Is traditional song finished?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 11:50 AM

"expecting King Lear to be done in broad Birmingham"

Now THAT sounds like my kind of night out!

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:03 PM

I wasn't asked for a critique - just an instant reaction.
Don't give critiques without being asked by the singer.
"Now THAT sounds like my kind of night out!"
Go and wash your mouth out!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:26 PM

One Brian Peters, there's only one Brian Peters"
thank god for that,BrianPeters would have afew problems if other brian peters turned up to do his bookings.
personally I dont think Brian Peters is a very good footballer, in fact he is crap.
surely the chant should be theres only one Martin Peters

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 12:55 PM

"Go and wash your mouth out"

Sorry, Jim, it won't make any difference. The Brummie accent's indelible...

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM

Jim Carroll

Bryan - once again you (deliberately?) misrepresent what I say.
I did not stop going to clubs (30 years ago or thirty minutes ago), because I know how crap they are.

I didn't say you did. I said that what those people said was not important but that what you said was. Please stop putting twisted interpretaions on what I say.

And will you please stop blaming me and all other current folk club organisers for the things that went wrong back in the seventies and eighties when YOU were a folk club organiser.

I think what you need to do now is get a list of all the clubs Brian has played at (which includes the Lewes Saturday Folk Club and give them try.

If Walter Pardon was around now, we'd book like a shot.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 02:24 PM

"I dont think Brian Peters is a very good footballer, in fact he is crap."

How very dare you! Next time we meet on a football field, Dick, you will be the recipient of one of my 'special' tackles.

A fellow came to one of my gigs in America last year for no better reason than that his name was 'Brian Peters' and he wanted to meet the real one. Actually I found several namesakes, on my last Vanity Google Search.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 02:44 PM

"Is traditional song finished?"
Dunno the boring gits still on the intro and explanations.....Grrr

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:01 PM

""It would be a sad old world if we weres stuck with Corrie and East Enders and counld no longer enjoy Dickens and Hardy.""

I don't recall anyone saying you should not enjoy traditional music and song. Can you point to any single instance where that has happened.

You seem oblivious to the fact that you are the only one here who is actually tring to control what people are allowed to enjoy.

It would be a sad old world if we weres stuck with Dickens and Hardy Enders, and could no longer enjoy Eastenders and Corrie....., and that is what you are advocating.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Bert
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 03:44 PM

...But if I'm interested in learning about extremely old folk songs that were around long, long before the modern revival of the 50's/60's, what should I call them?...

That is a problem Crow Sister, Because all old songs cannot be called traditional.
Some old songs are traditional, some old songs are just plain dead.
Some Music Hall songs are traditional, some Music Hall songs are just dead.
Some Broad Sheet songs are traditional, some Broad Sheet songs are just dead.

Just because a song is old doesn't make it traditional and just because another is newer, does not make it not traditional.

Brian, you say you are 'someone who prefers words to actually mean something' Well here's one. It is not traditional but it does make a social comment.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:15 PM

How very dare you! Next time we meet on a football field, Dick, you will be the recipient of one of my 'special' tackles.
does that mean I will be singing castrato?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:26 PM

Just thought I'd re-post this in something like English.

""It would be a sad old world if we weres stuck with Corrie and East Enders and counld no longer enjoy Dickens and Hardy.""

I don't recall anyone saying you should not enjoy traditional music and song. Can you point to any single instance where that has happened.

You seem oblivious to the fact that you are the only one here who is actually trying to control what people are allowed to enjoy.

It would also be a sad old world if we were stuck with Dickens and Hardy, and could no longer enjoy Eastenders and Corrie....., and that, in essence, is what you are advocating.


Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:28 PM

""How very dare you! Next time we meet on a football field, Dick, you will be the recipient of one of my 'special' tackles.
does that mean I will be singing castrato?""

Just thank your lucky stars, Dick, that you won't be singing Capello (Fabio Capello).

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:03 PM

A fellow came to one of my gigs in America last year for no better reason than that his name was 'Brian Peters' and he wanted to meet the real one.

There aren't that many Brians in America, as I understand it - it's one of those exotic ethnic names, like Kevin.

If we're talking about duplicates, you should try being called Phil Edwards - I'm a French C&W singer and a surfing legend, among many other things.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:32 PM

"There aren't that many Brians in America, as I understand it - it's one of those exotic ethnic names, like Kevin."

Is this my opportunity to tell y'all that my American friend Dannah was going to call her band "The Nigels"?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 06:57 PM

Don - nobody s trying to control anything; on the other hand you appear to be trying to be agressively offensive - and making a pretty good job of it - please don't.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 07:20 PM

"Don't suppose anyone happened to sing The Magdalene's Lament"
One of the ladies asked Ewan to sing Dirty Old Town, which he did.
"last week down in t'Big Smoke....."
Sorry to have missed you in London last week Brian; we were there for a few days and saw your name in 'Time Out' - for the day before we arrived.
Next time maybe.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:52 AM

Well, I just Googled myself....(No, don't go there!) and apparently I'm a dead American footballer. Theres even a photo of my gravestone!
So, quite obviously I'm 100% traditional now. That's a relief!

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:30 AM

" Because all old songs cannot be called traditional."

Sure.
But in this context (ie: on a folk music forum) I'm interested in old *folk* songs - traditional folk songs from the old oral tradition, rather than old songs by (say) Dowland or Byrd.
Although they're old too and although I do find them interesting and even sing a couple, they're not 'folk' songs and so people would be more likely to discuss those kinds of 'old' songs on an 'early music forum'.

"Some old songs are traditional, some old songs are just plain dead."

Huh?

Is Music Hall 'dead', or is it a thriving form of popular entertainment?

Anyway, I'm off to compose some Renaissance music - nope, not mere modern music in the style of Rennaisance music, not just any old modern madrigal, real deal actual Renaissance!
Now where'd I pop me Tardis? ;-)

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:57 AM

I can see much virtue in not enjoying East Enders or Corrie. East Enders was adventurous when originated but is now nothing but slumcult.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:42 AM

Can you bring us back a box of quill pens CS - I'm going to write a few Shakespeare plays.
"I can see much virtue in not enjoying East Enders or Corrie..."
Don't think either of them were as good as mrd Dale's Diary or Dick Barton.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:54 AM

"Can you bring us back a box of quill pens CS - I'm going to write a few Shakespeare plays."

Deffo Jim! Looking forward to 'em!

Meanwhile I've decided that the next time I sing a Peter Bellamy song in the folk idiom, I will actually BE Peter Bellamy singing that song. And people said he was dead! Bleeding purist kill-joys.. ;-)

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 07:13 AM

""Don - nobody s trying to control anything; on the other hand you appear to be trying to be agressively offensive - and making a pretty good job of it - please don't.
Jim Carroll ""


from an earlier post by Jim Carroll:-   ""If I go to a folk club it has to correspond with what I know folk song sounds like. I have no objection to songs that are written in folk song styles - these are an essential part of how I see the folk revival - I've sung them myself and have always admired song makers who write them:""

Taken in conjunction with your other comment, ""If they asked me where tthey could stll hear it live, what should I say; "Don't go to a folk club; they don't do folk any more"?""

No attempt to control there then!
______________________________________________________________________
Aggressively Offensive?


""The third one might just still be going - we've got the details somewhere if you want to try for a booking, it gave the impression of being the sort of place that would put up with any old crap."" Jim Carroll to me.

""What utter crap; you really do go from idiocy to idiocy SO'P.
So far you have given nothing but bullshit and doublespeak verbiage.
All you've shown over and over again is your ignorance and indifference. You are a pratt - and a supercilious one - old man."" Jim Carroll to S O'P

""In the mid seventies things started to change and by the eighties it became virtually impossible to be guaranteed a night of folk or folk related songs, the clubs had become a platform for navel-gazing introspective mumbling their way through stuff that was neither fish nor fowl;""

""The scene hadn't yet become the refuge for failed, fifteenth-rate pop performers and would be Sinatra wannabes, that it has since become, but that didn't take too long to happen."" Jim Carrolls' take on those of us who work for nothing to perpetuate his, as well as our favourite music, namely folk music.

And you say I'm good at being aggressively offensive?

You don't seem to be able to get your head round the fact that what we are doing is giving present day audiences enough of what they want to get their bums on seats, and then including as much of what we, and you, want as they will accept, and pay to hear.

The amount of traditional music, in the clubs and sessions I currently attend, is steadily increasing, and the number of young attenders is rising fast, and they are taking to traditional music like ducks to water.

Clubs have been going through a thin time, and it was largely because of the inability of 70s organisers to bend a little with the prevailing winds.

Some of us did, and we're still here, and so is the music.

Good thing we all didn't swan off to Ireland, or you would have nobody to despise and insult, and you might be forced to examine the possibility that you might bear some responsibility for the slump in audiences in the first place.

Now I'll let you get back to your pontificating and patronising about your superior knowledge of folk clubs in a country you don't even live in.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 07:31 AM

Bert wrote:

"Just because a song is old doesn't make it traditional and just because another is newer, does not make it not traditional."

No argument there, Bert. I don't think Tom Lehrer, for instance, will 'become traditional' however old his songs get, because - witty though they are - I see no evidence at all of them being clasped to our collective bosom, entering general public consiciousness, or being sung by anyone in the 21st century beyond a very few people in folk clubs and members of the Lehrer Appreciation Society.

"Brian, you say you are 'someone who prefers words to actually mean something' Well here's one. It is not traditional but it does make a social comment."

Nothing wrong with social comment. Good on you for making a point. People like Leon Rosselson, Jim Woodland, Alistair Hulett have been writing great songs of social comment for decades (as did MacColl, of course). However, as I suspect you knew, the word I wanted to mean something was 'traditional'. I still don't buy the idea that subject matter of longstanding societal concern (like homelessness) makes a song 'traditional'. Compassion, like love, anger, jealousy and so forth, is a basic human response which has been around for a long time, but if every song on those topics were labelled
'traditional' the word would have lost all meaning.

I've noticed that this whole argument is being spoofed on another thread, so will shut up now. Except to respond to Jim:

"Sorry to have missed you in London last week Brian; we were there for a few days and saw your name in 'Time Out' - for the day before we arrived."

That would be Sharp's Folk Club in the basement of Cecil's Folly that you just missed. Leaving aside my efforts, I think you'd have enjoyed the range of floor performers there, including a couple of excellent younger singers who sang unaccompanied. Try it next time you're in town.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 07:34 AM

Don,
I think there's a not very subtle difference between vigourous debate that we all participate in a lot of the time (me certainly, SO'P, and many more) and vaccuuous personal abuse that has nothing to do with anyything were debating - "Good thing we all didn't swan off to Ireland," - "pontificating and patronising about your superior knowledge of folk clubs" and "a country you don't even live in" isn't a bad example of the latter - and all in one posting too. Your last few postings have been little more than torrents of personal abuse aimed at the fact that somebody should challenge your opinions.
You obviously are out for a slanging match - a little busy at the moment - perhaps you wouldn't mind making an appointment with my secretary!!!
By the way - the clubs of the 70s went into the bad times exactly because they DID bend with the prevailing winds - read the magazines like Folk Review and Folk - it's all down in black and white.
Jim Carroll
PS "those of us who work for nothing..."
Can't speak for you - we all work for nothing; only some of us don't make a thing of it.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:06 AM

Jim, any chance you could find time in your busy schedule to respond to my post of 02 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM, preferably without resorting to expressions such as "crass", "dumbing down","promoting crap standards"...

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Bert
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:19 AM

When you go back in your Tardis Crow Sister, please write some good songs and not a load of dreary old ballads!!! :-)

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 08:40 AM

Don't know what's new to be said, but am happy to oblige Bryan.

"I didn't say you did. I said that what those people said was not important but that what you said was."
You appeared to be lumping me in under having left the clubs thirty years ago because.....
If I got that wrong I retract it.
"And will you please stop blaming me and all other current folk club organisers for the things that went wrong back in the seventies and eighties when YOU were a folk club organiser."
I'm not 'blaming' anybody; I'm attempting to assess the situation as it prevails now and suggest what to do about it should anything be needed.
We held out for policy clubs with basic standards back then - other clubs demurred and, from current discussions, won out (with exceptions). Hence the present situation.
I have NEVER AT ANY TIME said their are no good clubs - I question whether there are enough of them to continue to present folk song so that future generations can continue to enjoy it as we did.
Now perhaps you can tell me how making 'wanting to sing' a basic requirement for public performance is adopting 'standards for a club.
There - all been said before and no doubt will be again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM

Well Jim, that says quite a lot about you doesn't it?

You manage to dismiss what was posted of your offensive comment as "vigorous debate" while maintaining that anything I say is "agressively offensive" and "looking for a slanging match". The "law According to Saint Jim the Infallible".

If the following is vigorous debate by your standards, then those standards are sadly out of kilter:-

""The third one might just still be going - we've got the details somewhere if you want to try for a booking, it gave the impression of being the sort of place that would put up with any old crap."" Jim Carroll to me.

""What utter crap; you really do go from idiocy to idiocy SO'P.
So far you have given nothing but bullshit and doublespeak verbiage.
All you've shown over and over again is your ignorance and indifference. You are a pratt - and a supercilious one - old man."" Jim Carroll to S O'P

""In the mid seventies things started to change and by the eighties it became virtually impossible to be guaranteed a night of folk or folk related songs, the clubs had become a platform for navel-gazing introspective mumbling their way through stuff that was neither fish nor fowl;""

""The scene hadn't yet become the refuge for failed, fifteenth-rate pop performers and would be Sinatra wannabes, that it has since become, but that didn't take too long to happen."" Jim Carrolls' take on those of us who work for nothing to perpetuate his, as well as our favourite music, namely folk music.""

I think most would agree with me, that these constitute agressively offensive comment, but you say that they are vigorous debate, in which case nothing I have said falls outside of your own parameters.

Try taking your own advice. "Don't want shit. Don't throw it!"

Does anybody other than Jim Carroll disagree?

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:44 AM

"Does anybody other than Jim Carroll disagree?"
Or agree maybe?
A bit cowardly to try to involve others in our personal slanging match - don't you think?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:40 PM

""A bit cowardly to try to involve others in our personal slanging match - don't you think?
Jim Carroll""

Involve others?

I refer you to the three posts of yours which I reproduced, in which you slagged off S O'P and myself by name, and just about every current folk club organiser indirectly, plus all of those club performers who don't measure up to your required standards.

I will admit it takes sublime self confidence (arrogance), and monumental ego, to accuse anyone of cowardice for doing what you, yourself, have done many times over.

You are the most judgemental poster on this forum, bar none, and take such a lofty tone toward any who disagree with you, that it makes me wonder "When did God die, and hand over to you?"

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:53 PM

I find it quite unprecidented to rabble rouse and call for support against another member on a public forum. I have never experienced it before - it was this I found both cowardly and despicable.
My argument is with you - nobody else. If you haven't got the bottle to fight your own battles don't get involved.
I have had numerous arguments on this forum throughout the time I have been a member, some of them heated, but they all come with personal respect for the other person's work and their point of view, even if I have not agreed with it.
You wrote "Does anybody other than Jim Carroll disagree?" - as I said, rabble rousing.
BACK OFF
Jim Carropll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:35 PM

I know Don w t,personally,he has been a good folk club organiser,I have played his clubs several times and the standard of performance has always been reasonably high.
he is one of the good folk club organisers,most of them are,Mansfield is one of a tiny minority.
Jim,I have the utmost respect for your collecting work,but you do seem to be judging folk clubs on on or two bad experiences,yes they are there: the MANSFIELDS that treat professional performers like dirt, or the badly organised with atrocious singers but they are a tiny minority.and it is insulting to people like the Snail and Don,to be lumped in with the MANSFIELDS.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 03:49 PM

Cap'n _ I have no idea who or what the MANSFIELDS are; my opinions are based on personal experience over the last thirty years where , I believe, there has been a decline, and on arguments and discussions on this forum.
As good as Don's club is, his attitude over the last few postings has been one of harrying and bullying and, as I said, his rabble-rousing attempts to involve other people as a tactic of silencing opposition are, as far as I can remember, quite unprecedented.
I have no problem with healthy, passionate debate - I have had it with you, Brian Creer, Sean Sweeney, and many others, but it has always been with, I believe, mutual respect for the other person's work and opinions, if not agreement. I don't need to be told by anybody that my opinion on the UK folk scene doesn't count because I have "swanned off to live in Ireland" (as you have, by the way). I find little to respect here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 05:51 PM

""I have had numerous arguments on this forum throughout the time I have been a member, some of them heated, but they all come with personal respect for the other person's work and their point of view, even if I have not agreed with it.""

Your nonsense gets both funnier and sillier by the minute.

Point me to one instance of you showing the slightest respect for me, or my work, or indeed anything I have ever said on this forum.

As to respect for my point of view, you are a liar!

End of!
Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 04:39 AM

my views are based on personal experience,and with respect I have probably spent much more time in many more folk clubs than you have,it comesw with being a professional folk musician ,you spend a lot of time in folk clubs.
Mansfield Folk club is a poorly run, unprofessional folk club,that cancelled a gig of mine at six months notice,the reason given: too many squeezeboxers in a period of six weeks,they did not have the courtesy to either reimburse part of my fee or offer an alternative date, the previous organiser has notified me that there was sufficient money in the kitty for all guests that she had booked.
the other squeezeboxer[2 in six weeks] was Steve Turner[who lives locally to Mansfield].
most considerate organisers would cancel the local person[rather than the person travelling from another country] and then offer them a subsequent date.
my advice to other guest artists is avoid Mansfield folk club

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:35 AM

The usual sturm und drang generator at the centre of things I see. You're not a very happy man Jim, are you?

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:29 AM

"I have probably spent much more time in many more folk clubs than you have"
Have you?
"You're not a very happy man Jim, are you? "
Wonder why you say that G - can't please all of the people all of the time?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:40 AM

yes Jim,I reckon I have, most professional folk musicians spend more time in folk clubs than other people.
I am aware that you have been involved in running folk clubs,so have I.
yes,I live in Ireland,but I return more regularly than you[this is based on infomation you have supplied yourself on this forum about how often you return] to play in clubs.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:55 AM

Dick,
Have no intention of starting this up again at present - still busy I'm afraid.
G.
I meant to add my thanks to pevious - it gives me some sort of comfort that what I thought a somewhat unpleasant and unnecessary incident gives you some sort of pleasure and satisfaction.
Best,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 07:52 AM

Self inflicted injuries are often amusing. Thanks for the entertainment value.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 08:36 AM

Though tempers might fray from time time I never once have lost respect for anyone around here, least of all JC whose wisdom, learning and achievements in the field of Traditional Culture is, as I say, exemplary. Sure we knock about a bit, get bruised, retreat, lick our wounds, but underlying it all is a willingness to go back into the merry fray, communicate & by doing so hopefully learn something - not react with the sort of mindless fury we're seeing here, and most certainly not by raising up a mob to justify such indignations, much less joining one.

For my part in the present witch hunt - I do not expect to see anything JC has said to me on open forum used out of context by anyone as evidence in their divisive little schemes. We're here to talk and rage about music, not about each other - that's what PMs are for.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:08 AM

Jim Carroll

Don't know what's new to be said, but am happy to oblige Bryan.

Retracting the accusation that I was deliberately misrepresenting you is a good start. I was drawing a comparison between those people, whose opinion doesn't matter, and you, whose opinion does matter.

I'm not 'blaming' anybody;

"crass"? "dumbing down"? "promoting crap standards"? Feels like blame if you are on the receiving end.

I have NEVER AT ANY TIME said their are no good clubs

I can't recall you acknowledging that there were.

I question whether there are enough of them to continue to present folk song so that future generations can continue to enjoy it as we did.

Why do you brush aside the evidence of me, Dick Miles, Brian Peters and many others while giving so much credence to S O'P's discredited statements and picking on every tiny scrap of evidence that supports your case?

Now perhaps you can tell me how making 'wanting to sing' a basic requirement for public performance is adopting 'standards for a club.

OK, in the light of your " mutual respect for the other person's work and opinions", here goes.

I, like Ewan MacColl, believe that anyone who wants to sing wants to sing well. Further to that, I believe that anyone who wants to sing well knows that it isn't simply a matter of getting up and doing it but it requires work and practice. They will do that of their own volition not because someone like me is standing over them telling them to do so. My experience bears this out.

At the Lewes Saturday Folk Club, we have quite a large core of residents all of whom perform traditional or "in the tradition" songs and music. We all care about the quality of of our performances and work at achieving good standards. We have many regular floorsingers who share the same philosophy. Perhaps not all of them achieve it but nobody is unlistenable. Some surpass it.

We book guests that we consider to be the finest exponents of the sort of music we love.

That is the atmosphere that newcomers find. Some have suggested that we frighten away the bad singers; I hope we inspire them to be good singers.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:18 AM

""That is the atmosphere that newcomers find. Some have suggested that we frighten away the bad singers; I hope we inspire them to be good singers.""

Amen to that, Bryan, and if in so doing, we were not attacked for being the cause of everything that is wrong with folk music, that too would help.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 09:32 AM

The problem arises when some people identify so closely with the form that the personality and the music fuse together. Insult me (and I'll give you plenty of opportunity), and you insult folk music.
If someone is so certain of their ground they view every comment as a direct assault, there's only way way the thread can go and it isn't nicely.

Or perhaps they exist in a world so knockabout that insults are lingua franca and are to be ignored as 'just their little way'.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM

S O'P's discredited statements

Hardly discredited, TheSnail. Go back and read my statements of 25 Feb 10 - 09:35 AM & 25 Feb 10 - 02:03 PM - and be sure to follow the links. In my not-inconsiderable experience of the Folk Scene (and from everything done in the name of Folk from Mudcat Threads, Folk Clubs to Folk on 2 etc.) then I'd have to say that FFC are not alone in their anything-goes-in-the-name-of-folk policy. This is why I began the 1954 and All That thread - because on moving to the North West I found myself completely out of place in the local folk scene where traditional songs are the exception that proves a very definite rule. This is not a matter of judgement, not on my part, but one of personal taste & preference.

I was never much interested in The Revival anyway, which has engendered the anything-goes approach - but I do love a good Traditional Singaround - something which, in my experience, is becoming a very rare beast indeed. For more on this see my posts of 28 Feb 10 - 03:12 PM & 28 Feb 10 - 06:37 PM .

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:20 PM

I, like Ewan MacColl, believe that anyone who wants to sing wants to sing well. Further to that, I believe that anyone who wants to sing well knows that it isn't simply a matter of getting up and doing it but it requires work and practice. They will do that of their own volition not because someone like me is standing over them telling them to do so. My experience bears this out.

Maybe I've just been unlucky - or maybe it's a North West thing, as SO'P suggested - but my experience is very different. I've seen - and heard - lots of people who hadn't put in the necessary work and practice before singing in public, whether because they thought they didn't need it, because they wanted to share their new song with the world or just because they wanted to perform and didn't think we'd mind. And mostly, of course, the audience genuinely doesn't mind - I can't remember ever hearing anyone leave a folk club stage without applause. That's called positive reinforcement, and it's heady stuff if it's not accompanied by a large dose of "here's what you could be doing".

At the Lewes Saturday Folk Club, we have quite a large core of residents all of whom perform traditional or "in the tradition" songs and music. We all care about the quality of our performances and work at achieving good standards. We have many regular floorsingers who share the same philosophy. Perhaps not all of them achieve it but nobody is unlistenable. Some surpass it.

That's the key, of course - peer pressure. Build it trad and the traddies will come.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 04:40 PM

"Self inflicted injuries are often amusing."
Now do I want to continue being around people who find the discomfiture of others, self inflicted or otherwise - amusing especially after he has already told us he think we are a shower of c- what was the word G?
Probably not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: glueman
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 04:48 PM

You must do JC to keep prodding people with sticks then insisting you're the one who's just been poked.
It's a neat trick if you can pull it off of course.

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:40 PM

Please can we have less insults flying to and fro? They're an infuriating distraction for those of us who would like to follow the serious discussion. And those indulging in them might bear in mind that challenging one's opponent's credibility (rather than only challenging their opinions) tends to reduce one's own credibility.

Returning to the serious discussion:
TheSnail said
> I, like Ewan MacColl, believe that anyone who wants to sing wants to sing well.

Pip Radish has already challenged that, and so do I. Many of us want to sing well, but some of us may not be as good as we think we are and some give every sign of not caring at all. The deplorable cliché "Good enough for folk" is still to be heard from time to time. Out-of-tune instruments are to be heard all too often.

I'm with Jim and Crow Sister in preferring the old stuff, by and large, and wishing that we could all agree about what name to call it by that will distinguish it from other kinds. That doesn't mean that we're trying to "control what people are allowed to enjoy". Why should we want to do that? How could we, even if we did want to?

We would like to introduce new people to the stuff that we like, on the reasonable assumption that some of them will also come to like it. Don's "what we are doing is giving present day audiences enough of what they want to get their bums on seats, and then including as much of what we, and you, want as they will accept, and pay to hear" seems a reasonable approach to that, provided nobody is misled about what's what.

Richard

Subject: RE: Is traditional song finished?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:58 PM

Richard, once again the voice of common sense.
Without wishing to go over the old ground again and in reference to your 'old stuff, by and large', when the term 'folk' became too wide most non-intellectuals like me started using 'traditional folk' or even 'tradfolk' for the stuff we preferred, and most of us understood what that meant without having to define every last syllable and note.








Oh and 300.