Singing National Anthems at sports event

Subject: Singing National Anthems at sports events
From: GUEST,Albamist
Date: 10 May 01 - 03:08 PM

Little Hawks response in the thread "What Songs Make you Laugh Out Loud" was the singing of the US anthem at hockey games, when both teams are full of Canadians, Swedes and Russians (and a smattering of Finns and Czechs) and of course the occasional American thrown in for good measure. As a Scot now living in Canada, this and other examples, where anthems are sung at events that have no national significance has always struck me as odd. It reminds me of when I lived in Zambia and would go to see a movie, a bell would ring just before the national anthem was played, and at that point you had to stop everything and stand perfectly still even if you were in the parking lot. (the bell would also ring outside) failure to do so could result in arrest for showing disrespect to the anthem. How did this practice originate,does it only happen in "New" countries, is it a sign of some kind of national insecurity? Opinions please Albamist

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: mousethief
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:08 PM

I think they used to play the national anthem a lot more than they do nowadays. I think the baseball or hockey game thing is a holdover from when they would play it for many other public events as well.

Alex

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:11 PM

The English never get to sing the national anthem at sporting events as we don't have one. Which is a shame.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: mousethief
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:13 PM

Is England a nation? Or is that a topic for a different thread?

Alex

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: The Walrus
Date: 10 May 01 - 04:27 PM

Mousethief,

Of course England is a nation, otherwise the rest of the world would have no one to blame all their historical problems on .

Walrus

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST,emily b
Date: 10 May 01 - 07:08 PM

I think they still use the National Anthem in the states, at least here in Texas as a way to haul out any dignitary or newscaster that thinks he/she can sing. What an audience these people have. Who else can say they've sung to 40,000 people?

I heard an amazing rendition of the Star Spangled Banner by one such singer. He started in a key that was just too high and the song stretches the top range. About 3 lines into it, he smoothly switched keys. I'm not sure if he knew what he was doing or not. I doubt that most people even noticed and his high notes came out just fine.

As to a real answer, I don't know and until this moment it never occurred to me to wonder why. Hmm! Now you've got me thinking.

Emily

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Snuffy
Date: 10 May 01 - 07:12 PM

We English don't need a national anthem. We're not insecure - we know who we are. Loudly proclaiming who you are and what you stand for is for all those other "lesser breeds without the law" who wish they were as good as us. If they say it loud enough and often enough, one day they'll maybe even believe it. Look at our postage stamps, for instance. ***BG***

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: kendall
Date: 10 May 01 - 07:30 PM

I see the singing of a national anthem as another display of nationalism. I am opposed to nationalism. It starts wars.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 01 - 07:55 PM

"We know who we are" - I'm not too sure that's actually true of the English. Does the first "we" mean the same as the second "we" in that sentence?

The idea of having some solo singer do a national anthem just strikes me as absurd and undignified. Have a band play the tune, and if the players and the crowd know it, they can sing along. Or not.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: John Hindsill
Date: 10 May 01 - 08:11 PM

If they didn't sing the National Anthem at sporting events, how would they know when to PLAY BALL!!!? - ;>)

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST
Date: 10 May 01 - 11:16 PM

They wouldn't. Not a bad idea!

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 May 01 - 11:37 PM

I've always felt a bit uneasy about the national anthem sung at events - I always feel like I'm being hoodwinked into a tacit support of militarism. What's worse is when they want me to sing the anthem because I'm known as "that guy that sings stuff" - sometimes I take advantage of the situation and sing "America the Beautiful," which I like much better.
Who are these people who require us to sing the national anthem, anyhow? Sounds a lot like propaganda to me...
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST,geordie
Date: 10 May 01 - 11:59 PM

Nationalism dosen't start wars..stupidy does and greed allows them to continue.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: DougR
Date: 11 May 01 - 12:12 AM

Oh Jeeze. What a scintillating topic. DougR

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Robby
Date: 11 May 01 - 10:40 AM

Albamist,
If you are really interested in how the singing of the US National Anthem at sporting events got started, the answer pertains to WWI and baseball. According, to Ken Burns' PBS documentary on baseball, it was at a baseball game in Chicago, during WWI, that a band played The Star Spangled Banner during the seventh inning stretch, for a show of patriotism and support of the boys in France. According to the documentary, this had such an affect on the fans in attendance, that the Anthem began to be played at every baseball game. Now it's pretty much traditional in all sports.
BTW, the playing/singing of the Anthem is not required at any sporting event. In fact, during the Philadelphia Flyers Stanley Cup victories, their home games began with the playing/singing of God Bless America, by the late Kate Smith.
Robby

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 11 May 01 - 10:51 AM

When it used to be played in UK cinemas the first note would lead to a stampede for the exits!
Most live theatres used to play it before the play to avoid that and everyone would try to stand up in the cramped rows, dropping coats and programmes that you'd just got sorted out and when you sat down again you had to fight for the armrests all over again.
RtS

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Matt_R
Date: 11 May 01 - 11:08 AM

England has no national anthem? What about:

It's coming home, it's coming home
It's coming, football's coming home
It's coming home, it's coming home
It's coming, football's coming home

Everyone seems to know the score
They've seen it all before
They just know
They're so sure
That England's going to throw it away
Going to blow it away
But I know they can play
Cos I remember

Three Lions on a shirt
Jules Rimet still gleaming
Thirty years of hurt
Never stopped me dreaming

So many jokes, so many sneers
But all those oh-so-nears
Wear you down
Through the years
But I still see that tackle by Moore
And when Lineker scored
Bobby belting the ball
And Nobby dancing

Three Lions on a shirt
Jules Rimet still gleaming
Thirty years of hurt
Never stopped me dreaming

I know that was then
But it could be again...

It's coming home, it's coming home
It's coming, football's coming home
It's coming home, it's coming home
It's coming, football's coming home

Three Lions on a shirt
Jules Rimet still gleaming
Thirty years of hurt
Never stopped me dreaming

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From:
Date: 11 May 01 - 02:37 PM

I would even go to a sporting event, and I am just not a sports fan, to hear the Welsh sing their anthem.

mg

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 May 01 - 03:33 PM

Like John, I always thought the last two words of the SSB were "PLAY BALL."

I think the whole thing is dumb.......Ken Burns is correct in the origin of the 7th inning stretch, but why they started playing it before EVERY damned sporting event is beyond me.

On the plus side, it is good for laughs. Roseanne's shennanigans not withstanding, a lot of the singers are awful and it's really a riot when some actually forget the words.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 May 01 - 04:04 PM

I would have thought Swing Low was nearer a NATIONAL anthem than Three Lions

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: mousethief
Date: 11 May 01 - 04:36 PM

Funny, when the national anthem is played (or sung) at the baseball game, I never think of militarism or nationalism. I think of the people singing, and how their voices sound, and of veterans who have risked their lives so I can lounge around and go to baseball games instead of being dictated to by goons in jack-boots, and about the cub scouts (or whoever) holding the flags and whether or not they got into the ballgame free or had to buy tickets too. Also I remember the time that the SSB was sung by the Kingsmen, and it sounded absolutely horrible.

But I never want to go out and take over 3rd world nations or denigrate people from other countries. Maybe what you see depends a lot on where you've been and not just where you are.

Alex

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 01 - 05:06 PM

I many national anthems are tremendous stuff. We shouldn't be too po-faced about this kind of thing. People don't fight wars because of national anthems - if all the national anthems were junked we wouldn't gain a thing, and we'd lose a lot of enjoyment.

During the Football World Cup (real football that is) the ant hens were the best part of some games. The Italians versus the Romanians was the best combination I reckon. Especially the Romanian, which I think was worth a goal up.Check them, and others at this site which gives the national anthems of pretty well all the countries in the planet, with midis, words in English and whatever language they speak in the countries concerned, and national flags.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 May 01 - 05:42 PM

I must say that I always enjoy hearing the anthems played when you see television coverage of "official state visits"--Apparently, at least here in the US, when you travel on the "Official State Visit" it means that you get your national Anthem, plus a dinner at the White House on the good china--Anyway, I have always loved the Russian Anthem--also loved the way that it it woven into the Pet Shop Boys cover of the Village People song, "Go West"--

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: JulieF
Date: 11 May 01 - 05:52 PM

I have no problems with National anthems being played when there are two different countries involved. ( that's including England and Scotland etc) but why do you need to play it when you are not playing at National Level ?

Julie

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: mousethief
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:02 PM

JulieF,

Tradition!

Alex

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:06 PM

Could it sometimes be a reflection of the tendency in America to refer to domestic national championships as "The World Series"?

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 May 01 - 01:41 AM

Interestingly, though many of the Americans in the group know this, McG, perhaps you will not--when the first baseball team ever established(in Hoboken,NJ) played its first game,which was the first official baseball game, ever it apparently lost--

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:28 PM

Dear M of Harlow;

The world series has twice been won the last decade by a team from outside of the US,,,,,,,Toronto

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Kim C
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:34 PM

what about God Save the Queen?

I don't really have an opinion on this. But I did happen to catch Billy Ray Cyrus sing the national anthem on TV just before a NASCAR race, and I have to admit, it was really, really good. It's a hard song to sing and few people can pull it off with much finesse.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 16 May 01 - 03:16 AM

Kim C 'Well may you sing,"God Save the Queen" but will you ever sing "God Save the King"?

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Grab
Date: 16 May 01 - 11:49 AM

Chris, we certainly will when Elizabeth dies and Charles (or William) takes over as King.

As Joe says about the US national anthem, "God save the queen/king" may be the national anthem, but "Swing low sweet chariot" is a much better song. IIRC it started as the "unofficial anthem" for English rugby fans (rugby songs coming from a higher evolutionary level than football chants of "the referee's a wanker" and "you're crap and you know you are" ;-) but it seems to have spread into football too. (Football as in soccer, BTW)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 16 May 01 - 11:53 AM

God save the queen is a British national anthem and not an English one. The Welsh and the Irish have their own and the Scots have adopted "Flower of Scotland as theirs" I really don't think the English have one

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Edmund
Date: 16 May 01 - 12:12 PM

I have never believed that the National Anthem is sung at sporting events and the like to honor our nation. I believe it is part of the promotional package employed by the promoters of the event to clothe their event with a status beyond its real significance. I think it cheapens the Anthem to be so exploited.

Yes, and it drives me wild to see auto dealers display the largest flag they can buy in a cynical gesture at patriotism.
..........Edmund

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Kim C
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:13 PM

I don't sing either one because I'm not British. So now will someone please explain the difference between British and English? If you're British, aren't you English? I never considered the Welsh, Scots, or Irish to be English because they haven't always spoken English. But I don't know.

Not trying to stir any controversy, just an ignorant unfrozen caveman who needs to be enlightened.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:24 PM

Britain is(was) an Empire, England is a country.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: mousethief
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:29 PM

The United Kingdom is a country. England is an idea.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 16 May 01 - 01:32 PM

Singing an anthem prior to a sporting event is a statement about community and should be a civilizing activity. It should serve as a statement that, although we are adversaries on the field, we hold certain things in common. It should be a statement that says we will abide by the rules and respect the outcome, regardless of how it falls.

It is a terrible shame that the SSB is seen as a statement of nationalism in its most negative sense - self-congratulatory, ethno-centric, avericious, etc. Nationalism should not have to be equated with militarism. We should be able to acknowledge and celebrate what we have in common without demeaning or diminishing those who are not us.

Unfortunately, for a relatively young country we have a lot of history to live down. Fortunately, most of us are not afraid to see our failures cited in the same history books with our great achievements.

"Oh say, does that Star Spangled Banner yet wave o'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?" - It is a hard song to sing; it's even harder to live up to.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST,Albamist
Date: 16 May 01 - 03:18 PM

Robby has stated that according to Ken Burns PBS documentary, the US anthem was played during the seventh inning "stretch" (for non baseball types; this is a point in the game where the game is stopped for a time to give the fans, who may have been sitting for hours, an opportunity to get up and stretch their legs. It also provides an opportunity for the employees of the home team to remove any corpses left sitting in the seats, you know those fans that died of boredom in the previous six innings) I have nothing against anthems and have no problem with them being played at sporting events of an INTERnational nature. It just seems innapropriate to play them at other times. Albamist

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST,Albamist
Date: 16 May 01 - 03:44 PM

Kim C People who hold "British" passports are in fact citizens of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. They may have been born in Scotland, Wales,England or Northern Ireland (Ulster) these being the countries and province that constitute the geographic entity known as The British Isles. The United Kingdom name originates from when the lineage to the English crown had expired, the English parliament proposed to king James V1 of Scotland that the two kingdoms be joined, James jumped at the chance and became the James I of the new enlarged country, at which point Scotlands growth as a nation went into decline. There is a line in the third or fourth verse of God save the Queen which refers to crushing rebellious Scots (needless to say this line is seldom if ever sang these days) but it has never made the song popular with any nationalistic Scots. I bet there is no other national anthem worldwide that refers to crushing one part of its nation, this should be a seperate thread Albamist

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Kim C
Date: 16 May 01 - 04:33 PM

Thanks Albamist. That sort of makes sense... I may have to digest it a little longer.

I don't know about national anthems, but there was a little fuss recently about "Maryland My Maryland" and the line about "the despot's heel is on thy shore."

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Lyndi-loo
Date: 17 May 01 - 04:41 AM

Yes, you could say that James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne because his grandmother (greatgradmother?) was Henry VIII's sister. This was the union of the crowns. The union of the parliaments did not occur until 1707 and Ireland joined the United Kingdom in 1800. Wales had signed the treaties of union with England way back in 1528 and 1532 and adopted the English legal system which Scotland and Ireland never did. So English and British ARe NOT the same thing although it's a common mistake made by non-brits. Also a common mistake made by English sports commentators which really pisses the non-English Brits off. If you were to ask a Scot, and Irishperson and a Welshperson what their nationalality was chances are they would say Scots, Irish or Welsh in preference to British. the English would tend to say British rather than English although that is changing since there appears to be a new English nationalism emerging as a result of the new Scottish parliament and Welsh assembly. Sorry to ramble on a bit, but it's a very quiet morning at work!

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Gervase
Date: 17 May 01 - 06:57 AM

Before we Brits knock the Yanks for the World Series, what other country gets to enter four teams for the World Cup qualifiers?
And why is it that every Scot I know supports two teams - Scotland and whoever's playing England?! And, off-topic entirely, why is there no football equivalent of the British Lions, with players from each of the home nations?
In fact, you don't have to tell me the answer to that last one - it probably comes down to money and the reluctance of the major teams to let their players off to play for other outfits.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 May 01 - 07:26 AM

what other country gets to enter four teams for the World Cup qualifiers?

Yugoslavia

Wolfgang (not quite serious)

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 17 May 01 - 08:13 AM

Like RtS, I remember them playing the anthem at the end of movies. People would try and leave before the credits. It seemed funny to me that if they weren't fast enough they would stop and stand once it started. Traditions! That and the lady selling icecream between the B-movie and the main one.

Rana (who suddenly has an urge for a choc-ice)

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Kim C
Date: 17 May 01 - 11:38 AM

Okay. I get it now. :-)

By the way, I heard an interview on the radio this morning with Bill Mumy, who as a child played Will Robinson on Lost in Space. He also apparently has a pretty good music thing going on in California. Anyway he said he was going to sing the national anthem at an Angels game.

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: mousethief
Date: 17 May 01 - 11:41 AM

Too bad he couldn't find a gig at a baseball game, instead.

Alex (running, ducking and grinning)

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 17 May 01 - 10:39 PM

Going back to an earlier comment - McGrath, to be fair, I believe the World Series in baseball was named after a newspaper - American baseball fans can correct me if wrong.

Rana

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: mousethief
Date: 18 May 01 - 11:02 AM

Actually (unfortunately) "World Series" is quite accurate. Name me any team in any other country that could beat the winner of MLB's championship. Ain't none; all their best players have moved to the US & are playing for MLB teams.

Alex

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: Kim C
Date: 18 May 01 - 11:06 AM

Cuba?

Subject: RE: Singing National Anthems at sports event
From: mousethief
Date: 18 May 01 - 11:10 AM

Okay, so there are countries with closed borders whose baseball players aren't ALLOWED to go to the United States. I know that the Cuban national team played against the Bosox this spring or last fall (time between baseball seasons doesn't really exist) -- who won? I don't remember hearing.

Alex