Is traditional song finished?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 05:39 AM

I really don't have time for this any more. Hilary Benn has just given me a stonking interview on how we might survive climate change, and I relly need to cut it into the show. Plus I have to do the housework and learn 5 new original songs for the new band (oops, did I say that out loud).

But before I go, I'll say this, not because Jim Carroll will take any notice, but because I feel I owe it to myself.

I'm going to put out of my mind the image I have of a school bully going round thumping smaller boys and then spreading his hands when tackled by a teacher.

I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, and allow that he simply cannot see where the sum total of his comments leads.

The problem is that he is applying values from the middle of the 20th century to the challenges of the second decade of the 21st.

The songwriters and singers he champions have all passed on. No-one can book them. Instead, we have a clutch of excellent writers and performers who have some similarities with those of the early revival, but they are children of a different time, so they march to a different drum. It is unreasonable to apply the priorities of the former to the latter.

The number of fellow 'experts/collectors' has dwindled to a handful. There is, however, a healthy number of extremely well informed and motivated champions for heritage music - but they're coming from a slightly different place, so they work in a different way.

The Revival has become co-mingled with another popular singing movement, to the point where it's almost impossible to tell one from the other. Anyone operating in the field has to work within this reality.

The type of club Jim Carroll espouses was always in a minority. They required draconian intervention and a majority of organisers were not prepared to intervene to that extent. As a result the movement was disparate from the outset.

The situation changed in the 80s for demographic not quality reasons.

Today, we have a continuum, from clubs that would (I suspect) meet with Carroll's approval to Anything Goes. We can define one end of the spectrum, but not the other - it fades out into popular music. And we simply cannot draw any middle line. It is, therefore completely impossible and unreasonable for anyone, least of all someone who rarely visits UK clubs, to prescribe what constitutes 'flying the flag' and what doesn't - it is a matter for individual clubs, working towards what they want to achieve from what they've got.

With 400+ clubs and, say, an average of 10 mover-shakers per club, that's well over 4,000 people who 'who feel a responsibility to those who make the effort to come and listen' and who make day-to-day 'judgements' about what they'll allow, and what they'll seek to discourage. They are doing the work, they should be allowed to set the rules without being sniped at.

The terminology has changed though popular (mis)use. Promotion, such as naming a club, must use the language of the potential audience if it's to be understood. If folk means pop to the audience, then that's what it's called.

Jim Carroll seeks to deny all this. He rejects outright the honest experiences voiced by Crow Sister, Brian Peters and me. Fat earth? I should co-co. There is no point in discussing this as long as that situation persists.

He asks me to dredge up quotes. I'm sure I could if I have time and could be bothered, but it would be pointless for two reasons. First, the problems arise from the cumulative effect of his flawed logic, not individual sentences, and second, when presented with quotes in black and white, he merely swears black IS white.

He persists in saying that I am calling all music Folk. I am not. I am very careful what I call folk and generally avoid the word altogether. I am reporting what others honestly believe, and which is therefore reasonable.

Jim Carroll needs to understand that he is trying to referee a baseball match using rounders law.

It is simply not fair.

Tom Bliss

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 06:04 AM

Hello Tom
Totally agree.
Why did I name the Patterson Jordan Dipper CD "Flat Earth"?!
(And we even do a McColl song.....Fathers song)
I think Tom, that we should leave the past in the past.
Move on....Go,Move,Shift!
I wish you well Mr B.
We met once at Sidmouth. You'd just finished, and I was just about to do my bit. Will seek out more of your Oevre...I have a sneaking suspicion that I might quite like it!!!
But don't get caught up with disputes with the JC's of this world. It really isn't worth it. You play your music, I play mine. Does it really matter?
Have a good day Ralphie.
(Still have no clue what this 1954 thing is all about...Whatever it is, it won't stop me playing what the hell I like to play!)

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 06:06 AM

Adding to what you just said Tom, I sincerely believe that the greatest threat to English traditional music and song is Jim Carroll and his ilk.

He may be an assiduous collector and archivist, but if he cannot see the difference between "not caring about the quality and content", and using revival and contemporary as a means to bring more outsiders into contact with the real McCoy, then he is actively detrimental to the survival of trad, except as an academic library to be pored over by close minded folk misers.

I'd rather be out there singing it, and introducing it to others, and I think that is what our Jim can't stand.

Now, I have a life, and I'm going to get on with it and leave folk Nazis to chunter away amongst themselves. Ultimately, that's all they'll have left, and more than they deserve.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 06:27 AM

Tom
Before you go -if you haven't already gone - you have in no way had the grace to acknowledge or withdraw your distortions (deliberate or otherwise) of my stance - let alone proving or apologise for them - I'd placed you higher up the food chain than that.
Enjoy your timely interview.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 06:31 AM

Walter Pardon quoted by Jim Carroll:

Nine times out of ten I can get an old fashioned ten keyed accordion, German tuned, you can nearly tell what is an old song.   Of course that doesn't matter what modern songs there is, the bellows always close when that finish, like that.   And you go right back to the beginning of the nineteenth and eighteenth (century), they finish this way, pulled out, look.   You take notice how 'Generals All' finish; that got an old style of finishing, so have 'The Trees They Do Grow High', so have 'The Gallant Sea Fight', in other words, 'A Ship To Old England Came', that is the title, 'The Gallant Sea Fight'. You can tell they're old, the way they how they… that drawn out note at finish.   You just study and see what they are, how they work, you'll find that's where the difference is.

Which amounts to saying that old tunes are all minor or dorian and new ones major of mixolydian. Yeah, right. "Chevy Chase" is newfangled music hall and "Whoops, I Did It Again" goes back to Bishop Percy.

Source singers are not immune from saying very silly things.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:09 AM

Never claimed Walter was right on everything Jack - just that he had opinions on his songs and discriminated the different types - a fact conveniently forgotten by both folkies and academics on occasion. I am not musically literate, so I wouldn't deem to contradict the accuracy of your point - not sure where this leaves Raymond's "As for Walter's melodeon test, I get precisely the same effect on anglo with J J Flash..." though
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:36 AM

Jim Carroll

Bryan:
.
.
Thanks also for the breakdown of your club - perhaps you might arrange Pip Radish to be flown in each week for future club nights.

Read what I say, Jim. That wasn't the Lewes Saturday Folk Club, it was the Royal Oak a few hundred yards away. Notice the contrast; S O'P's description of Fleetwood Folk Club (challenged by another of its regulars) is trotted out over and over again while my account of a typical evening at the Royal Oak is brushed aside.

We'd love Pip to come down to Sussex; we always welcome enthusiasts for traditional music. It might be better if he came for a few days, then he could do the Royal Oak on Thursday (strongly traditional), Seaford Folk Club on Friday (rather more eclectic but with a large proportion of traditional), Lewes Saturday Folk Club on Saturday (obviously) (strongly traditional) and Horsham Folk Club on Sunday (again, rather more eclectic but with a large proportion of traditional).
Alternatively, he could go to North Yorkshire where Banjiman tells us traditional music is welcome or the London clubs that Brian Peters mentioned. Better still he could do what I recommended to you, get hold of Brian's gig list and choose clubs from that, ideally when Brian is booked. He could even try the Fleetwood Folk Club; they've got Bryony on 25th March.

The '54 definition has been a guide to how we worked in the field, no more

Exactly so. It was arrived at by folklorists for folklorists for the purposes of academic study. I tried to find it on the internet but it is locked away from public view on sites like JSTOR which is a subscribers' only academic journal site.

Thanks for Walter's list - the CD was issued posthumously, so Walter had no say in its composition.

Really? That's disgraceful.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:42 AM

And another thing...

You ignored the quote from Peta Webb -

Walter had a large repertoire, 150 songs from Norfolk and beyond. Some were traditional ballads or songs of great battles, some about the experiences of young men and saucy young women ("The Maid of Australia"), some are from printed Broadsides ("The Dark-Eyed Sailor"), others are music hall tearjerkers, all sung with due respect and quiet relish.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:43 AM

I think we got as near as we'll ever come to an admission that Wot Folk Is is anything Jim Carroll says it is. 54 plus his mates stuff he can weave a quick back-story around.
X-Factor indeed. Thank God for the youngsters playing the tradition who drive a coach and horses through Jim's kind of gauntlet run. Not so much Humpty Dumpty as Voilet Elizabeth, eh Jim?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:53 AM

Still haven't got a clue on this 1954 nonsense??
Can somebody Cut and Paste, so that I can find out what I've been doing wrong for the last 40 years..and then I can go and whip myself for being a very naughty boy.
(Have to say....Can't wait!)
Meanwhile, I feel a Macedonian tune coming on.....

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:07 AM

"Exactly so. It was arrived at by folklorists for folklorists for the purposes of academic study."
Not really Bryan - the definition was arrived at at the time of the BBC mopping up campaign and was the basis on which the revival was launched some years later - as I have said often - that's the door that we came through.
"Really? That's disgraceful."
Do you think so? What do you think about the Lizzie Higgins album released long after here death, or all the other albums made similarly of deceased performers - where's my Lomax collection - is that fire going?
Anyway - you'll have to take the matter up with whoever put Walter's album together.
"all sung with due respect and quiet relish."
Are you suggesting that Walter sang his Victorian tear jerkers in public? Never in our presence.. I think she was privately quite friendly with Walter and may have heard him sing them there, she was certainly a devotee of his, as she is with all traditional singers.
Anyway - Walter's attitude to his non-folk material was as I said it was and a matter of public record as we recorded his opinions on it.
Sorry Glueman - didn't understand a work of your posting - but am happy to assume that it's more of the old usual spleen.
Jim Carroll   
PS Seem to have mislaid a posting somewhere - try again
Jack - Walter did have the grace to point out the flaw in his 'melodeon' theory with his mistake on Black Eyed Susan - lovely up-front old man that he was.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:17 AM

I pose the question again
WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS 1954 THING?
I've never heard of it...
Please, Pretty Please, will someone, anyone enlighten me, so that I can follow the one true path?
(All other paths end in oblivion obviously.)
Show me the way to Nirvana.....(Actually, I've got the albums!)

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:30 AM

Are you suggesting that Walter sang his Victorian tear jerkers in public? Never in our presence.. I think she was privately quite friendly with Walter and may have heard him sing them there, she was certainly a devotee of his, as she is with all traditional singers.
Anyway - Walter's attitude to his non-folk material was as I said it was and a matter of public record as we recorded his opinions on it.

I think Belle Stewart may have had a similar attitude - she did less public performances than Walter Pardon, but again did a wider range of material for friends and family than she would on a stage.

That says something about their attitude to collectors and revival audiences, doesn't it? They knew what you wanted, so they provided it. One of those situations when the observer can't avoid perturbing the observed system. The categorizations and valorizations you saw in Walter's performance practice were ones he'd learned from you.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Tootler
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:31 AM

It has been quoted on a few of the threads at the listed at the top of this one, but it would take too long to find it. However, Maud Karpeles quotes in full in her "Introduction to British Folk Song" (1973) so it is quicker to type it out and here it is:

Folk Music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are (i) continuity, which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.

She goes on to say that "To this definition, more explicit statements were added":

1. the term folk music can be applied to music that has evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular or art music and it can likewise be applied to music that has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community;


2. The term does not cover popular composed music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character.

So there you have it. An excellent example of a scholarly definition complete with caveats and for a folk song collector a very useful guide indeed. For that reason, I can understand Jim Carrol's strong advocacy of it.

However it says nothing about the relationship of the songs falling within this definition to other popular music of its day, so is not entirely useful as a guide to musicians. As we saw from the example of Walter Pardon above, singers have always sung folk songs (as defined above) and other popular songs of the day. So we have clear precedent for the mix that is sung now both by professionals on the stage and by amateurs in folk clubs. Incidentally Scan Tester was also known to incorporate current popular song into his repertoire and was known to play the Seeker's song "The Carnival is over".

I must go now as I am playing recorder this afternoon. Definitely not folk music by any definition - 1954 or other :-) and I need to get my stuff together.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:45 AM

Jim Carroll

the definition was arrived at at the time of the BBC mopping up campaign and was the basis on which the revival was launched some years later

A long time after the term folk music had passed into common usage, in America at least, as I have already pointed out.

It's not that the CD was issued after Walter Pardon's death that is disgraceful.

You previously said -
He had a large repertoire of music hall, Victorian parlour ballads and early 20th century pop songs which he pointedly refused to sing in public, not just our club - and was extermely reluctant to record, despite our efforts (but we got them in the end, nice man that he was).
So someone (were they your recordings?) waited till he was dead and couldn't complain before publishing them.

Are you suggesting that Walter sang his Victorian tear jerkers in public?

If they were "all sung with due respect and quiet relish.", I don't see why he shouldn't have done. I'll ask Peta next time I see her.

Never in our presence..

That may be the crux of the matter. Perhaps he was adept at reading his audience and giving them what they expected.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:15 AM

"were they your recordings?"
No they were not - nothing to do with us whatever
"That says something about their attitude to collectors and revival audiences, doesn't it?"
No it doesn't Jack - any collector worth his/her salt, will record the whole repertoire and many clubs will try and encourage their guests to sing their non-folk stuff, if only to prove that there ain't such a thing as folk song.
I've told you what Walter said and thought about his folk songs - and have the recordings to back this up - believe what you wish.
Blind Traveller, Mary Delaney had a repertoire of around 200 folk songs and ballads which she sang willingly for us. She could have doubled that number with C&W songs but she bluntly refused to sing them for us. She told us that she had only learned them because "that's what the lads asked for in the pubs" (she also had a near photographic memory, possibly connected with her blindness). She added that "The new songs have the old ones ruined"; (all on tape). She had long lost her audience for her 'big songs (her words).
This was repeated again and again by Tom Lenihan, Mikeen McCarthy, Bill Cassidy - virtually everybody we questioned on the matter.
Quite often the collectors and folk clubs provided the only audience for their traditional songs. We know of one very well-known Northern Ireland singer who was reduced to singing his "bloody old rubbish" in the garden shed, so hostile were his family to his traditional songs.
I can only say to people who share your views Jack, and look on collectors as cynical manipulators - you really needed to have been there.
Jim Carroll
PS I have repeatedly suggested people read my article 'By Any Other Name' ( reply to Mike Yates' 'The Other Songs', (Musical Traditions - 'Enthusiasms' section) on what the traditional singers we met felt about their songs, based on our interviews with them, but I suppose it's far more easy and convenient to speculate!

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:59 AM

Incidently;
It is precisely discussions of this nature that do much to convince me of the wisdom of leaving our material on the shelves for posterity to decide.
We are painted as manipulative charlatans who distort our information to fit our own philosophies, while Walter and his generous fellow traditional singers are depicted as nothing more than mindless performing monkeys who dance to any tune we, or others care to play and have no opinions of their own worth considering if they don't fit in with the current way of thinking in today's clubs.
Tell me about the state of the revival and the generosity of mind of the people involved again Bryan!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 10:17 AM

"We are painted as manipulative charlatans who distort our information to fit our own philosophies.."

Self portraits mostly. Purely IMHO of course.

"...while Walter and his generous fellow traditional singers are depicted as nothing more than mindless performing monkeys who dance to any tune we, or others care to play and have no opinions of their own worth considering if they don't fit in with the current way of thinking in today's clubs."

On the contrary, Walter seems - like many other 'song carriers' - to be a very astute reader of human nature and fulfilled his audience's expectations to a tee.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 10:47 AM

We'd love Pip to come down to Sussex; we always welcome enthusiasts for traditional music.

Cheers, Bryan - I'll take you up on that some day. And I dare say there are better 'oles up here in the Northwest, although Fleetwood's a bit of a step of an evening - but then, I haven't even made it to the Sarries yet. "Pilot Light" Edwards, they call me...

Phil

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM

"Self portraits mostly. Purely IMHO of course."
Snide as ever I see - pity this "isn't a schoolroom" (quote); you might be persuaded to produce some of your examples.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 10:58 AM

Jim Carroll

"were they your recordings?"
No they were not - nothing to do with us whatever

So he was happy to record them for someone else as well as you and you aren't in a position to say whether or not he agreed to them being issued on CD.

any collector worth his/her salt, will record the whole repertoire and many clubs will try and encourage their guests to sing their non-folk stuff, if only to prove that there ain't such a thing as folk song.

Really? thread.cfm?threadid=102240&messages=65#2071996

Tell me about the state of the revival and the generosity of mind of the people involved again Bryan!

It's doing pretty well around here. I go to two folk clubs almost every week where I hear traditional and "in the tradition" songs and tunes. The "almost" covers the times when I'm away at festivals doing the same thing. Banjiman says it's doing well in North Yorkshire and Brian Peters seems to encounter it on his travels. As for the generosity of mind of the people involved, I am overwhelmed and humbled by it. See here for some of the dedicated people who are willing to work hard to give encouragement to others.

Are you going to quote S O'P again to prove me wrong?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 10:59 AM

"It is precisely discussions of this nature that do much to convince me of the wisdom of leaving our material on the shelves for posterity to decide."

Gosh, I can't recall the amount of times I've heard you repeat this, but you do for some reason? I appreciate you get frustrated with some people's comments about 'collectors' - but I hope such threats are not in response to objecting to the fact that others might have differing opinions to you about folk clubs and the revival? As I've said myself, the revival as a particular phenomenon, is of far less interest to me than the songs themselves.

I don't buy the notion of an ongoing tradition (no offence to those who write new songs 'in the style' of the old) as it's muddied the waters dreadfully for anyone new to the scene. I'd rather see traditional music treated as a discreet body of material and area of study and exploration by those with a focused interest in them. In fact I think this is an increasing inevitability in the years to come, as older members of the revival toddle off this mortal coil leaving the revival philosophy to be either ditched or reinvented by increasing numbers of young people interested in discovering this common treasury and exploring it for themselves. And also as official bodies start to recognise this material as a representing a significant part of our common cultural heritage worthy of support and patronage.

Others are telling you that the music is in safe future hands, and personally I say you should be willing to trust those hands will genuinely care for the music - without necessarily expecting that they must agree with all your opinions. All you can do is to show people the evidence supporting your arguments, and allow that they have intelligence and sensitivity enough to come to their own conclusions from it.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 11:26 AM

From: GUEST,Ralphie - PM
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:47 AM

I actually went to McColls Singers club (Something of Pindar??...too long ago to remember).
But I do remember that it was the most unwelcoming, unfriendly, most exclusive room that I'd ever been to. I didn't play at the time (1973??) but watching floor singers having to go through the X Factor bit, with Ewan sat behind them on stage, almost taking notes.
It almost made me give up on the folk scene.
Luckily as a musician, I found other outlets.
And am very glad that I did.
my sentiments exactly,I also agree with you about all this 1954 rubbish.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Angel of the North
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 11:30 AM

Where does this leave John Tams, Billy Bragg or Jim Boyes, etc?
Much of this argument comes back to Norma Waterson's observation about singers singing stuff about whose provenance they know little and which they can't be bothered to explore. Do they necessarily need to in order for a performance to be credible or touching?
            Some people evidently see "traditional" as a mood or a language rather than as a de facto pedigree.
          The answer to some of this may be in Stan Hugill's writings about shanties.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 11:35 AM

Cheers, Bryan - I'll take you up on that some day.

Looking forward to it. Didn't mean to seem as if I was getting at you but there is really a lot of good stuff going on, just maybe not everywhere.

Bryan

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 11:46 AM

CS
At my stage of life you really need to sort out priorities and direct your work and material to where it will be put to the best use - too much stony ground here for me.
Bryan;
No, I would rather direct you to Jack Campin's 13 Mar 10 - 08:30 final sentence and the interminable, small-minded nastiness of Glueman.
"and you aren't in a position to say whether or not he agreed to them being issued on CD."
Of course I'm not - and have never claimed otherwise. I am only in the position to know how he thought about them - that's all I have communicated here.
"I go to two folk clubs almost every week......"
And still you say you can't offer me what I require - traditional and traditionally based songs sung to a reasonable standard - or so you tell me - hmm, have to think about that one.
Sorry Bryan; am not going to become entangled in one of your equally interminable spirals.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 12:07 PM

I can only say to people who share your views Jack, and look on collectors as cynical manipulators - you really needed to have been there.

I didn't say there was any cynicism or manipulation involved. Simply that this was a situation where the observer can't help but perturb the apparatus.

We know pretty well what Belle Stewart's repertoire was (thanks to MacColl and Seeger) - all kinds of stuff, as you found with Pardon. Stewart sang the music-hall/pop material for friends and family. She wouldn't have done it for a folk club audience, since they were NOT friends or family, and she knew what they wanted. Simple as that.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 01:18 PM

"thanks to MacColl and Seeger"
Hamish Henderson and his visits to teh Berryfilelds I think you'll find Jack.
Folk clubs never were intended to be ethnomusicalogicical centres - we came together to share folk songs - I honestly never at anytime witnessesd a singer being told what to sing or not to sing - saw many of them being given requests for songs which they were happy to comply with.
I once asked Sheila to sing Drumallachie - which she 'appeared' to be happy to oblige me with - could be wrong.
I also heard Cathie Stewart sing 'She Wears Red Feathers'.
Walter spoke of his 'choosing' folk song while those of his age group went for the pop songs of the day; so much so that he was the only one in the family to retain his family repertoire - lucky old us!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:16 PM

John Brune also collected songs from the Stewarts.
I suspect Walter was an eccentric,I agree Jim we are indebted to Walter.I think Jack has a valid point too.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:36 PM

No, it isn't.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:04 PM

CS - Clubs
Virtually all of us involved in folk song are here because of our experiece in clubs - I can't conceive of a better way to hear them.
The club is a balance between the intimate (private) situation of the home, mainly the kitchen/living area, which, in Ireland certainly, was the original venue for singing, dancing, music and storytelling - and the impersonal setting of the concert platform.
I had some of my warmest moments in the clubs - as a member of the audience and as a singer.
Wonderful memories - like the night Harry Cox sang, the first couple of songs somewhat withdrawn and uncomfortable; then, after turning his back and discreetly spitting his new false teeth, which were giving him problems, into a handkerchief, sat back and gave us a magnificent night of singing.
Then the time I arrived too late to get a seat at the Singers Club and had to sit on the platform facing the crowd. Ewan sang Sweet Thames for the first time, in my hearing anyway (and most of the audience's) and I watched the audience breathe in time to the song.
Nights with Joe Heaney, Seamus Ennis, The Stewarts, Paddy Tunney...
Or when The Dubliners turned up en masse half way through the second half and Ewan and Luke greeted each other like long-lost brothers. Then we stayed in the bar till 3 oclock in the morning and listened to Ewan, Peggy and Luke and his mob sing and reminisce .
Or when we took Mikeen McCarthy to take part in a Travellers evening, how he went pale when he saw Jasper Smith walk through the door because he'd once sold him a dodgy horse. Or Mikeen again (all five-foot nothing of him) staring up at Belle Stewart in reverence and saying "Jeeze missus; you're a magnificent woman".
Or the time Peggy and Joe Heaney got into a heated debate about the role of women in society.
We'd never have been part of that other than at a club.
We watched as our late friend, the piper Tom McCarthy, develop from a shy, self-effacing man into (over a couple of years) a wonderful storyteller who could hold an audience in the palm of his hand with his description of his life and music back home in Clare.
Or his friend Bobby Casey, one of Ireland's finest fiddlers, who, used to play on automatic pilot because he was used to noisy pub audiences, but the minute he saw somebody listening at a club his shoulders would go up and he'd lift the top of your head off with his playing.
The clubs gave a platform to some of our finest singers and musicians who we would never have heard otherwise; it also produced some of our finest academics and researchers - Vic Gammon, Bob Thomson, George Deacon...
I wouldn't have missed them for the world, and wouldn't begrudge anybody in the future getting the same pleasure we did.
Great, life forming days that left their fingerprints all over you. I can't honestly imagine how our music would have brought us to where we are or how it could possible continue without them - long may they survive!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:43 PM

"the interminable, small-minded nastiness of Glueman."

As opposed to the same from JC presumably. I expressed what I felt to be unproblematic self-evident truths when I first dropped in on this forum and was met with school playground bullying from the old boys.
Your logic is flawed Jim and you cover your trail in cheap shots at those who point out the fault lines.
The nastiness you perceive is your own folk world view being held up for appraisal and found wanting. I'm normally deferential to those who've put the hours and footwork in but you're talking bollocks.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 06:29 AM

I also heard Cathie Stewart sing 'She Wears Red Feathers'. - JC

There must have been some pretty unhappy bunnies there that night.

Just looking in!

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 06:36 AM

Here's Jane Turrif singing Jimmy Rodgers' Away Out on the Mountain accompanying herself on the harmonium.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn2UTXDIDCA

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:26 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:04 PM

Beautiful post Jim. They sound like great days.

I thought I'd share some of my descriptions of what we get up to. Different....certainly, any less good or "authentic"?..... I don't really think so!

"I must mention the singarounds again....I walked into the bar at one point on Saturday and the beautiful sound of singing completely blew me away....2 Black Sheep, Keeper's Fold, Young 'uns, Mick McGarry and everyone else in the room all singing their heads off with perfect harmonies together.....the hairs on the back of my neck were standing on end....the very essence of "folk" music...perfect!"

"Sing around still going strong when I left at 1.15 a.m. top hearty trad stuff from Mick McGarry and his mates from Hull & beyond...and lots of good stuff from guys and girls with their guitars...oh and dulcimers, banjos (4s & 5s) mandolins, recorders, whistles, accordions etc, etc....... cool as f*ck actually. Folk music, cool?......oh yes!)"

"110 paying punters (thank you, thank you, thank you!) + bands, locals and assorted organisers meant that Saturday night was hot, sweaty and really pulsing in both the singaround (still going when I left at 1.30ish) in the bar and in the concert in the club room.........I really quite enjoyed myself!"

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:08 AM

Thanks Paul - certainly not less good - all about enjoying ourselves, which was primarily what we're here for.
Can I add another.
One night we were listening to Ewan and Peggy at the Singers when, just towards the end of a song, the door opened and the cherubic-faced, red- cheeked figure of Bert Lloyd peeped around the door and in he and his wife Charlotte entered, both in evening dress, Bert clutching one of those large brandy glasses, half full, on their way home from a reception at the Rumanian Embassy (Bert was an honoury fellow of the Rumanian Folk Music Society).
As the song finished, Bert, full of the joys of - something - weaved his way over towards the stage.
He had nearly reached it when the commanding voice of Charlotte pierced the air - "Al-bert". Bert spun on his heel, returned to the side of his spouse, and dutifully remained there till the interval.
As you say Paul - great days.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:28 PM

Jim Carroll

And still you say you can't offer me what I require - traditional and traditionally based songs sung to a reasonable standard - or so you tell me - hmm, have to think about that one.

I thnk I could probably see you in court for that one but as proof of the fact that you don't even bother to read what I say it's pretty impressive. It's bad enough that you criticize a club that you have never been to but to accuse me of trashing the club that I help run is well out of order.

To avoid any further doubt -

At the Lewes Saturday Folk Club you can hear traditional and traditionally based songs sung to a reasonable and often high standard every week. This also true of other clubs that I know.

Sorry Bryan; am not going to become entangled in one of your equally interminable spirals.

Jim you have a persistent habit of pissing on the efforts of UK folk club organisers in general and me in particular. ("crass", "dumbing down", "promoting crap standards", comparing me to Goebbels, little things like that.) I think I have a right to answer back.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 04:16 PM

Bryan:
All I have ever asked for is to be able to go to a club and be given an evening of folk songs sung to a reasonable standard - your reply
Q ""Do I, as potential audience, have any right to expect anything remotely resembling the accepted definition of folk song which my, and just about everbody I was involved with's understanding of the term is based on?
A "No, you do not because other people's understanding is different."
You answered the first bit earlier by saying that a desire to sing is all that is expected from singers who turn up at your club.
I didn't attack your club - you did.
Having expectations from a club, a concert, a film, a book.... whatever, is not "pissing" on them, even if that club is unwilling or unable to meet up to those expectations; it is asking them at least to make an effort to meet up with expectations.
"No more - no more" (as the song says).
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 04:45 PM

"Great, life forming days that left their fingerprints all over you. I can't honestly imagine how our music would have brought us to where we are or how it could possible continue without them - long may they survive!
Jim Carroll"

Echoing Banjiman there, a nice post.

I like the singaround formula for simiar reasons I think. Even though the material may be more eclectic, the community aspect and spirit of sharing is key.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 05:09 PM

"So - maybe time for a rethink."

How would you propose beginning to rethink all this stuff?
I reckon it's time for box of coloured crayons and a giant sheet of paper, and an afternoon kneeling on the floor like a kid..

That's the way I used to approach essays.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 05:10 PM

Oops. Last post - wrong thread.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 05:11 PM

for many rounds the barefisted pugilists ,battered it out,not one fighter could deliver the knockout punch,after many posts they were still locked in verbal combat,far too exhausted to engage in witty repartee,bludgeoning each other and everyone else into a state of comatose inertia
in the right corner we had the Crustacean Snail,in the left corner we had JC

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 07:16 PM

""in the right corner we had the Crustacean Snail,in the left corner we had JC ""

There's a lot more than just Snail in that corner Dick, and we have no intention of allowing JC to shelve the tradition for posterity. We are posterity (though JC hasn't noticed), and it's our tradition too.

I know he can't get his head round it, but Snail and I do run clubs where traditional music and song plays a major part. We both know the market in which we operate, as, I suspect almost all Club organisers do. Those who did not, have long since gone to the wall.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 10:29 PM

No intention of shelving the tradition for posterity Don
Our collection is up for grabs in at least 4 publicly accessible archives (5th local one in the process of being set up) and has been so for at least thirty years - added to as it was collected - where are your songs?
None of our songs are marked with a little (c), so they are all public property to be taken and recorded by whoever wish - free of charge. So far Peta Webb and Ken Hall, The Silly Sisters, June Tabor and several others who haven't needed to contact so we don't know who they are, have issued songs from our collection totally free from copyright - have any of yours been distributed in the same manner?
The same applies with our recordings which have been used in radio and television programmes, been published in collections without our knowledge and which we are delighted to know have been put within reach of whoever wishes to sing them (or tell them - stacks of stories as well). Any fees from public performances of our recordings are automatically donated to the archives so that they will still be available long after we have popped our clogs.
The songs we have recorded from Walter Pardon, The Irish Travellers, Duncan Williamson, the Norfolk fishermen, and the people from West Clare who were generous to pass them on to us will be available for centuries to come thanks to the fact that The British Library, The Irish Traditional Music Archive, The Irish Folklore Society, The Pipers Club, and eventually The West Clare Heritage Group (in the process of being established) have been generous to give them shelf space. All have been given full permission to make them freely available on the web. The Roud Index has listed and located many of the songs we have collected so people now know where to find them should they want them.
Nobody who has ever asked for copies of our material has been turned down - ask around.
The only question that remains at present is how much more time we are going to be able to put in to make our work more accessible. No problem with our Irish stuff, they respect their tradition and are making it work. Just got back from the annual St Patrick's Day Parade in town were there were stacks of youngsters playing traditional music to a standard that most of them would be an asset to any folk club. Went into the pub later and took part in a singing session which lasted for three hours and was still going strong when we left.
It's the English material that the question mark hangs over. I'm left with the impression that you and people like you wouldn't recognise or appreciate a traditional song if it ran up behind you with its hand over its ear and bit your arse - that's the stuff that'll probably stay on the shelf, because frankly, we can't think for the life of us who would possibly be interested in it - apart from the notable few; no sign of anybody here.
Come back and tell me about 'shelving for posterity' when you can match that. As they say "put your money where your rather loudly belligerent mouth is".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:20 AM

I know I shouldn't but -

Jim Carroll

All I have ever asked for is to be able to go to a club and be given an evening of folk songs sung to a reasonable standard - your reply
Q ""Do I, as potential audience, have any right to expect anything remotely resembling the accepted definition of folk song which my, and just about everbody I was involved with's understanding of the term is based on?
A "No, you do not because other people's understanding is different."

Correct. As I have pointed out, the word "folk" has been used with diferent shades of meaning since at least the 1940s. Every club will use it in the way that makes sense to them and they will, almost certainly make it clear in their advertising what you can expect.
For instance, Chorlton Folk Club's web site says "acoustic singers/players/poets/songwriters/clog dancers/painters/surrealists/time travellers....welcome...." I don't think it would be too hard for you to work out that it wasn't quite your sort of club.
Our publicity says "Our interest is mainly (but not exclusively) in British traditional music and song and contemporary folk music/song derived from the tradition." I think you would probably enjoy an evening with us.

You answered the first bit earlier by saying that a desire to sing is all that is expected from singers who turn up at your club.
I didn't attack your club - you did.

I have said many times that our policy does not lead to poor standards. It is you who seem to believe that wanting to sing automatically disqualifies someone from being able to do so. Please don't hold me responsible for something you have said.

Having expectations from a club, a concert, a film, a book.... whatever, is not "pissing" on them,

and in the latest post -

It's the English material that the question mark hangs over. I'm left with the impression that you and people like you wouldn't recognise or appreciate a traditional song if it ran up behind you with its hand over its ear and bit your arse - that's the stuff that'll probably stay on the shelf, because frankly, we can't think for the life of us who would possibly be interested in it - apart from the notable few; no sign of anybody here.

Charmed I'm sure.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:36 AM

I'm left with the impression that you and people like you wouldn't recognise or appreciate a traditional song if it ran up behind you with its hand over its ear and bit your arse - that's the stuff that'll probably stay on the shelf, because frankly, we can't think for the life of us who would possibly be interested in it - apart from the notable few; no sign of anybody here.

Jim - what a rancorous and ill-willed statement. It's "people like" Bryan and his friends and colleagues in Lewes - and in other clubs - who most certainly know a huge amount about traditional English music, and who promote it and perform it wonderfully well in their clubs. I go to many of these clubs and I can vouch - as an experienced musician and performer in many genres of music over 45 years - for the excellence of their evenings and their support over many years for traditional music as defined by you and others of your ilk. I'm more than willing to respect you for the hard work you've done yourself in the field, and I usually try not to rise to the level of personal insult we regrettably see too often on Mudcat but - frankly - this statement of yours disgusts me.

You bang on constantly about the public performance of many young Irish children who perform their traditional music in the traditional way. What will they be performing in 50 or a 100 years' time? Will there be no new tunes - no new songs - will nothing have developed or changed or altered or been added to? Will it all be, as I described it in an earlier post, pickled in aspic? If you can't accept that music changes and transmutes - which means people writing new stuff in the idiom and adding their mite - then what a dull world it would be. However, I note that, time and time again, when challenged to define how far new writing/composing in the "folk idiom: should go - there's a reluctance on your part to admit any kind of formal preference or commitment. When challenged to consider how tunes, not songs, can develop and embrace the old and the new, there's an equal reluctance to come up with a viewpoint or a statement.

I can understand such a reluctance but, to smear genuinely hard-working club performers, organisers and others in the English folk world with the sort of statement I've quoted at the head of this post does you no credit.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:05 AM

I am interested in traditional songs ,jim,and I know Bryan Creer is as well.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 09:16 AM

"I think you would probably enjoy an evening with us."
Then why did you tell me you couldn't give me what I'm looking for?
"I have said many times that our policy does not lead to poor standards."
And I have said many times that accepting no standards other than "wanting to" can and has led to unacceptably poor performances - seen it, described it, been told about it by performer friends and even seen it argued for on Mudcat.
"Charmed I'm sure."
Despite our differences I include your name among the noted few Bryan and have done since I first communicaed with you.
"Jim - what a rancorous and ill-willed statement."
My statement was addressed directly to Don (Wyziwyg)T (read it) whose bullying and haranguing has done little to back up his own arguments, let alone dissuade me of mine.
"Will there be no new tunes - no new songs - "
There certainly will be, there are at present, but what they have not done is loose sight of the traditional base.
There is an extremely healthy situation here in Ireland as regards traditional music, but this has in no way prevented new songs and tunes being made, on the contrary, it has encouraged this enormously. I have persistantly advocated here on Mudcat that the making of new songs is essential for the continuance of our traditional music - that is not lip-service, it has been part of my activities almost from day one (not as a writer unfortunately).
At nearly 70 years of age I and Pat are faced with a mass of material (ours and the work of others) which we have to decide how to handle in our remaining years.
We have been given carte blanche to publish collections of our Irish Traveller material; there is a possibility of publishing our Clare recordings as song and story collections.
I get no feedback whatever from our English material (a kind offer from an old friend on Mudcat but no idea if there is a call for what we have).
A correspondant on another thread has just lumped me under the collective description of "collectors and other thieves" - all very inspiring.
When push comes to shove - where would you put the neccessary effort in this situation?   
"this statement of yours disgusts me."
And the disinterest and antipathy I have encountered on Mudcat towards the music I have been listening to for the last half century and the suggestion that it takes no effort on the part of the performers before it is placed before the public, and the equating of it with pop-pap....... etc. saddens me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:41 PM

Jim Carroll

Then why did you tell me you couldn't give me what I'm looking for?

I didn't.

And I have said many times that accepting no standards other than "wanting to" can and has led to unacceptably poor performances

Maybe it can; maybe it has, but that doesn't mean it always will. It hasn't at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club. Your analysis may be a little simplistic. There may be other factors to consider.

Despite our differences I include your name among the noted few Bryan and have done since I first communicaed with you.

Thank you, Jim, for your support over the last couple of years but I'd rather not be counted amongst the noted few if you don't mind. That would involve accepting your damning assessment of all the other excellent clubs in the country.

My statement was addressed directly to Don (Wyziwyg)T (read it) whose bullying and haranguing has done little to back up his own arguments, let alone dissuade me of mine.

You would leave your work on the shelf just because one person has annoyed you? Actually your statement ends "apart from the notable few; no sign of anybody here." so I think you may have had rather more people than Don in mind.

I get no feedback whatever from our English material (a kind offer from an old friend on Mudcat but no idea if there is a call for what we have).

You seem to have completely forgotten the ballads thread on which you said "The number of hits on this thread should lay the ghost that nobody sings ballads anymore - thanks for that CS."

A correspondant on another thread has just lumped me under the collective description of "collectors and other thieves" - all very inspiring.

Yes, one of the "I haven't been to a folk club for thirty years because I know how crap they are" brigade. Please do not hold anybody else responsible for anything Glueman says.

And the disinterest and antipathy I have encountered on Mudcat towards the music I have been listening to for the last half century and the suggestion that it takes no effort on the part of the performers before it is placed before the public, and the equating of it with pop-pap....... etc. saddens me.

That's because you blank out of your mind anything that doesn't fit your built in prejudices.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 06:53 PM

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