'Occupy English Folk Music!'

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 07:57 AM

"So here we are in Ireland, in 2111. Where is the Irish music of 2011 in all that? Is there any? What 100-year old songs will be played then? What 100 year-old tunes will be played? How will they have got into the tradition? Or will only the stuff which is being performed now be the stuff that's being performed 100 years hence? If the latter is the case, then that whole music will be a permanently ageing museum piece, unchanging, mummified."

Some good questions, Will! I don't know the answer to them - but I do know that any answers probably doesn't involve 'occupying' the genre, throwing out all of the old stuff and replacing it with something like ephemeral, 'guitar-based music which rocks'.

I also think that the question, "is there a continuing tradition?" is not answerable at this present time; although I suspect the answer is either: "no" or "the form has altered and the consequences of the changes that it has undergone and/or is undergoing are not presently determinable". The same goes for the question, "what songs will be sung in 100 years time?"

If I'm honest though I don't really care about what will happen in 100 years time - the future will take care of itself, whatever I think. Human culture, like evolution and climate, is probably governed by the the laws of chaos and anything could happen.

Finally, I rather hope that some of Big Al's songs, and those of some of his contemporaries, do survive (talent deserves to be recognised by posterity) - but whether they will be classified as 'traditional' or not is another question.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:08 AM

"Jim - its as well to write bile off as best we can, wherever it comes from."
SORRY Al - Sean's attitude and his failing to back up his statement reeks of "If I can't get one it must be rigged"
A handful of us put in a hell of a lot of time and effort trying to tap into the Arts establishment in the UK - not for ourselves, but so a national folk archive could be set up - I like to think that the 'Bright Golden Store' project at the National Sound Archive was partially because of our efforts.
It comes over as pure sour grapes when Sean sounds off about elitism and then refuses to back it up with facts.
Thanks for the voice of reason in all this BTW
I don't basically disagree with you but I think any progress (which some here feel to be unnecesary) needs some clarity as to what we mean by "folk" - we lost far too many people when the lines got blurred.
This is in no way criticsm of what people listen to - despite accusations to the contrary, just how we communicate when we discuss it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:25 AM

As usual a provocative thread which mentions folk music degenerates into the old chestnut "What is folk music?"
In many ways the argument is futile in that it is carried out by groups with very different views of the world.
Academics, ethno- musicologists, field researchers, whatever you chose to call them will by the nature of what they do spend great time and effort in defining terms such as Tradition, Folk music, etc. This is fine, this is what they are expected to do by the various organisations and bodies supporting them. This group are an educated elite and very small in number .
When this group refer to the 1954 definition of folk music I am sure they are more than familiar with it and spend many a happy hour at conferences debating its meaning and possible re-formulations.
Non- academics, which I guess would include the majority of performers and audience come to the music in a relatively academically uninformed way, and if you were to ask any audience ( Mudcat excepted ) what the 1954 definition of folk music was 99% would not have a clue; and why should they, they are already listening and performing music which by their own everyday definition is to them Folk Music.
This is not to say one group is better than another just that the differences often mean that dialogue can often be difficult and fraught with misunderstandings.
Kate Rusby has recently released a new CD "while Mortals Sleep" which is a collection of Traditional South Yorkshire carols, tastefully accompanied by a brass quintet. I am sure it will sell well with many contented purchasers. Personally I like to listen to the carols in a crowded pub, surrounded by people who have been singing and thus preserving this living tradition for many years.
Preservation of these carols has been undertaken in the form of field recordings. Professor Ian Russell is a notable researcher making field recordings of carols (:1999 English Village Carols: Traditional Christmas Carolling from the Southern Pennines, CD, Smithsonian Folkways SFWCD 40476, Smithsonian Institute, Washington DC, fieldwork recordings plus 28pp article.)
I guess Kate Rusby's CD may be easy listening for him, but its academic interest in relation to the history of traditional carols is likely to be small.
This is obviously a somewhat simplified argument, as clearly some people will cross the boundaries between groups. For either group to attempt to dictate to the other is unreasonable.
The other issue which this type of discussion often degenerates into is what is a good singer/performer. I shall stick with the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Will Fly
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:29 AM

If I'm honest though I don't really care about what will happen in 100 years time - the future will take care of itself, whatever I think. Human culture, like evolution and climate, is probably governed by the the laws of chaos and anything could happen.

Up to a point - yes - but our thoughts and actions and philosophies in the here and now are bound to have some influence on the future. And of course it won't matter to any of us a hundred years hence - but it might matter to some of us in, say, twenty or thirty years hence.

I've always thought of music making - like any art form - as an evolutionary process, regardless of the musical genre in question. Jazz evolved and continues to do so, with all styles sitting side by side. Blues evolves, with new music incorporating and extending the old forms - think of performers like Little Axe or Pig In A Can - and does so without debasing or "occupying" the music. Is folk music alone and apart from this natural evolution - bereft of creativity? If so, then why? If not, then how?

My original question, I guess, will stay unanswered...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:52 AM

It comes over as pure sour grapes when Sean sounds off about elitism and then refuses to back it up with facts.

I have no sour grapes, Jim; I have got on with my music in quiet humility for the past 35 years and I'm very proud of my modest CV which covers my passions in medieval, traditional & experimental music, and often unites all three, like when one of my compositions was featured on a Sonic Arts Network CD alongside my lifelong hero Karlheinz Stockhausen who is as much an inspiration as Phil Tanner. I have, in fact, rejected more Arts Council money than I've ever (directly / indirectly) received on the grounds that I regard arts funding as fundamentally immoral. What draws me to Folk is its essentially feral nature; it's what people do as part of life, and it is maintained and guided by the passions of a few dedicated souls - be they collectors, archivists, record producers, club organisers, festival organisers, shop owners, DJs, radio hosts, punters et al. I regard Folk organisations and degree courses with wry suspicion simply because in my experience Folk Degree and Folk Organisation are oxymoronic to the nature of the beast. I bear no grudges and count myself very lucky indeed to even enjoy the level of respected obscurity that I do.

I don't believe in cultural life-support; I like museums though, and I'm aware of a huge dichotomy / gulf / dialectic of social class issues that differentiates The Tradition from The Revival. I can't help this; I am a working class Marxist by birth though I refute the rights of any self-styled intelligentsia to speak for the proletariat in terms of their life, labour, struggle or art. That is why I insist that Traditional Folk Song & Ballad is the equal of any music on this planet and its value lies in the creative genius of the working-class men and women who made it that way no matter what the Revivalist have to say on the matter over the years. There has been as much cultural condescension as there has been reciprocal deference; this is the way of Folklore.

I think it's best summed up in Kipling's The Land; I find it supremely ironic that some see this as some sort of socialist polemic, when it is, quite obviously, a celebration of the continued servility of the rural working-class under feudalism. If anything underwrites the revival - yes, even to this day - it is ongoing fuedal issues that have never been resolved, and never will because Folk Music is no longer an aspect of working class culture, which has found better things to do with its precious leisure time.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 08:53 AM

"This is fine, this is what they are expected to do by the various organisations and bodies supporting them. This group are an educated elite and very small in number."
No it is not - I have been involved in research for thirty years - all carried out in my spare time when I wasn't being an electrician.
As far s I know there are very few (if any) full time researchers in Britain and your picture of spending "many a happy hour at conferences debating its meaning and possible re-formulations" is a total myth.
I'd have thought from your obvious knowledge of British folk music, that you would have known that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 09:29 AM

Dear Jim,
Two minutes on the internet has produced the following:-
Professor Ian Russell
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/staff/details.php?id=ianrussell
Dr Simon Keegan-Phipps
http://www.shef.ac.uk/music/staff/academic/simonkeeganphipps
hegemonic processes within England�s folk music industry and socio-political constructions of English national identity.
Professor Jonathan Stock
http://www.shef.ac.uk/music/staff/academic/jstock
Folk and Traditional Music BMus Honours
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/undergraduate/course/W340
The British Forum for Ethnomusicology is committed to holding regular conferences so as to provide a forum in which interested persons may share the findings of and engage in dialogue about their research.
http://www.bfe.org.uk/Committee.html
Total myth I think not. These are some of the academics who will no doubt along with others in the future spend many a happy hour analysing and often re-interpreting yours and others valuable field recordings.
john

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 10:02 AM

Well actually Jim I think that's a brilliant idea - a national folk archive in England - (perhaps ones in Wales and Scotland as well). It deserves a thread of its own.

It could be a bit like the Royal Shakespeare Company is. A subsidised home of national traditional folksong, in the same way that the RSC is the home of classical theatre. Folkstars and promising newcomers working side by side - all working for Equity minimum. I don't think it would support a two and half thousand seater, plus a six hundred seater, plus a London theatre like Shakespeare does - but why not; something could be done?

Thanks to it - you don't get the RSC saying that everyone else is not real theatre.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:18 AM

An interesting case it put here by an academic for some of the "Traditional "   Irish ballads originating in England. I suppose the 1954 definiton of folk would cover this. However, it does show the folk process and there is every reason to suspect this continues today.
Around the Hills of Clare: Songs and a Recitation from the Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie Collection.
The songs are a mix of the very local, notably the bucolic title-track, 'Around the Hills of Clare', the grand pan-Irish, and a smattering of the general inheritance of balladry and narrative song in the English language. The latter suggests that broadsheet ballads, sometimes originating in England, were disseminated far and wide. In some cases, they doubtless found their way to the south-west of Ireland and were passed on from generation to generation long enough for them to mutate seamlessly into the local accent, to become part of the local tradition. Tom Lenihan's beautiful rendition of 'The Constant Farmer's Son' is an example of this, as is 'The Old Armchair' ('Fair Margaret and Sweet William').
(http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Around+the+Hills+of+Clare%3A+Songs+and+a+Recitation+from+the+Jim...-a0156004573)
DESI WILKINSON University of Newcastle

Dr Desi Wilkinson, has research interests in Celtic and Breton folk musics.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:31 AM

John - you are of course right - there are a handful of academics in the UK. I was reacting to your - them-and-us description, which I feel presents a totally false picture. My own experience began where research and performance fed into one another - singer/academics like Bert Lloyd, Vic Gammon, George Deacon, David Atkinson, Bob Thomson - typified by the only one I recognise on your list, Ian Russell - singer, morris-dancer, musician, collector - eventually professor. The rest of your list could be quantum phyicists as far as they have influenced what I understand as "folk". Over this side of the Irish Sea Tom Munnelly would be a main influence - knitting machinist, singer turned collector - awarded a doctorate by Galway University a month or so before his death. Even the early collectors - the hangovers from the Victorian era, actually got their hands dirty at the 'folkface'. Sharp and Karpeles - the favourite target of knockers like Sean, traipsed around the Somerset and into the Appalachians (and in Karpeles case, into Newfoundland) and brought back a goldmine of songs which they attempted to make sense of. Given their pioneering status, they didn't make too bad a job of it, though I would be the first to agree that it could do with updating. All of these have in some way contributed to my understanding of folk from the body of material we had in the early sixties. The much reviled 1954 definition worked for me as a singer seeking a deeper understanding of the songs I sang and it worked for me as a collector trying to find out how the singers we were recording understood and related to their songs - much of which we managed to record. I resent being told by armchair critics like Sean that I and people like me in any way attempted to tamper with what we found - one rather unpleasant piece of work described all collectors as "thieves" (though he boasted teaching his children sea shanties - making him a latter day Fagin, I suppose) The problem isn't that "folk" has come to mean something else, (to the vast majority of people it doesn't mean anything) but that it has lost any meaning whatever, in the revival, that is. We no longer have a consensus as to what we mean - that can't be good for either singers or researchers. Lloyd put it best in Folk Song in England; "If 'Little Boxes' and 'The Red Flag' are folks songs, we need a new term to describe 'The Outlandish Knight', 'Searching Fror Lambs' and 'The Coalowner and the Pitman's Wife' - to which I can only add "or vise versa'.

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:35 AM

Sorry cross-posted -
"Dr Desi Wilkinson"
Very fine flute player and singer.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: glueman
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 11:47 AM

Thanks for the heads up Jim, devoid of context as usual. Personally I think you're courting the martyrdom of being banned for antisocial behaviour, the final act of betrayal by an uncaring folk world. Anything collected without pay is a kind of theft I suppose, though I was making a different point entirely. As for 'boasting' of teaching kids shanties, I'm not into folk Legolands or Disneyworlds, state sponsored or otherwise. If the children know shanties, which they do, it won't be through my social engineering.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:47 PM

"Thanks for the heads up Jim"
Oooo! its the little grass who wuns to sir when he can't hack an argument - and who encourages his kids to deal in "STOLEN GOODS" in the shape of "thieved" folk songs
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: glueman
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 12:55 PM

My brother, twenty years my senior, had an undiagnosed mental condition (as many were in that era) that made him subject to wild mood swings, paranoia and precipitate violent outbursts, much of it based on flimsy or non-existent pretexts. I doubt whether anything you throw my way, will be unprecedented Jim. Enjoy your beliefs, whatever they may be but most of all be happy.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 02:46 PM

Over this side of the Irish Sea Tom Munnelly would be a main influence - knitting machinist, singer turned collector - awarded a doctorate by Galway University a month or so before his death. Even the early collectors - the hangovers from the Victorian era, actually got their hands dirty at the 'folkface'. Sharp and Karpeles - the favourite target of knockers like Sean, traipsed around the Somerset and into the Appalachians (and in Karpeles case, into Newfoundland) and brought back a goldmine of songs which they attempted to make sense of.
What about Peter Kennedy, you never mentioned him, the only man to collect neilidh boyle

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 03:25 PM

"What about Peter Kennedy, you never mentioned him, the only man to collect neilidh boyle"
We tend to not talk about Peter Kennedy - whatever 'good' he did was balanced out by his damage - still being repaired.
And for the record - Peter Kennedy recorded Neilidh Boyle along with Sean O'Boyle; it's fairly common that the people who introduced Kennedy to his informants don't get mentioned) and Alan Lomax beat them both to it by about two years (January 1951)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 03:48 PM

It's, out of the blue, one of the best, most intriguing, simultaneously fascinating and entertaining debuts out of the UK folk scene in a long time. Ian A Anderson, fRoots, on Sean and Rachel's Sons From The Barley Temple.

Luckily not everyone shares your views, Jim. And your repeated attacks on Sean for holding views contrary to your own do you no favours. Let's keep to debating ideas rather than getting personnal.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 11 - 07:18 PM

yes its a bit of a dirty scrap.

There really is so much that unites us. Its a pity we can't isolate that, and just stick to it.

I suppose the thread title with its military ring is a bit of a rallying call for us to fall out. I don't want to occupy any space where I'm not welcome, and I suspect that's true of all of us.

In the seventies in Brum, when we organised a folk festival - every club in the city was invited to participate. We need a bit of that spirit of cooperation, if we are to advance our separate causes.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 02:45 AM

"And your repeated attacks on Sean for holding views contrary to your own do you no favours"
I think you'll find that it is the opposite way around Spleen - Sean as been maikg sweeping dismissals of folksong, researchers, academics..... and refusing to qualify, them on this forum for a very long time
A classic example has been is attacks on Irish music's success and the backing it has received from the Arts Council.
You might like to qualify your statement - he refuses to qualify his.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 04:08 AM

I dunno Jim. To be honest, we've got our share of swotty kids in this country - to be found at every folk festival in the land as they empty every performance space available, smirking their way through three slip jigs and a hornpipe.

I think what Sweeney is trying to say is that the Irish state sponsored folk scheme seems a bit 'maidens dancing at the crossroads' sort of thing. More Irish Post than Hot Press.

And the Irish Post has closed down.

I don't think he means any harm. He's just got reservations.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 04:49 AM

Jim... can you not see the difference between challenging an opinion and attacking the individual who holds that opinion?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 05:52 AM

"I think what Sweeney is trying to say is that the Irish state sponsored folk scheme seems a bit 'maidens dancing at the crossroads'"
Which is crass enough in itself but as he refuses to qualify what he says I am left with "I can't get a grant so the system must be crap"
The support for traditional music - after many years of it being marginalised has put Irish music, in all forms, on the map - especially with young people, and Sean's contempt is an example of one of the reasons that this has not happened in the UK - which was my reasong for bringing it up here.
I suggest that if you are really interested in what this is all about you look up the recent 'Robin Hood Ballads'thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: glueman
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 06:03 AM

An internet forum requires three things, first a willingness to engage with others, second, a commitment to logic, third, a sense of goodwill. If posters lack those it needs firm moderation to impose them. I see neither in evidence on this thread.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 06:03 AM

Jim Carroll

A classic example has been is attacks on Irish music's success and the backing it has received from the Arts Council.

You, of course Jim, never make any sweeping dismissals of UK folk clubs or the people that run them.

We had a great evening with Chris Coe and John Adams. Lots of excellent traditional and "in the tradition" music and song from them and floorsingers alike. Next Saturday we have Carole Etherton and Andrew McKay (who is very Welsh). As well as their own songs, strongly influenced by traditional music, they are sure to sing a few from Phil Tanner since they live in Llangenith.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 06:25 AM

think you'll find that it is the opposite way around Spleen - Sean as been maikg sweeping dismissals of folksong, researchers, academics..... and refusing to qualify, them

Jim, if you actually bothered to read my posts you'd find that rather than making sweeping dismissals, I'm pointing out basic problems of folkloric approach & methodology which in no way interferes with my overall relationship to the subject itself, in which I take a keen interest. You react against everything I say with a barrage of bluster, name dropping, put downs & personal insults. It's an irksome trend for sure, but all along I've striven to be civil, only to met with the irrationality and hysteria that typify your response to pretty much anything I say. Remember this is a discussion forum, not an academic peer-review; we're just talking about stuff, knocking ideas around. I really don't have the time nor the inclination (in this context) to reference and footnote everything I say, which is pretty much self-evident anyway.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:04 AM

have you got a blue clicky for that Jim?

Personally I'm sorry Sweeney can't get a grant for his endeavours. Sometimes its not the financial thing - its just recognition you need. I'm in no position to comment on his work - I don't know it, or him. However judging from all his contributions to mudcat - it must be something he cares deeply about.

I made an enquiry about a grant one time.   It was after I'd seen this really crap performance poet, who'd got World Council tours, his cd financed, and all sorts of subsidy - and I figured I could use some of that.

However you've got to face facts, some of us are just common as muck and whatever class system is in operation - we're at the bottom.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:19 AM

"have you got a blue clicky for that Jim?"
Sorry - never got my head around the blue clickie - about 2/3 weeks ago in the archive.
I'm sorry nobody in the UK gets the grants they deserve for their endevours - god knows, we tried hard enough when we were trying to launch a national archive.
I'm convinced that it won't happen until some sort of consensus is reached on what folk music is about
In the meantime - this gives an example of your 'maidens dancing at the crossroads'"
Jim Carroll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_music_of_Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traditional_Music_Archive
http://www.oac.ie/site/content/willie-clancy-summer-school-2011
http://www.pipers.ie/
http://www.artscouncil.ie/Publications/traditional_arts_eng.pdf

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:36 AM

I suggest that if you are really interested in what this is all about you look up the recent 'Robin Hood Ballads'thread

In which my only crime was to suggest (as the thread requested) a Robin Hood ballad to listen to. That my suggestion was our setting of Child #102, Jim responded with his customary stream of infantile bilious put-downs because it didn't fit in with his elitist state-funded scheme of how such material really ought to be sung - despite the fact that I've never heard any Traditional Singer sing Child #102, and only Revival singers I've heard were Spiers and Boden who did a version few years back, but many years after our recording was featured on the first volume of John Barleycorn Reborn (not that I'm suggesting their version was in anyway inspired or influenced by ours). Since Jim seemed so convinced that we were so off the mark in our interpretation, I suggested that he was privy to some darker secret lore on ballad singing; some heremetic tradition which qualified his absolutist hysteria, and his willingness to stamp out the efforts of infidels such as ourselves - and The Watersons, Mr Fox, The Young Tradition and Steeleye Span if I remember rightly.

as he refuses to qualify what he says I am left with "I can't get a grant so the system must be crap"

Like I say, I've rejected a lot of Arts Council money in my time & regard arts funding as fundamentally immoral when it could be better spent elsewhere. As of the present moment I neither want nor need Arts Council funding. This isn't an absolute rule, for there are many exceptions, and many deserving causes where I feel arts council money would come in very handy indeed, but, for the most part, the best of it happens because of the passion and hard work of those involved & pays for itself as a result. That's generally the way things happen over here anyway, for those who work very hard at the Folkface however thin the seam might be, and however small the reward.

*

I'm convinced that it won't happen until some sort of consensus is reached on what folk music is about

Well, you'd know all about consensus, Jim - meanwhile, Folk just does what it likes without worrying what it's about. Maybe we should start a What is Folk About? thread to address that very issue and see how many answers we come up with...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:50 AM

PS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folk_music_of_Ireland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traditional_Music_Archive

http://www.oac.ie/site/content/willie-clancy-summer-school-2011

http://www.pipers.ie/

http://www.artscouncil.ie/Publications/traditional_arts_eng.pdf

Maidens Dancing at the Crossroads

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:53 AM

I looked at that Robin Hood thread you directed me to, Jim. I don't see any evidence that Sean can't take criticism. Saying he's singing ballads the wrong way is not criticism, it's simply an assertion that there is an strictly defined right way of going about things that Sean (or Steeleye Span or the Young Tradition or Folk Choirs or anyone else who you assert doesn't measure up) falls short of. You are quite within your rights to say you don't like Sean's approach to ballad singing, even that you detest it if you want to: you don't even need to justify your stance - personal taste is all horses for courses. To say it's wrong, though, is elevating critical opinion to some sort of objective absolute.

If there is one true and correct way of doing it, what is it? And what is it measured against? And who is empowered to wield the yardstick? And who measures them? And where does it leave those of us whose tastes in ballad singing are different to or more liberal than that?

On the other thread you approvingly quote Ewan McColl as saying the greatest threat to folk music is that it should fall into the hands of people who neither like nor understand it. That's the sort of soul crushing statement that has the power to drain folk music of every last drop of humanity and joy. I much prefer what Martin Carthy said: words to the effect of: The worst thing you can do to folk music is ignore it...

Folk Against Absolutism. That's an organisation I'd join...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 07:55 AM

Whoops SOP. Cross posted.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:06 AM

it seems somewhat ironic given how great Ireland is in terms of funding and preserving traditions that:- "In 1984 the National Sound Archive began to acquire, preserve and catalogue the collection of field recordings made by Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie. The end of 1998 saw the completion of the project with the acquisition of the remainder of the collection and a total of 581 open reel tapes dubbed to recordable compact disc and fully catalogued on the NSA automated system." john

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:29 AM

581 open reel tapes dubbed to recordable compact disc

OMG! I hope they've kept the original reel tapes to go back to when the CD-Rs go on the fritz. All you need is a basic audio interface for your computer / laptop (try the Behringer UCA202 - £30 top) and you'd be able to do the job yourself on £30 software (I mastered our last album using Soundforge and we've had no complaints) & saving as WAVs / FLACs / even MP3s & backing up to far more reliable media than CD-Rs. Give me an earwax-cylinder any day - at least then you'd have something to listen to 100 years hence....

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 08:30 AM

Whoops SOP. Cross posted.

Great minds, Mr Spleen...

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: glueman
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 09:08 AM

Speaking as a recorder of traditions, I'm seriously concerned about the reliability of current methods of data archiving. One chap I spoke to says half of his older memory sticks were corrupt and his CDs were degrading rapidly, even in optimised conditions. Hard drives are notoriously prone to letting go.
I foresee a real cultural disaster to make this board's spats insignificant when our last century of sound and vision go 'pfutt'.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 10:13 AM

OTOH - who needs a permanent record anyway? All culture is flux & flow; things come, things go & we could do without the accumulated clutter and people getting too much bogged down in the past. I believe, with good reason, that Popular Musical Culture is an Unbroken Tradition of some 50,000 summers duration, and counting. For sure, there will be cherished residue, but let's keep it in perspective. All things have their time; all things must pass; but the Tradition of Living Human Music will endure as long as there are Living Humans to do it (and others to sneer at the for not doing it right).

The answer to digital corruption is simple though: if you treasure it, back it up!

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 10:22 AM

All you need is a basic audio interface for your computer / laptop (try the Behringer UCA202 - £30 top

In 1984 - 1998?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 10:32 AM

"I foresee a real cultural disaster to make this board's spats insignificant when our last century of sound and vision go 'pfutt'."

Then what do you suggest?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 10:40 AM

"Saying he's singing ballads the wrong way is not criticism"
Did I say he was singing them "the wrong way"? I seem to remember my comment (before the hissy-fit) was that they had become non-narrative and therefore something else - right and wrong didn't come into it. I went on to express the opinion that ballads, by definition, are narrative songs.
There followed a long and incresingly bitter tooing-and-froeing where I feel my argument was totally and rather spitefully misrepresented - prepared to pull out the relevent bits, but would rather not open old woundds.
Sean has contiued to distort my attitude - each time I have asked him to clarify his distortions I have been met with silence.
Sorry John - don't get the irony - our depositing our collecton at NSA was one of the instigations to developing the archive from non-British (largely African and Asian) to include British traditional material (Lucy Duran was in charge at the time and a massive instigator of this).
While we were happy that our recordings were to be held there we have always thought the whole archive could have been more usable - which is why we pushed for the development of a fully accessible archive - there or somewhere else. What I do find ironic is that the NSA houses the earliest and one of the most important set of recordings of folk songs ever made, the Grainger Collection, which, as far as I am aware, remains virtually inaccessible.
Personally, I still find the British Library, where the collection is housed, a fairly forbidding experience to visit and while we were happy to see the 'Bright Golden Store' project embarked on, its limited resources meant it could not even begin to tackle the recordings of traditional material existing unarchived in the UK, let alone make them generally available, which was the point of our depositing our recordings there in the first place - it still seems very much hand-to-mouth and inaccessible.
The Irish Traditional Music Archive, on the other hand, has taken full advantage of the change of heart of the Irish establishment and is putting up new material on a monthly basis - suggest you ask Malcolm Taylor or Derek Schofied how it has progressed
Sorry Sean - don't get the point of your link - we tend not to have competing threads entitled "Occupy Irish Folk Music" and fight for the scraps fallen from the establishment's table - Irish music caters for a broad church with a wide ranging congregation.
Explain please!!
What do you think of my "crossroads" examples?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 10:44 AM

In 1984 - 1998?

I was thinking of how the CD-Rs could be backed up and even improved upon from the original analogue tape-stock with excellent results for not much outlay other than precious time. And DAT would have been a far better option than CD-R. According to WIKI the CD-R / WO was introduced in 1988, a year after DAT. I'd be very surprised if any of them still work, unlike DAT. Time was, owing to the failure rate of CD-Rs I used to back up my digital archives on cassette; these days SD cards suffice - as well as the ubiquitous H4 (retired from field work, we now use it exclusively for mastering) we run a Zoom R24 for all our main recording work. Not a moving part in the entire operation until it makes it onto the lap-top...

That's a point - has anyone released an album on SD card yet?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 10:50 AM

I seem to remember my comment (before the hissy-fit) was that they had become non-narrative

No hissy-fit, Jim - and neither have they become non-narrative, only in your opinion.

Sorry Sean - don't get the point of your link

What link?

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 10:57 AM

"Folk Against Absolutism"

Now that I like

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 02:03 PM

Dear Jim
I have just had a look at the National Sound Archive web site
http://sounds.bl.uk/Browse.aspx?collection=Traditional-music-in-England&browseby=Browse+by+performer&choice=P-R
I clicked on walter Pardon and had a quick listen, was suprised how much is available. Going to Folk club now but will check more later. It certainly seems to compare well with the Irish equivalent.
John

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 02:06 PM

BLUE CLICKY

national sound archive
JOHN

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 04:11 PM

John,
Thanks for that - I am delightd it has happened at last.
Still doesn't solve the problem of acquiring privately held collections (we listed around 50 twenty years ago), but at least it seems to be a worthwhile collection.
Can't really say how it compares with ITMA; they only started putting material up on the web a year or so ago, but I know their in-house collection is enormous.
One of the developments here is the setting up of local archives (usually county-based); the Clare one has some way to go before we start making our recordings available but we've bought a house in the town which has been renovated as a musical visitors centre.
Sean
The one you enigmatcally titled "Maidens dancing at the Crossroads"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 04:27 PM

The one you enigmatcally titled "Maidens dancing at the Crossroads"

That was a link to a picture based on something Big Al said; no point other than a visual take on the romance of it all, assuming that's what he was getting at. Clicking on the link now, it doesn't work. Here it is again:

Maidens dancing at the Crossroads

Looking for the image, I came across this poem in connection with it with I find deeply affecting...

She was a summer dance at the crossroads.
She was a card game where a nose was broken.
She was a song that nobody sings.
She was a house ransacked by soldiers.
She was a language seldom spoken.
She was a child's purse, full of useless things.

[Michael Hartnett (1941-1999), "Death of an Irishwoman," in Staying Alive: Real Poems for Unreal Times, ed. Neil Astley]

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 04:45 PM

to quote Fred Trueman, i dont know what the bloody hell is going on out there, can we get back to.. occupy english folk music

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: BTNG
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 05:52 PM

It appears to have become yet another forum for what is and what is not folk, whatever folk means....

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: johncharles
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 06:15 PM

some one should start a thread/campaign to open the digital archives so we can all share the music,after all our taxes pay for it.
I am not the best person to do this as I am not very good at organising but I would definitely suppport it.

Subject: RE: 'Occupy English Folk Music!'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 11 - 01:27 AM

600!