropriate action and dissolved the Clontarf branch of Comhaltas. Labhras enjoys the full support and confidence of the Ardchomhairle and of the general membership with 400 branches in 15 countries on 4 continents. His legacy to Comhaltas and Irish Ireland has guaranteed him an honoured place in our history. May he be with us for many years to come. Thank you, Labhras, for your friendship, leadership and inspiration and may God Bless you and Una always" Oh my Oh my!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,Mary Date: 28 May 08 - 07:32 PM Please show your support for the dissolved branch of Clontarf Comhaltas by signing our petition. It does not cost any money and will just take a minute. www.ipetitions.com/petition/clontarf |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,South of Dublin Date: 28 May 08 - 09:55 PM My mistake. I meant Annual Congress, not AGM. Knight High, I read this whole thread from start to finish. I got fed up of the constant sniping at Ceoltas. I am not a member. If I was, I would be annoyed at the criticism of the organisation often made by people who have either a personal grudge or who know nothing about the organisation. As far as I am concerned the members are working hard for the music and doing a good job. Yes, in this thread about 40 people from around the world, maybe a handful of them actually members of Ceoltas, expressed their support. Big deal. What about the tens of thousands of members who didn't support CCC, not to mention all other cultural organisations and similar of which there are hundreds around the country? The silence is deafening. My take on this is that for whatever reason the committee screwed up and weren't able to retrieve the situation. There's politics in every organisation and they didn't manage to "cover their assets". Happens all the time in real life. Just because you're morally right doesn't mean you don't get shafted if you make a booboo or even just rub someone up the wrong way. It's a pity the members were dragged down with the committee. I hope this mess doesn't have an adverse affect on the kids. That's my tuppence worth. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: GUEST,caitlín Date: 29 May 08 - 02:42 AM "For whatever reason" ?? Maybe you read the thread but you clearly didn't take it in. You've completely avoided actually dealing with any of the issues being discussed. Sorry you're fed up with all the sniping, but there are good reasons for it, which you've managed to ignore. Looks like the facts don't fit your opinions. Yes they have thousands of members who are working hard and doing a good job. So what? That's not the issue. Your post just reads like a party statement. |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interru From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 May 08 - 03:31 AM "I read this whole thread from start to finish. I got fed up of the constant sniping at Ceoltas." This thread is made up of (mostly) of people whose prime interest is Irish music rather than supporting the 'Glorious leader' or ' the organisation, right or wrong'. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus From: GUEST,michj Date: 29 May 08 - 06:32 AM eh? |
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